AudioCircle
Community => Non-audio hobbies and interests => The Culinary Circle => Topic started by: JohnR on 24 Sep 2018, 01:17 pm
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https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/25/essential-kitchen-knives_n_2545628.html
Without further ado, the only three knives your kitchen really needs:
1. An 8” Chef’s Knife
2. A Paring Knife
3. A Bread Knife
What say you? Is this good advice? Is there anyone that actually only has three knives? How many do you have?
(This same advice is all over the place, this article is just an example.)
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https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/25/essential-kitchen-knives_n_2545628.html
What say you? Is this good advice? Is there anyone that actually only has three knives? How many do you have?
(This same advice is all over the place, this article is just an example.)
This advice is good for those who prepare/eat the standard American diet IMO. My "go-to three" list would be; 7" Santoku, Chinese cleaver, 110-120mm petty knife (similar to a paring knife.) Those three and a 6.5-7" Nakiri cover 85% of our cooking and we're in the kitchen every day cooking. We've got three or four Santoku knives with different profiles, blade thicknesses, metallurgies. We also have a cheap little 4.5" Tosagata chopping knife that's pretty handy for things like garlic, ginger, and scallion prep.
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I use a nakiri more than a chef knife. I cook with lots of onions and peppers. Of course, a paring knife is essential. After that, my Santoku is pulled from the block next. I probably use a bread knife more than my chef knife. If I need to cut a lot of meat, then I reach for my 12" F. Dick chef knife.
But having said that, if I had to, I could cook with a good laser 10" chef knife, a paring knife, and a bread knife.
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I also like a utility knife with a size between the chef's and the paring.
You may also want some duplicates in case the knife you want to use is dirty and it's faster to grab a clean one than wash the dirty one.
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With emphasis on the "really need" criteria, I would agree completely. Where it comes into play even moreso is that you can buy three really good knives for the price of some "everything and a block" kit of marginal quality. You don't need a knife block with three knives, plus it's kid-safe to keep them in the drawer versus on the counter, and if your working knives are not part of some boutique kitchen display, things like matching sets, fancy handles, and brand name doesn't matter.
Of course that doesn't preclude you from adding others as time goes on and you see a genuine need, but to be honest I don't use more than those three (although I use a filleting knife instead of a paring knife, which I find somewhat more versatile as it can also work as a boning knife. On the other hand a good paring knife with plastic handle can be bought for $5). The bread knife is also a cake knife, or you could substitute a cake knife and use it on breads.
That just leaves a beefy fork for your thrice-yearly turkey carving and the occasional beef roast, some good kitchen shears or scissors (I use mine every single day) and a good steel to keep them sharp. The latter is not optional, and you will do much better with cheap kitchen knives and a steel than any high quality knife that rarely or never gets sharpened. If you ever get the opportunity to watch an accomplished chef working in a commercial kitchen, they don't generally have expensive knife sets at the ready (they wear them out too often for that) but the steel gets used hourly.
For a chef's knife you could use a Japanese style instead, and one with the divots along the blade make it even more versatile, as starchy foods like potoatoes won't stick, as well as some vegetables. I don't find it a huge problem, but if you're buying, may as well look for the feature. The length is somewhat cook's preference, but I think you will find that if you select the length based on your cutting surface ... shorter if you use a cutting board, longer if you have a large surface to work on ... you may find it works well on a practical basis.
Speaking of knives, the "steak knife set" is also a waste of time and money in my experience ... any steak you cannot cut with an ordinary table knife is a steak that you haven't mastered how to cook. The solution isn't buying knives.
How many do I have? Maybe 100. But I used (and needed) a knife every day in my work, and many are just collectibles. I've cooked entire meals for parties of 4 to 12 with just a Buck 112 folder, and that included butchering fresh-killed meat, fowl, or fish, but that was because I had to resort to my back-up. Just takes a bit more time and results in somewhat more ragged deep cuts.
in the kitchen, the "Big three" get used 99% of the time.
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If I were to try to figure out what I actually use it would likely look like:
7 inch Chef's knife
Paring knife
Kitchen/poultry shears
I do have a block with a number of knives, some of which are used 1-2 times a year, but worth keeping at this point.
IF I were starting all over, and was shopping only for me, I would likely scale all the way back to what I listed. But there are others that use the kitchen, and have their own preferences.
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Those three are really all I use.
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Chef Jean Pierre says I can have 5 or 6 knives (HE has 200). Whew.
https://youtu.be/eLYnG81ATHw
How come nobody uses a carving knife? Just use the Chef's knife?
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How come nobody uses a carving knife? Just use the Chef's knife?
Because I don't think there are many of us cutting meat away from the bone. Most buy pre-cut meat at the grocery store. I guess you could use one to fillet fish, but most guys that do that a lot have a fillet knife.
Now I would think a pro would need a carving knife if breaking down large chunks.
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I haven't read this before John, very interesting to think about.
Mostly I just use the 10" chef knife for everything from cutting up veggies to cutting up meat.
The paring knife is handy for fruit and of course IF I'm cutting bread a bread knife.
