[mateo]

I'm trying to plan an integrated HT/2-channel setup, with no multichannel audio- I want to feed Blu-ray audio into the DAC of my choice.  Apparently, it is possible to output linear PCM from the PS3 (or other BD player) via regular optical out so long as it is only 2.0 channels.  Is there any disadvantage to doing this, aside from typical Toslink jitter concerns?  I assume that, since its listed as LPCM, the audio is uncompressed, but I'm wondering if there's any sketchy downconversion processing going on or if there's a dedicated 2.0 track on the disc itself, etc.

I'm a total newb to HT, so basically I'm just wondering if there's anything I'm missing here.

Thanks!

[Alwayswantmore]

Hi mateo,

I'm attempting to do the same (2-ch HT with external DAC). Some BluRay units support HD Dolby (uncompressed HD audio). But I'm not at all clear on whether or not this can be accessed via digital outs??? Hopefully someone will chime in with deeper technical knowledge. I've read everthing I could find on this topic, but still no answer.

[keenween]

I'm interested to know as well, I was thinking of doing the same.

[mateo]

Hi mateo,

I'm attempting to do the same (2-ch HT with external DAC). Some BluRay units support HD Dolby (uncompressed HD audio). But I'm not at all clear on whether or not this can be accessed via digital outs??? Hopefully someone will chime in with deeper technical knowledge. I've read everthing I could find on this topic, but still no answer.

My impression is that Dolby HD, or the other ones, are basically ways of losslessly compressing multichannel audio on a disc, and that it all becomes PCM anyway. But, having uncompressed PCM is I think mandatory...I'm just concerned about two channel. Meh, I don't know what I'm doing.

[oris98]

I tried using my PS3 optical out to my EA DAC1 -> VK31SE -> Spectron M3SE playing the PCM Stereo (24/96) from Celine Dion Live at Vegas BLU-RAY disc.  The result compared to multichannel 24/96 coming from my Pioneer HDMI receiver (preamp out) to my Parasound 1206 6 channel AMP,   I like the multichannel 24/96 better.   Some how the impact and detail level on multichannel 5.1 PCM HD 2496 is more live like.   I am not sure it is because the stereo PCM is down mixed from 5.1 ?  or it is because the Optical out from PS3 to my Optical in on my DAC1 is not optimized.   I never like using optical interface for 2 channel music anyway.   I was quite disappointed to my test result.   

[martyo]

On my Sony Blu-ray, ONLY non processed 2 channel are output thru the digital outs. You can only output multi channel with the HDMI.

[ted_b]

On my Sony Blu-ray, ONLY non processed 2 channel are output thru the digital outs. You can only output multi channel with the HDMI.

?  Although HDMI or mch analog outs is required for uncompressed 7.1 multichannel audio (or HDMI only in the case of compressed unencoded advanced audio codecs, like sending biotstreamed TrueHD or DTS HD MA to a processor) but good ole' coax/toslink is fine for the core 5.1 Dolby Digitals/DTS's of the world, just like a regular standard def DVD-Video.  If all you want to do is hear 2 channel audio, then set your Blu-Ray or whatever to 2 channel downmix and have at it.  You will not get uncompressed 24/96 high quality audio though, unless you stumble across the .1% of discs out there that have uncompressed pcm 2.0 tracks...something I wouldn't bank on.

[mateo]

You will not get uncompressed 24/96 high quality audio though, unless you stumble across the .1% of discs out there that have uncompressed pcm 2.0 tracks...something I wouldn't bank on.

This is what I was looking for...thanks.

[kbuzz3]

Not to hijack this thread, but on a similar note can the current crop of blu ray players output through conventional rca's to the tv at the same time outputting digital 2 channel through either the toslink or coax?

Also wondering why blu ray prices seem to be holding fast at around $399. Is this just early product life cycle? Is the license too expensive to buy for other "non sony" manufacturers? A Sony monoply without competition? A hold out until Xmas 2008?  I would have thought prices would be a little lower by now - at least an "el-cheapo" costoco version

[ricmon]

I have built a HTPC with Blu-Ray and HD-DVD.  I connect my HTPC to my Sony receiver via digital out from the MoBo and the reciver handles all the decoding no matter what the format is. 

