[lextek]

Got caught up in the convinence of computer audio.  Now rediscovering my CDs.  Thinking about trying vinyl.  My question is an entry level (Pro-Ject Debut II w/NAD PP-2) "outperform" an older Marantz DV-8400 w/Cambridge DACMagic?
   As far as source material my taste in music has changed since I bought my LPs and some of my CDs.

[rbbert]

Since you are asking this question in the vinyl circle, you can probably guess what the answers will be.   

[neobop]

I consulted the 8 ball. It said, outlook is doubtful.

[kingdeezie]

This is a very complex question.

Not to many years ago, I was in a very similar situation to yours, and decided to buy a Project 3. I used the table in conjunction with the phono preamp built into my preamp at the time.

The sound was not horrible, and I enjoyed it. It enticed me so much, that I eventually purchased a Michel Gyrodec, Tecnoarm, Phono Preamp, etc ,etc. I spent a significant amount of money.

I slowly came to find that in my situation, given environmental factors, turntable setup, cartridge alignment, an awful static problem I could never resolve, etc, etc, etc, I was never happy.

I eventually sold the turntable, and most of my LPs. The inconvenience of having to purchase two copies of whatever music I wanted did not help me much either.

The long and short of the story is that a budget turntable and phono preamp will let you know that there can be something very special to vinyl, you'll get a taste.

Will it be better then a higher priced digital setup? Not likely. Different perhaps, but not better.

The higher end vinyl stuff is a completely different story, but for me, given the myriad of trials and tribulations that come with owning a turntable, I've moved to digital, computer based audio.

Does it sound as good? Yes and no really... You lose some things you gain some things. There is a naturalness and special breed of realness with the turntables that I miss on some recordings....

If you do not already have a large collection of LPS collecting dust somewhere, I would think long and hard about venturing down this path at all.

Good luck. 

[sebrof]

Got caught up in the convinence of computer audio.  Now rediscovering my CDs.  Thinking about trying vinyl.  My question is an entry level (Pro-Ject Debut II w/NAD PP-2) "outperform" an older Marantz DV-8400 w/Cambridge DACMagic?
   As far as source material my taste in music has changed since I bought my LPs and some of my CDs.

I had the Debut III and a couple of different phono preamps (including a parasound that's similar to the NAD), and a Rega Apollo CDP. Not sure how the Rega and Marantz/Cambridge compare. I never played records, I had about 300 that just sat there.
It wasn't until I got a Rega P3 + Denon DL103r + Musical Surroundings Nova that I started to play records. Records sound at least as good most of the time, but I still don't think records sound way better than CDs on the Apollo. And I would say the analog setup I have now is much better than what you are considering.

If you are doing it for the sound alone, the Pro-ject + NAD setup you mention will definately not get you there. You'll need to upgrade over time.
If you are doing it for other reasons also - Finding used records, tweaking, owning and playing vinyl, then the Pro-ject + NAD will probably get you started. Just know going in that it will cost some money in equipment and in records.

btw: If I have something on CD I don't buy it on vinyl unless it's one of my select few favorite titles

[Photon46]

A definite +1 to what kingdeezie and sebrof advise. Vinyl is usually not easy to get singing at a high level, especially on a low budget. One factor is that the days of finding inexpensive, good quality used vinyl are a rapidly fading memory, demand is driving up prices. Reissues are expensive. There's limited to no availability of new releases if you're into anything but indie or rock. I'm thankful that I acquired a good vinyl music collection before the resurgence of the medium. Both my Marantz Sa11S1 and Arcam FMJ Cd37 can sound so good I forget I'm listening to digital. Admittedly, they need tweaking with good power conditioning, power cables, and Boston Audio tuneblocks to get that level, but they still cost less than my vinyl equipment. Think about what you'll be comfortable spending on equipment in the long run, because if you get bitten by vinyl fever, I think most people end up spending far more than they ever anticipated. 

[Rischa]

I recently went through an almost identical situation; in the process of ripping my CD collection to a hard drive, I fell back in love with the music. I decided that I really didn't care about the convenience of digital, and wanted a system that brought my discs to life instead. I upgraded my old Sony something-or-other CD player to a Cambridge Audio 651c. The improvement in sound was significant, and the Cambridge isn't even a high-end player (best CD player I've ever had, though, and I have no complaints).

A co-worker of mine heard that I'd caught the audiophile bug, and invited me over to listen to some vinyl on his system. He owned some of the same albums on LP that I had on CD, so I was able to compare the two formats. We listened to Keith Jarrett's Koln Concert first, and my jaw hit the floor. The sound was so much clearer and life-like than CD. It was like I was at the concert, rather than listening to a recording. We listened to records all afternoon, and I decided then and there to get a turn-table.

