AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: dbx on 13 Apr 2016, 05:18 am
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Does anyone notice their Exotica 3 not putting out enough bass from the active subwoofer section?
I have not changed any of the dial settings since receiving my Exotica 3s. The disclaimer that comes with the Exotica 3s is that the settings are tuned in to optimum settings. if you change it, you are on your own. Yet, they do not put out the bass anywhere near what I am getting from my Soundscape 8s. The Exotica 3s do put out sound from the subwoofer.
Note that I am using only the stereo inputs - I am not running a line in setting into the subwoofer section. When I put in a line in setting from my ipad as a test, the bass still felt shallow, not hard hitting like the SS8 does with ease.
But the Exotica 3s do sound great though in its midrange and tweeters.
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Please list what else is in your system. And specifically power treatment?
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I have heard the E3 and to say the bass is impressive would be an understatement. Did they sound OK at first and then you noticed a change, or have they been this way from the get-go? How long have you had these?
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They have always been like this. I Had them for about 6 months and lived with them just fine as being bass shallow.
However, after hooking up the Soundscape 8 back into the system with all the bass it outputs, it makes me crave the exotica 3 to put some muscle into the bass output.
Do you know your dial settings on your exotica 3?
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Please list what else is in your system. And specifically power treatment?
Onkyo Grand Integra M508 Power Amp and P308 Preamp stereo - dual mono design.
Toshiba sd9200 DVD Player
Wyred 4 Sound dac2 dsd-se da converter
I have a belkin power filter. Cant remember the model though - i should be able to find out more tomorrow.
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Can you try without the power filter tomorrow? You could try with the sub amps not plugged into it, and then without the power filter at all if you don't get what you're looking to get.
My guess is a resonances from the power filter is causing a problem with the sub amps.
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You have a setting out of whack. Have you ever had them cranking properly? If not then it is a simple thing to try. Start with the gain control first - is each speaker set the same level? If not then one was probably moved. Otherwise remember the setting and tweak them up a skosh.
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dbx -
If you remove the cage covering the amp controls, you can adjust the gain upwards until you are happy with the results. Bass is room dependent (and a matter of personal taste). But the gain of the woofer section can be adjusted to taste with no problem. I would not touch any of the other controls, however, as the phase, crossover, etc. were dialed in before we shipped the speakers and those settings will not change.
- Jim
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Thanks Jim.
I removed the cage and noticed the three dials, but have not touched any of them after reading the disclaimer that came with the speakers. I will try tinkering with the gain setting tonight.
Out of curiosity, would the phase and crossover settings be the same for every Exotica 3?
And before shipping an Exotica 3, perhaps marker settings showing the reference points around the phase crossover section of the dials be helpful in case someone accidentally moves a dial, or has little kids around?
I will also move the power cable that is going to the subwoofer off of the AC filter as it was previously suggested to see if there is an improvement.
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Yes, the gain is the only thing you want to deal with.
As to whether or not the settings are the same for every Exotica 3, I don't know. You can't assume every driver and every amp will perform exactly the same. And the controls might vary in terms of performance as well. So we calibrate each pair before it ships.
Marking them is probably a good idea, although we would have to find a very fine marking pen.
- Jim
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Thanks Jim.
I removed the cage and noticed the three dials, but have not touched any of them after reading the disclaimer that came with the speakers. I will try tinkering with the gain setting tonight.
Out of curiosity, would the phase and crossover settings be the same for every Exotica 3?
And before shipping an Exotica 3, perhaps marker settings showing the reference points around the phase crossover section of the dials be helpful in case someone accidentally moves a dial, or has little kids around?
I will also move the power cable that is going to the subwoofer off of the AC filter as it was previously suggested to see if there is an improvement.
It's important that you try without any AC filter plugged in as well. If it is the source of the problem then it can happen just by being on the same AC line from the breaker. (not necessarily, but it can)
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Yes, the gain is the only thing you want to deal with.
