[GeorgeAb]

Congrats on making it through that life change event and best to the next chapter.

Beautiful system, appreciated the well informed and thought out impressions of your experience with these systems. It takes experience and even miss steps to find out what ones audio goals are and to make choices that maximizes what you want and puts compromises in areas that are not as important, along with confidence in our own ears.  500 hours of burn in…. wow, you have some patience; it must have been pretty good before that to know you were moving in the right direction. Congratulations on getting it right for your environment and ears… well done. It’s a bit of work, but what a fun and worthwhile hobby. 

[geerock]

Have any X5 or X3 owners here landed on a good midway power TUBE amp(s) in the 40-60w range, say re-issue Genelex Gold Lyon KT77 or warmish PSVANE KT88 output tubes?

Referring to NOT running a flatwatt 2A3 or 45 SET amp, and NOT running a higher power solid state amp. Looking to hear why a good 60W pentode amp with warmish input/driver and output tubes will NOT work well with X5s, essentially.  I design/build other AMT custom speakers as a hobby, and might demo some X5s is why I'm asking. Thanks in advance for your replies.

Don Sachs himself runs X5's with his Valhalla 32 watt integrated along with a couple other people.  I read a review on the X5's with the Valhalla using Mullard NOS EL34's (the Valhalla can use several different power tubes up to and including KT77).  He said the combo was sublime.  And Clayton was sent a Valhalla and auditioned it with a couple different combos and loved it.  I, myself, run an LTA Reference 40 with about 52 watts, combined with a Don Sachs 6sn7 based pre with Shuguang Dawning series premier tubes and a tube DAC and just love what I hear every time I have a listening session which is almost every night.  Also used a Bob Carver Crimson 275 slightly modified with the same setup and enjoyed that too.    I've tried several amps with the X5's including SS and , for me, those speakers love tubes.

[genjamon]

And Don sachs makes a highly praised KT88 push pull tube amp with more power than the Valhalla if separates are your bag. Never heard it myself, but plenty of positive comments around. Erhard Audio also has their Elvis amp which a friend of mine has and loves. Other than that, I would think the Raven amps would be worth investigating too.

[hilde45]

@geerock How did your X5s do with solid state? Lower power class A ss or A/B? How were the highs?

[Tyson]

Have any X5 or X3 owners here landed on a good midway power TUBE amp(s) in the 40-60w range, say re-issue Genelex Gold Lyon KT77 or warmish PSVANE KT88 output tubes?

Referring to NOT running a flatwatt 2A3 or 45 SET amp, and NOT running a higher power solid state amp. Looking to hear why a good 60W pentode amp with warmish input/driver and output tubes will NOT work well with X5s, essentially.  I design/build other AMT custom speakers as a hobby, and might demo some X5s is why I'm asking. Thanks in advance for your replies.   

This is the 40 watt Pentode push pull amp I'm running at this very instant.  I have 6L6GC tubes in there now and it sounds fabulous with the X3's:

[geerock]

@geerock How did your X5s do with solid state? Lower power class A ss or A/B? How were the highs?

I used an Anthem mrx710, and pair of Odyssey monos, an Emotiva Gen 3, a Bryston.  Out of the lot the Odysseys performed the best but all were beaten, especially in the upper range by, by tubes setups.  I love that Beyma AMT,  but the SS were just a bit harsh for my ears, not bad for some recordings, but the real gain with tubes was in soundstage, depth, instrument location.  It was just a more immersive experience for a listening session.  I stopped having to analyze the music and just more enjoyed it.  Its tubes for me.  YMMV.

[hilde45]

That's helpful to know, geerock! Thank you.

[decooney]

@geerock, @genjamon, @Tyson, @abomwell

Appreciate your informative replies, with details and examples. Super helpful, Thanks!

Pairing up really good tube preamps and tube amps with these type speaker designs is a lot of fun. 

[morganc]

Have any X5 or X3 owners here landed on a good midway power TUBE amp(s) in the 40-60w range, say re-issue Genelex Gold Lyon KT77 or warmish PSVANE KT88 output tubes?

Referring to NOT running a flatwatt 2A3 or 45 SET amp, and NOT running a higher power solid state amp. Looking to hear why a good 60W pentode amp with warmish input/driver and output tubes will NOT work well with X5s, essentially.  I design/build other AMT custom speakers as a hobby, and might demo some X5s is why I'm asking. Thanks in advance for your replies.

