Caps Vs Cabling

werd · « **on:** 27 Jul 2010, 11:23 pm »

Hello Folks

No doubt upgrading internals like caps are a great way of improving what we hear. I am wondering if the type of differences you get with caps can be had and are on the same par as selecting cables?. In other words, do we even need to swap out caps when swapping cabling might just do the same thing?

I only say this because i have heard it mentioned on this board that cap differences are not value but the result of their different materials. So to me it seems somewhat like just swapping out different cables, and notnecessarily speaker cables. Its kind of a tough question i know........

jtwrace · « **Reply #1 on:** 27 Jul 2010, 11:25 pm »

Man, I'm soooooooooo tired of these cable discussions.

emac · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 12:12 am »

Tough question since I've done cap changes where I haven't noticed an iota of difference and others where there is a very clear one. Same type of things w/ cables. But overall, I'd say that the cap changes have a more pronounced sonic change than the cables, especially when you use higher quality caps, like Sonicap Platinums.

Light-Echo · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 12:49 am »

I like the question werd. And thx for the useful reply emac.

I myself have not read every response to every post so I did not know it's apparently been discussed before. I generally open up the forum and read the new posts. Thanks for yours.

Regards
Dave

werd · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 03:46 pm »

Quote from: emac on 28 Jul 2010, 12:12 am

Tough question since I've done cap changes where I haven't noticed an iota of difference and others where there is a very clear one. Same type of things w/ cables. But overall, I'd say that the cap changes have a more pronounced sonic change than the cables, especially when you use higher quality caps, like Sonicap Platinums.

I have never done cap improvements in any of my speakers. Its makes me wonder though how much of an effect the cap upgrade would make on my speak cable ?

Has anyone ever felt the need to have to change out their speaker cable after doing a cap mod?

corndog71 · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 04:06 pm »

Into the rabbit hole we go...

I got into this hobby after hearing the effects of different cables. That was around 16 years ago. I started with Kimber Kables and still use them today. I also use Homegrownaudio wire for internal wire as well as interconnects. Braided cables just sound more open and unrestricted vs. other types of cables.

Only in the last couple of years have I embraced the differences in caps. It started in my vacuum tube projects and eventually moved over to speaker crossovers.

I hope you realize this is a sensitive topic as there are many that don't believe in "better" parts/wires. I don't have a problem with being skeptical. It's when people make blanket statements against these upgrades without any experience themselves that I get annoyed. They instill their own bias by being too skeptical. At least that's how I see it.

Anyway, you can ask a ton of questions but you won't understand the real differences until you do your own experiments and try them yourself. I do recommend reading as much as you can before buying. But at some point you will have to take the plunge and listen for yourself.

Some differences are minor or subtle and some can take a componant or speaker to the next level. Also consider that everything from source to speaker has an effect on the sound. Good luck!

werd · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 04:12 pm »

Quote from: corndog71 on 28 Jul 2010, 04:06 pm

Into the rabbit hole we go...

I got into this hobby after hearing the effects of different cables. That was around 16 years ago. I started with Kimber Kables and still use them today. I also use Homegrownaudio wire for internal wire as well as interconnects. Braided cables just sound more open and unrestricted vs. other types of cables.

Only in the last couple of years have I embraced the differences in caps. It started in my vacuum tube projects and eventually moved over to speaker crossovers.

I hope you realize this is a sensitive topic as there are many that don't believe in "better" parts/wires. I don't have a problem with being skeptical. It's when people make blanket statements against these upgrades without any experience themselves that I get annoyed. They instill their own bias by being too skeptical. At least that's how I see it.

Anyway, you can ask a ton of questions but you won't understand the real differences until you do your own experiments and try them yourself. I do recommend reading as much as you can before buying. But at some point you will have to take the plunge and listen for yourself.

Some differences are minor or subtle and some can take a componant or speaker to the next level. Also consider that everything from source to speaker has an effect on the sound. Good luck!