As to whether or not the settings are the same for every Exotica 3, I don't know. You can't assume every driver and every amp will perform exactly the same. And the controls might vary in terms of performance as well. So we calibrate each pair before it ships.
Marking them is probably a good idea, although we would have to find a very fine marking pen.
- Jim
Seems like there should be a way to hold your setting with something that locks the knob in place such as a pin, and can easily be removed and unlocked if the settings need to be changed. Returning the knob to the original location and reinserting the pin would ensure proper alignment with factory settings. Just an example of what came to mind.
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Also what comes to mind - to take a picture of the knob settings on each of the Exotica 3 speakers. This way, if you don't want to make marker settings on the Erotica 3, you would always have a picture reference of the settings.
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Jim should not put a disclaimer in the back that scares folks from touching the gain setting on the amp. With all kinds of amps/preams/processors/receivers out there with myriads of variable impedance matches even before considering room interaction, there is no freaking way Jim can dial in the woofers for his customers without going out on location because he doesn't know how your amp drives the mids and highs.
You need to level match the sections after you receive the E3s. :duh:
I don't have the E3s but I have an active system and I tweak the balance for different genres of music for god's sake -- different compression scheme between rock and classical recordings. I encourage you to play with the knobs. :lol:
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Jim should not put a disclaimer in the back that scares folks from touching the gain setting on the amp. With all kinds of amps/preams/processors/receivers out there with myriads of variable impedance matches even before considering room interaction, there is no freaking way Jim can dial in the woofers for his customers without going out on location because he doesn't know how your amp drives the mids and highs.
You need to level match the sections after you receive the E3s. :duh:
I don't have the E3s but I have an active system and I tweak the balance for different genres of music for god's sake -- different compression scheme between rock and classical recordings. I encourage you to play with the knobs. :lol:
Jim includes such a disclaimer in the documentation that comes with purchasing an Exotica 3 - I do not have the doc in front of me at work - but he does make the claim here as well. The dials are optimally tuned for the performance of the speaker - particularly in the phase and crossover settings on the back of the Exotica 3.
Unfortunately, most of us, including myself, do not have the luxury of having an active crossover system. I assume this is what you meant when you say that you have an active system.
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You probably won't be able to hear the difference as long as you get it back real close to the location. Even if it was off by a 1/16th an inch you may not be able to tell by ear.
I wouldn't touch anything but gain.
However I sincerely doubt the gain is the problem. The only thing that would make sense for that is if the room somehow was gobbling up the bass frequencies.
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You probably won't be able to hear the difference as long as you get it back real close to the location. Even if it was off by a 1/16th an inch you may not be able to tell by ear.
I wouldn't touch anything but gain.
However I sincerely doubt the gain is the problem. The only thing that would make sense for that is if the room somehow was gobbling up the bass frequencies.
Hi Folsom.
I am not certain that it is the room. The Exotica 3s have front firing bass drivers. When I stand in front of them, I don't hear much energy coming from the bass. There is some energy, but it is not much, and one would not be so impressed. My preamp bass setting is at zero. (Even with no bass output from the subs, the detail is still amazing with the Exotica 3s.)
If I swap it for the Soundscape 8 in the same equipment - there is no comparison. I would have to turn the bass control down from -6dB to -8dB (3 to 4 settings down from zero). Still - there is no comparison. I can have the Soundscape 8 placed anywhere in the room - and still have no escape from the deep, lush, rhythmic bass that it offers. The Exoticas are not even trying to compete - so it may be a gain issue, or a power issue
So I don't believe it is the room acoustics. I should know more tonight when I get home and will post my results.
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Is the power cable in tightly and the green light on?
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Yes it is. It turns red when there is no signal after a certain amount of time.
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A very simple basic test is use a pink noise source (e.g. wav or flac file) then measure it with a free RTA app on a phone or tablet. No special gear or mics are needed.
http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_pinknoise.php (http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_pinknoise.php)
http://www.studiosixdigital.com/audiotools-modules-2/acoustic-analysis-modules/rta/ (http://www.studiosixdigital.com/audiotools-modules-2/acoustic-analysis-modules/rta/)
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Did the sound change when you "upgraded" the capacitors in the Exotica 3s? Are you running a signal to the plate amps?
