AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: Mr. Big on 5 Sep 2020, 06:21 am
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214147)
I took the jump, My M3 Sapphires arrive today. Fingers crossed. Will I be able to adjust to them after Quads ES 63's from Electrostatic Solutions that were totally rebuilt along with the power supply. Will the M3S be just another hi-fi sounding speaker like many I've heard in today's audio sound and that is big named speakers in the 15-20K range where I sat their bored, nothing as real sounding as my Quads. I of course hoping for a great experience, hopefully, what my Quads do right and then some. Set them up where the Quads were and those speakers put out as much sound front the back as they do in the front. Some have said I should take the bass traps down and let the bass really go deep. Did anyone hear of this? I have them 24" from the front wall. Bass seems light weight thus far, Quads went deeper and better mid-bass. 1st impressions, nice midrange, seems a but hollow, highs are nice. These were a reviewers set, so they has some time on them. Using the spikes he said take the spikes off for more bass, and to his ear natural sounding.
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I can’t wait to read your impressions. I’m on the fence myself.
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That esl 63 set up is very nice. I'm not sure if you are going to adjust or not. I have X5's and it took some time for them to break in or for ne to get used to them after putting aside some Magnepan 3.7i's. And, although I haven't owned a Quad set up, I certainly always had them on my radar. I have a cousin who has a set who lives a few hours away and it's always a joy to visit to listen to his set up. All I can say is good luck. BTW....did you sell off the 63's?
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I have definitely not found the Spatials I have heard to be 'hi-fi sounding'. They will have a different character than planars though, but I think you'll be pleased. Only listening after break in will tell.
In my case, I've noticed as time goes on I've noticed that speakers with complex multi-way driver layouts (Legacy being a good example) just don't 'float my boat'. Maybe that's part of why I found the Spatials I've heard so listenable. As an AudioNote rep said to me, "the more complex the design, the harder it is to create the illusion of a single source." I would add, this gets truer fast as one strays from the 'sweet spot'.
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Why did you get rid of the Quads
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Just day one with them. It will take time to figure them out. I not expecting them to do what Quads so right and just natural, music just flows and is there in front of you. I've heard many 20K speakers that cannot do this, Quads from the 1st ESL 57 I heard have always had this ability to just reproduce what the recording be it vinyl back then or digital today. It truly is a genius design by Peter Walker and when you think about it over 60 years ago. Like they say once heard and owned many never leave their Quads behind and those who do always come back to them. Clayton told me in advance of the few areas that I might miss without the Quads, and he was right. Clayton is a straight shooter. I have the Spatial 34" from the front wall to the outer corner of the speaker, of course, I have a bass trap up in the corners of the front wall behind the speakers, so I am guessing M3 our 29-30" from the corners with the bass trap. The trap does stop the back wave from canceling out the front wave of the woofer, a must-have for Quads ESL 63's because there is as much sound coming out front behind the speakers as in front. So I put the Spatial in the same spot to start. Anyone who has any hands-on feedback I love to hear from you. Before the Quads, I owned the Dynaudio Confidence 5's, and the bass from them could really shake the room. One speaker, I do miss.
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Still have Quads. I wanted to try a new speaker and after hearing many of the same old names, I found I had no interest in them, Spatial was a bit different from the rest of the pack. So that gave me interest. I may keep both or sell one of them. Only time will tell, never jump to a quick conclusion in audio, that is a big mistake. You have to learn and understand what is in front of you then make adjustments after all my whole system was tuned to bring the best out of the Quads and that took a while. You cannot plunk down speakers say that sounds good and that be the end of it, you never hear what the speaker can do.
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On the bass traps: I have M5s and am getting GIK monster traps for all four corners of a small room.
I ran the GIK engineer’s recommendation by Clayton and he endorsed it without hesitation. So at leas in some applications, ther is nothing wrong with putting serious bass traps behind a OB speaker. Look forward to your further impressions. Mine took a long time to sound good so be patient.
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Socpit, Thanks. How long till your broke in? Did you try them without the front spikes, my Quads sounded horrible spiked, thin as a transistor radio. Spikes do that on a well-balanced speakers, shifts everything to the top and forward. Clean yes, overtones weight, and color no/nada.
I read an article in Stereophile and the writer found the same thing, he said his system sounded better, with no pikes at all under anything, just a good supporting rack.
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Already playing with them. I have some different spikes that will fit the speakers, having said that I took the spikes off and sure enough the top-down sound and forwardness is gone, now it is balanced with much better mid-bass, and the bottom end is fuller and you can now feel it. Running my Esoteric burn-in disc and yesterday the bottom popping sounds were nowhere to be found, so weak, today after the spikes are gone, they are back. As the speakers stay in place, they will open up has the carpet his crushed down to firmer support.
Again, you have to try outside a given box and use your experience, with the way they are now you, would never have to have used those resisters, the sound you did not like was the spikes screwing the balance of the speaker. Clean yes, forward yes, but body and tone and color impacted for a clean sound. Like I said yesterday I had tried spikes on the ESL 63's and they stayed on 2 minutes, the same effect but worse. I'll try a different spike to see what happens, then if the same back to the provided feet minus spikes. They are much more ambiance without spikes and more body things sound real now.
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My M3's took a good 100 hours to settle in. Give them time . Run them 24/7 if you can. JAJ
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Socpit, Thanks. How long till your broke in? Did you try them without the front spikes, my Quads sounded horrible spiked, thin as a transistor radio. Spikes do that on a well-balanced speakers, shifts everything to the top and forward. Clean yes, overtones weight, and color no/nada.
I read an article in Stereophile and the writer found the same thing, he said his system sounded better, with no pikes at all under anything, just a good supporting rack.
150-200 hours, and slight placement adjustments imho make all the difference too. Be patient. I used the short spikes at first with a very thick rug. Am now using the long ones that came with speakers. I’m a bit reluctant to dump spikes altogether, since the tipping point of the speaker is then very close by, and I’m a klutz in earthquake country. I have an early production version of M5s before the crossover went outboard. Don’t know how they stand with the newer base. Am intrigued by your observations!