Hello

i am not interested in a debate at all. Completely turned off by it right not. I am just asking for subjective testimonial. People's own opinions thats all. Negative posts are fine to me just so long as they are accompanied by an experience. None of those blanket (it doesn't make a diff crap) statements.

eclein · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 04:22 pm »

I was thinking about upgrading the caps or whatever resides in my vintage JBL crossover..are there better caps for speakers as opposed to
other components?? I have never done anything like this so I would be interested if it makes a substantial positive improvement in general to the sound of ones speakers?

Danny Richie · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 04:24 pm »

I think you'll find that both cables and caps make a noticeable improvement but neither are dependent on the other.

When you start down this road you may find many notable and subtle changes from various areas. By the time you are done, a lot of little things can really add up to some really big differences.

Don't be afraid to try this or that to see for yourself.

chlorofille · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 04:28 pm »

Hi werd,

I did some cable swaps from braided silver to solid core but the differences were too small to detect. I did find a noticeable change in the upper octave of my system when I changed the single cap of my tweeter's crossover from a Mundorf M-Cap to an Ampohm Paper in oil, alu foil cap. The previously bright top end transformed to rich and slightly mellow. The amp im using is a single ended class A delivering 3-5 watts which is extremely revealing to minute component changes.

eclein : I personally like the Mundorf M-Caps and bet they would be a huge improvement over the stock ones in the JBL. If you get a chance to upgrade the stok inductors to Foil types it would be a SICK sound !! *drool*

werd · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 04:33 pm »

Quote from: chlorofille on 28 Jul 2010, 04:28 pm

Hi werd,

I did some cable swaps from braided silver to solid core but the differences were too small to detect. I did find a noticeable change in the upper octave of my system when I changed the single cap of my tweeter's crossover from a Mundorf M-Cap to an Ampohm Paper in oil, alu foil cap. The previously bright top end transformed to rich and slightly mellow. The amp im using is a single ended class A delivering 3-5 watts which is extremely revealing to minute component changes.

eclein : I personally like the Mundorf M-Caps and bet they would be a huge improvement over the stock ones in the JBL. If you get a chance to upgrade the stok inductors to Foil types it would be a SICK sound !! *drool*

Hi cholorfille

Thats great !!, is that what you were trying to accomplish in taming the bright tweeter?, and if so did you try different cabling before to try and fix that?

whoops edit, read the first sentence on your post..hehe

Danny Richie · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 04:34 pm »

Quote from: eclein on 28 Jul 2010, 04:22 pm

I was thinking about upgrading the caps or whatever resides in my vintage JBL crossover..are there better caps for speakers as opposed to
other components?? I have never done anything like this so I would be interested if it makes a substantial positive improvement in general to the sound of ones speakers?

I try all kinds of different caps in the speaker applications. I have tried to find what is good or middle of the road for no money and what is near the top of the performance scale without getting into crazy money.

At the bottom level of value are polypropylene caps from Solen, Axon, Erse, even some of the Dayton caps fall into that range. None of these caps are even remotely expensive but are a nice step up in performance over the electrolytic caps used back in the day or in todays cheap speakers.

Of those I prefer the Erse poly caps and stock them in all values. I have also been able to step them up in performance by by-passing them with a small .1uF Sonicap and still not spend to much doing that. I offer this combo with our standard kits.

A jump up from that has been the Sonicaps. They are clean sounding and impart less coloration than other comparable caps. Pricey compared to the cheap stuff but not crazy. If I could find better for the money then I'd be using them.

Caps are always the most substantial upgrade for crossovers. Resistor upgrades are less noticeable. Inductor upgrades can vary. Going from an Iron core slug to an air core is pretty noticeable. Differences between various air core inductors are subtle.

corndog71 · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 04:40 pm »

I've upgraded caps, resistors, and inductors and found them all to be superior in performance to whatever stock parts were used. I've done this to Definitive, Polk, Klipsch, and AV123.

I've come to the conclusion that when it comes to commercially made speakers the stock crossover almost always gets left with really cheap parts because most people aren't even aware of it and it gets hidden inside where nobody can see it. This is primarily done to meet price points.