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I tend to use a carving knife about 2-3 times a year. Usually only for turkey (cooked whole), and even then when I render down a bird before a meal, only the breast meat gets "carved" the dark is usually harvested with a paring size knife.
I buy whole chickens a lot too, though I usually quarter them before BBQ - thus using the poultry shears in prep vs the carving knife after cooking.
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I use an 8" knife, a 6" knife and a 3" knife and that covers the large majority of my needs. The real key is getting them and keeping them very very sharp.
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I use an 8" Chef's knife 98% of the time. Wife uses a 5" or 6" knife most of the time. I have a 10" chef's knife for the occasional watermelon or cantaloupe. Yeah, most of us probably own far too many knives than we really need.
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Not sure about a couple of Jean Pierre's knives. How does he keep those serrated edges sharp eh?
A narrower knife for carving chicken or legs of something on the bone certainly makes sense. At the extreme, I've got a ham knife that's 30cm long and only 2cm deep but it's virtue is that it can cut a curve through meat that is relatively firm [and on the bone].
If you're wanting to maintain a straight line cut through something like a boned out rolled roast, a deeper blade will do the job better than a narrow blade.
I've got quite a collection but most of them don't get used. I'd vote for one big one, one medium one and one small one, all of really high quality, as essential, though as Johnny2bad says, it's amazing what you can do with pocket knife.
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Knives are more involved than I thought :o I just discovered a new (to me) type - bunka.
Here's a fun quiz: https://sharpedgeshop.com/blogs/learn/quiz-what-type-of-knife-should-i-choose
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I do 90% of all my work with a 240mm gyuto. A bread knife? Even in a restaurant kitchen I only use my bread knife every few months. Paring knife? I don't even have one.
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Hi Rob, I don't use one either. I thought maybe I lacked skills but I probably just won't get one. I do want a nakiri though, never used one but there are loads on ebay, even direct from Japan. Some pretty cheap! There's a Tojiro (not DP3, lower range probably made for domestic market) for like AUD30, seems like a good way to see if I like that type of knife. (I suspect I will, a lot.)
(http://www.knifeshopaustralia.com.au/assets/thumbL/YJFC80.jpg)
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The real key is getting them and keeping them very very sharp.
That's one thing I have learned :oops: Down with ceramic wheels! :uzi:
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I get by with a chefs knife and a paring knife most of the time. What I lacked was a petty knife. I really like the in between size but wanted it different so I made one. I wanted a 6" x 1" on the thin side with a drop point to a relatively flat cutting surface and minimal belly. A pronounced sharp point to core out tomatoes, etc. Great for large tomatoes and onions. No pics of the knife cause it's butt ugly. Came home from work and saw my wife driving point down through a cantaloupe. Broke the tip and I realized I did not anneal it after heat treat. :x
A scissors is very useful too as is secondary knives for melons and the family to use. Don't make bread so never needed a bread knife.
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I get by with a chefs knife and a paring knife most of the time. What I lacked was a petty knife. I really like the in between size but wanted it different so I made one. I wanted a 6" x 1" on the thin side with a drop point to a relatively flat cutting surface and minimal belly. A pronounced sharp point to core out tomatoes, etc. Great for large tomatoes and onions. No pics of the knife cause it's butt ugly. Came home from work and saw my wife driving point down through a cantaloupe. Broke the tip and I realized I did not anneal it after heat treat. :x
A scissors is very useful too as is secondary knives for melons and the family to use. Don't make bread so never needed a bread knife.
Yes, I find a petty knife very useful for coring and slicing tomatoes, cutting up fruit, manually peeling fruit and tomatoes, etc. I bought this Tanaka years ago and it's a phenomenal knife for the price. It takes a razor sharp edge and holds it well. A quick stropping on a suede paddle quickly restores a like new edge. It's not stainless but it is more resistant to staining than average carbon steel.
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/tadape13.html
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You don't really need stainless for knives. A good carbon steel knife is softer metal and much easier to sharpen, and keeps an edge well. Stainless is quite hard, which means more strokes with your favorite sharpener, or an aggressive sharpener like a carbide type.
The other thing is pretty much everyone is going to have a natural tendency angle they put on a knife, and that will rarely match the factory edge. So you are going to put a new angle on the first time you sharpen, and that is much easier with a carbon steel blade. Rinse and wipe after each use and staining won't be a problem. You want to be especially careful to do so after cutting acidic foods (citrus, etc) as they are most likely to stain a knife.
Serrated knives work, but instead of slicing they tend to act by tearing the food. When the food is soft itself (cake, bread) or has a crust, it works well, and softer foods do not dull the knife much. To sharpen you use a round tool and work each serration somewhat like sharpening a chainsaw. But really they are for cooks who never sharpen, as they will still cut (tear) when dull.
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Yes, I find a petty knife very useful for coring and slicing tomatoes, cutting up fruit, manually peeling fruit and tomatoes, etc. I bought this Tanaka years ago and it's a phenomenal knife for the price. It takes a razor sharp edge and holds it well. A quick stropping on a suede paddle quickly restores a like new edge. It's not stainless but it is more resistant to staining than average carbon steel.