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sockpit, thanks! Did you run into a lack of real deep bottom end and mid-bass? If I could improve these 2 important areas this speakers would-be killer. They are fast, transparent, dynamic, all great but the impactful bass, my Quads had more and they put out more sound from the rear than the M3 sapphires, but I think the difference is the back wave canceling the front wave of the woofer, I mean 15" woofer though open box should be able to hit 35 Hz with no problem if the Quads could. If you had a lack of bass when you 1st received them what did you find that resolve the issue. Thanks! I toe them more out this evening and it helped to smooth out the brightness, I had them toed into where the tweeters were crossing in front of me, now they are more between my neck and outer shoulder.
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Hi, Here a few things post earlier by the member SnowPuppy77 that might help you out things in context
Based on my experience with the M3S at about 30 hours of break-in the dome will start to sound more natural. For example sibilance and splashy whited out cymbals will go away. Midrange will also become fuller. It think this comes from not only the dome break-in in but from the woofer break-in which results in a fuller bass and mids. That said you will still experience notable improvements even past 100 hours with the dome. After the very long listening sessions over Thanksgiving weekend with my Dad I noticed that the imaging and coherence had improved. The M3S were just disappearing when music played. Also the coherence between the bass rest of the frequency spectrum is now remarkable. Even better than with my M3TM with its concentric compression driver in the top woofer.
This might be of interest also as he describes breakin process
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=166219.0
This review is really an initial impression as I have only had the M3 Sapphires for about a week. But since I am already so pleased with their break-in progress and the way they sound I felt it a good time to give some early impressions because several of you are wondering how they compare to the M3 Triode Masters (M3TM) which I am upgrading from. Glad to answer any questions you may have.
System:
PS Audio Dectet power conditioner
Pro-ject The Classic turntable with Clear Audio Ebony Performer V2 cartridge and Pangea phono cable
Schiit Mani Phono preamp with Swagman Labs power supply
Cambridge Audio CXC transport with Transparent coax digital cable
Schiit Yggrasil (Analog 2)
Schiit Ragnarok integrated amp
DHLabs Air Matrix balanced interconnects
Kimber 8PR speaker cables
Unboxing and Assembly
Unboxing was a bit easier than it was with the M3TM. The Sapphires come with the stands and cone spiked feet already attached and ready to go. So, the only assembly required is to plug the banana plugs into the back of the mid/tweeter and then plug your speaker cables into the main binding posts.
Describing the Build
The M3 Sapphires have a 3-layer baffle. The rear baffle is comprised of two layers at just over 2 inches thick. It is wrapped in black laminate. It looks clean and nicely done. It is just a neutral black and does not draw attention to itself as being either cheap looking or fancy. The front baffle which is about 6/10th of an inch thick does draw attention to itself and in a good way. The Sapele wood veneer is very nicely finished with a natural matte vs glossy look. I am very pleased that Clayton has decided to go with a choice of wood veneers. While I do think the M3TMs are attractive speakers I would personally have liked them more if they had a wood veneer like the M3s that were sold in Europe. I just love loudspeakers with a nice real wood finish that makes each speaker unique. And the finish on my M3 Sapphires fully satisfies. It is interesting to see how the Sapele reflects light differently throughout the day. I believe these speakers are gorgeous and I am very pleased with the build quality overall.
Sound
I initially set the M3 Sapphires in the exact same spot and toe in as the M3TM before ultimately adjusting for less toe in. Only difference being that the Sapphires are 2 inches wider and thus the centers of each speaker is 4 inches further apart than I had them with the M3TM. Within the first 30 seconds of hearing the M3 Sapphires I could tell that they had better clarity, more extension in the highs, and more bass impact. And the imaging was already detached from the speakers. The M3 Sapphires do impress immediately. However, after further listening with a switch to acoustic music a quote from Superflam came to mind “I'm wanting more presence and weight from the mids.”. Piano and classical guitar where sounding thin lacking desired weight and fullness. One thing the M3TMs do very well is tone and timbre with acoustic instruments. The M3TM may not have the best high frequency resolution but they do no harm and have very good mid-range resolution with fully fleshed out images. I love chamber music on the M3TM. All that said I knew it was too early for critical listening as it was still only a couple hours into day 1. While at work the next day, I played brown noise through them all day.
By day 2 after work I could already tell that the tonal balance was improving with acoustic guitars having more fullness. But still things were sounding a little stiff. Later that night I played The Doors Riders on the Storm at a moderate volume. This track is where I first began to understand just how much more musical insight the M3 Sapphires were bringing to the table vs the M3TM. The cymbal tap was clearer and more prominent, the bass was meatier and more palpable, the bass had more detail with each pluck sounding like a more distinct event, and an image and stage height which is much more enveloping. The keyboards on this song just sounded sublime. Like I was watching as much as listening to them. Jim Morrison’s voice sounded very clear and had the fullness I would expect it to have. However, there was an acoustic space around his voice that I had never noticed before. Not sure if this is the physical space he was in or a special studio effect but the M3 Sapphires were laying it bare. The sense of the acoustic space and/or studio effects are easier to notice on other recordings as well. I then thought of an analogy. Being a Lord of the Rings fan, I could not wait for the initial release of the movie trilogy on Blu-ray. This movie did look good on DVD but as expected the sharpness and detail was much improved on the Blu-ray. A casualty of this increased resolution was some of the special effects now looking fake or less real. But once you have seen it on Blu-ray there is no going back.
On day 3 listening was still limited due to work and other things in the evening. Played some familiar vinyl and noticed that the noise floor, pops, and tape hiss were considerably more prevalent than I am used to. This is not the fault of the speaker but a reality of a less than stellar pressing from an older analog master. The Sapphires were simply revealing more of what is there vs. the M3TM good or bad. The Sapphires are definitely brighter or more illuminated than the M3TM. Brighter but nicely balanced by the full and powerful bass. The Sapphires seem more neutral in the highs. This brings us to another thing that makes the M3 Sapphires so special, you get illuminated high frequency extension but without the listener fatigue that often accompanies it. A good example was Brian Bromberg’s Wood CD. The bass intro was as palpable and detailed as I have ever heard and I have heard this on several systems. More bass detail and authority than the M3TM for sure. Also, the image of someone standing upright and plucking a bass viol was more convincing. When the drums, cymbals, and piano joined I could tell the upper harmonics were more present. Beautifully illuminated and smooth with good timbre. The increased insight had me transfixed eagerly awaiting each millisecond to deliver something new with this familiar recording. At the end of the first track the gentle trills of the piano and cymbals sounded beautiful as they decayed into silence.
