AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Discless Circle => Topic started by: mdean109 on 10 Nov 2017, 07:40 pm
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I viewed the first couple of pages to see if this was asked but didn't see anything. I apologize if this has been asked/answered.
I'm using JRiver on my PC to listen to files on my NAS. The PC is hooked up to my pre-amp via a USB (B type) cable. Would getting an external music server (i.e. Aurender) sound any better? It would be hooked up to the NAS and to the pre-amp in the same manner as the PC.
If it would sound better, is it that noticeable? Or is it subtle? I don't want to spend thousands on a music server and only have a little bit better sound. I'd rather take that money and get some hi-res downloads from HDTracks.
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Hi- I have the same question and run the same set up. Win 10 to jRiver and out to a pre w/ DAC. I think an upgrade (at least on other systems I have seen) would be a Mac based system which does not have the driver issue etc. I have heard these Mac server systems and they sound great but so does my Win 10. And while a Mac may be in my future I can stomach that much easier than a five grand server that does the same thing- feed 1s and zeros to your DAC. Although I have had issues in the past with Win10, the driver and jRiver all playing nice. I think if you are not PC savvy a server has some cool features and is simple to run. However I can't see where (nor have I heard) any sort of difference regarding the sound quality of the delivery device. PC, Mac. Server. I would think the quality of your original file and the quality of your DAC/pre would make a difference (a large one) but I don't think we would notice a marked improvement with a 5K server. I'm interested too if others converted over from PC/Mac to a dedicated server and feel they actually heard a difference based on that change.
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Just a thought - I was also using Windows and JRiver and love J River. Look at the Sonore site (an AudioCircle sponsor) at the UltraRendu. You use your PC and JRiver to choose your music, but the ultraRendu takes the signal from the NAS and feeds your DAC a very clean signal. Whether that is better than another high end server I have no idea.
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I use various Apple hardware iMacs and Macbook Pro with stuff like Audirvana Plus and Amarra and their optimizations. I find the sound better with these in comparison to stock stuff like VLC. I've also tweaked my USB out to DAC with Audioquest Jitterbug which also made a nice improvement.
However, even with all this tweaking, I've never gotten the direct computer connection to sound as good as I get with my Bryston BDP-1. Yes, it sounds better across the board for me, but the biggest advantage is that you don't fatigued over time. The music remains involving even after several hours. Audition for a month if possible. You can identify the differences in direct A/B, but to appreciate the differences requires time.
There are three types of players:
1) Local storage playback only from a NAS or hard drive (no separate computer needed)
2) Streaming only (microRendu)
3) Support for both (Bryston BDP players)
For the past 2 years, I used my BDP-1 with my own music on hard drives connected to the unit. Recently, I've switched to using Roon with Bryston which is the best of the world for user interface and sound quality. The Roon Core runs on my iMac. I can access all my music and control it either from my iMac directly or another computer or through a tablet. All the decoding is done on iMac and sent as PCM to the BDP-1 via ethernet, which is better than all the USB stuff I've tried for isolation. Ethernet isn't completely perfect, but still better in my experience than dealing with USB.
https://kb.roonlabs.com/Sound_Quality
http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/usb-vs-ethernet/
http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/ground-hash/
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I also have a BDP-1. My favorite feature is that it behaves like a CD player: it has a remote that does skip to next song, etc. I could control it via an iPad or something but I find that irksome.
And it sounds great.
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Avoid putting a computer in your system if you can. A few years ago I kept looking at streaming devices and what they were comprised of and thought to myself that I could build a better solution for the same or less with much higher grade components. I tried it. I was happy with it. Over $2,000 invested in a dedicated PC with 1.5 TB SSD storage, no moving parts/fans outside of the BD-ROM, and an external power supply.
After 18 months, I decided to pick up AURALiC as a product line. I put the Aries in my main system and it was like a revelation. The electrical noise floor dropped so substantially that I couldn't comprehend what was going on. I still use my PC, but I don't use it in a 2 channel system. It was a big waste of $$$ and I tell customers constantly to avoid making the same mistake.
Not every streamer is a good fit though. While the AURALiC gear does exceptionally well with the noise, I have not heard the same about another big entry-level streaming device on the market. Their device was a direct competitor to the Aries Mini and I've had nothing but complaints from those who have owned the 'other' brand. Unfortunately the Mini is discontinued so the 'other' brand has no direct competitor on the market at that $500 target.
If you are thinking like I did and believe you can best a well designed, well thought out and optimized streamer, please, PLEASE get that idea out of your head. It will only lead to a poor investment that you will regret if you ever get a dedicated streamer in the system.