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/tadape13.html
Nice, thanks for the link.
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Carbon steel is harder than stainless - isn't it? (That's what the carbon is for.)
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so I made one. ...
Cool, way to go :thumb:
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Carbon steel is harder than stainless - isn't it? (That's what the carbon is for.)
Here's a nice short enjoyable blog from the Serious Eats website:
Why Serious Cooks Use Carbon Steel Knives (https://www.seriouseats.com/2014/12/why-buy-carbon-steel-knives-best-kitchen-tools.html)
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I believe I could get by with 3 knifes most of the time, For me, it's:
1) 6" Santoku (but not a classic Japanese style)
2) 4+" Pairing Knife
3) 10" Bread knife
So, VERY close to what the original post suggested. Probably 90% of the knife work I do is with one of those. They are all what I consider to be of high quality.
However, I do own a TON of other knifes, and I almost always use the one "designed" for the task at hand (boning knife for boning, etc)
But the key is that I keep them SHARP.
Edgepro Apex :thumb:
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Here's a nice short enjoyable blog from the Serious Eats website:
Why Serious Cooks Use Carbon Steel Knives (https://www.seriouseats.com/2014/12/why-buy-carbon-steel-knives-best-kitchen-tools.html)
I'm convinced, I'm going carbon:
http://www.dexterrussellcutlery.com/dexter-traditional-6-high-carbon-steel-cleaver-08010-5096/
(https://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-kuu81hhu/products/374/images/611/08010__67666__58169.1450902964.1280.1280.jpg?c=2)
I'll try shaving myself with it and the blood stains on it can be used to tell a story ;)
I can't help noticing how much cheaper knives sold to butchers are than knives sold to home cooks. Butcher's knives are plenty sharp, right?
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Probably 90% of the knife work I do is with one of those. They are all what I consider to be of high quality.
However, I do own a TON of other knifes, and I almost always use the one "designed" for the task at hand (boning knife for boning, etc)
The thing I wonder is, if you (not you specifically, in general) have specialized knives that do all the things you need to do, why do you need a general purpose knife at all (e.g. chef's knife, santoku etc)?
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I think part of it comes back to your cutting style. I'm a "push cutter" so I really like the Santoku style of having a wide blade and the handle aligned to the top/spine of the knife. Big, medium, or small - all my knives are this style. Or will be soon! Haha.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184839)
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Carbon steel is harder than stainless - isn't it? (That's what the carbon is for.)
The answer is complicated by the large number of steel formulae suitable for kitchen knives. But ...
420 Stainless Steel becoming more common for inexpensive knife blades Rockwell 49-53
440A Stainless Steel commonly used in knife blades Rockwell 55-57
Alloy 1095 Plain Carbon Steel Rockwell 56-58
ATS-34 High Carbon / Chromium / Molybedinum Stainless Steel Rockwell 60-61
AUS-6A Medium to High Carbon Stainless Steel Rockwell 55-57
AUS-8A High Carbon / Low Chromium Stainless Steel Rockwell 57-59
Carbon-V Low Alloy Cutlery Grade Stainless Steel Rockwell 59
CPM-S30V American grade of Cutlery Steel Rockwell 58-60
N-690 Austrian grade of Cutlery Steel Rockwell 58-60
Sandvik 12C27 Swedish grade of Stainless Steel Rockwell 57-59
You are correct that adding Carbon makes for a harder alloy, but you can use it in a formula that is Stainless or not; other components alloyed will determine if the steel is considered Stainless. Generally Chromium (which is a very hard metal) and perhaps other alloying elements make a steel Stainless.
There is not a huge difference between knife grade Plain Carbon Steels and Stainless Steels (for example, they are both magnetic, otherwise they would not stick to magnetic knife holders, while high grades of Stainless are non-magnetic), but the addition of Chromium is what makes most Stainless variants brittle, versus pliable for Plain Steels. The brittleness means you need a more aggressive sharpening material, so "harder" might not be technically correct on the Rockwell scale but none the less, they are more difficult to sharpen.
Note as well that the various grades of Stainless will corrode under some conditions. so a rinse and wipe is still recommended. It is also important that utensils are stored dry as that is the key to bacterial contamination control. If using a knife wet (say, you are switching from chicken to onions) you should use soap so that the majority of live bacteria is washed away; it won't kill bacteria (and anti-bacterial soaps just create bacterial-resistant bugs, and should be avoided in any case). To kill bacteria you must have a dry surface, plus a little time. Placing a wet knife into, say, a wooden knife block or resting on a plastic surface in a drawer, you are potentially harboring bacteria.
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quote John:
"The thing I wonder is, if you (not you specifically, in general) have specialized knives that do all the things you need to do, why do you need a general purpose knife at all (e.g. chef's knife, santoku etc)?"
At two extremes ...
A large 30cm blade traditional french chefs knife isn't really a general purpose knife. It's great for chopping huge amounts of parsley and onions or maybe dicing meat finely but it's purpose specific really. Below about 20cm [sorry, I haven't got one on hand to check] the main purpose of these knives is defeated by the fact, if you're attempting a classic chopping motion, your knuckles hit the board you're working on before the blade does. At this length, you're probably better off with a gyuto.