Does anyone notice their Exotica 3 not putting out enough bass from the active subwoofer section?
I have not changed any of the dial settings since receiving my Exotica 3s. The disclaimer that comes with the Exotica 3s is that the settings are tuned in to optimum settings. if you change it, you are on your own. Yet, they do not put out the bass anywhere near what I am getting from my Soundscape 8s. The Exotica 3s do put out sound from the subwoofer.
Note that I am using only the stereo inputs - I am not running a line in setting into the subwoofer section. When I put in a line in setting from my ipad as a test, the bass still felt shallow, not hard hitting like the SS8 does with ease.
But the Exotica 3s do sound great though in its midrange and tweeters.
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The signal did not change in the bass section when the caps were upgraded. This part was not touched. The speakers were bass shy since it was acquired in my possession.
The audio signal is acquired to the binding posts only - which puts out sound to the bass drivers. I don't have a dedicated sub output going into the line in of the Exotica 3.
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I just want to verify that you have power cables going to the amps on the speakers, and the amps are turned on.
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Yes, the amp on the speaker does turn on and there is some activity. I do get bass - but it is shallow. On the speaker amp - if there is no power - or on standby - the LED turns red. When there is power - the plate amp is on and the LED turns green.
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Jim should not put a disclaimer in the back that scares folks from touching the gain setting on the amp. With all kinds of amps/preams/processors/receivers out there with myriads of variable impedance matches even before considering room interaction, there is no freaking way Jim can dial in the woofers for his customers without going out on location because he doesn't know how your amp drives the mids and highs.
Yeah, I'd like hear more info as to why adjusting the phase and crossover is discouraged.
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Jim should not put a disclaimer in the back that scares folks from touching the gain setting on the amp. With all kinds of amps/preams/processors/receivers out there with myriads of variable impedance matches even before considering room interaction, there is no freaking way Jim can dial in the woofers for his customers without going out on location because he doesn't know how your amp drives the mids and highs.
You need to level match the sections after you receive the E3s. :duh:
I don't have the E3s but I have an active system and I tweak the balance for different genres of music for god's sake -- different compression scheme between rock and classical recordings. I encourage you to play with the knobs. :lol:
My understanding of the E3 is that, it just connects like any other passive speaker. The level between the mid and woofer are already been matched at factory. So basically the power section are signaled from speakers wires internally. Unlike adding a subwoofer in your system where the signal comes from RCA. The design is not intended to account room interaction but the drivers.
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I think the problem related to lack of bass might be related to the Q value of the woofer section. A high Q with play lower but will lack the punch. Lower Q will give better punch. If you have simulation of woofer apps, You can see how large boxes vs small boxes curves.
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DBX,
First off, I think using the line input on the plate amps is discouraged greatly! I hope when you say that you ran the speakers off of a line out of your IPAD, that you don't mean into the plate amps. Using the speaker terminals, and the line input simultaneously, could have broken the amplifiers.
There seems to be something wrong with the setup however. Any way to test for phase? Maybe one amplifier is set out of phase? Are the drivers moving with music playing?
I will say, that the bass of the E3s is different sounding from any bass I have ever had in my room. Its super tight, but you tend to just hear the intended note, and not the reverberating driver overhang.
It certainly can change the perception of the amount of bass, but it tends to be more accurate to my ears.
Also, I wouldn't discount position. The SS8 and the E3 use two totally different mechanisms for outputting bass, with one using passive radiators, and the other being sealed, front firing, servo. I wouldn't expect them to sound best in similar spots, given how they may differently couple with the room.
How close are you to Jim? Perhaps shipping them back might be in order to make sure everything is working correctly.
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Are you running the plate amps into the belkin power conditioner?
If so, make sure the plate amps aren't plugged into any of the circuits that are current limiting. That could make a difference perhaps.
