Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3

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abomwell

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #60 on: 20 Dec 2021, 03:34 pm »
Sat about 11 feet back from the speakers and 4 feet from the rear wall.   

For treatment I have massive, 4" thick custom made panels (made by me), in addition to thick foam padding underneath shag carpet on the floor.  Just to give an idea, if you order a panel from a regular acoustic panel manufacturer, theirs are usual 2 inches thick, 12 inches wide and 24 inches long.  Mine are 4 inches thick, and the smallest one is 36 inches wide and 48 inches long.  Also, most panels from manufacturers use some type of fiberglass, which has around a p13 rating, while I found (and used) recycled denim material which is p19.  So it's denser and absorbs more.

To be frank, even with the treatments, the room is still 'slightly' too lively for my tastes.  But i'm very limited about where I can put additional treatments due to aesthetic concerns.  Someday I might build a bass corner trap for the right front corner as I still have a 50hz bass node that would be helpful for.  Otherwise, I am pretty happy with the room, especially compared with where it started (bare concrete walls and uncovered wood floors). 

If you want to see my design, a link is below, I took pictures and created a build thread when I built out a 2nd set of panels for my HT room.  The only difference is they were all black and used regular fiberglass.  But the core design idea was the same:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175422.0

Thanks, Tyson. Very impressive what you've built! I also sit 4' from the rear wall and have a tapestry over 2" rigid fiberglass there. :popcorn: That wall is a likely source of comb filtering. You've inspired me to thicken the area under the tapestry to 4".

Thanks!
Al

Mr. Big

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #61 on: 20 Dec 2021, 06:43 pm »

Daryl Zero

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #62 on: 20 Dec 2021, 08:30 pm »
https://www.gikacoustics.com/product-category/bass-traps/

Be done with it at a fair price.

That looks like a great resource. Thanks.

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #63 on: 22 Dec 2021, 06:52 am »
Background

Positioning

The X3’s will sound good no matter where you put them.  They have a wonderfully even off-axis power response.  I’ve even run them very close to the front wall (about 18 inches) and they sounded fine. 

But what about optimal position, you ask?  Well, in my room it was about 5 feet out into the room, a bit closer together than I’ve run most of my other speakers, and pointed straight ahead.  This is different than my usual setup.  Usually I have the speakers farther apart and then toed in to that the tweeters point at my shoulders.  And the X3’s sounded fine like that in my space too.  But on a lark I tried them pointed strait out and the soundstage really expanded in my room.  Then I tried them a bit closer together (again, on a lark) and the soundstage ‘fill’ improved quite a bit in my space.  I suspect a lot of this is a result of my VERY imperfect room.  If I had a room with regular dimensions and even loading (and no giant dining room table between them), my old way of position might still be best.  But really, no matter WHERE you put them, they always sounded great.  These are the least fussy speakers I've owned in a while. 

OB’s and Bass

OK, quick lesson on why OB speakers RULE in the real world.  If you have a dedicate room with excellent dimensions and the ability to do aggressive treatments (including giant bass traps), then an OB speaker is probably not necessary.  I’ve heard several systems where box speakers absolutely crush it in a dedicated room like that.  But my space is NOT a perfect space like that.  Haha, not even close!  And I found out with my last speakers, even very very good box speakers will struggle in a space like mine.

Why?  Mostly it’s due to uneven room loading, particularly in the BASS.  If you don’t have a truly full range speaker, then it’s not quite as bad.  But if you want full range sound, then OB is by far the best solution, IME.  Because a box speaker produces bass like it’s a pulsing sphere.  Which means that it creates lumpy room modes in all 3 dimensions.  And it pressurizes the room in an unpleasant way.  OB speakers (because they are dipole speakers) fire acoustic energy forward (in phase) and backward (out of phase) which results in bass cancellation to the sides.  In a real world (imperfect) room like mine, this is a BLESSING.  It not only removes the unpleasant bass pressurization, it also removes one of the major room modes by never exciting it in the first place.  Very elegant solution to a normally intractable problem!

Excellent review!  After reading your review, I repositioned my X5s further outside of my listening position, but shy of firing straight ahead.  I was shocked at the sonic improvement with this positioning.  I’ve always lingered with my X5s aiming the AMT either just outside of my ears or just outside of my shoulders.  I tried toeing them out further in the past, but not this much. 