After a lot of online research, and several trips to a local audio shop to audition different record players, I settled on a Rega RP3. It's a beginner table, but I didn't want to go hog-wild right off the bat. The shop was out of the RP3 at the time (wouldn't sell me the demo at a discount, dangit), so while I was waiting for the next shipment, I bought some of my favorite albums on vinyl at a record shop in town and had them vacum cleaned.

When the RP3 finally came in and I got it set-up, I couldn't believe what I was hearing. The Rega just absolutely killed the Cambridge CD player. The music was clearer, deeper, and more life-like than on CD, and not by a small margin. And keep in mind that I was running the Rega through the phono-inputs on my $350 Emotiva USP-1 preamp, so no fancy phono preamp anywhere in the chain. Now the Cd's only come out when listening with the kids or when I just want some back-ground music, and much to my Wife's dismay, a significant amount of our checking account balance goes toward building my LP collection each week ("but you already have so many CD's!!!").

Cambridge Audio 651c: $800

Rega RP3: $1095 with cartridge, $895 without

So, to answer the question, unless you're willing to spend a few thousand on a high-end CD player (don't ask me how high-end you'd have to go), you're likely to get way better results with a comparably priced turn-table. At least, this is my experience. (It's worth noting that most of my vinyl collection is comprised of either brand-new, still in shrink-wrap discs, or used discs that have been cherry-picked by my record store to be in mint condition, so it's easy to make them sound good. That said, I still enjoy my discs that are in less than ideal condition way more than CD.)

[BaMorin]

Birdseye makes complete ready to eat meals. simply pop the package into the opening, close the opening, punch a few digital keys. Presto you have a meal ready to eat. None of that peeling potatos, chopping vegitables, marinating the meat nonsense. You can buy hundereds of them microwave meals and they'll taste the same every time.

[rollo]

  Both formats can give you emotional impact. There are however differences. You may prefer the bass performance of digital. You may prefer the midrange with LP. Tradeoffs really.
   Lets look at dollars. A CDP [ state of the art] that can hold it's own may set you back approx. $3000 a lot more money than a starter TT. The TT will be good to VG in sonics. But no cigar. So called better sonics from a more expensive TT are small. Certainly not bang for the buck. 
   Which format is better is a personal thing. No best just different. If you cannot or will not spend at least $4000 on TT and cart setup get a CDP or DAC. Which one ? that is up to you.
   If you feel that analog is your preferred sound may I suggest a CDP with a tubed output. Kinda both worlds rolled into one. For me the Lector CDP is the ticket. If you can find a 7TL mk 1 used which are hard to find [ no one appears to give them up ] or an equal go for it.  If the sound of digital floats your boat than get the CDP.


charles

[Devil Doc]

Sonics are in the ears of the beholder, or something like that. Vinyl is a lot more fun and a tweekers dream. And to top it all off, most tweaks actually work.

Doc

[Diamond Dog]

     Lets look at dollars. A CDP [ state of the art] that can hold it's own may set you back approx. $3000...

charles

That kind of money gets you into some pretty nice CDP's to be sure...but "state of the art" ? Not so much.

D.D.

[drjjpdc]

Lex,

For a few bucks more get the NAD pp-3. It gives you a USB connection in case you need it.

John

[Letitroll98]

Ref your original question, I think you'd get a more emotionally involving experience from the analog setup, but a little more detail and less distortion from the digital rig.  You didn't mention cartridge, I assume something commiserate like an Ortofon Red, Grado Red, Denon DL110 etc.  As mention previously, your proposed analog set up will give you a taste, and a nice enough taste that it will leave you wanting more.  My suggestion would be to take the same money and buy a nice used rig of higher quality, VPI HW19, Sota Comet, a higher model Music Hall or Project (about the same), a Rega P3, maybe one of the better JVC, Sony, or Technics DD tables.  I prefer the VPI as there are still parts available, easy upgrades still available, and they're built like tanks. 

However, a big one here, is software and other formats.  If you don't have a big vinyl collection already, the best bang for the buck is hi rez digital.  Assuming a larger CD collection than vinyl in place, that software won't suffer being played thru a nice DAC, and you can simply add hi rez files to a computer you prolly already have with no additional expenditure for hardware.  The SQ of 24/96 is approaching vinyl with ever higher rez formats promising even more fidelity.  Of course a lot of assumptions and rambling here, but you asked for opinions.......   