I've even seen on manufacturer schematics listing parts chosen strictly for their small size so they'll fit on a tiny little circuit board attached to the terminal cup which in turn fits in a small hole in the back of the cabinet. Size and convenience of assembly beat out part quality and in turn sound quality.

Caps I would recommend are basically what Danny uses: Sonicaps for premium sound and Erse if you're on a budget.

I would avoid most of the caps at Parts Express. Especially those cheap Daytons. Solens and Jantzen are ok but for not much more Erse does a better job. I have tried the OIMP and teflon V-Caps in my tube gear and found the latter to be really good in that application. Never tried them in speakers though. They're freakin expensive.

After reading about the Clarity Caps in the other thread I'm really curious to try those.

eclein · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 04:52 pm »

So when performing/choosing the upgrade do you take in consideration what caps your gear currently runs so as not to over sweeten or under tighten the sound??
I have a Virtue TWO.2 with Auricaps, no clue whats in the DAC but I know that with tubes you can go to far in any one direction, is it the same with caps??
I guess it couldn't hurt to dig up info on the caps I have in all my stuff...that way I could try and make a decision based on sound qualities inherent to each cap and try and get a nice blend from the start instead of shooting blindly. I will gather the info and post it here for feedback and then make choices-sounds like a plan!!!

werd · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 04:55 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 28 Jul 2010, 04:24 pm

I think you'll find that both cables and caps make a noticeable improvement but neither are dependent on the other.

When you start down this road you may find many notable and subtle changes from various areas. By the time you are done, a lot of little things can really add up to some really big differences.

Don't be afraid to try this or that to see for yourself.

I am not fully convinced of this, but i am driven by my own subjective/ear beliefs. and you know how hard that can be to beat down into submission. The part of about being neither dependant.

Eclein, you have those new wywires speaker cables. Maybe there is a better cap match for them

?. You speakers are old enough where under any circumstance they are probably due for an upgrade i would imagine. Your cross overs are probably not performing to spec.

eclein · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 05:03 pm »

Plus I'm feeling the need to try my hand at some kind of DIY project...caps, soldering iron, solder, nicked up knuckles seems the way to go.
Hey by the way is a soldering "gun" or "Iron" better...I have used soldering iron/pencil back in my youth but is there a dandy new invention out there I haven't heard about??

corndog71 · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 05:21 pm »

I just use the cheap 30 and 40 watt irons from Radio Shack along with their clear flux solder.

chlorofille · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 05:27 pm »

Quote from: werd on 28 Jul 2010, 04:33 pm

Hi cholorfille

is that what you were trying to accomplish in taming the bright tweeter?,

Hi,

Yup it was done to tame the tweeter as it has a 3dB 15kHz peak so I figured a non-electrical solution would be the least intrusive. Ironically, this led to the use of an electrical component (the cap) but was not in the form of a notch filter.

Quote from: corndog71 on 28 Jul 2010, 05:21 pm

I just use the cheap 30 and 40 watt irons from Radio Shack along with their clear flux solder.

Same thing here. It does a good job for crossover soldering.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #18 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 05:58 pm »

Quote from: werd on 28 Jul 2010, 04:55 pm

I am not fully convinced of this, but i am driven by my own subjective/ear beliefs. and you know how hard that can be to beat down into submission. The part of about being neither dependant.

You can always tell me everything about your system and I can make recommendations.

I can also send you various cables to try (free demo) just to see what works for you in your system.

werd · « **Reply #19 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 05:59 pm »

Quote from: chlorofille on 28 Jul 2010, 05:27 pm

Hi,

Yup it was done to tame the tweeter as it has a 3dB 15kHz peak so I figured a non-electrical solution would be the least intrusive. Ironically, this led to the use of an electrical component (the cap) but was not in the form of a notch filter.

Same thing here. It does a good job for crossover soldering.

Hi

Bryston's main change in the 4Bsst to the sst/2 was a cap change. It took it from bright to a more liquid high frequency (I owned both). I am beginning to think caps might be more of a quick fix here for taming bright highs than cabling.