By day 4 after work much of the stiffness was going away after another full day of brown noise. I put on a 35 min long psychedelic track by Porcupine Tree call The Sky Moves Sideways (CD2 version). Bass was impactful and full coming from the keyboards followed by tight and punchy bass drum kicks. As the higher frequencies joined in with the cymbals, synths, and guitar a beautiful soundscape created by Steven Wilson was on full display. I was in total bliss through the entire piece on the M3 Sapphires. I was mesmerized. Discovered countless nuance I had never heard before. Have never come close to enjoying this track so much with no fatigue on even the intentionally harsh sections at moderately loud volume.
Day 5 (Weekend has finally arrived)
I finally had several hours of quality time to spend with the M3 Sapphires. That morning started with Govi Seventh Heaven. Bass was full and voluptuous. Bongo drums and tambourines floated in space. Guitars sounded as full and natural as I had ever heard revealing that the midrange was fleshing out. While highs were open and illuminated all was very balanced with the rich and tight bottom end. Just kept listening through the CD when I only planned on hearing a couple of tracks. My mind had kicked out of audition mode and was engaged in discovery and enjoyment.
Switching to the Telarc CD Bach Organ Blasters I discovered a power and definition in the low frequencies that I was not able to achieve with the M3TM. Especially on the Fugue in D Minor. The piece ends with the organ going full throttle. When the deepest pedals came in, I could just feel the power and impact. At the same time lots of details could be heard with the air pulsating through the pipes. This was the type of organ power and detail that my M3TM just could not deliver. Now my Dad’s JL Audio Fathom subwoofer is definitely more powerful and also has good detail. But for a 60 watt amp with passive speakers this is truly remarkable. Bass is the most expensive thing to get right in a box speaker and you get bass like the crazy expensive stuff with the M3 Sapphires for peanuts in comparison. You get this bass power while at the same time stand-up jazz bass sounds beautifully detailed, nuanced, and palpable. I then played Author Willis “The Vikings” Reference Recordings and the organ climax of that piece was again stunning in its deep power and detail with the deep organ pipes for speakers without a subwoofer.
Orchestral music is great on the M3TM. On the Sapphires bass drums do have more detail and impact. The stage on the Sapphires is taller and bigger. I noticed that the dipolar compression driver gives a little more depth to the M3TM sound field on some tracks. That said the Sapphires image better than the M3TM on and off axis.
Back to vocals. I played Mindy Smith Raggedy Ann from One Moment More. Mindy’s voice was projected front and center with excellent detail and beauty. Same with Norah Jones with the track Nightingale. Any concerns about weight or presence with vocals were gone with just about 30 hours of break-in with brown and pink noise.
And finally, I played Rutter’s Requiem. The huge undergirding of the organ pipes, the solo cello, and the ethereal voices began to stir strong emotions. As the choir sang in unison full strength “For they mercy’s sake” they projected in stark relief into the room. At that point I was overwhelmed with emotion as Rutter through the musicians, my components, and the M3 Sapphires did their job of refreshing my spirit.
Downsides?
Of course, there are downsides with every speaker. For starters the M3 Sapphires are substantially bigger and heavier than the M3TM which can make a difference when space is tight. Also, with the M3 Sapphires there is definitely a change in tonally balance vs. the M3TM. I find the tone of the M3TM excellent for older digital chamber music in that it is forgiving while still having satisfying resolution. While most of my chamber music reaches new heights with the M3 Sapphires it makes lesser recordings sound poor by contrast. Also, the M3TM on some tracks has more depth to the sound field. That said I still prefer the sound field of the Sapphires by a wide margin.
Conclusion
Clayton was not exaggerating when he said the M3 Sapphires are a significant upgrade over previous M3 models. For me the there is no going back to the M3TM. The bass improvement of the Sapphires is far from subtle. It is a big improvement that is appreciated every time I play them. The crossover less mid/tweeter offers a substantial increase of insight into recordings without sounding etched or fatiguing. And all is integrated beautifully. Love them.
« Last Edit: 6 Nov 2019, 03:28 pm by SnowPuppy77 »
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I finally read the manual! Really, Duh.
One suggestion made was 36" out front from wall to start, which I did. It then stated wait 48 hours and either pull them further out 6" from the front wall, or back 6", whichever one gives you the most mid-bass and bass is the distance to keep. Meaning you were in a bass canceling zone, (nordal area in the room. The louder bass area is the better location.
Well in my room and I believe due to not having the wall behind me, going back 6" to 30" from the back wall made a huge difference, now they have bass, full rich and deep, I tried 33" also and that was good also, but the extra 3" back made it even more dynamic and full. Going to do the final measurements then put the spikes back on and see which way I like it the best.
I am so happy to hear the improvement, before sounds like all midrange and highs, like a small 2 way with lightweight mid-bass down. So in some rooms close to the back wall works better than further out. My room of course as bass traps and other diffusion panels.
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Congrats Mr Big,
I went for the M3’s as well. It took me some time and tweaking to get them perfect for me. Lots of break in time for sure. I have them about 5ft out from the front wall and about 8 ft apart and toed in as well. I have wooden floors so the Isoacoustic Gaia’s were the first big tweak for me. Along with diffusion on front and back walls and absorption around the room. The other thing I found was experimenting with cables. Started of course with Anticables but wound up with SR’s. Happy Listening!