Also, I was wondering how big of a difference is the low frequency with the X3 vs. X5?  Have you or anyone in this forum compared the X3 vs. X5 bass frequency differences?  I feel like I should have bought the X3 as I’m assuming the 15” subwoofer produces more bass impact over my X5s?  Just curious….

Also, I appreciated the details on the myriad of amps used with your X3s.  I’m curious how Luxman SS gear would sound with Spatials?  In fact, I’d love to audition; Luxman, Audio Research, Carver, Holo Audio Serene preamp, and Zesto.  If anyone has heard any of these components with their Spatials, please share your impressions.  I have PrimaLuna EVO 400 series and I auditioned an LTA preamp and amp.  I like them both, but I think the LTA edged out the PrimaLuna with the details.  I’m still holding tight with PrimaLuna at the moment and waiting on a few things to decide on some component swaps.

Thanks for sharing!

Tyson

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #64 on: 22 Dec 2021, 06:16 pm »
Excellent review!  After reading your review, I repositioned my X5s further outside of my listening position, but shy of firing straight ahead.  I was shocked at the sonic improvement with this positioning.  I’ve always lingered with my X5s aiming the AMT either just outside of my ears or just outside of my shoulders.  I tried toeing them out further in the past, but not this much. 

Also, I was wondering how big of a difference is the low frequency with the X3 vs. X5?  Have you or anyone in this forum compared the X3 vs. X5 bass frequency differences?  I feel like I should have bought the X3 as I’m assuming the 15” subwoofer produces more bass impact over my X5s?  Just curious….

Also, I appreciated the details on the myriad of amps used with your X3s.  I’m curious how Luxman SS gear would sound with Spatials?  In fact, I’d love to audition; Luxman, Audio Research, Carver, Holo Audio Serene preamp, and Zesto.  If anyone has heard any of these components with their Spatials, please share your impressions.  I have PrimaLuna EVO 400 series and I auditioned an LTA preamp and amp.  I like them both, but I think the LTA edged out the PrimaLuna with the details.  I’m still holding tight with PrimaLuna at the moment and waiting on a few things to decide on some component swaps.

Thanks for sharing!

Re: the X3 and X5 for bass.  I've not heard both so take this with a grain of salt.  But looking at the 12" driver in the X5 and the 15" driver in the X3, I predict they will have about the same bass extension and power down low.  Why?  Because looking at the surround of the 12" driver it's pretty clear that it has more excursion possible than the 15.  So even though the 15 inch driver is bigger, the 12" driver moves farther, front to back.  And looking at the specs on Spatial's website seem to bear this out. 

decooney

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #65 on: 22 Dec 2021, 06:36 pm »
...  I have PrimaLuna EVO 400 series and I auditioned an LTA preamp and amp.  I like them both, but I think the LTA edged out the PrimaLuna with the details.  I’m still holding tight with PrimaLuna at the moment and waiting on a few things to decide on some component swaps....

DBT AUDIO,

What output tubes and small signal tubes are you running in your PrimaLuna EVO 400 tube amp now?

You mention "bass" and "detail" both. Lots of input & output tube options to explore with your amp.

Tangram

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #66 on: 22 Dec 2021, 06:41 pm »
Sat about 11 feet back from the speakers and 4 feet from the rear wall.   

For treatment I have massive, 4" thick custom made panels (made by me), in addition to thick foam padding underneath shag carpet on the floor.  Just to give an idea, if you order a panel from a regular acoustic panel manufacturer, theirs are usual 2 inches thick, 12 inches wide and 24 inches long.  Mine are 4 inches thick, and the smallest one is 36 inches wide and 48 inches long.  Also, most panels from manufacturers use some type of fiberglass, which has around a p13 rating, while I found (and used) recycled denim material which is p19.  So it's denser and absorbs more.

To be frank, even with the treatments, the room is still 'slightly' too lively for my tastes.  But i'm very limited about where I can put additional treatments due to aesthetic concerns.  Someday I might build a bass corner trap for the right front corner as I still have a 50hz bass node that would be helpful for.  Otherwise, I am pretty happy with the room, especially compared with where it started (bare concrete walls and uncovered wood floors). 

If you want to see my design, a link is below, I took pictures and created a build thread when I built out a 2nd set of panels for my HT room.  The only difference is they were all black and used regular fiberglass.  But the core design idea was the same:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175422.0

I was fighting a bass node with my M3 Sapphires. Room is well-treated but the reason I went to Maggies and then Spatials was because ported box speakers easily excited the room. Tough for me to do too much more treatment-wise. Speakers were as far out from the front wall as possible (57") and I was still getting that annoying hump that I couldn't unhear. On so many tracks my attention would zero in on the bass (acoustic and electric) line of the song and the vocals seemed recessed in the mix.