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DSkip
According to the owner of Auralic the Mini is not permanently discontinued but rather in production hiatus while the Series 2 products are ramp up. An alternative would be the Innuos Zen Mini. Another option would be the OPPO Sonica which in addition to being a wireless streamer is also a very good DAC. I own both an Aries and a Mini so I am familiar with what they bring to the table.
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Avoid putting a computer in your system if you can. A few years ago I kept looking at streaming devices and what they were comprised of and thought to myself that I could build a better solution for the same or less with much higher grade components. I tried it. I was happy with it. Over $2,000 invested in a dedicated PC with 1.5 TB SSD storage, no moving parts/fans outside of the BD-ROM, and an external power supply.
After 18 months, I decided to pick up AURALiC as a product line. I put the Aries in my main system and it was like a revelation. The electrical noise floor dropped so substantially that I couldn't comprehend what was going on. I still use my PC, but I don't use it in a 2 channel system. It was a big waste of $$$ and I tell customers constantly to avoid making the same mistake.
Not every streamer is a good fit though. While the AURALiC gear does exceptionally well with the noise, I have not heard the same about another big entry-level streaming device on the market. Their device was a direct competitor to the Aries Mini and I've had nothing but complaints from those who have owned the 'other' brand. Unfortunately the Mini is discontinued so the 'other' brand has no direct competitor on the market at that $500 target.
If you are thinking like I did and believe you can best a well designed, well thought out and optimized streamer, please, PLEASE get that idea out of your head. It will only lead to a poor investment that you will regret if you ever get a dedicated streamer in the system.
With all due respect, I don't think most of us went out and dropped $2K on a PC based server. My Lenovo i5 powered Desktop (rather modest and used concurrently for work etc) sits right next to my amps and pre. I just did some tweeks, got a decent USB cable and bought jRiver. It sounds great. I have had a "dedicated" laptop as a server and that stunk- mostly due to Win 10 vs driver(s) vs jRiver. I would like to build a Mac server, but then I like these type of projects. However to your point, I think a great end goal is a designed streamer. I like what Jim Salk came up with. At the moment though, I'm getting good results from my home grown apparatus.
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I believe theoretically a dedicated music server would out perform a general use computer (like I use).
But it seems that the real question is, at what point does this become a limiting factor in overall system performance (or make a significant difference)?
Each of us must determine what the weak link is in our systems. But it also seems that we all have certain aspects of audio that pushes our buttons (for me it's room and speakers, thus I still use my laptop and I'm staying with my DSPeaker after trialing Schiit Gungnir MB and Freya).
My guess, I'd need a $20k system in my near perfect room and ditch Redbook before moving up to a dedicated server.
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It's both hardware and software. Remember that. Amarra and Audirvana both rely on this extensively. Even if you don't own Amarra, you can still use their optimization scripts. The restart is required for all the changes to take place. I don't know how well the optimization script works with the latest OS X, but 3-4 years ago, when I used Amarra, it made a big difference. Here's their recommendation:
http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/howtobuildaserver.php
The Bryston guys built their own stripped down Linux version for just audio use. Nothing extra.
I'd definitely recommend buying something used the first time to see how it fits in your rig. If you don't like it, you can sell it for minimal or no loss. I only considered the idea of a dedicated music player based on first hand experience of how far I could take my Macbook Pro at the time with the software players, software, media storage, and hardware adjustment.
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Before I got the BDP-1 I had an SMS-200 which was a great little streamer. Reason I replaced it was I didn't want to go down the USB "enhancement" rabbit hole (black hole, more like).
The SMS-200 had some nice advantages: it's very small, very reliable and reasonably easy to use and not crazy expensive.
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I use a dedicated laptop running Windows 10, Fidelizer, and Jriver media center. Music is on a USB hard drive. I have stuck with a pc because this is a dynamic frequently changing format. New things and better hardware is a on going consideration. I will wait for the format to mature before investing in a dedicated component. I need to mention use of a Regan and AQ carbon cables. Don't forget to use a quality cable on your USB hard drive also.
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File formats (ALAC, WAV, AIFF, FLAC) have been standard for a long time now. Regardless, they are all decoded to the same PCM stream. 2 channel stereo simply doesn't consume much bandwidth. PCM is going nowhere! The final endpoint that receives the PCM doesn't need to do much, and in fact the goal should be to minimize the work at that location.
Now, the computer where the music is stored, decoded, running multiple zones, applies DSP definitely benefits from better technology. I agree the software capabilities is changing fast on that end and the hardware for that computer needs to be up to the task. However, I'm using a Late 2009 Core 2 Duo iMac and it runs Roon perfectly with my DSP in use. During playback, there is no difference between that 2009 iMac and my newer SSD Retina i7 Macbook Pro.