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You made my point. Each room is different, mine out 30" from the back wall but I have a bass trap in my corners, your's work best at 5' out. Which is why you have to experiment and see what works best for your room. I did my last setup without my 2 little subs on so I could hear just the speakers, adjusted toe is so from the inter panel measurement to the outside panels there is a about 5" difference. So the tweeter is about at mid-forehead off left and right just a bit on the center of my head. I can move my chair a bit if I want to move the tweet to the side of my head. Did the old head shifting and the image stay stable so you know you got it? I hook the subs up and things should improve, even more, subs do more than bottom end they help the speakers open up, even more, they are just not about the bass, you always need a pair to do t right. If I find I don't need them I will pull them, speakers going petty low now, with final a mid-bass.
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I have to disagree with SA owners who state that the SA speakers improve dramatically with burn-in. When I first got mine, brand-new, they sounded extremely vivid, dynamic, and transparent but clearly bright and with bass that was obviously rolled off from the lower midrange down. But once I had 200 hours on them they sounded extremely vivid, dynamic, and transparent but clearly bright and with bass that was obviously rolled off from the lower midrange down. In other words, they sounded pretty well the same! I have noticed that if you confine your listening to a single set of speakers that anomalies seem to become reduced the more you listen. That lightweight bass appears to be weightier and more extended; the searing highs you first encountered appear to mellow; and you may conclude that "burn-in" has done its beneficent work. However, if you constantly compare your new speakers to a "reference" set of speakers through this burn-in phase your sense of improvement in the new speakers may be undermined. I doubt very much if your new SA speakers will achieve the weighty bass you're looking for no matter how long you burn them in. I really believe SA needs to go active to get that full-bodied sound. At least the X series has a powered woofer but the all-passive designs just can't get the bass slam that a powered speaker is capable of.
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Getting a good bottom end now. Having owned many good boxed speakers over the many years, some had great bass with lots of weight, many very hard to get the bass to work right. Which is why I had my Quads ESL 63's for almost 10 years. What they do right no speakers can do, they are seamless, natural and due to the roll-off at the top, what you hear is really where music lives, and you don't miss the very top end that is a bit rolled of, but what they give you is very real-sounding.
OB speakers bass is different of course due to the design as all speakers, but they are very detailed in the bottom-end, with good impact. I've had the speakers 2 days and I am already learning how to set them upright with the opposite results I had before I moved them back 5-6" and get the toe incorrect for my room. They are very clean sounding but the vocals have good weight, the room they are in could very well make or break this speaker, but the funny thing is they were very easy to set up once I figured out the issue with the rolled off bass.
Right now after only 2 days, I am understanding the design and sonics. If you want to back off the tweeter put a resistor on the tweeter that would drop its output by 1db, then you would say whoa where did the extra bass come from, It because your ear would focus on the bass that had become more prominent. It all a balance of what your ear hears, if SA speakers were so bright I am sure they would not have the sales they have, there is a reason for it, and like Quad speakers which went against the grain, they have a following. I am not passing judgement on them yet, much to early in the game, but lack of bottom end is not the issue with them at this time, but with the other areas being so balanced the bass just does not stand out all the time unless it is in the music like you hear in a lot of box speakers.
I also don't always like to spike speakers, it depends and there is no set rule you have to though people automatically do because they think they have to. Yes, they can tighten the bottom end up, but they also can shift the presence areas from the top down, and take the soul out of the music, and leave nothing but a clean sound that as nothing to do with how real music sounds, my Quads with spikes sound aggressive, bright and the highs stick out like a sore thumb, took 2 minutes and they off, and the round pucks put make on and balance returned. I've tried the SA M3's both ways and I am most likely keeping the front spikes off. They set solid and with the back spike left on very stable. I am also impressed with the quality of the design and fit and finish.
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10/2/2020: The Spatial M3's continue to improve. No sub needed, in fact adding subs with these speakers really impairs the sound no matter the setting as low as 35 Hz, it throws the balance of the speaker off, Clayton also mentioned this that this could happen because you're adding back to the room what the OB speakers were designed to avoid. The Woofers on the M3's are just to fast and open. They actually made the speakers sound bright. Go figure. Another thing about these speakers, they tell you in a minute on any changes you make in your system down to the power cord powering the amplifier.
If I had to say one thing that took some time to adjust to is how open and boxless these speakers are, the music is just there in space with details, speed, and realism. I have them locked into my room now, but I am sure I try them a bit further apart to see if they can be further improved. But now I just want to sit back and enjoy them. All recordings sound fresh, with new insights, I would not call this speaker analytical, it an open window to the recording. Bass is strong but clean, a stand-up bass sounds natural, not slow or booming like a sealed bass tends to reproduce, sounds like a real stand up bass, light and agile at times, then a growl yet while remaining open sounding like life.
Vocals are another strong point, you hear all the nuances and the power of the vocal range. Highs are very open, in fact on a Dead Can Dance recording I heard the faintest ring of bells towards the end of one track, I've never heard them before. My journey with these speakers has been an education, how far they have come and improved and how I learned about them and setup, but also to follow Clayton advise, give them the much-needed time to break-in and you will be rewarded. Played some Telarc Classical recordings that I know quite well and the M3's nailed them with ease, no stress, no strain, no distortion, music just flowed I just felt like sitting back and enjoying the performance.
As far as I know, these still may not fully be delivering what they are capable of. I've not put the hours on them as many as stated they need. I am also now firm on these speakers sound better without the spikes in the front of the speaker in my room, not even close now. Improvements: More Dynamics, Presence, Better highs, and mid-bass and bottom end all now night and day better. Jim Smith wrote an article on spiking speakers and he found about the same as I have in my 35 years in this hobby, most of the time they do more harm than good. A kettle drum in back of the hall on a recording came to life without the spikes, sounded like the real deal, deeper, clearer and more dynamic.
