[Wayner]

Something inside me says that if you are new to TT's, starting at the top is just wrong. There is a right of passage here and not to sway anyone from getting the table they want, TTs are not plug and play like a CD player. This is an electro-mechanical thing that requires a bit of knowledge to set up properly.

While I could afford almost anytable, I feel empowered when I can get a modest machine to make me smile. Some day I will take the deep plunge into the high end, but for now I'm right where I want to be.

That said, life is too short, buy what you want, we need to keep the economy going! 

Wayner

[macrojack]

Justification for highest level audio gear has to be found in your own level of obsession. Turntables selling above $10K are deep in the diminishing returns range. I think that you can get within a whisker of what the ultra spinners deliver by carefully choosing a statement vintage DD table for under $3K for arm and everything.

[woodsyi]

Justification for highest level audio gear has to be found in your own level of obsession. Turntables selling above $10K are deep in the diminishing returns range. I think that you can get within a whisker of what the ultra spinners deliver by carefully choosing a statement vintage DD table for under $3K for arm and everything.

You are right about diminishing returns.  A corollary would be that you have to plunge deeply into mega buck territory in order to hear substantial difference at this level.    So if you want to go for it, go deep -- don't waste your money on some dinky $8000 set up.   

Seriously, get your current tt set up optimally before going down the slippery slope.  It takes time even when you know what you are doing to set up a table right.  Have you run this test LP to double check your set up? http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=35532   

[TheChairGuy]

Something inside me says that if you are new to TT's, starting at the top is just wrong. There is a right of passage here and not to sway anyone from getting the table they want, TTs are not plug and play like a CD player. This is an electro-mechanical thing that requires a bit of knowledge to set up properly.

While I could afford almost anytable, I feel empowered when I can get a modest machine to make me smile. Some day I will take the deep plunge into the high end, but for now I'm right where I want to be.

That said, life is too short, buy what you want, we need to keep the economy going! 

Wayner

Sage advice and, for me, the second sentence could have been written expressly for me, too

I'm really quite giddy with how the Technics SL-1200 / Origin Live Illustrious MK. III / strobe disabler / outboard power supply / upgraded mat(s) / brass feet / maple block sounds.  I listed all the enhancements as they all helped to lift the deck to very high levels of performance.

Even if all had been bought brand new, the outlay was less than $4000.00....a mere pittance next to the expenditure one could fork over for top flight performance.  My cost into it is probably closer to $2500.00.

As I watch my portfolio sink 20% the past couple weeks...the music has been keeping me surprisingly happy 

John

[Dan_ed]

I'll offer a an opposing view as food for thought. I used to be of the same opinion as Wayner on this subject and it is indeed how I progressed. However, the knowledge and skills to setup a high-dollar table is really no different than for a low-dollar table. Assuming, of course, the design of the low-dollar table has not taken away the ability to make certain adjustments. Many times the extra cost is going to pay for the increased ability to do fine to ultra-fine adjustments. This would actually enhance the learning experience, IMHO, along with the added ability to discern the changes such adjustments make that some high-dollar tables provide. My opinion these days is to buy the best, not necessarily the most expensive, table/arm/cart you can the first time.

[2bigears]

thk you all for a super thread,with some of the best advice anywhere,and it's all free.as i spin more and more records on the P9 i am finding out a few things here to shed a little light to the vinyl world.some albums sound like crap and some are blowing me away with nothing but sweet tonal bliss.  aa the 70's rock albums can hurt your ears,some are very bright.but,there are diamonds amongst them also.the Eagles-Long Run album is one that takes your ears and pours liquid gold into them,the bass is amazing,voices are real.only vinyl can do this,and this is what we all pay and play for.also have in house some new 180g'ers i have yet to open.spinnin' some old newly found high school tunes can disappoint,bought 3 old Nazareth albums and they sound bad,i mean really bad.don't know the workings on vinyl yet,but i have learnt the record better be physically perfect and the mastering must be done well....if you have these two conditions on the black disc,you are on your way to sweet music like it should be heard.----now back to 33 and 1/3

[Scott F.]

I'll offer a an opposing view as food for thought. <snip> My opinion these days is to buy the best, not necessarily the most expensive, table/arm/cart you can the first time.

I'll second Dan's position. I've been buying gear for more years (and dollars) than I care to think about. When we all first start down the audiophile path we try to get the biggest bang for the buck gear we can, mainly because of budgetary restraints. This is absolutely fine but the deeper we get into audio and the more we read boards like this one, we eventually succumb to upgraditus. This disease is dangerous. It puts us on the never ending quest for better sound. More often than not, we drag along our bang for the buck budgetary mindset. Trouble with that is, (and this is not an absolute), that last 5 or 10% that we all strive for is where the rational, budget conscience person draws the line. They absolutely refuse to spend any more than X dollars on a given piece of gear. In turn, they waffle back and fourth buying, selling and trading gear hoping that one day they reach their personal nirvana. More often than not, it never happens.