[ricmon]

Also in the control panel for the audio device I can tell it to use PCM or let the receiver decode the detected signal.

[oris98]

Ricmon,

Just to get this straight here. Are you getting the Blu-ray video playing from your HTPC and the audio output can be bitstreamed to your Sony receiver using digital out (coax or Opt) ? (I assume your receiver can decode TureHD and DTS HD MA ?
This is meaning that your receiver will show DTSHD or BitStream Master or TureHD message on the display  ?
If this is true,  what software do you use to take the audio bitstream out to digital output of your PC ?
This is exactly what most of us would like to do.  I use my PS3 for blu-ray movies only because I cannot pass bitstream out from HTPC to receiver for decoding.  I hate sony forces you us to decode DTS HD MA internally and convert into PCM for HDMI output.  I am not sure how good is sony's codec for DTS HD Ma decoding.

[ted_b]

Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio (aka DTS HD MA) are NOT available via coax or toslink, as stated earlier.  The bandwidths are too big.  HDMI bitstream to a processor only, unless the player decodes them internally; then they can output via analog outs or HDMI (PCM).  But to use coax or toslink means downconverting these advanced audio codecs (compressed lossless) into the core DTS and Dolby Digital lossy versions.

[Alwayswantmore]

The new Panasonic BluRay was officially announced yesterday. It has internal decoders for HD audio, so you can use RCA outs. Not sure if this will help us 2ch guys  Press release...

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=245173&modelNo=Content05022008022415775&surfModel=Content05022008022415775

[ted_b]

Most BD players have internal HD audio decoders, that once enabled, allow decoded audio through rca analog outs and HDMI; what makes the new Panny exceptional is that it is one of the first to have the highest level of DTS (DTS HD Master Audio, losslessly compressed HD audio) decoded internally.  Up to now, most had competitor Dolby Labs's hirez compressed lossless version called TrueHD, and some lower level DTS "semi-hirez" versions like DTS HD (which was still lossy, but better than plain ole' DTS) but relied on a separate pre/processor to provide DTS HD Master Audio.  Now, with just eight (7.1) rca cables you can have all the advanced audio codecs (HD audio as you called them) decoded internally and sent out to a processor that has up to 7.1 analog ins.  Or.. if that processor has HDMI, then this decoded uncompressed PCM could be sent through it, without the processor having to have the latest and greatest TrueHD and DTS HD MA audio codec decoders onboard.

The Panny also has some Profile 1.2 stuff like BD-Live, etc but who cares.

[nicksgem10s]

Hi Ted,

Good points about the Panny being able to decode the new codecs in the unit and send the signal to ht receivers that need to utilize analog inputs. 

AFAIK the only BD player to offer this flexibility before this new Panasonic unit is the very pricey Denon Dvd-3800bdci which has a street price of about $1500 and some bugs according to AVS members.

I am constantly keeping an eye on the development of new BD players and currently enjoying the PS3 as an affordable and very flexible BD player.

Good thread everyone.

-Nick

[Alwayswantmore]

Most BD players have internal HD audio decoders, that once enabled, allow decoded audio through rca analog outs and HDMI; what makes the new Panny exceptional is that it is one of the first to have the highest level of DTS (DTS HD Master Audio, losslessly compressed HD audio) decoded internally.  Up to now, most had competitor Dolby Labs's hirez compressed lossless version called TrueHD, and some lower level DTS "semi-hirez" versions like DTS HD (which was still lossy, but better than plain ole' DTS) but relied on a separate pre/processor to provide DTS HD Master Audio.  Now, with just eight (7.1) rca cables you can have all the advanced audio codecs (HD audio as you called them) decoded internally and sent out to a processor that has up to 7.1 analog ins.  Or.. if that processor has HDMI, then this decoded uncompressed PCM could be sent through it, without the processor having to have the latest and greatest TrueHD and DTS HD MA audio codec decoders onboard.

The Panny also has some Profile 1.2 stuff like BD-Live, etc but who cares.

Ted -- hope knowone minds if I get into my personal situation -- but you have a great handle on BluRay, and I'd love your take on this...

What's the best bet for a good 2ch BluRay player, without spending a grand?