https://www.psaudio.com/article/spiking-your-speakers-whats-the-point/
Along with my Quads ESL 63 speakers that were fully rebuilt from the power supply up, these are some of the best speakers I've heard/owned in 30 years in this hobby. Pictures of my room along with room treatments which I am sure really help me get the sound that I am enjoying, your room is always a big part of the final sound you hear. I can now fully and easily hear even a change of one power cord anywhere in the system, heard them before but not to such an extent. Tells you how transparent these speakers are without being bright. My question now is if I might add a tube preamp in the mix to go along with my McIntosh amp. PrimaLuna EVO 400 comes to mind.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214965)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214967)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214968)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214969)
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Today I finally found the best spot for the M3 in my room, after moving them in and out, closer and then further from my seat, and then after these breaking in, I wound up about where I had my Quads, and this spot when I first received them was the spot I felt the bass/Mid-Bass was lacking. Well no more. I played a big symphony Dvorak Symphony No. 7. This was one of the recordings I played on day one, so I felt this be a good one to see how far these speakers had come. Well, night and day might be a touch rich, but dam close. The weight was there now, the Tympani drum was there and the more realistic that I've ever heard it, the low rosin tone of the cellos was nicely rendered in fact the whole section was there now in full. The midrange was still very open, and alive, so the improvement in the mid-bass down did not color the midrange on up. This recording sounded like a Merurcy Living Presence should, Next, I played the same movement but now from the Cleveland Orch, under George Zell, they had their own sound, and being from Cleveland I have heard the Cleveland Orch, and this recording came across as the orch. sounds, rich full and 100% Cleveland Orch, the recording is typical for Columbia back then, a touch hot in the strings, but the M3's still gave you an enjoyable listening, even with the slight touch of the strings being hot on this recording, not the speakers.
The big thing about these speakers and well any speaker is finding the right spot to make them work in your room. I had them more spread out and toed in so the hit me between my neck and shoulder. I then toed them in another 1/4" and the sound stage lock-in, but I was still feeling something was not as focused and as could be, so I walked behind my chair, about 18" and listened and sure enough, the whole presentation was lock-in and sounded like you were listening to a full-sized orch as one would live. This told me I had to pull the speakers close to getting this same imaging and sound, so 3" in for each speaker, checked toes-in and played the recordings again and bam nailed it, Speed, Dynamics, Bottom End, all there.
2nd thing I've learned depending on your seating and distance, you have to try both sizes of spikes, in my room the smaller set makes the tweeter hit me to direct and throws off the balance so more upper midrange and highs, take the spikes off and just use the cone fit that you interest the spike into brings a big improvement in presence, and dynamics, I could live with that, but I added the taller spikes and kept a lot of what I liked with no spikes, but gained in detail in the bottom end. So for now the tall spikes are my choice.
I've read where some say the vocals sound hollow, well it's not the speaker it is your setup, your tilt is off on the speaker from where you are sitting, so if you're using the short spikes, then try the taller ones, also toe-in you must play with it, so in other words, its takes no time and effort to get them right and NO different than any other good speaker.
Everything Clayton says about his speakers is a fact, we cannot hear them at a dealer so it is good to know what he says is not just a sale pitch but honest information. On top of that he willing to talk with you, and in fact called me to see how the speakers were coming along and answer some questions that I had but had no info to understand some of my concerns about toe-in and how it affects this speaker, etc. He answered every question and give me all the time I needed. The main thing he said and something he hears a lot is where the bottom end, and in almost every case they call him back in a month and said "I am glad I allowed the time to let the woofers break-in. Well, I can a test to that, add me to the list. Buy these expect a break-in period that just the nature of the beast. These speakers also do not break up as the dynamics increase, sometimes, I have to turn the volume down because they can soar as the music demands it, getting used to this dynamic range takes some getting used to. Finally, my wife says "they really sound good" that means a lot because she is not an Audiophile, she just enjoys the music, but today she said from downstairs the Cleveland Orch sounds terrific it sounds like they are in Severance Hall. (This is where they perform). Great acoustics.
A friend of mine purchased Shanahan speakers and they told him about a year, in fact, warned him, the speaker has 17 drivers, I spoke with him about mine, and he said Clayton is most likely right, his took almost a year to come into there own. So he told me also to hang in. Also, corner bass traps are a must, they are misunderstood by the general public, they don't kill bass they improve bass, Clayton suggests for me to by a 2nd pair and use them from floor to ceiling in the 2 corners behind the speaker, I may try that down the road, the pair I have now are doing just fine to my ear if it keeps getting better wow!
Well to end this, I will say those who own these know how good they are, for the money a value off the charts. I am sure over the next 2-3 weeks this will continue to improve. They love my McIntosh 400 watt, the ease and dynamics are unmatched in any speaker I've owned, perhaps my Dynaudio Confidence 5's were good in that area, but not close to the M3's. I also must note due to the size and weight these are easy to move and position by oneself in fact easy even when the spikes are on, you can toe them in and out with ease. Even moving them side to side is doable.
So if you have interest in open baffle speakers, then give Clayton a call, he will help you pick the right speaker for your room, for mine, it was the M3"s not the X-series. and he was correct. Call me one happy customer, and glad I took a chance on these speakers, hang in with them learn them, set them upright, and then sit back and enjoy for many, many years to come. The only change I may make is to add a tube preamp, just to see what tubes might add. Speakers, I think I am finished for a long time. I have 2 world-class sounding speakers now the Quads ESL 63's and the M3's. Not sure I'll keep 2 sets so I might sell the Quads and just enjoy the M3's, and let someone else enjoy my Quads who may have never heard them in their life.
Hope my feedback is helpful to folks with an interest in OB speakers. :D
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Thank you! Your feedback is very valuable! To echo your friend, I'd fully expect drivers of such high resolve in an inherently uncolored design to keep revealing improvement in the function and movements of all the materials. In my most stable systems, I've continued to extract higher levels of performance over the course of years... years of playing, tweaking, and trying things with what I have. Anyhow, I remain positive that a pair of M3 Sapphires is a solid choice! Your comments are welcomed!
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Great to hear the speakers have met, and even exceeded, your expectations. A couple of things: why did you go for the M series rather than the X's? And have you listened to the Quad's since you got the SA's? I ask this because my experience with "burn-in" was nowhere near as dramatic as yours but I constantly shuffled between the new speakers and my other ones during this period so I had a constant reference to compare the SA's to; in other words, it wasn't just a matter of my becoming accustomed to the new speakers' sound.