[rajacat]

There's something about the ritual of placing the the record on the TT, running the carbon brush over it and then placing the stylus that involves you in the music. It makes you actually sit down pour yourself a Scotch and listen to the music rather than run around doing other things while the cd spins trouble free in the background.

OTOH if you're going the cd route, I'd ditch the CDP and go with computer based playback which is the cutting edge. IMO the CDP is rapidly becoming obsolete and soon computer served audio systems will become the standard. I haven't used my CDP in years.

I still have a TT, enjoy it immensely and plan to buy a better cart soon. However,my $$ in the future will be  to continuously upgrade my computer served playback system.

[lextek]

There's something about the ritual of placing the the record on the TT, running the carbon brush over it and then placing the stylus that involves you in the music. It makes you actually sit down pour yourself a Scotch and listen to the music rather than run around doing other things while the cd spins trouble free in the background.

OTOH if you're going the cd route, I'd ditch the CDP and go with computer based playback which is the cutting edge. IMO the CDP is rapidly becoming obsolete and soon computer served audio systems will become the standard. I haven't used my CDP in years.

I still have a TT, enjoy it immensely and plan to buy a better cart soon. However,my $$ in the future will be  to continuously upgrade my computer served playback system.

Yeah the ritual.  Right now I'm using a Mac as a server with 2 AppleTVs.  The upstairs spare room has a Bottlehead Crack w/Speedball and Sennheiser HD600s played through the Cambridge Audio DACMagic.  Downstairs we have a B&K HT setup with the Marantz 8400 and B&W P5s.  It all sounds good.  I knew stepping in to vinyl could get very, deep very, quickly.  There is a shop in town.   The Analog Shop in Victor, NY.  Guess I'll spend an afternoon there.  Thanks for the great insight.

[timind]

There's something about the ritual of placing the the record on the TT, running the carbon brush over it and then placing the stylus that involves you in the music. It makes you actually sit down pour yourself a Scotch and listen to the music rather than run around doing other things while the cd spins trouble free in the background.

Aah the ritual...that's why got out of vinyl. It is a good point though.

[eclein]

I just went through this and I found it fun, a unique twist but soon gravitated back to CD's and Computer audio...its so easy to sit with a tablet PC and pick any song or album I own and tap it and listen to it...that fast. Vinyl sounded great but I knew I'd never be able to afford a real nice setup so I still have my stuff and do vinyl once a week or so but being disabled and relying on audio and video for my daily entertainment I got where I wanted to select it play it and change it on a whim and my setup allows that. Vinyl would require much more attention.......it sounds great though...I do love the sound.
 Have fun!!!!

[madog99]

I grew up with vinyl ,was that or 8 track's . I had one table for about 20 years or so , Philips 312 /V15 MKIV . I have since gone through a bunch of tables and still run 3 of them . But if I didn't have a good collection of LP's I would not go down that road today , used CD's sell for $3 ? Used crappy Lp's are sometimes double that , never mind comparing new prices on LP's vs CD's . The cost to get a decent table , cleaning supplies , etc etc far outweighs the cost of a nice CDP . I like both formats and will go LP every time when I shop for new releases , unless the LP is over $30 and the Cd is sitting there at $14.99 . Lp is an endless money pit , but I loves it ! 

[drjjpdc]

Lex,

Do you have the TT yet; bc the Project II is an older model. Project has an entry TT for $299 and the Project III is $369 with cart at Needle Doctor. Now as to vinyl/CD, I was a vinyl guy for years. Then when digital burst on the scene, the allure was too great plus growing kids. Fast forward about 15 years and went back to vinyl after having my ears clogged up with digital. Now I am not a digiphobe, but it is very easy to hear the difference between a CD and an LP of the same recording.

The two pieces you mentioned in the OP will sound a lot better than an equivalent CD player. Also what amplification are you using? To me the difference in vinyl/CD is a lot like different materials/metals in musical instruments (like a flute). When I turn on my system if I am re-organizing or cleaning a CD goes in the drawer, but if I am sitting down to enjoy. vinyl wins everytime! 

Lastly, Rollo I have to disagree with you on the $4000 figure as something you have to spend. I know the budget TT Lex mentioned will blow away any CD player costing 2-3 X the cost of the vinyl setup. And if he really wanted something good he could go with my Clearaudio Concept; $1400 TT and TA, add $100 for their MM cart or splurge for another $800 and get a Micro Benz Ace totals either $1500 or around $2200. Way below the $4000 figure.

[TONEPUB]

I've got six good turntables, but I'd rather have great digital instead of mediocre analog.