When you look back over the years and begin to add up the money you spent (or lost) swapping all that gear, many would quickly realize if you had just bit the bullet on the front side, you could have purchased your "ultimate" slice of audio nirvana. In turn, I have adopted a personal philosophy of buy once, buy right and never look back. One of my largest investments was my turntable setup. It's one of the many variations in $10k+ rigs that exists out there. Could I have spent less and gotten something (reasonably) comparable? Sure, but I'll tell you this, since I invested in this setup, I've never once thought about upgrading any piece of it (I'm about three years into ownership). This is one turntable/arm/cart(s)/pre that I will never get rid of, it is simply too good. It does things that (many) less expensive tables could only dream of doing, regardless the amount of tweaking. Will I continue to to make minor tweaks to that part of the system? Sure, but the tweaks are minor in nature.

Does this mean the lessor expensive tables sound bad or you can't do something for less money? No. It should be interpreted that if you have the means you should consider doing it once and doing it right. On the other hand if you want the adventure of experiencing many makes and designs of tables plus the endless tweaking to get the most out of a table, by all means go for it. Most all of us have traveled that same path. For me, I've listened to (or owned) a number of quality tables. I knew what design (and features) I wanted to settle on, hence my investment and adopted philosophy.

Away from my commentary and to answer the original question, I agree completely with Jeff (Tonepub). When you get into the more expensive table/arm/cart/pre combos it becomes about a far lower noise floor, much better speed stability and better overall presentation. I'll add one thing, on a premium setup you would be amazed when you drop the needle on what looks to be a marginal record. I've cleaned and played vinyl that the average table owner wouldn't let within ten feet of their tables. I am continually amazed at how quiet and absent of pops and clicks most of this seemingly worn out vinyl is. Granted, if there is some big knarly scratch in the record I won't play it but for the vinyl that is loaded with surface scuffs, it usually sounds quite good. That same piece of vinyl would be almost unlistenable on my previous tables.

...just my $.02

[2bigears]

   good post Scott F.you are on the other side of the fence.there is no right or wrong side.there was a VPI-HRX that sold in one day on the Gon two days ago.those VPI's sure sell fast.the other 3 listed at the top of the thread are still fs.must be a good fan base on those decks and arms ....

[macrojack]

The big, reaching adventure toward state of the art in turntables which will serve forever can be viewed in two ways. There are people out there who reached for a Technics SP-10 MK II or an Empire Troubador or an Oracle Delphi and are, years later, as satisfied as you predicted.

So what keeps 2bigears from buying a well preserved one of these and assuming the same comfort level that these early investors enjoy?

So much of this whole thing (maybe all of it) is about perception. As long as you feel you have arrived, all is well. As soon as you divine that there may be a little something you are missing, then the threads start and the credit card has to come out.

I talked to ole KB hisself about Technics tables and asked him if I could upgrade and modify one of the 1200 models to rival my Sp-10 MK II. He said you could get pretty close but the motor difference was insurmountable.

Ralph Karsten claims to get excellent performance out of old Empire tables and I'm sure he does. Personally I feel that there is no substitute for mass in turntables. Isolation and set-up are both deal makers. Advantageous matching of cartridge and arm means everything. It's a hobby unto itself. And if you are not the soldering type, it's the most hands-on aspect of audio.

My last table was a Well-Tempered Reference. Nothing is quieter. But I decided that belt drive was inherently inferior to direct drive and made the change. Another situation where perception took over.

I'm glad I made that change because the Technics is a more refined design in terms of user friendliness and convenience. And was I ever glad to have a hinged dustcover again.

[BobM]

I took a very different approach to my TT experience. I had a Corian plinth made and had VPI parts (platter and bearing and stand alone motor) fitted to it. My research led me to believe Corian is dead quiet and one of the best materials for this application. I have since upgraded the arm (to a Moerch DP6) and added a speed controller designed by Mark Kelly.

What I get from most people and auduophiles who hear it is that it is incredibly quiet, with good pace and dynamics. About what you can expect from the big boys.the outlay was not trivial but probably a whole lot less than if I went for something comperable at retail.

Add one of the great phonostages (Hagerman Trumpet) and cartridges (Dynavector 20X) and it's a match made in heaven.

Enjoy,
Bob

[2bigears]

  Bob,that home built sounds really cool....you need to sell that to me,,,,wow,nicely done.must sound simply symphonic

[BobM]

It sounds pretty good. I had this done before the VPI Scouts were designed because I couldn't fit the bigger sized models into the cabinet I was using at the time. Not really an issue now with my new stands and listening room, but this little TT sings really nicely.
I wish I could post a picture or a link but I' on a Blackberry (no access to the site from work) and the BB interface on this site doesn't support that.

Bob

[andyr]

While the Phantom is their best arm, the older 2.2 is still really good and you might be able to snag one
of those dirt cheap from someone who is on the upgrade path.

Hi Jeff,

A mate of mine who fettles TTs for a local dealer (and has a TD150 and an LP12) had in a TT with the Phantom on ... and he knows the sound of the G2.2 on my LP12.

His opinion was that, while Graham had certainly put the low bass into the Phantom that is missing from the G2.2 (and, in fact, all the UPs he's ever heard), the "boogie" is significantly less than the G2.2 due to that magnetic damping system Bob has introduced.     He reckons it sucks the life right out of the music ... probably because it, in effect, imposes the equivalent of horizontal friction on the arm's movement?

So I, for one, am certainly not contemplating changing over my G2.2! 

Regards,

Andy