I decided to move the speakers a foot CLOSER to the front wall, since I was at the "what have I got to lose" stage of trouble-shooting. Boom, that did the trick. Sonic bliss. I was very surprised but I guess the position I had them before, even though it was well off the front wall, was less than optimal.

I've really appreciated your detailed commentary on your X3s. Very valuable insights.

Mr. Big

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #67 on: 22 Dec 2021, 07:31 pm »
Rooms are different. In the manul it does state set them up to your liking then move them back 6" and listen to see if the sound improves, same for 6" more forward and listen. I heard my Sapphires sound really good 30" from the front wall, I have mine 36" now and they image great sound well balanced and deep tight bottom end and good mid-bass which is critical to music reproduction.

rooze

Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #68 on: 22 Dec 2021, 09:20 pm »
I noticed my X3's are marked 4ohm yet the website says 8. Just wondering if you tube guys are running off the 4 or 8 ohm taps?



geerock

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #69 on: 22 Dec 2021, 09:53 pm »
I noticed my X3's are marked 4ohm yet the website says 8. Just wondering if you tube guys are running off the 4 or 8 ohm taps?


It's always been my understanding that they are 8 ohm.  As far as which tap to use?  I've had several incidents during my years in audio where I tried a different rated tap than the speaker was rated at and got a nice (to me) sound.

rooze

Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #70 on: 22 Dec 2021, 09:57 pm »
It's always been my understanding that they are 8 ohm.  As far as which tap to use?  I've had several incidents during my years in audio where I tried a different rated tap than the speaker was rated at and got a nice (to me) sound.
My understanding also. I'll switch to 4 later and see if it makes any difference. Just trying not to have to reinvent the wheel if people have already been down this path, and also account for the possibility that my pair have been incorrectly labeled 4 ohm.

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #71 on: 23 Dec 2021, 06:13 am »
Re: the X3 and X5 for bass.  I've not heard both so take this with a grain of salt.  But looking at the 12" driver in the X5 and the 15" driver in the X3, I predict they will have about the same bass extension and power down low.  Why?  Because looking at the surround of the 12" driver it's pretty clear that it has more excursion possible than the 15.  So even though the 15 inch driver is bigger, the 12" driver moves farther, front to back.  And looking at the specs on Spatial's website seem to bear this out.
Your assessment makes sense.  I was just curious because I assumed the 15" subwoofer would have more bass impact, otherwise, why offer a larger subwoofer?  Just a rhetorical statement. 

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #72 on: 23 Dec 2021, 06:28 am »
DBT AUDIO,

What output tubes and small signal tubes are you running in your PrimaLuna EVO 400 tube amp now?

You mention "bass" and "detail" both. Lots of input & output tube options to explore with your amp.
I currently have the factory PrimaLuna 12AU7 tubes for the input stage and I just installed a full set of re-issued Gold Lion KT66 tubes for the output stage.  They are still breaking in, so no impressions to offer at the moment.  I have a pair of NOS Brimar 12AU7 tubes placed in the middle two slots on the EVO 400 preamp and the rest of the preamp tubes are the factory PrimaLuna brand.  I like the Brimar tubes, but the vocals still did not sound as velvety as the LTA offerings.  I thought about trying some Mullards, but some forum reviews claim they roll off on the top end.  Only way to find out is to try them for myself.  My first venture into tube gear was a Conrad Johnson ET3 preamp paired with a Bryston 4BSST amp.  The Bryston amp did not help the CJ preamp with any sweetness that tubes tend to offer.  PrimaLuna is my second venture into tube gear as I never wanted to deal with the potential maintenance or tube rolling experiment, so I was comfortable with SS gear for years.  However, I do love how the X5s perform with tube gear and I would not be comfortable going back to SS gear with any Spatial speakers.

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #73 on: 23 Dec 2021, 06:38 am »
I noticed my X3's are marked 4ohm yet the website says 8. Just wondering if you tube guys are running off the 4 or 8 ohm taps?


