[radarnyc]

Hey Marcus
When do you think that you might do some room measurements? It might be worthy of a new thread for "Room Sizes, Room Treatments and Measurements". I'm still tinkering with my room treatments as I'm doing the DIY route. My room is 14.5' wide x 22' although it 's not a closed rectangle as it opens to other living areas on the sides. In an case, my setup:
1. LTA Z10
2. X3; subs on 2nd to last dot (aka 10 of 11)
3. SMSL M400, Chord Cutest and MHDT Orchid Havana
4. MicroRendu
5. Owens Corning 703 DIY 6" absorption corner traps on the front wall
6. X3s 3.5' off front wall (I've tried 3' to 6') and 3' to side walls (I've tried 2' to 4')
Here is my current measurement of my left speaker

[abomwell]

Radarnyc, I understand  that dipoles are very tricky to measure. Based on your measurements it appears there is a suck-out in the power range between 100-260 Hz. Do you hear any of that?  For example it would be noticed as weakness in the left hand of the piano, trombones and cellos. But likely it doesn't sound exactly like it looks.

Al

[Desertpilot]

Hey Marcus
When do you think that you might do some room measurements?

You're correct, I should run REW measurements.  Maybe later today.  Looks like you have a 10dB swing peak to trough.  I think that less than 5dB is preferred.  Al said REW is tricky with dipoles.  I'll check on the REW forum for answers.

Good idea for a thread on acoustic treatment for dipole speakers.

Marcus

[radarnyc]

Marcus - that's correct and I had exactly a 20db spread before treatment. I'd love to learn how to measure better because my ears tell me a different story than what I see in my measurements.

The orange line is without room treatment:

[abomwell]

There is a world of information contained in these Linkwitz conclusions. http://www.linkwitzlab.com/conclusions.htm

Al

[Desertpilot]

There is a world of information contained in these Linkwitz conclusions. http://www.linkwitzlab.com/conclusions.htm

Al

Hi Al, an interesting read.  Not sure I agree with all his conclusions.  I prefer multichannel SACD.  Apparently, he does not.  I use a Parasound HALO A52+ amplifier.  Class A first 10 watts and then Class A/B.  If I read his comment correctly, he thinks there are problems with such an amplifier.  I've used this amp for more than 2 years and do not have any problems with it.

Marcus

[Desertpilot]

...I'd love to learn how to measure better because my ears tell me a different story than what I see in my measurements.

Me too.  I am loving the sound of my X3s and yet, I fear, it will probably measure poorly.

Can't win in this audiophile game.  LOL.

Marcus

[abomwell]

Marcus, my last speakers, before the Dutch and Dutch 8C's were Morrison Omnis. I was fretting over measurements and wrote to Don Morrison who scolded me writing "stop measuring, just listen"! Sage advice I would say.

Al

[abomwell]

PS: As mentioned, dipoles are very tricky to measure. And dipole
manufacturers apparently don't like publishing their measurements, probably because they would be misunderstood.
It's very hard to find Magnepan measurements, for example. And the few you do find look awful...not at all how they sound.

Al
.

[Desertpilot]

Marcus, my last speakers, before the Dutch and Dutch 8C's were Morrison Omnis. I was fretting over measurements and wrote to Don Morrison who scolded me writing "stop measuring, just listen"! Sage advice I would say.

Al

Thanks Al.  I completely agree.

Marcus

[Desertpilot]

I've lived with the X3s for about 2 weeks now.  I also installed a new DAC about a week ago.  The new DAC converts DSD to analog without converting to PCM first.  It also employs the newest Sabre ES9038PRO DAC chip.  For the last several days, I've listened to literally hundreds of music tracks, classical and jazz.  It's all amazing.  The classical tracks stood out because of vocals, both soloists and choirs.  Also broad and deep soundstage.  The jazz tracks also had solid vocals, but piano and drums were outstanding.  Horns were excellent, both classical and jazz.  I really have zero complaints.  The GIK 6A absorber/diffusion panels on the front wall contribute to "clean" sound.  No listening fatigue.  If my wife didn't have "honey do's" for me, I'd sit in the MLP all day (yes, I'm retired).