The Carver Crimson is playing in my system now and is quite nice running Kt 120’s.

[morganc]

Good question decooney,

MorganC, I think I really do agree with you. What I was trying to say is that I'd prefer a speaker that does not require very, very specific setups to sound decent. Something where I can make various changes and it sounds good but in different ways.

I'm committed to tube pre, tube amps, r2r tube dac -- so those are all standard for me.

Right now, I have some speakers that only sound non-harsh if I do all the right things -- cables, tube pre, the right tubes, room treatments, etc.

 

[decooney]

The Carver Crimson is playing in my system now and is quite nice running Kt 120’s.

Good to know morganc.  Your post inspired me to order a quad of KT120s tonight.   My mono amps normally run KT150s specifically, and while they sound clean, clear, smooth, dynamic, powerful, my attempt is to see  to see if I can recapture older tube tone and slight rolloff right between EL34s and KT150s. I figure if Carver and CJ runs them and has liked them past several years, will give them a try and rotate them in every once in a while. We'll see.   

[morganc]

Good to know morganc.  Your post inspired me to order a quad of KT120s tonight.   My mono amps normally run KT150s specifically, and while they sound clean, clear, smooth, dynamic, powerful, my attempt is to see  to see if I can recapture older tube tone and slight rolloff right between EL34s and KT150s. I figure if Carver and CJ runs them and has liked them past several years, will give them a try and rotate them in every once in a while. We'll see. 

Would love to hear head to head comparison of the two tubes.  I've not heard the 150's but am quite happy with the 120's for now though a few weeks ago I almost pulled the trigger on a KT150 based Allnic and then decided to give the Carver a try and have been super impressed. 

[decooney]

Would love to hear head to head comparison of the two tubes.  I've not heard the 150's but am quite happy with the 120's for now though a few weeks ago I almost pulled the trigger on a KT150 based Allnic and then decided to give the Carver a try and have been super impressed.

To MorganC, Fwiw, You might like Kt150s, hard to say. Maybe not. The amps to run them with is critical imo.  Not all amps being created equal. Running them in Carvers would be a good try, if interested in comparing.  With KT150s, It comes to preference and what you like to hear on your speakers.    Are you more in to detail and speed -or- a tad less detail, more full body, midrange, texture sound?.  KT150s in my amps have great highs and bass, and cover the full spectrum, midrange is smooth, "neutral" midrange is how I hear it, not pronounced in my system.  Known as a "balanced" output tube top to bottom in good amp designs.  With sensitive hearing, some times i prefer a tad more rolled off high freq to let more midrange forward sound through - depending on the recordings I'm listening to.  My last amp had (12) EL34s, KT88s. Too many tubes to make power. This is what drove me to try KT150 based amps, fewer tubes, less heat and fewer tubes to maintain. All my former tube amps had EL34s, KT88s. Tried some lower power triode wired 10w (lower plate voltage)  amps with KT150s, did not care for that with my 93db speakers.  Several colleagues are SET fans with low watt 300B, 2A3, 45 amps. Helped them build some horns speakers. Low power SET is not ideal for my own 93db sens AMT based speakers I build.  Down the road I may move to higher power SET or PSE 211/845 mono amps, maybe. Still on this KT120, KT150 trip for a while.  May never leave it. 

The KT150 based mono amps are a nice stepping stone,  and/or stopping point, now having heard and owned them a few years. Cap tweaks help here too.  I'll likely always have a pair of KT150 mono amps where I can run KT120s, KT150s with amps delivering the correct plate voltage for these tubes. This is key, as I've learned and heard it first hand.  Best to ensure the amps, transformers, circuit, plate voltage is designed to run and operate KT120s, KT150s properly, in their sweet spot. While KT150s are amazingly open, smooth, textured, powerful, sometimes I yearn for the grass-is-greener older EL34 tube sound too, not overly so. PSVANE KT88s can get close too.  I came from 35+ years of former [less detailed] sweeter sounding MOSFET dual mono SS amps. Amps with properly executed KT150 usage has been a nice segway 1/2 way between TUBE and SS amp worlds.  Fine tuning the smaller input/driver tubes paired with KT150 based amps helps get closer to the desired sound. I'm re-visiting KT120 output tubes again to see which direction the needle leans forward or back to in terms of tone, texture, velvet sound in my mono amps.