I'd definitely invest and pick ethernet over USB based on my own testing. Network fiber is the best by definition and I hope more manufacturers will provide fiber inputs. Right now, they are only in expensive products. With fiber, the discussion of cables and incoming noise is eliminated.
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I switched from PC to SOtM sMS-200 to feed my DAC via USB and I have noticed a big improvement in SQ.
I also noticed a big improvement over my Sonos as SPDIF source by adding iFi iPurifier.
If you replace the PC with NAA like SMS-200, uRendu, etc, you still need a computer of some sort to run the music player software.
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With all due respect, I don't think most of us went out and dropped $2K on a PC based server. My Lenovo i5 powered Desktop (rather modest and used concurrently for work etc) sits right next to my amps and pre. I just did some tweeks, got a decent USB cable and bought jRiver. It sounds great. I have had a "dedicated" laptop as a server and that stunk- mostly due to Win 10 vs driver(s) vs jRiver. I would like to build a Mac server, but then I like these type of projects. However to your point, I think a great end goal is a designed streamer. I like what Jim Salk came up with. At the moment though, I'm getting good results from my home grown apparatus.
My point was that even after trying to optimize a computer to do the job with high quality, hand-picked parts, it didn't compare to even a decent streamer.
As far as your laptop - if your sound is going through the windows driver, it will sound bad. This is why I can't listen to Tidal on my computer. Just as big of an issue is the power supply and mechanical noise that it produces. A desktop unit will sound better, especially with JRiver, but it will not compete with a decent $500 streamer. I'm not even sure it would compete with something like the Chromecast but I haven't tested that to confirm so its just a thought.
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I have two Windows 10 music severs (dedicated small low power PCs) and two PCs with JRiver and now have a Lumin U1 (http://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-u1.html) in the main system
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I've been using a PC for digital audio playback since 2002 - long before USB DACs arrived. I used a simple USB to S/PDIF converter that was available then to my Counterpoint DAC. Not the best setup, but at that time convenience and ease of use were more important.
I've tried a couple of different dedicated players/streamers since then - still have a Pioneer N50, though I don't use it much. The setup has improved with the arrival of the USB dacs and better playback software and the sound has improved. I just prefer the convenience of using a PC with its larger screen and being able to create playlists quickly using a mouse vs having to have a phone or touchscreen tablet jacked into the network or having to rely on the tiny displays of most player/streamers.
I also like the fact that I am able to choose what dac I listen to vs the one in the player/streamer. Yes you can add a dac to those, but why pay twice to get the sound you want.
Anyway, just my two, two and half cents worth.
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I've been using a PC for digital audio playback since 2002 - long before USB DACs arrived. I used a simple USB to S/PDIF converter that was available then to my Counterpoint DAC. Not the best setup, but at that time convenience and ease of use were more important.
I've tried a couple of different dedicated players/streamers since then - still have a Pioneer N50, though I don't use it much. The setup has improved with the arrival of the USB dacs and better playback software and the sound has improved. I just prefer the convenience of using a PC with its larger screen and being able to create playlists quickly using a mouse vs having to have a phone or touchscreen tablet jacked into the network or having to rely on the tiny displays of most player/streamers.
I also like the fact that I am able to choose what dac I listen to vs the one in the player/streamer. Yes you can add a dac to those, but why pay twice to get the sound you want.
Anyway, just my two, two and half cents worth.
You can still control a streamer via uPnP in most cases so the interface shouldn't be an issue for most. This requires a little more work but can get you where you want and get the computer out of the way.
For what its worth, the noise of a computer might not be apparent in some systems. I used a generic PC for about a year, but it took me a while to find a DAC that actually sounded better than the Pioneer BDP-51fd I was using at the time for CD playback. I felt like it was the best I could do at the time, but this was also before decent 'budget' streamers were on the market. You couldn't hardly find one under four figures at the time.
To the OP - have you considered a Raspberry Pi solution?
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I would love to hear more about the Pi application? either here or off line. Don't want to hi jack a thread....
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Wow! I needed help and the cavalry came! Thanks for all of the recommendations.
My PC
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- Core i7
- 16 GB RAM
- 2 - 500 GB SSD drives. (1 for OS, 1 for Data - but no music stored there)
- Win 10 update that allows for higher res files
- JRiver app
- Music files on my Synology NAS (2x 4TB drives in a RAID 1 config)
My responses and proposed actions:
1) I'm going to look into all of the recommendations made here. I appreciate everyone's help very much!!