I had a belkin conditioner a long time ago, and I think only two of the outlets are built for high current.
Might be choking the amplifiers for juice.
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Are these the same E3's that were in for a review with Home Theater High Fidelity and the reviewer thought they lacked in bass too? Just throwing it out there n case there indeed might be something off...
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I don't know if these have ever been taken apart, but reading this it sounds a lot like the internal wiring might not be right. There are schematics floating around here on AC showing how the servo circuit and driver circuit need to be wired. It is almost like the servo circuit is shorted not letting the woofers move at all, or maybe the wiring to the servos and drivers got reversed. I do remember that if the wiring is wrong, you get almost nothing for output; when the wiring is right, it hits fast and hard - it is an obvious night-and-day difference.
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DBX,
First off, I think using the line input on the plate amps is discouraged greatly! I hope when you say that you ran the speakers off of a line out of your IPAD, that you don't mean into the plate amps. Using the speaker terminals, and the line input simultaneously, could have broken the amplifiers.
I believe you are thinking of using the xlr and line input at the same time. I dont ever recall in Jims documentation that using only the line input or xlr was discouraged. I quick tested only one speaker with line input from the ipad, and the drivers reacted as they should (without any input into the speaker terminal). There is no damage as there is still sound from the drivers. No line input bing used at this time as i am listening to them as i write this.
There seems to be something wrong with the setup however. Any way to test for phase? Maybe one amplifier is set out of phase? Are the drivers moving with music playing?
I will say, that the bass of the E3s is different sounding from any bass I have ever had in my room. Its super tight, but you tend to just hear the intended note, and not the reverberating driver overhang.
It certainly can change the perception of the amount of bass, but it tends to be more accurate to my ears.
The E3 and the SS8 are in the same position when in use. No bass impact is noticed when using the E3.
How close are you to Jim? Perhaps shipping them back might be in order to make sure everything is working correctly.
I will thoroughly exhaust all options before shipping back and forth - as it will be costly.
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I don't know if these have ever been taken apart, but reading this it sounds a lot like the internal wiring might not be right. There are schematics floating around here on AC showing how the servo circuit and driver circuit need to be wired. It is almost like the servo circuit is shorted not letting the woofers move at all, or maybe the wiring to the servos and drivers got reversed. I do remember that if the wiring is wrong, you get almost nothing for output; when the wiring is right, it hits fast and hard - it is an obvious night-and-day difference.
I reviewed this with Jim. the wiring is set up correctly. I have a picture of the back of my speakers which i will upload shortly.
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I have not yet tampered with any of the dial settings. Let me know your thoughts.
Sorry i cannot rotate this pic here on the circle. The translation between my ipad to AC image upload does not translate as it should.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=141127)
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Can you try without the power filter tomorrow? You could try with the sub amps not plugged into it, and then without the power filter at all if you don't get what you're looking to get.
My guess is a resonances from the power filter is causing a problem with the sub amps.
I erred in one of my statements - the E3s are plugged into an isobar on a different circuit from my belkin - which is handling the rest of the stereo system. I now have the speaker power plugged directly into the wall. No difference. I will be plugging them back into my isobar for protection.
I dont think the belkin is choking any of the equipment as i have used it for years - which it has never given any issue with any of my equipment.
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accidental duplicate post
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I dont think the belkin is choking any of the equipment as i have used it for years - which it has never given any issue with any of my equipment.
That doesn't mean anything, not really. It's equipment dependent so it's case by case if it were causing a resonance.
So as long as the Belkin is on an entirely different circuit (not just AC receptacle) then the trial showed that it's not the Belkin.
As it stands now the only difference is the speakers. But, do you have a spare amplifier to try of any kind (for speakers which is also signal to sub amps, correct?)? Then we can make sure that it's not some sort of impedance problem or oscillation from the amplifier.
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That doesn't mean anything, not really. It's equipment dependent so it's case by case if it were causing a resonance.
So as long as the Belkin is on an entirely different circuit (not just AC receptacle) then the trial showed that it's not the Belkin.