If you can afford to, I would suggest you hang on to the Quad's as well as the M3's. If you sell, I'll wager that sometime in the future you'll be playing some recording and thinking wistfully how beautiful it sounded on the stats and that you can't quite replicate it with the new speakers.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=214668)
Jean, Went with the Sapphires over the X series after speaking with the Clayton and sending him pictures of my room. He said they would work better. He designs the speakers so he knows. No you don't become accustomed to a speaker when at 1st its sounds rolled off in the mid-bass and lows, if that was an issue it would stay unless you stuffed them right into a corner, I put them back to where the Quads were and where I started when I 1st received them, no contest after the woofer broke in some.
Yes, the Quads design does things other speakers cannot, but the M3's after they fully get those drivers broken in, or as Clayton says loosened up from use and those woofers take some time, and I am not fully there yet they will be very enjoyable. I may well keep the Quads but I am not sure I want to keep switching speakers back and forth. I missed my Dynaudio speakers at times while I had the Quads, but I still sold the Dynaudio and the buyers were so happy to own them, so excellent speakers to another good home. Quads if I sell will be a local pickup.
I am not a gear junkie, I buy good gear, work with it and bring out the best, and the room is a HUGE part of it. Drivers do break in, any speakers manufacture will tell you that, it's a given, but placement is important also, and having a loft in my home affords me to set up a system for just audio use, so no big-screen TV in-between the speakers of furniture to the sides of them. The room may not be a large family room, but it large enough for decent-sized speakers to work well, and with no walls behind me where I sit I do not get back waves bouncing behind me.
Having the Quads gives you a great speaker to use as a reference, If the M3's were not my cup of tea, after owning the Quads I return them or sell them, but they are very, very good speakers and a nice transition from Quads, this does not mean the Quads are inferior, but then the Quads can not do something that the M3's can. Like any speaker, there are always some trade-offs. Just 2 weeks with the M3's, I see how they do in a few more weeks. Jean, thanks for your feedback.
9/17/2010. The Deeper bass is starting to show itself.
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I am particularly interested in the M100 tweeter in these - they call it a point source. What about it makes it a point source?
I think that having a driver that covers 5+ octaves is a good thing, and if it is anything like my Linaeum LT1000 speakers (the TLS tweeter is crossed over at 440Hz), you can't know how well this can work until you hear it.
I don't know how big drivers, particularly in an open baffle - work to cover the lower midrange. Do both the woofers cover the same frequencies?
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One woofer is said to roll off to meet the m100. The other operates 90 and below.
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Neil,
Clayton talks about the tweeter and more of the design on a YouTube video.
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Okay, thanks. So the upper woofer is crossed at about 576Hz, and the lower one at about 90Hz. Kind of a 2 1/2 way design?
I will look for the video(s) on the tweeter. As I said, I think that tweeters that crossover low, are a good thing.
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I think I found the tweeter used in the M3 Sapphires - Peerless DA32TX00-08
Parts Express has them on sale for $64: https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-da32tx00-08-1-1-4-corundum-dome-tweeter--264-1678 (https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-da32tx00-08-1-1-4-corundum-dome-tweeter--264-1678)
They have the resonance frequency at 573Hz, and yes they have response out to 40kHz, but there is some serious ringing at about 26-34kHz; with a 13-14dB spike at ~27kHz. Very flat on axis from 1kHz to 22-23kHz. The Mms is just 0.54 gram - I can see a big part of why the M3 Sapphires are well reviewed.
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Neil, One point to remember Clayton had tweeter build to his spec for his use in an open box design speaker. It's like the Dynaudio tweeters used for their own speakers and then ones sold on the open market.
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I think I found the tweeter used in the M3 Sapphires - Peerless DA32TX00-08
Parts Express has them on sale for $64: https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-da32tx00-08-1-1-4-corundum-dome-tweeter--264-1678 (https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-da32tx00-08-1-1-4-corundum-dome-tweeter--264-1678)
They have the resonance frequency at 573Hz, and yes they have response out to 40kHz, but there is some serious ringing at about 26-34kHz; with a 13-14dB spike at ~27kHz. Very flat on axis from 1kHz to 22-23kHz. The Mms is just 0.54 gram - I can see a big part of why the M3 Sapphires are well reviewed.
Hello Neil,
The Spatial M100 driver is based on the Peerless DA32, but with many changes so the we can safely crossover over very low in frequency. The ringing you mention at 24kHz is the first breakup mode of the diaphragm. Stiff diaphragms usually have a more pronounced looking breakup resonant peak, but is above the audio band (20Khz), so its not a problem. Soft domes have damped, low Q breakup behavior but start the breakup well below 20kHz, in the audible region. So, the light, stiff diaphragm is superior in my view. Listening quality indicates a cleaner and more extended treble response without harshness or metallic colorations.
Clayton
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I am not a gear junkie, I buy good gear, work with it and bring out the best, and the room is a HUGE part of it. Drivers do break in, any speakers manufacture will tell you that, it's a given, but placement is important also, and having a loft in my home affords me to set up a system for just audio use, so no big-screen TV in-between the speakers of furniture to the sides of them. The room may not be a large family room, but it large enough for decent-sized speakers to work well, and with no walls behind me where I sit I do not get back waves bouncing behind me.
Having the Quads gives you a great speaker to use as a reference, If the M3's were not my cup of tea, after owning the Quads I return them or sell them, but they are very, very good speakers and a nice transition from Quads, this does not mean the Quads are inferior, but then the Quads can not do something that the M3's can. Like any speaker, there are always some trade-offs. Just 2 weeks with the M3's, I see how they do in a few more weeks. Jean, thanks for your feedback.