2) I have thought about Raspberry Pi but wasn't sure if that would be better than my dedicated PC.
3) I'm going to swap out the USB cable for an Ethernet cable.
4) If I don't replace the PC with a dedicated streamer, I'll run a longer Ethernet cable so I can move it out of sight.
Pros:
- More power than I'll ever need
- I use it to run the Tidal & Pandora desktop apps (higher res than when using the web browser)
- I have it hooked up to my projector and 110" screen (both left by the former owners :thumb: )
Cons:
- It's an eyesore in my listening room.
- Probably has more noise than I understand. (But, admittedly, I can't hear any noise.)
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You can still control a streamer via uPnP in most cases so the interface shouldn't be an issue for most. This requires a little more work but can get you where you want and get the computer out of the way.
For what its worth, the noise of a computer might not be apparent in some systems. I used a generic PC for about a year, but it took me a while to find a DAC that actually sounded better than the Pioneer BDP-51fd I was using at the time for CD playback. I felt like it was the best I could do at the time, but this was also before decent 'budget' streamers were on the market. You couldn't hardly find one under four figures at the time.
To the OP - have you considered a Raspberry Pi solution?
Perhaps I'm a bit slow, but how does controlling a streamer via uPnP eliminate the need for a smart phone or a tablet? And making music selections and building playlists via a touchscreen may be second nature for some, but it's not particularly appealing to me or "most" of the other old guys I know, at least. I don't see it as a trivial aspect of playing stored digital music. I realize using a PC is not necessarily "cool" or trendy, but it's still much more convenient and efficient for some of us.
As to the DACs in the two Player/streamers I have used, both were passable but my other standalone DACs sound considerably better to me.
So, I guess it's just a matter of personal preference based on experience and background.
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You can use a UPnP capable player on your computer e.g. JRiver. Or (depending on your setup) a UPnP controller like Linn Kazoo or Kinsky.
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Avoid putting a computer in your system if you can. A few years ago I kept looking at streaming devices and what they were comprised of and thought to myself that I could build a better solution for the same or less with much higher grade components. I tried it. I was happy with it. Over $2,000 invested in a dedicated PC with 1.5 TB SSD storage, no moving parts/fans outside of the BD-ROM, and an external power supply.
After 18 months, I decided to pick up AURALiC as a product line. I put the Aries in my main system and it was like a revelation. The electrical noise floor dropped so substantially that I couldn't comprehend what was going on. I still use my PC, but I don't use it in a 2 channel system. It was a big waste of $$$ and I tell customers constantly to avoid making the same mistake.
Not every streamer is a good fit though. While the AURALiC gear does exceptionally well with the noise, I have not heard the same about another big entry-level streaming device on the market. Their device was a direct competitor to the Aries Mini and I've had nothing but complaints from those who have owned the 'other' brand. Unfortunately the Mini is discontinued so the 'other' brand has no direct competitor on the market at that $500 target.
If you are thinking like I did and believe you can best a well designed, well thought out and optimized streamer, please, PLEASE get that idea out of your head. It will only lead to a poor investment that you will regret if you ever get a dedicated streamer in the system.
The lesson isn't avoid a PC. The lesson is focus on the power supply. A dedicated streamer isn't any better unless its power supply is better.
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Power supplies are important in how much noise they generate and put back in the mains, but that's not the only thing important thing for a streamer, especially that will be near a DAC and other sensitive components. EMI is also of concern. For example, putting a linear power supply on my iMac or Macbook Pro will be helpful, but it still won't solve EMI. Traditional computers will put out quite a bit of airborne interference.
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The lesson isn't avoid a PC. The lesson is focus on the power supply. A dedicated streamer isn't any better unless its power supply is better.
Agree 100%. If you can find one with linear power supply and SS drive check it out. INNOUS anybody ?
charles
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Power supplies are important in how much noise they generate and put back in the mains, but that's not the only thing important thing for a streamer, especially that will be near a DAC and other sensitive components. EMI is also of concern. For example, putting a linear power supply on my iMac or Macbook Pro will be helpful, but it still won't solve EMI. Traditional computers will put out quite a bit of airborne interference.
I starded made usb cables wit EMI filter and ESD protection with a small circuit it will become parts of cable merged and soldered inside the A plug.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=171284)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=171285)
This eliminate , if exist, spurious ELectomagnetic interference and eventually protect devices unwanted electrostatic discharge
It’s hard to know exactly what’s going on in the following comparison, but as far as I can tell the effects of this seemingly simple circuit are quite significant.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=171281)
Unfiltered plug have lot of noise on the left.