They are on sepeate circuits.
As it stands now the only difference is the speakers. But, do you have a spare amplifier to try of any kind (for speakers which is also signal to sub amps, correct?)? Then we can make sure that it's not some sort of impedance problem or oscillation from the amplifier.
I have a duplicate power amp.
I have flipped a switch from low to high on the extra bass section. I am hearing more deep bass since flipping the switch. The bass is a bit more noticeable than before, but it is impactful. I like what i am hearing. I will see how it goes tonight.
I plan to increase the gain as a next step. I am curious to know what others have their gain settings?
Thanks all for your time.
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There seems to be a few issues that need addressing here.
In calibrating these, we start by measuring the natural roll off of the W8 which is being used as a midrange driver. It normally starts rolling off around 110Hz. We then set the phase so that the output is the highest in the crossover region indicating they are in phase. Finally, we adjust the gain so the FR is flat in the crossover region.
The plate amps take their input directly from the signal going to the binding posts. So it makes no difference what amp you use or the gain of the amp. The servo circuitry will track the input signal.
Since the input of the plate amps are connected directly to your amplifier, you should NEVER connect a preamp to the preamp input at the same time an amp is connected to the binding posts. You would end up with the output of the preamp connected directly to the output of the amp and this could cause problems. That is one reason we put a cage over the amp controls and inputs.
One thing we state in the documentation is that you are free to adjust the gain of the woofer section to your liking. But we recommend not touching any other controls unless you have some measurement equipment in order to re-caibrate things. This is hard or impossible to do accurately by ear.
Think about this: The phase relationship between the midrange driver and the woofers will never change. So there is no reason to change that setting. Also, the W8 will roll off at the same frequency and this will not change either. So there is no reason to the crossover frequency. But you can certainly change the gain if you want more bass output. That is a matter of taste and bass is very room dependent.
With passive radiators, the SS8's are directing bass frequencies different than the E3's. So these two speaker models will load the room with deep bass in a completely different fashion.
Another thing to note is that if the woofers or plate amp are removed, it is imperative that the correct pair of wires are reconnected to the drivers and sensing coils. If you get those mixed up, the system will still work but the performance will be severely compromised since you are using much smaller gauge wires to send the signal to the woofers.
There is plenty of gain in the amps. You have a separate 300-watt amp driving each of the woofers So you should be able to set the gain to provide the level of bass you are looking for.
I should also note that in the picture you posted, the gain looks far too low. Mine are close to 12 o'clock. Your's look like someone adjusted them to about 10 o'clock. I'm sure this is way too low.
I hope this helps.
- Jim
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One thing we state in the documentation is that you are free to adjust the gain of the woofer section to your liking. But we recommend not touching any other controls unless you have some measurement equipment in order to re-caibrate things. This is hard or impossible to do accurately by ear.
If the amp should fail you have to send the speaker(s) back to the factory for calibration?
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Sorry i cannot rotate this pic here on the circle. The translation between my ipad to AC image upload does not translate as it should.
Once the image is in your gallery you should be able to easily rotate it.
Gallery > Manage my albums > Click on album > Click on image
You will see Rotate left and Rotate right buttons at the bottom right.
Steve
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=141125)
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If the amp should fail you have to send the speaker(s) back to the factory for calibration?
Probably not. We know the frequencies involved and can set the phase and gain before shipping replacement amps since the driver response variance is extremely small and the cabinet dimensions are fixed in the design.
- Jim
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Once the image is in your gallery you should be able to easily rotate it.
Gallery > Manage my albums > Click on album > Click on image
You will see Rotate left and Rotate right buttons at the bottom right.
Steve
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=141125)
Thanks SRB. I managed to fix the image.
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Well this sounds simple, just set the grain near 12' .... That's GOOD, no big problems.
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Like someone mentioned earlier, just take a picture of the settings on each amp and then you can do whatever you want. Try the gain first and go from there. I have a pair of GR Research Super V's which use the dual 12" woofers and I play with them all the time. After awhile you get used to what you can do and dial them to your room and taste.