I have the latest 42" Pioneer Kuro Elite plasma and a very good 2ch audio system featuring RWA Sig 30.2, Omega Hemps (single drivers), and a small ACI sub (the system has killer imaging, great dynamics and a large and deep soundstage!). I'm also in a small room, so multichannel audio is almost self defeating.

I'm looking for:

- A reliable player (users report some players can be flaky on some discs, where the Pana 30 good marks here)
- Good upscale for standard DVDs (unless the upscale built into the Pioneer Elite negates the need for the BluRay player to perform upscale???)
- The best 2ch sound possible

I also have a high-quality Wadia CD player, with digital inputs (i.e. the player also serves as a DAC). Using Wadia's digital inputs eliminates the need to physically switch ICs at the amp, so I have a strong preference to use Wadia's digital inputs if possible. The Wadia accepts RCA, BNC, TosLink and some other form of fiber or glass that I've never tried. I will probably run RCA to BNC if possible. The Wadia supports Redbook CDs (i.e. not built for high definition formats like SACD).

Any input on this is greatly appreciated. Kent

[ted_b]

I have the Sammy 1400.  It's my first BD player, and although there are many reports of flakiness, I've been religious about fw upgrades, etc and had no issues.  it's not my end-all, but suffices so far.  However, it has very few encoders onboard and requires a good HDMI 1.2+ processor (I use the Onkyo pro 885 and plan to have it modded).  You'll want a Panny 50, frankly.  The Panny 30 is nice but it is without ANY lossless encoders onboard, so 2 channel will be lossy and not great.  The Panny 50 will decode everything and send glorious lossless out the anlaog outs.  Of course, in 2 channel you'll always get a downmix from 5.1 or 7.1 (or be listening to the front l/r's and miss all the other channels) unless the disc has a 2 channel track selection....very very few except NIN's Ghost and a couple others likely.

[Alwayswantmore]

I have the Sammy 1400.  It's my first BD player, and although there are many reports of flakiness, I've been religious about fw upgrades, etc and had no issues.  it's not my end-all, but suffices so far.  However, it has very few encoders onboard and requires a good HDMI 1.2+ processor (I use the Onkyo pro 885 and plan to have it modded).  You'll want a Panny 50, frankly.  The Panny 30 is nice but it is without ANY lossless encoders onboard, so 2 channel will be lossy and not great.  The Panny 50 will decode everything and send glorious lossless out the anlaog outs.  Of course, in 2 channel you'll always get a downmix from 5.1 or 7.1 (or be listening to the front l/r's and miss all the other channels) unless the disc has a 2 channel track selection....very very few except NIN's Ghost and a couple others likely.

Thanks Ted. The changes to audio was the primary reason I've been waiting on this unit. And certainly lossless should be a benefit. You mention analog out should be good. What about digital out (PMC)? Any idea if the benefits extend to the digital domain (I'm guessing there is no way to use the internal decoding then send a digital signal, but I'm asking just to make sure -- again, being able to use the Wadia as a DAC greatly simplifies changing audio sources fir the 2ch system). Thanks again, Kent

[ted_b]

Yes, sorry, forgot about your DAC.  Sending uncompressed PCM over coax/spdif is limited to 24/192 and not sure how the downmixing from 5.1 to 2.0 is handled resolution-wise, but should be ok..?   Point is, you need to at least start with the best audio possible, and the Panny 50 will likely be your best bet (on paper at least).  We all know it's only specs, and that specs are simply one aspect.  Execution is key..but Panasonic has been pretty good about that.  It won't be an audiophile's dream, but then again BD players aren't built to that anyway.  Maybe with NIN and Neil Young and others jumping on the lets-use-Blue-Ray-for-hi-rez-music-distribution bandwagon we'll see players that pay special attention to the analog stages, dac environment, etc.  We can only hope.

I've been saying all along that this time it's different than DVD-Audio (let alone SACD).  Those players were niche, a very small subset of the DVD (speaking of DVD-A for a minute) population.  This time all BD players, run of the mill and up, will be able to handle 8 channels of 24/192.  Heck, a trailer or preview or short subject intro into some super hi-rez audio samples could be easily included on major video releases.  The average buyer will at least become aware, if not blown away, by the prospects.