Spatial:
Curious to know how compatible properly designed kt120, kt150 based amps are with Spatial X3s, X5s. Or, will SET amps be a future target or not with them, not sure. Now seeing a wide range of folks with higher and lower power tube and solid state amps driving these Spatial speakers, which is a good sign of wide compatibility. Very cool!  Feedback here helps, a lot.  May try some X5s down the road... 

[geerock]

Would love to hear head to head comparison of the two tubes.  I've not heard the 150's but am quite happy with the 120's for now though a few weeks ago I almost pulled the trigger on a KT150 based Allnic and then decided to give the Carver a try and have been super impressed.

That Carver 275 is really a very impressive amp.  At the price it's just a giant killer.  My nephew owns a pair of Carver 350 monos which have basically the same circuit topography and they were extremely close in sound and performance.  I wished we had done a blind test but let me tell you this little $2700 19 lb 275 stood right there with those $9500 monos.  And if you take out the stock signal tubes and put in some NOS stuff of your liking, (I used some Teles from the 50's) and an upgraded fuse and power cord, this thing takes another step or two forward.  I also popped in some NOS Mullard EL34 's from my collection and really enjoyed that sound also.  Not necessarily better than the kt120's but a little different that you may like.  Since those changes I also cracked the 275 open and did a cap change on the boards.  Gave it a little more depth and PRAT.  I use this amp in a second system with modded Cornwall IV's and a tubed DAC but I would absolutely be comfortable swapping this amp out with the LTA Reference 40 Plus.  As far as the difference in kt series tubes?  I like the kt 120's compared to 150's.  It's really close but the 120's just seemed to be a bit more relaxed.  Now I had a quad of Dawning series WEKT88 PLUS and piped them into the Carver and I really liked those a bit more.  Unfortunately, one tube of the quad gave up the ghost and you cant find the Dawning series tubes anymore so I'm just waiting to see if someone puts one or 2 up for sale but another tube you may consider to roll is the Treasure 2 or natural sound Shuguangs and its rumored that Linlai elite series may he coming out with a kt88 and 120 tube sometime in the coming year.

[decooney]

@geerock appreciate the updates, would be interesting to get your take in a bit more detail focusing on EL34s vs. KT120s tone and midrange in your amps. The more "relaxed" comment helps me to recall KT120s vs. KT150s as I tried a few years back and apparently might not have burned in the KT120s enough, or as I suspect it now having gone through 200+hrs on my KT150s. Much smoother and different sounding after 200hrs, for sure. KT120s again, are next. Glad to read you've had luck with them and that you like the sound. Pairing and comparing these Carver amps is helpful information too re: 275s. Very cool. 

Super helpful insight if you are running or testing the Carver 275 amp with the Kt120s on Spatial speakers too, eh? 

re: Linlai, doing research and some indicators of it being ex-PSVANE employees who formed this, there is also some cautions noted on the Linlai global site about Chi-Fi counterfeiters already surfacing and claims the folks on eBay and Aliexpress are in question by Linlai Global. Hard to figure out what is legit and what is not any more. i.e. "buyer beware" link below, who knows if this global site for Linlai is even legit over others.  This whole fake tube stuff is something I stopped trying to figure out over the past year after the whole Shuguang debacle occurred.  Back to trusty Tung Sol 120s for me I guess, for now.  https://linlaiglobal.com/index.php/category/buyer_beware/

[hilde45]

LISTENING REPORT AT TYSON'S OF SPATIALS.

Wonderful time listening to Tyson's Spatial X3's. We listened extensively — over 3 1/2 hours! — and tried them both with his KT66 amp and his EL84 [CORRECTED] amp. They were positioned both back toward the wall (with some distance, of course) and then moved into optimal position.

Position and amp makes a difference but these speakers sounded glorious. Bass was always full and defined, mids were detailed and rich, highs were expansive and clean without being cold. Soundstage was broad and definite, and especially articulate when the speakers were pulled out into the room a bit.