I certainly sympathize with your longing to simply buy a good system and then forget about it, using it just to access your music and not letting the gear distract you. My argument in favour of having more than one set of speakers is that doing so enhances the listening experience because different speakers offer a different mix of attributes, some of which are better suited to certain types of music than others. If you confine yourself to one pair, you're often confining the range of music that you listen to. For instance, if I only listened to my SA's I would probably shy away from a lot of pop recordings because they sound shrieky and unpleasant, without the countervailing bass power and weight they need to come alive. So I play those recordings through my Barefoot MM12's, which have the attributes to bring out the best in those recordings. But on unhyped, unequalized recordings the SA's can sound amazingly vivid and present, to a degree I've never heard from any other speaker or headphone. Now it appears you listen mostly to classical music and I agree with you that the SA's excel with this music: the sense of an orchestra swelling behind the speakers I find particularly riveting. And for some reason they sound far more full-bodied with unamplified music than they do with processed productions. I've had to revise my conception of reproduced sound after hearing the SA's but it's left me with a lot of unanswered questions. Are they exaggerating the impression of "liveness" and transparency or are they simply peeling away the veiling which other speakers impose on the music? Are they simply revealing the harshness of many recordings or are they adding this to the sound? If they sounded harsh all the time I would opt for the latter but they often sound beautifully sweet and smooth. Are they exaggerating the differences between recordings or are they just naturally reproducing these differences in a way that evades more polite transducers? At the moment I don't know but I feel the need to also have speakers with a more relaxed and comfortable sound just to make less-than-stellar recordings to be more listenable.
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Jean, Processed music should like processed over-compressed music. Can't blame the speakers for that.
When I get the speakers set up right I only then play recordings made in the era of being real and natural. The recordings I've played and heard from 8 years old. This is when the rubber meets the road and the speakers. 50's Elvis, Sinatra, Late to Early 50's Billie Holiday, then Dead Can Dance for well recorded pop music that is electronically production by design. My wife said it best, these speakers were made for Elvis and Frank, she said I've never heard them sound so in-room and real. She asked for Peace In The Valley, and put that track on and even I stop in my tracks, I never heard it sound this real with the Jordanaires right in the same space and present as if your in the room with them both.
Frank sings one for my baby and one for the road was just like you were there. Billie Holiday's voice changes from session to session, the small jazz group recordings from the early '50s will tell you a lot about a speaker, and the M3 nail it. The Dead Can Dance recording showed off the production values, where never sounding real as its intent compared to the recording and artist I mention, it never the less sounded as good as I heard it even against my Quads, Quads are a star in the mid-range, and that any speaker can give them a run that says a lot about the M3"s.
My speakers are still breaking in, I will not use the spikes, I like them much, much better without them, and they shine without them. No contest in my room if I were to use them it be the taller of the set of spikes.
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I agree with you about the kind of recordings that suit these speakers: unamplified and unprocessed. If you haven't already, try some Julie London.
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i will chime in here, being a new customer of claytons, with my m3 sapphires in hand for a week so far, going through the break in process
i was very impressed by the quality of the speakers and the packaging... instructions were clear and though you definitely need 2 people to unpack and do initial set up, doing so is a breeze
i am going through the break in process, experiencing the same as expressed in this and other threads
- bass out of the box is truly excellent, such air, impact, no overhang, deepest octave not quite there yet but i imagine it will come in with more hours
- the way the sound comes at you with all the driver surface area is truly 'enveloping' in the nicest way (like the best of planars, but with prat) - the image is big yet specific, no sense of 'extrusion' of the sound as from monitor speakers with small drivers firing the music at you
- i am experiencing the expected thinness in the mids and the harsh treble from the new stiff drivers, but as the break in hours progress (now up to about 40-50 hrs) i can hear the mellowing start to occur, clayton promises the improvement will continue and be substantial
- while i know i am far from hearing these speakers in their final fully broken in state, my guess, given the nature of this tweeter is that these speakers are closer to my proacs in liveliness and see-through-ness, than my harbeths for their fuller/rounder/slightly softer focus sound...
i plan to use tube gear (15-20-25 wpc single ended tube models) to drive these, given the stated higher sensitivity of these m3s's, we will see whether the large bass drivers and 4 ohm impedance can be handled with my SE tube amps
for now, i am doing break in with my solid state hegel h390 and h20 -- streaming tidal rap soul and dance music playlists (give those drivers some serious exercise) - mega grip and ultra clean/smooth sound from these amps - playing at high-ish volumes to accelerate break in somewhat
will update as process continues
so far, very impressive indeed, and if the expected continued smoothing out of the treble and filling in of the midrange body continues, the performance/price/value of these m3s's is truly compelling
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Hang in they will improve. Please update us. They don't mind power at all, I am using McIntosh 400 watt amp, the bass is deep, deep, and tight. Highs open and transparent, midrange as good as the recording. Speaker wires can really impact the sound, toe-in also, 2 sets of feet try both the short and small, depends how far away you sit if closer and there is a lot of benefits to that, the shorter spikes for sure. they also have feet without using the spikes give that a go also, stay open-minded and relax and listen. Play some well-recorded music that is natural-sounding and recorded. Once that clicks then you are at the mercy of the recordings and at least you will know that, and not think it's the speaker. I changed the speaker wire to Analysis Plus Black Mesh Oval 9 and the speakers just came to life. Like always new speakers new speaker setup and learning about the speaker, when it sounds good and what you do to make it sound not as good, it's like learning all over again. Clayton made a great speaker and you will appreciate it as time goes by.
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Question for M3 Sapphire (and/or X3 & X5) owners...how many hours of break-in were required before the speakers no longer changed characteristics?
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That would depend on how much use. Most would say 50-100 hours. I would say this is correct. Then you start finding the best spot in your room and then work of distance apart, from the front wall, and then a big key the toe-in, and that will vary by room size. Let your ears be your guide and use well-made recordings that are natural-sounding, when those put a smile on your face you got it. Any speaker setup takes time, but a good starting spot might be where you had your last speakers set up and go from there.
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50-100 hours.
Thanks.
jjss49 stated he's at 40-50 hours and the speakers are still changing due to stiff drivers. Most agree that drivers (and surrounds) become more compliant with time, and eventually reach a point at which they stop changing (as long as the speaker are played on a regular basis). Also, crossover electronics will break in as well...capacitors in particular.
Anyone else who has completed the break-in process have numbers to share?