A small concave curved blade paring knife can be very useful for peeling fruit or something like cutting the core out of a pear that's in quarters. The paring knife is pretty useless for larger jobs though.
Often, it's a question of dexterity. While it's possible to cut the core out of tomato with the tip of a 30cm long knife, it's easier and more precise to do it [or repeat it over a few hundred tomatoes] with a short knife. Likewise, a paring knife is useless if you need to cut large volumes of anything.
A cleaver really is specialized :D and if you put a really sharp edge on it, it will cut as well as anything else BUT it's cumbersome.
Home use really is different to pro use just because of the volumes involved.
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For Cleavers I buy them at Asian Grocery stores. Very inexpensive, provided you're shopping at one that caters to ... well ... Asians, and not trendy consumers.
For a filleting / boning knife, I buy them from Butchers who wear down what were once pretty substantial knives to a thin blade, then often discard them. Very decent steel, usually a plastic handle.
The Chef's knife I spend money on.
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quote John:
A cleaver really is specialized :D and if you put a really sharp edge on it, it will cut as well as anything else BUT it's cumbersome.
I'd say that's a matter of cultural and culinary perspective. To many Asian chefs, the cleaver is the "go to" first choice. I don't find them cumbersome in the least for prepping stir fry dishes or slicing and dicing veg and proteins (as long as you buy one that's well balanced and you hold it right.)
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Yes, I completely agree. Related to the image john posted above, I was thinking "french" cleaver when I said that. At first glance Asian cleavers look similar but in practice they're thinner, lighter and very useful, as you say.
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Delicate work with a chinese cleaver - https://youtu.be/HV8FPk5qN9k?t=2m40s
(PS. that's actually a Wusthof :lol: )
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Quite a showman :o
This site and maybe their shop in Sydney, could both be worth a visit John.
https://www.chefsarmoury.com/
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Indeed :)
Once I learn my chops with the $30 nakiri, perhaps an upgrade will be in order :o
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184893)
https://www.chefsarmoury.com/collections/nakiri-vegetable/products/saji-ironwood-165mm-nakiri
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You don't really need stainless for knives. A good carbon steel knife is softer metal and much easier to sharpen, and keeps an edge well. Stainless is quite hard, which means more strokes with your favorite sharpener, or an aggressive sharpener like a carbide type.
The other thing is pretty much everyone is going to have a natural tendency angle they put on a knife, and that will rarely match the factory edge. So you are going to put a new angle on the first time you sharpen, and that is much easier with a carbon steel blade. Rinse and wipe after each use and staining won't be a problem. You want to be especially careful to do so after cutting acidic foods (citrus, etc) as they are most likely to stain a knife.
Serrated knives work, but instead of slicing they tend to act by tearing the food. When the food is soft itself (cake, bread) or has a crust, it works well, and softer foods do not dull the knife much. To sharpen you use a round tool and work each serration somewhat like sharpening a chainsaw. But really they are for cooks who never sharpen, as they will still cut (tear) when dull.
I figured I'd provide some clarity on steels for you and John (as best I am able to).
Being carbon or stainless does not have anything to do with how hard a steel can be. There are steels that can be hardened near 70 RC like Maxamet which is basically weakly semi-stainless. How stainless a knife steel is depends on how much free chromium exists in it's makeup. Most steels available on high quality pocket knives will be between 58-62 RC and vary from near completely stainless (LC200N, H1, Nitrobe 77), to those that can stain if abused (S110V/S90V/S30V, VG-10, 440C, 14C28N), to semi stainless (M4, 3V, K390), and then those which stain quite easily (52100, 1095, simple carbon steels). When I say free chromium, I also do not mean % chromium in the chemical makeup. Chromium is also used to form chromium carbides. ZDP-189 is a steel with excellent edge retention, 20% chromium, but can stain if the user isn't careful.
Getting back to hardness, that is determined by which elements exist in the makeup, how the steel is made, and the heat treatment of the steel.
For kitchen knives, you typically want steels that have a good balance of traits. I recommend AEB-L and 14C28N. They rarely rust, sharpen easily (and because they have such good edge stability, you can sharpen them to ridiculous angles), have solid edge retention (if it is properly heat treated), and are fairly tough/resistant to edge deformation. Most steels you'll find in common cutlery is simple in it's makeup, heat treated fairly soft (lower to mid 50s), and won't hold an edge long.
The knives I use in my kitchen vary between customs from Jeremy McCullen and Spyderco kitchen knife models (the Santoku is quite nice), plus cheap paring knives from Victorinox.
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Being carbon or stainless does not have anything to do with how hard a steel can be.
That clears it up for me :)
I ran into some Japanese knives the other day saying they use Swedish steel and it turns out there are (at least) a couple of ranges using AEB-L e.g.
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/ksearch.html?term=aeb-l&x=0&y=0&vwcatalog=chefknivestogo
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I figured I'd provide some clarity on steels for you and John (as best I am able to).