I own the X5s and they are supposedly 8ohm speakers.  That must have been a typo that was meant for the M Series Sapphire models?  I switched from the 8ohm to the 4ohm speaker taps on my PrimaLuna amp and I clearly heard a difference for the good!  I never went back to the 8ohm taps.  The PrimaLuna user manual recommends trying the different speaker taps to see which one sounds the best.

decooney

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #74 on: 23 Dec 2021, 07:03 am »
I currently have the factory PrimaLuna 12AU7 tubes for the input stage and I just installed a full set of re-issued Gold Lion KT66 tubes for the output stage.  They are still breaking in, so no impressions to offer at the moment..

I see.  For some reason I was under the impression upscale worked with psvane for the factory input/output tubes in those later model evo amps.  72-100hrs+ can help and they will change some more if still burning them in.   

While I run different brand mono amps, I too tried the Brimars for the au7 spots, and the ones I tried were more rolled off than my own 1965 Mullard au7s from Blackburn plant and my 1970 mullard au7s are not so rolled off much either, soft, but not notably rolled off. Hmmm. My newer PSVANE 12AU7s and 12AT7s might actually be more rolled off than my mid 60s mullards and they did take at least 100hrs to open up. Maybe some more time on the factory tubes will help. You'd have to call upscale and ask when the upgrade occurred on those EVOs and the 400s (the ones with the switch if you don't have it), but if you want more clarity, "detail" and power, the larger KT120s or KT150s will give you that, may not be the sound you want if you prefer KT66 tone. And, may not have that "velvety" sound you are noting from the LTA amp. I run KT150s in my amps with either PSVANE or mid 60's NOS mullards in the input/driver spots. Ordered a quad of KT120s to go in reverse to retry some tests next week. I'm working to recapture some of that "velvety" tone myself exploring different combos. I realize its all circuit dependent, and yet some of these tubes do carry characteristics across some amplifiers more than others.  Best of luck.   

atmasphere

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #75 on: 23 Dec 2021, 07:50 pm »
I noticed my X3's are marked 4ohm yet the website says 8. Just wondering if you tube guys are running off the 4 or 8 ohm taps?


I would think its the 8 Ohm taps. We have a fair number of customers using our S-30 on that speaker, which is a small OTL that doesn't do well on 4 Ohms.

LewinskiH01

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #76 on: 24 Dec 2021, 08:24 pm »
Great review!

Re impedance, indeed it seems like a typo. The 12" seems to be an Eminence Deltalite 2512 that only comes in 8 ohm (per their website) and the Beyma is flat 5 ohm.

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #77 on: 25 Dec 2021, 09:04 pm »
I see.  For some reason I was under the impression upscale worked with psvane for the factory input/output tubes in those later model evo amps.  72-100hrs+ can help and they will change some more if still burning them in.   

While I run different brand mono amps, I too tried the Brimars for the au7 spots, and the ones I tried were more rolled off than my own 1965 Mullard au7s from Blackburn plant and my 1970 mullard au7s are not so rolled off much either, soft, but not notably rolled off. Hmmm. My newer PSVANE 12AU7s and 12AT7s might actually be more rolled off than my mid 60s mullards and they did take at least 100hrs to open up. Maybe some more time on the factory tubes will help. You'd have to call upscale and ask when the upgrade occurred on those EVOs and the 400s (the ones with the switch if you don't have it), but if you want more clarity, "detail" and power, the larger KT120s or KT150s will give you that, may not be the sound you want if you prefer KT66 tone. And, may not have that "velvety" sound you are noting from the LTA amp. I run KT150s in my amps with either PSVANE or mid 60's NOS mullards in the input/driver spots. Ordered a quad of KT120s to go in reverse to retry some tests next week. I'm working to recapture some of that "velvety" tone myself exploring different combos. I realize its all circuit dependent, and yet some of these tubes do carry characteristics across some amplifiers more than others.  Best of luck.   
I enjoy the tube sound, but I am very curious what SS preamp and power amp or integrated would rival tube gear?  I never wanted to get into the tube rolling.  I am interested in feedback from anyone who has heard or own Luxman SS with Spatial Audio X series.

hilde45

Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #78 on: 25 Dec 2021, 10:41 pm »
The OP mentioned the First Watt in the list of amps tried. Possibly helpful?

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Tyson's Review of the Spatial Audio X3
« Reply #79 on: 26 Dec 2021, 05:58 am »
The OP mentioned the First Watt in the list of amps tried. Possibly helpful?
The First Watt has been mentioned before by Spatial Audio owners, in addition to the OP, so it is helpful information, but I am zeroing in on Luxman at the moment.  Hoping to get feedback on Luxman with Spatials.  I’ve heard that they are smooth sounding like tubes.