The DAC has an interesting design.  If I play a 2.0 channel track, the DAC plays to my Left & Right X3s only.  If I play a multichannel 5.0 or 5.1 track, the DAC will send the analog signal to all 5 speakers and my two subwoofers.  The side surrounds actually do a very nice job reproducing surround signals.  They are mostly for ambience but a few jazz albums got fancy and sent instruments to the surrounds.  Not bad at all.  I relocated my two subwoofers to the rear of my room.  On multichannel tracks, the subwoofers come alive.  They did not contribute any boominess.  But, I could tell there was added bass.  I'll have to dig deeper into aligning the subwoofers with the X3s.  But, for right now, I'm good.  I think adding another X3 to take over center channel duties will be a big improvement for multichannel surround music.

At the moment, I think I have speaker positioning set and integration of my surround speakers and subwoofers.  Final step is installing and integrating my new X3 center channel.

Interesting to note that when I walk behind my speakers (there's 4.5 feet between the speakers and front wall) the sound is as clear as walking in front of the speakers.  That's a lot of sound headed directly at the front wall.  The MLP is 10 feet from the speakers and 14.5 feet from the front wall.  The GIK absorber/diffusors must be helping reduce front wall reflections back to the MLP.

No regrets.  No buyer's remorse.  Music fills up my entire front wall with, in my opinion, glorious sound.

Marcus

[morganc]

Congrats Marcus.  You’ve got a great set up, I’d love to hear that DAC sometime. 

How did your boys like the demo that you gave them? 

[Desertpilot]

Congrats Marcus.  You’ve got a great set up, I’d love to hear that DAC sometime. 

How did your boys like the demo that you gave them?

My boys loved the sound.  They "keyed in" on vocals and were impressed.  I only had one evening with them so I was a bit limited but I got through a bunch of tracks.  I have three recliners that get reasonable sound.  My older son wasn't so impressed with the sound of choral music.  He was a bass vocal in his college choir.  He is very critical about choir music.  I put him into the center recliner, that is the MLP, and everything opened up for him (whew!).  I've tried "extreme" toe in and while it allowed the center image to remain intact across all three recliners, the speakers became very noticeable.  I had to abandon it.  I think, once I get the third X3 for the center channel, this issue will go away (as it did for my previous setup).  I expect all three recliners will then get superb sound.  They will be back for 4th of July weekend.  I should have the center channel in place by then.

...if you are ever in Vegas, let me know.  It would be great fun to have a fellow audiophile over to listen.

Thanks for asking, Marcus

[Desertpilot]

Yesterday was dedicated to piano music.  Today, I moved my right X3 to the center to test multichannel surround.  Here are my listening results.

Piano:  Mostly classical and some jazz.  As I understand it, piano is very difficult to record.  I can attest that it is also very difficult to reproduce at home.  The X3s were indeed up to the challenge.  Best sounding piano I've ever heard in my listening space.  The piano was centered properly with a wide soundstage behind the speakers.  I played DSD files that were well recorded.  I did not, however, feel that the piano was in my Livingroom.  I suppose I could "tweak" things a bit to make the sound more robust.  At the moment, I am happy with the sound.

Multichannel:  As you know, I ordered a third X3 for center channel duties.  Clayton said it would be a month before production.  I thought I should test having an X3 in the center.  Just to make sure I really wanted to put an X3 in to the center.  Not a fair test as I used one of my old bookshelf speakers on the right.  I played 5.0 and 5.1 multichannel DSD files (again mostly classical and some jazz).  I will continue listening tests all day today.

Initial results:  Of course, the right bookshelf speaker simply could not keep up with the X3s.  Thus, everything shifted a bit to the left.  But, the good news is that the soundstage was still deep and behind the speakers.  The X3 as a center channel strengthened the center image, as expected.   Every thing I played so far sounded as good as it has with left/right X3s only.  I did not feel as if the sound was coming from the speakers which was great to find out.  Dipoles send so much sound towards the front wall, I guess I should have expected it.  Most of my music collection is classical multichannel so I have plenty to continue testing the X3 center speaker.  It is not really obtrusive but blends in nicely.  All my equipment is on the back wall.  I run 12 gauge Blue Jeans cable to the front wall.

A couple questions I need to ask myself as I test multichannel.  Is the size of an X3 in the center too overwhelming?  Does it make a significant difference to sound quality?  I'll report back once I sample a lot more multichannel music.

Marcus

[abomwell]

Marcus, have you heard the San Francisco Symphony's Mahler's 5th Symphony in 5.1? It's 5 1 at it's best! Great recording

Al

[Desertpilot]

Currently, I own Mahler's 5th with Iván Fischer and the Budapest Festival Orchestra, recording date: September 2012.  Multichannel, 5.0.  I will certainly look for the version you pointed out.