For kitchen knives, you typically want steels that have a good balance of traits. I recommend AEB-L and 14C28N. They rarely rust, sharpen easily (and because they have such good edge stability, you can sharpen them to ridiculous angles), have solid edge retention (if it is properly heat treated), and are fairly tough/resistant to edge deformation. Most steels you'll find in common cutlery is simple in it's makeup, heat treated fairly soft (lower to mid 50s), and won't hold an edge long.
The knives I use in my kitchen vary between customs from Jeremy McCullen and Spyderco kitchen knife models (the Santoku is quite nice), plus cheap paring knives from Victorinox.
Yes indeed cujobob, nice post, outright hardness, even if encased in a beautiful damascus knife, can lead to a blade that's prone to micro-chips on the edge and is tricky to sharpen.
My personal collection includes "classic" knives from Trident, F Dick, Sebatier but I really enjoy using a Santoku that didn't cost a fortune and uses Shirogami 2 carbon steel
https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/shirogami2.html
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...For kitchen knives, you typically want steels that have a good balance of traits. I recommend AEB-L and 14C28N...
I have an AEB-L 210mm Gyoto that is a nice knife at a low-ish price. As I mentioned before, I don't reach for it much, but I like it when I do.
Here is a version in a two-fer deal. https://www.chefknivestogo.com/riariigy21.html It's now a slightly different steel as they had some quality issues with their AEB-L version, but mine works great.
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Double post :oops:
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What about powdered steel (R2, SG2)?
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/sg2steel.html
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Yes indeed cujobob, nice post, outright hardness, even if encased in a beautiful damascus knife, can lead to a blade that's prone to micro-chips on the edge and is tricky to sharpen.
My personal collection includes "classic" knives from Trident, F Dick, Sebatier but I really enjoy using a Santoku that didn't cost a fortune and uses Shirogami 2 carbon steel
https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/shirogami2.html
Which knife is that?
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What about powdered steel (R2, SG2)?
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/sg2steel.html
I have two powdered steel knives, a petty and a nakiri, both HAP40. Very hard steel, takes a very fine edge and keeps it. Bit hard to sharpen, but not an issue with an EdgePro.
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Which knife is that?
http://re-sawakichi.com/?page_id=159
Japanese knife from Vietnam. $1 approx 20,000VND, so they're $100 to $180 or so.
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There are lots of Shirogami #2 (White #2) at that price point from name smiths. There are 20-30 here...
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/white2steel.html
White#2 is a fine steel for taking a great edge, ok for holding it. I'd try Aogami (Blue) #1 or #2
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Hm, who says you need a breadknife?
https://youtu.be/gx1pP1JHhCA?t=3m16s
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What about powdered steel (R2, SG2)?
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/sg2steel.html
R2 is outstanding! Great edge retention and it gets pretty sharp. It's perhaps overkill for a home cook but if you have the extra cash it's nice.
I have two powdered steel knives, a petty and a nakiri, both HAP40. Very hard steel, takes a very fine edge and keeps it. Bit hard to sharpen, but not an issue with an EdgePro.
IMO HAP40 is a smidge better than R2. In a way it's a bit like trying to pick the best material for, say, a tweeter. Implementation is more important than materials. Still though all else being equal a knife in HAP40 will hold an edge through more normal use than almost anything else you can buy (for kitchen knives at least). I'd say that Maxamet if one of the few that will do better but no one makes a Maxamet kitchen knife (not even sure it could be done).
ZDP-189 is also capable of tremendous edge retention but in my experience is more prone to chipping than HAP40.
Carbon steel is still a great choice IMO. Probably nothing you can get will take a better edge than Hitachi White Paper steel. Edge retention isn't stellar but it's very fine grained and will get insanely sharp.
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Hm, who says you need a breadknife?
https://youtu.be/gx1pP1JHhCA?t=3m16s
It depends on crust. We buy baguettes often, and I bake a bit. Hard crust is very tough on an edge, even a hard steel. If all you are cutting is soft crust bread, you don't need a bread knife. If you cut hard crust occasionally, just keep a cheap serrated knife in the back of you drawer. If you use it weekly, get a decent bread knife- they aren't expensive. Henckles for $30 https://www.amazon.com/J-Henckels-International-Forged-Premio/dp/B00375MLRA/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1538375607&sr=8-8&keywords=bread+knife+10+inch+serrated
Or Victorinox for $5 more.
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In a way it's a bit like trying to pick the best material for, say, a tweeter.
Carbon steel is still a great choice IMO. Probably nothing you can get will take a better edge than Hitachi White Paper steel. Edge retention isn't stellar but it's very fine grained and will get insanely sharp.
Nothing like a good audio analogy! Maybe the really hard steels are the Class D of knives, where the more malleable blades are the equivalent of tube amps :D ?
I totally agree with Rob's last paragraph. Good carbon steel has a better feel when you're sharpening it and when you're using it. It makes it easier to learn how to sharpen a knife and rewarding to create an edge that you can shave hair off your arm with. Really, there's no point in owning a high quality knife where there isn't an equivalent interest in sharpening it to its potential.