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Question for M3 Sapphire (and/or X3 & X5) owners...how many hours of break-in were required before the speakers no longer changed characteristics?
The time also depends on the volume at break in and the wattage running. The more power and louder the faster it is. I received my X-5's used and they were still breaking in for a month or so as the prior owner had used a low wattage tube amp.
Crank em up, put it on in the background, leave it on when you leave home, etc and just note the difference every few days and you'll get there.
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definitely a big change at the 50-55 hr mark... as i reported above i am breaking in fairly aggressively
have very clean very high power hegel amp running a tidal hip hop pool party music playlist on repeat via a sonnet morpheus -- at a level a good bit higher than i would ever listen to in my well treated 16x18 listening room, i shut the door, go watch tv upstairs, ignore the boomboom etc etc
wrote clayton an email saying i hope these guys will still remember how to play calmer, classier more adult music than what their steady diet has been since they were born LOL
still getting some unwanted edge and glassiness in lower treble on transients, bass definitely getting fuller fuller more air ambience, very cool to hear the positive changes
the instruction guide states clearly, 'major improvements first 50-100 hrs, gradual continuing improvements up to 400 hrs depending on content and loudness'... it is spot on in my case, lower end of the range...
tonight i will play with placement, spikes/back tilt, start to optimize set up
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To vistablue regarding break-in. Shakeydeal owned the X3s and I own the X5s. We both felt that after the first 100 hrs we heard the the most dramatic improvement. However, we also both found the X series speakers continued to improve well out into the 300 hr range. This may vary depending on how high you have the subwoofer amp set. For example, Don Sachs reports he cranked the subwoofer amp up to max to facilitate subwoofer break-in.
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100-300/400 hours is helpful to know, particularly insofar as evaluation during the 60 day trial period.
For me, 300 hours would arrive on day 50 assuming playing 6 hrs/day.
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update --
at about the 75-80 hr mark now... really taking shape
bass even richer more full-fat so to speak, luscious but fast full of air/ambiance... wow!!!!
still working on that bit of lower treble hardness and a touch of glare at the leading edge of female vocals, especially as the as the signal surges to a higher volume transient
hope that will totally smooth out in the next week or so
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still working on that bit of lower treble hardness and a touch of glare at the leading edge of female vocals, especially as the as the signal surges to a higher volume transient
What about upper register, trumpet or piano forte notes? Hardness, glare or distortion?
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just a touch of glare still, mostly on transients, just a little sibilant
getting better and better little by little day by day
setup: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=171006.80 - page 5 near bottom
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Guys,
Just curious how prone these M3s are in being tipped over or falling forward on their face? Hearing many great things
about them but with kids wasn't sure how easy it would be to push them over if they were bumped.
Thanks,
Wig
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Guys,
Just curious how prone these M3s are in being tipped over or falling forward on their face? Hearing many great things
about them but with kids wasn't sure how easy it would be to push them over if they were bumped.
Thanks,
Wig
I have my M3’s on Isoacoustic Gaia II’s on a pine board hard wood floor. If you bump them they will rock back and forth. My Lab hasn’t knocked them over. :nono: My M3’s are the first generation without the crossover and the tilt back which I would assume is more stabil
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Thanks Audiosaurusrex!
Wig :thumb:
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Guys,
Just curious how prone these M3s are in being tipped over or falling forward on their face? Hearing many great things
about them but with kids wasn't sure how easy it would be to push them over if they were bumped.
Thanks,
Wig
Wig,
M5 Sapphires. The latest model has a "not-crossover"* box mounted on the base that adds some counterweight. The front spikes are also longer than the single rear spike. That gives some backward tilt to the baffles. I just gave mine a couple of good pushes at the top and they did not fall over.
I am using the factory spikes because I don't know how to use GAIAs on the speakers because of the two different spike lengths. I do not think there is enough adjustment in the GAIAs to make up the needed height difference. Perhaps someone with experience can comment.
*not-crossover box because I don't know what else to call it. The box contains capacitors and an inductor but Clayton says it is not a crossover.
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My Gaia's are like suction cups to my laminate floor and require a deliberate tilt to un-suck them. So they're practically glued down! Of course I also have powered woofers which adds even more weight down low. Probably the most tip-resistance speakers I have owned.
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@ Don_S
@ Big Red Machine
Thanks for your responses.
Wig :thumb:
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I can add another. My M5s are the original design with the cast iron L-support in back, instead of the box on a platform.
When I first got them, I had the short spikes on a thick carpet. The left one was near my amp, etc. I had been crouching down fiddling with cables and when I stood up, I accidentally backed into and bumped the speaker, but not terribly hard. It quickly surpassed its center of gravity and once that happens, a direct face plant into the carpeting is inevitable. Damage? The uniwave tweeter was dented upon impact. Otherwise I lucked out.
I felt stupid, of course. Emailed Clayton about it. He advised I use the longer spikes. He also replaced the tweeter in a very, very generous manner. They are very easy to swap out. Now that’s customer service!
I’m telling you because I would have some worries about these heavy vertical panels around small children, or rambunctious dogs. I’ve even placed a large paver stone on each L-brace in case I bump them again or a California tremor decides to make things interesting. Not trying to scare you off at all. Just think about setup possibilities that would minimize the risk of your kids getting into trouble and hurting themselves or your stellar speakers
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217488)
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@ sockpit
Thanks for the information, very helpful.
Wig :thumb:
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My M3 Sapphires in Cherry arrived today. I only had time to put one together, and get the speaker cable off the little monitor that's hidden from view so that I could get a glimpse of where things are headed. I just came home after playing live Grateful Dead through the one speaker for 3.5 hours. Clearly, this is gonna be great!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218011)
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Perhaps someone with experience can comment.
Don_S, for my 3 spikes, I ordered matching Grunge Buster washers from Bernie's Audio. The washers give a good surface to help lock the spike components. My M3 Sapphires make me want to party every day!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=219478)
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Refresher course needed here. Moving speakers.
For M5 Sapphires on hard floors is the configuration short tips on discs in front and adhesive pads in back?
Thanks.