Thank you
Marcus

[Desertpilot]

Quick update as I listen in multichannel surround.  I increased the right channel (now using my old bookshelf speaker) by 6Db.  That did it.  Now the soundstage is balanced.  I played a few tracks with soloists who stand on stage in the middle separated by a few feet left & right.  They all came through in their correct placement.  Now for some more happy listening.

Marcus

[Desertpilot]

Results!  Moving my right X3 to the center was a very interesting move.  I did not detect any distortion (i.e., speaker interaction or interference).  My DAC is a multichannel DAC so signals were sent to each speaker as presented on the media (DSD or PCM files).  The files I selected today were the multichannel version (as commonly found on SACDs).  Up until now, I've played only the stereo version since I was testing the new pair of X3s.  The X3s have always been set as "full bandwidth" speakers so they get the entire signal, no crossover.

I played mostly classical, including piano, violin, orchestra, choir and soloists.  I thought the piano pieces sounded better in multichannel.  I don't know why.  Piano just sounded fuller and more robust.  The soundstage sounded as good or better than stereo.  My entire front wall was filled with sound.  In fact, as I walked around the room, the sound was even.  One time, I left the room to go to the kitchen area of our great room and it still sounded excellent.  What I mean is that off axis listening did not affect the center image.  I had this experience with my old speaker system.  But, of course, the sound quality was much better using the X3s.  So, for me, using three X3s as left, center and right speakers for multichannel music is a winner.

The obstacle for most everyone is the size (height) of the X3.  In a usual home theater, a center channel X3 would block a TV.  In my case, I raised my projector screen so the X3s would not block the projection.  This actually worked out okay for us as we always recline our seats to watch a movie.  I am pretty sure Clayton is not enthusiastic about building a center channel speaker for his systems.  BUT, my old center channel, on a stand is 30 inches tall.  If Clayton eliminated the bass driver, believe it or not, an X3 (without the bass driver) would be about 30 inches tall.  Perfect.  He might have to put some tilt in to it to aim the AMT driver.

My test today means I will likely accept the X3 I ordered.  I still have time to think about it, I guess.  The width of my listening space is a little over 14 feet.  I have the left and right speakers two feet in from the side walls and toed in (slightly).  This gives me about 8 or 9 feet between the left and right speakers.  Since I have the speakers about 5 feet from the front wall, that puts the speakers 10 feet from the listening position.

Thanks for listening.
Marcus

[Desertpilot]

Not much "action" around here lately.  Maybe a few folks got their speakers from Clayton and they are busy setting them up and listening to music.  Looking forward to hearing from them about their own thoughts on Spatial Audio Lab speakers.

I continue to be focused on piano music but yesterday I downloaded from Native DSD: Brahms: Symphony No. 3, Serenade No. 2, offered by Channel Classics.  Budapest Festival Orchestra, Ivan Fischer conductor.  Jared Sacks, producer & recording engineer, Channel Classics Records (also co-founder of Native DSD).  Simply superb orchestral music.  The X3s handled it with complete authority.  Album was recorded September 1st, 2020 and released for download, yesterday, SACD released next week.

My own setup is complete.  My only issues are sidewalls.  Left speaker is 2 feet from left sidewall.  Is this enough?  Given side cancellation as a feature of open baffle speakers, I hope so.  There is no right side wall (opens to a great room).  GIK suggests putting "gobo" panels along right side for symmetry.  I happen to have one and tried it but I could not hear any difference and it looks terrible there so I removed it.  Otherwise, I feel great about every other aspect of setup.  The sound at the MLP is simply amazing.  What I really enjoy is having the entire front wall alive with music.  I mean, it's as if the whole orchestra is there.  Instruments and especially soloists are right where they should be located (I compared music location with concert videos of the same album).  Speakers are 8 feet apart and 10 feet to MLP.

Just waiting for my third X3 for the center channel.  Location is already set and tested so really not a lot of work to do when it gets here.

I am waiting to do REW measurements until third X3 installed.  Listening is the most important measurement.  I cannot hear any deficiencies.  Bass sounds clean and clear.  I do not feel I am missing any frequencies.  Once I do REW I will see what it says.  I do have sufficient room treatments, in my opinion.

Thanks for listening.
Marcus

[abomwell]

Thanks for the update, Marcus! I'm very interested to see your REW graph if you post it.

Al