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It depends on crust. We buy baguettes often, and I bake a bit. Hard crust is very tough on an edge, even a hard steel. If all you are cutting is soft crust bread, you don't need a bread knife. If you cut hard crust occasionally, just keep a cheap serrated knife in the back of you drawer. If you use it weekly, get a decent bread knife- they aren't expensive.
Had no idea that bread crust was that tough on hardened steel! I'm not kidding. Weird.
My 2 cents: I've got a set of 3 Miyabi kitchen knives (Miyabi was bought by the popular German brand- Henckels or something like that. The stainless steel is good: thin, hard, rarely needs sharpening. I cut a lemon with one of these Miyabi's, left it on the counter for 3 days with the lemon still attached to the blade. And no stain, lemon came off pretty easily, no acid etch.
So, I just have the 3 basic Miyabi knives:
1. paring knife, 2. santoku knife, and 3, kitchen knife
Carbon is great in the kitchen as well, but more maintenance involved of the blade.
I keep stainless steel in the kitchen and 1095 carbon on my outdoor blades, since you can sharpen
1095 steel on rock in a pinch in the outdoors, but you cant do that with stainless.
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Yep, cutting hard crust takes an edge off a knife really quickly. FINALLY, I convinced my wife to only cut bread with a bread knife or her crappy serrated Cutco that she adores. I'd rather that she cut against a ceramic plate... at least that usually ruins an edge in a limited area.
I'm curious that Rob seldom uses a bread knife. Since he's one of our pro's, I'd like to hear why? My suspicion is that not much hard crust is served at his restaurant.
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I've got a Japanese bread knife that I occasionally use. Not much crusty bread where I'm at now but my gyutos generally make pretty short work of batard as well. You know how a tornado will drive stalks of wheat into trees like they were made of steel? There's a bit of technique to cutting a baggette with a gyuto. :wink:
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Use the heel to get it started?
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Maybe a bread knife is a good idea after all, a cheap one.
High quality steel is at risk with all sorts of hard stuff, that sometimes looks quite innocent ... pumpkin comes to mind. It's not worth the risk of chipping an edge on nasty hard thingy's.
A useful check for the state of a knife: Hold it up in good light with the edge towards you and check for glinting off the edge. This will show up micro-chips and sections of the blade that are blunt. The "running a finger along the edge of a knife" test might look very macho but it's a bit iffy.
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Maybe a bread knife is a good idea after all, a cheap one.
You can't go wrong with the Made in USA
Dexter Russell Sani-Safe 8" Scalloped Bread Knife 13313 S162-8SC (http://www.dexterrussellcutlery.com/s162-8sc-dexter-russell-8-scalloped-bread-knife-with-sanisafe-handle/)
MSRP $24.45, but available at many restaurant supply stores for only ~ $10 - $15
An amazing bread knife for the price!
Steve
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High quality steel is at risk with all sorts of hard stuff, that sometimes looks quite innocent ... pumpkin comes to mind. It's not worth the risk of chipping an edge on nasty hard thingy's.
I spoke to a Japanese knife vendor a couple of days ago who point blank said if I was cutting pumpkin don't use a Japanese knife. If true, that puts paid to the idea that you can use one knife 80-90% of the time (unless it's not Japanese) ? But what do the Japanese use :scratch:
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I spoke to a Japanese knife vendor a couple of days ago who point blank said if I was cutting pumpkin don't use a Japanese knife. If true, that puts paid to the idea that you can use one knife 80-90% of the time (unless it's not Japanese) ? But what do the Japanese use :scratch:
They avoid pumpkin :lol:
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I spoke to a Japanese knife vendor a couple of days ago who point blank said if I was cutting pumpkin don't use a Japanese knife. If true, that puts paid to the idea that you can use one knife 80-90% of the time (unless it's not Japanese) ? But what do the Japanese use :scratch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G4-GCvA8KE&t=109s
A cleaver, or something with a softer blade that won't chip as easily. A serrated bread knife should also do nicely.
I suspect that a 63 hardness steel plunged with a bit of torque into something like a pumpkin could end badly.
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Chefs Knife, bread knife, parring knife. The most important thing is they are extremely sharp. Dull kinifes cause injury.
charles
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I spoke to a Japanese knife vendor a couple of days ago who point blank said if I was cutting pumpkin don't use a Japanese knife. If true, that puts paid to the idea that you can use one knife 80-90% of the time (unless it's not Japanese) ? But what do the Japanese use :scratch:
This instead :lol:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185190)
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Since I don't eat bread (no wheat at all, causes chest congestion, asthma, and allergies for me), I use my "bread" knife to cut meat. It does a better job on beef liver, for instance, than does a "normal" knife, as liver can be quite squirmy. I use it for any boneless meat now.
We have two different chef's knives and both have benefits and detriments. One is thicker and heavier, and this is nice when you're trying to cut a block of cheese. But if you're trying to get a fine dice on an onion, I'll use the thinner one.
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We've been thinking about the problem wrong - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAGrPiPshH0
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Dull kinifes cause injury.
Hm, I'm not sure I believe that... I've never hurt myself with a dull knife...
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The youtube clip raises a point ... blade thickness.