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Buying a linear power supply to run a PC will have mixed results with the overall system.
The motherboard has built in switching power supplies to run anything that needs less than the 12VDC-19VDC the external power supply needs. Typically they have 5VDC, 3.3VDC. 1.25VDC and others depending on the CPU and memory used.
It is more about the motherboard power supply design, power requirements and grounding.
An aluminum chassis usually helps a lot with EMI with good grounding.
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With all of these choices and considerations to think about, I probably should have just purchased a good pair of headphones and plugged them into my iPhone. (just kidding :green: )
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I should note (in a post on the previous page) that the two dedicated music servers I have were built by HAL. So he really knows his stuff.
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Phil A,
Thanks!
Glad you are still enjoying them! :D
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I power my os and music SSD with lt3045s and use SSD to m2 adapter next to cpu. The rest is off seasonic smps. It's certainly possible the auralic sounds better but...I doubt it. The problem with PCs is you have to keep updating and comparing hardware. Kaby lake and new W10 creative drivers alone outclass previous generation.
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First of all, I believe people are making this too hard and expensive. Your PC can be in another room and use JRiver as a server as long as you have an Ethernet connection. You can use a Raspberry Pi as a renderer with Rune Music Player. http://www.runeaudio.com/
The Raspberry Pi is cheap and you can add a iFi power supply. The usb out from the Raspberry Pi to your Pre/dac. You get rid off all the PC noise. This works extremely well and will sound better than you PC usb out to your Pre/dac. You can also upsample from JRiver to the Pi. You can control your JRiver server from your listening chair. Total cost under $150. You will notice a instant difference and your PC/Server is still being used.
I have owned 3 different servers and they are over rated IMO. My laptop/JRiver server always works and sounds good. My 2 cents.....
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Well, I certainly like the price compared to a dedicated music server! I am using JRiver with my tablet to control the music. The other night I signed up for Roon and I'm assuming that too can be controlled via a tablet.
First of all, I believe people are making this too hard and expensive. Your PC can be in another room and use JRiver as a server as long as you have an Ethernet connection. You can use a Raspberry Pi as a renderer with Rune Music Player. http://www.runeaudio.com/ (http://www.runeaudio.com/)
The Raspberry Pi is cheap and you can add a iFi power supply. The usb out from the Raspberry Pi to your Pre/dac. You get rid off all the PC noise. This works extremely well and will sound better than you PC usb out to your Pre/dac. You can also upsample from JRiver to the Pi. You can control your JRiver server from your listening chair. Total cost under $150. You will notice a instant difference and your PC/Server is still being used.
I have owned 3 different servers and they are over rated IMO. My laptop/JRiver server always works and sounds good. My 2 cents.....
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You can use a microrendu or ultra Rendu if you want to spend more. I'm sure the urendu will sound better. Digital is an ever changing world right now.
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mdean109, I just move to the latest Roon and the improvement in SQ from the others I tried was very nice. I started with Pure Music then went to JRiver then HQPlayer with Roon than to Daphile and now the latest Roon each one was a step up in SQ with the latest Roon being a real step up. Yes you can control Roon with a tablet.
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If one is using a dedicated streamer, does this matter as much?
I would think it does not. I may be quite wrong.
I get that the power supply for the streamer, and the architecture of the streamer matters.
I am using either a Logitech Touch (with LPS from Channel Islands Audio) or a hacked Pogoplug (running a Linux distro that fools it into thinking it is a Touch) as my streamer. I use an external DAC. I use a dedicated netbook for my "server" running Logitech Media Server.
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MikeEastman,
I'm glad you mentioned about the SQ with Roon. I experienced the same effect - going from JRiver to Roon - but thought I was just imagining it. Since I wasn't expecting it to sound better - just easier to use - I dismissed the idea of the placebo effect very quickly.
mdean109, I just move to the latest Roon and the improvement in SQ from the others I tried was very nice. I started with Pure Music then went to JRiver then HQPlayer with Roon than to Daphile and now the latest Roon each one was a step up in SQ with the latest Roon being a real step up. Yes you can control Roon with a tablet.
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The thing I really notice with Roon, is how clean my system sounds now, it's like a veil was lifted. If you had told me that my system sounded even a little veiled before I won't have believed it, even my wife noticed the difference.
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Prior to Roon, we're you using a bridge or Renderer?
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For Pure Music and JRiver I was using a modded Mac mini feeding an exasound dac. I now have a complete Mivera front end. Server running Linux with ethernet to optical coverer to streamer to Dac. This set up blows away anything I had before.
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Mivera is now oem only. Anyone know who bought the streamer line?