All that said, I have to say that the effect of switch amps to the EL84 was dramatic. Textures went from LCD to OLED, to use a video metaphor, and the subtleties multiplied. A soprano's vocal sang a soaring pitch and we could see the sound sweep up and away into the top of the audiotorium. David Bowie's 12 string guitar on "Starman" was a unique instrument and not just an "acoustic guitar." Vocal phrasings across a bunch of songs possessed such acoustic nuance that one could also hear the musical nuance intended by the artist.

All in all, an exquisite sounding combination and an unforgettable listening experience. Thank you Tyson!

[Tyson]

LISTENING REPORT AT TYSON'S OF SPATIALS.

Wonderful time listening to Tyson's Spatial X3's. We listened extensively — over 3 1/2 hours! — and tried them both with his KT66 amp and his EL34 amp. They were positioned both back toward the wall (with some distance, of course) and then moved into optimal position.

Position and amp makes a difference but these speakers sounded glorious. Bass was always full and defined, mids were detailed and rich, highs were expansive and clean without being cold. Soundstage was broad and definite, and especially articulate when the speakers were pulled out into the room a bit.

All that said, I have to say that the effect of switch amps to the EL84 was dramatic. Textures went from LCD to OLED, to use a video metaphor, and the subtleties multiplied. A soprano's vocal sang a soaring pitch and we could see the sound sweep up and away into the top of the audiotorium. David Bowie's 12 string guitar on "Starman" was a unique instrument and not just an "acoustic guitar." Vocal phrasings across a bunch of songs possessed such acoustic nuance that one could also hear the musical nuance intended by the artist.

All in all, an exquisite sounding combination and an unforgettable listening experience. Thank you Tyson!

Hey, it was a blast having you over.  Yes, starting with the KT66 amp and moving on the the EL84 amp later was all part of my evil master plan!  Haha.  But seriously I did start with the KT66 amp and sub-optimal position of the speakers (too close to the front wall) to show that even with things not 'perfect', the X3's still sound very good.  But then moving them out 3 more feet into the room makes a nice improvement, and then swapping in the EL84 amp made another nice improvement.  Once that happened, you are right, they go from 'quite good' to 'photorealistic' in their presentation.  Like we talked about, at that level of quality, the big payoff is that everything becomes almost physical, and you don't hear abstract musical notes floating in the air.  No, what you hear is physical musicians creating music with their bodies.  It's hard to get to this level (and unfortunately usually expensive) but man, the payoff is so incredible. 

[abomwell]

Thank you, Tyson, for an extraordinary review!! If I missed it I apologize but, with your speakers out 5' from the front wall, how far do you sit from the speakers and the rear wall? Also what, if any , treatments are on the rear wall?

Thanks, again!

Al

[Tyson]

Thank you, Tyson, for an extraordinary review!! If I missed it I apologize but, with your speakers out 5' from the front wall, how far do you sit from the speakers and the rear wall? Also what, if any , treatments are on the rear wall?

Thanks, again!

Al

Sat about 11 feet back from the speakers and 4 feet from the rear wall.   

For treatment I have massive, 4" thick custom made panels (made by me), in addition to thick foam padding underneath shag carpet on the floor.  Just to give an idea, if you order a panel from a regular acoustic panel manufacturer, theirs are usual 2 inches thick, 12 inches wide and 24 inches long.  Mine are 4 inches thick, and the smallest one is 36 inches wide and 48 inches long.  Also, most panels from manufacturers use some type of fiberglass, which has around a p13 rating, while I found (and used) recycled denim material which is p19.  So it's denser and absorbs more.

To be frank, even with the treatments, the room is still 'slightly' too lively for my tastes.  But i'm very limited about where I can put additional treatments due to aesthetic concerns.  Someday I might build a bass corner trap for the right front corner as I still have a 50hz bass node that would be helpful for.  Otherwise, I am pretty happy with the room, especially compared with where it started (bare concrete walls and uncovered wood floors). 

If you want to see my design, a link is below, I took pictures and created a build thread when I built out a 2nd set of panels for my HT room.  The only difference is they were all black and used regular fiberglass.  But the core design idea was the same:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175422.0

[hilde45]

Tyson, regarding your living room, I cannot remember if your wall/ceiling joint meets at 90 degree angles or not. If so, a molding along that joint might help with some of the reflections. (Probably know this already, but sometimes we overlook things!)