Here's my most used but quite boring knife on my very special wooden board:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185373)
Cutting a pumpkin with something thick, like a cleaver or heavy chefs knife is quite heavy duty and almost explosive. It works best if you use the blade like an axe or hammer, raising it high and delivering a massive blow but a thin blade is usually more surgical.
The Kiwi above is a reasonable compromise. It's easy to sharpen in 30 seconds using a whetstone [I use a round, two sided one, designed for racing axe sharpening, hand-held, under running water]. The knife edge can also be encouraged between stone sharpenings with a steel. Steels don't go down well with Japanese knife aficionados but they have their place.
Thin, light blades will race through some things, like mushrooms, even if dead blunt. They also cut quite a few vegetables when semi-sharp.
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Well, those Kiwi knives certainly don't break the budget! I will get one to try. The special board seems like it would be easy on the edge....
I'm starting to think that Japanese knives are not for the casual user... at least in terms of sharpening - https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/a-basic-explanation-of-asymmetry.33951/
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Handles. I handled a Wusthof classic the other day and was surprised at how small the handle was. This was on a 10" breadknife, so not a little knife. I guess it takes a while to learn what you like, very hard to tell from photos.
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Some thoughts on the kitchen knife forum clip ...
The images in the article aren't to scale so it's impossible to know how significant the bevel is but bevels on the edge of a blade are a form of bluntness, even if they have a sharp edge. A beveled edge just doesn't cut in the same way as the same blade with a natural form to the edge. There was a period when many top level kitchen knife makers sold their knives with a pronounced bevel on the edge. First task of any buyer was to remove the bevel. In addition, when a bevel gets blunt it gets really blunt! A bevel makes a less chip prone edge but that doesn't mean it holds its edge better.
The asymmetry idea depends a lot of how much you hate stickage Personally I'd prefer to have a certain amount of stickage rather than the inevitable "turn" that comes from a single sided blade [used for something other than what it was designed for] or an asymmetric sharpen. As the article says, it's only partly possible to counteract the "turn" with a bevel.
Yes, it's odd about bread knife handles. Why so many manufacturers have agreed to small handles on bread knives and ham knives I don't know. Wusthof chefs knives don't suffer from the same problem.
The board I use is Huon pine. I feel a little guilty about using such a rare timber but it's far and away the best surface I've ever used. Same timber as I used for the GK-1 pre-amp in my avatar.
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I didn't realize the Wusthof were different size handles (except for large/small knives in general). I figured out why square handles shaped with finger indents are so awkward (for me anyway) - the handle shape works only if you hold the knife like a hammer, however you never hold the knife that way. (*) Even if you only hold the handle (sometimes called the "hammer grip" it seems), you have to rotate the knife a lot from the actual hammer grip. Anyway I guess I'm much preferring round handles.
I've also discovered that knives are not always straight :o
(*) Except for a cleaver I guess.
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I've also discovered that knives are not always straight :o
Ooops yes, I should have said something about that. I've seen some Kiwis that have a bend in them when new. It's nearly impossible and very scary trying to bend them back to straight. Hmm, maybe it is impossible. I can't remember ever having succeeded in the task.
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You do often get blades that aren't flat, especially very thin knives. Nothing is more frustrating than spending an hour trying to sharpen a knife and not getting anywhere, then realizing it's not flat! :duh:
IMO the handle doesn't need to be very big. The correct technique is the 'pinch grip' where you have you hold the knife with your thumb and forefinger; the other fingers just kind curl under the handle out of the way, just light pressure.
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Is the pinch grip proper for all cutting and chopping?
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The pinch grip is one grip that is proper for cutting and chopping. It generally is suitable when using a western-style chef's knife with a rocker.
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Is the pinch grip proper for all cutting and chopping?
Yeah. It's all about control. Pick up a pencil as if you're going to write your name; how are you holding the pencil? In a "hammer grip" where you use your fist how would you like to write a letter that way? Same principle with the knife. If you were going something that requires a bit of muscle (and we're going to stipulate you're being very careful) you might use a hammer grip to bring more force to bear. Maybe cutting through a leg bone or halving a squash for example, that would maybe a rare case for using a hammer grip.
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Since we're talking knives again... :) I finally got a bread knife. This (in one usage session :-P ) is the most awesome bread knife I've ever used. It's more like the ultimate sandwich machine.
(https://images.yswcdn.com/-6709878151531560371-ql-85/451/454/ay/chefknivestogo/mac-superior-bread-knife-10-5-inch-61.png)
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/macsubrkn.html
(I have no affilation to that vendor and didn't buy the knife there, but since I used their image I thought I should provide the link. Also the page is more infomaative than most.)
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That's a very decent knife that should slice bread for the rest of your life, and another generation past that. I know Rob, and perhaps most pros, doesn't use one, but I swear by mine. Whenever friends stay for the weekend, the baguette slices number well into the hundreds. A good bread knife is simply the right tool for the job. I suspect you'll be happy with your purchase for decades to come.
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Thanks Scott. I'm off to buy a crusty sourdough for another test. Mmm sandwiches :green:
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Hopefully this is not too far off the mark of the topic.... I thought I'd tap into you knife aficionados.
I've been looking for a small, automatic pocket knife, perhaps 3"-3.5" closed. I don't want assisted or flipping...just the auto action with a good lock. (Nothing tactical...just a general purpose knife.) Benchmade makes sort of what I'm looking for, but wow, the prices.....
Does anyone have a recommendation for some such under a hundred bucks?
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Gerber?
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Hopefully this is not too far off the mark of the topic....
It is quite far off the topic.... this thread is about kitchen knives.
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It is quite far off the topic.... this thread is about kitchen knives.
Okay.
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https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/25/essential-kitchen-knives_n_2545628.html
What say you? Is this good advice? Is there anyone that actually only has three knives? How many do you have?
(This same advice is all over the place, this article is just an example.)
Yes, this is true! Confirmed with friend(s) who are professional chefs. Those knife blocks/kits full of a dozen knives are a gimmick/for the uninformed. Pick up some Wusthof Classic Ikons (Chef, Paring, Bread) and you are set!
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Yes, this is true! Confirmed with friend(s) who are professional chefs. Those knife blocks/kits full of a dozen knives are a gimmick/for the uninformed. Pick up some Wusthof Classic Ikons (Chef, Paring, Bread) and you are set!
Well... ok. Not my experience.
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Thread back up and running :D
I've been thinking about paring knives and i reckon there's a special place for concave curved blades. I suspect the reason they're ignored, is that they're particularly tricky to sharpen, especially if you're using a stone. Counter to pretty much everything else, you can only use contact with a point on the very edge of the stone and points along the edge of the knife. Some of those sharpening tools might make life easier but they're an interesting challenge and very useful for fruit.
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I assume you are talking about birds beak knives like this Shun
(https://shun.kaiusaltd.com/images/uploads/products/5869/dm0715_slide2__510x200.jpg)
I've got a Due Buoi (Italian competitor to the Germans) birds beak. I use it for peeling potatoes, and that's about it. You can sharpen it on ceramic or diamond rod sharpeners pretty easily, but not on a standard stone. You have to watch them... I've cut the crap out of myself with it.
(http://www.duebuoi.it/imgs/8/800vc-8.jpg)
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Hey, you can get curved water stones - https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Naniwa-Gouken-Curved-Water-Stone-P1605.aspx
(https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Assets/Images/QA_1.jpg)
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I only need one knife. My Jason Knight Kukri... :lol:
(https://i.imgur.com/a4FfYWd.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/mhSCbvp.jpg?1)
But seriously I use this stubby 6" chef from Nick Rossi for 90% of my cooking.
(https://i.imgur.com/GqLSfVtl.jpg)
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Hat's off to anyone, Scott, who takes on peeling potatoes with a "birds beak" paring knife!
Going back to the "three knives" though, I'd suggest this knife should replace the suggested, straight[ish] bladed paring knife in the essential three.
The Naniwa stones certainly come with a nice range of grits. They also look as though a certain amount of practice would be useful to avoid surgically skinning your thumb. Are they perhaps designed for, ahem, knives we aren't talking about here, like pocket knives.
Maybe a potato peeler should be added as "the 4th knife" :D
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Rise, Zombie Thread! :lol: I'm tempted to say that if I had three knives it would be three 240mm gyutos. But if they are to be different then I'd say a 240mm gyuto (tough to pick but I'd take my "Black Steel" Nubatama as first choice, and my Konosuke or my Richmond Ultimatum in M390 after that), a 300mm suji (I'd choose my Kagayaki Carbonext) and boning knife (Western type, I'd choose my Tojiro Gukoju in VG-10). If I was to expand this to five I'd take another 240mm gyuto and possibly my Tojiro bread knife. I don't really "need" a bread knife but it was a pre-production sample sent to me for review and my input prior to production so it has sentimental value. :)
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I'm tempted to say that if I had three knives it would be three 240mm gyutos.
Interesting! What would be the differences between them?
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Probably different steels and looks. Maybe one in HAP40 or M390, or R2- something that keeps an edge forever. Probably my 240mm Nubatama (very fancy, exotic steel, the one I can "show off" to people) and my super light 4.25 oz Konosuke. With a few knives that are about the same you can rotate 'em and at least one will always be sharp.
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A close friend was a CIA grad and worked as a chef for about 20 years. He also favored a 240mm gyuto over most anything else. For a kitchen hacker like me, they feel too big, a bit awkward. A 210 works for me.
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. Oops, double post.
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I'm too impatient to use a 210mm! :lol:
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Yeah, I think you chefs guys just like to say "My knife is bigger than yours".
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/71717741/you-call-that-a-knife-now-thats-a-knife.jpg)
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A close friend was a CIA grad and worked as a chef for about 20 years. He also favored a 240mm gyuto over most anything else. For a kitchen hacker like me, they feel too big, a bit awkward. A 210 works for me.
If you're cooking at home for your family, or even a small group of guests, I think you're quite right. I've got a number of large knives that were absolutely necessary when there was a mountain of unprepared food on one side of the bench and a dining room full of customers on the other side but it's actually a pleasure to be able to use knives that are smaller, more nimble and perfectly suited to everyday tasks.