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How about the bass extension switch?
Doesn't this alter the roll off and curve of the rythmik without messing the cross over and phase?
This should make the subs section sound a bit diferent.
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One additional thought this morning from AXPONA...
If any of the woofers were wired out of phase, it would, for the most part, cancel out the output of that pair. I don't recall if this is possible (the quick connects might be different sizes), but that would be an issue as well.
- Jim
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Judging by dbx's avatar I'm guessing these are the ones sent in for review found here...
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=137362.0
Jim are these the same set of E3's? If they are, is it just a coincidence two people have had bass issues in their rooms. From what I remember hearing last year at Newport, bass was not lacking in the least...
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I have not yet tampered with any of the dial settings. Let me know your thoughts.
Sorry i cannot rotate this pic here on the circle. The translation between my ipad to AC image upload does not translate as it should.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=141127)
Your gain should be set @ 12:00 as mine is (as set by salk) , one or two clicks make a big difference in bass output and yours is set @ 10:00 , that is six or seven clicks to low , may even try one or two clicks past 12:00
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Has the OP tried raising the amp's gain? As Jim mentioned the current setting looks to be too low per the picture provided. It seems like a very simple adjustment to make to see if it helps with bass output.
Bill
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Has the OP tried raising the amp's gain? As Jim mentioned the current setting looks to be too low per the picture provided. It seems like a very simple adjustment to make to see if it helps with bass output.
Bill
It doesn't even look like it's on.
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The E3 got plenty of bass.
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any update?
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It doesn't even look like it's on.
Green is on, red is in standby waiting for a signal. With my Super V's My volume dial is set at about 2:00 and my midrange and tweeter are 97db efficient. I can't imagine 10:00 is enough, sounds like 12:00 is the magic number for your speakers.
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Your gain should be set @ 12:00 as mine is (as set by salk) , one or two clicks make a big difference in bass output and yours is set @ 10:00 , that is six or seven clicks to low , may even try one or two clicks past 12:00
Just for the record, as I don't have a pair of these myself, are the adjustment dials on this version of the servo amps stepped controls? If so, that is a really nice change to see from an end user standpoint. I know that someone will say that they 'need' a setting that just 'has' to be between steps, but for me that was one of the things I found most challenging in setting up prior rythmik amps - getting both sides to match by eye. Also makes fixing setups in the field for manufacturers like Salk easier too - "Count X clicks from all the way [left or right] and you're good."
I hope for the OP dialing in the gain was all that it took. :thumb:
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Just for the record, as I don't have a pair of these myself, are the adjustment dials on this version of the servo amps stepped controls? If so, that is a really nice change to see from an end user standpoint. I know that someone will say that they 'need' a setting that just 'has' to be between steps, but for me that was one of the things I found most challenging in setting up prior rythmik amps - getting both sides to match by eye. Also makes fixing setups in the field for manufacturers like Salk easier too - "Count X clicks from all the way [left or right] and you're good."
I hope for the OP dialing in the gain was all that it took. :thumb:
All of the dials are stepped so I just count from full on or full off, otherwise it is difficult to get them right. I think the steps are small enough you don't have a problem getting them just right, at least I don't.
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Definitely try increasing the volume on the plate amp. Mine is at about 11:00 or so.
DBX- I currently own E3s, and I also owned the SS8s. I will say they load the room completely differently. The SS8s hit very very hard on the low end, it was almost like those passive radiators were flooding the room with ultra-low bass. With the E3s, I felt the same ultra-low frequencies, just not as loud. In fact, I came to learn that on music I didn't like it, so I moved the filter up as high as it would go on the plate amp. Set to "high" on the bass extension knob, I believe. I also have the filter at 24 db/Octave, which I believe is the standard setting.
With the E3s and hard floors/ceilings, I have a null that I didn't have with the SS8s due to floor/ceiling bounce and interaction between the woofers and midwoofer (right around 100-120 hz). There's nothing to be done in my current house, as I can't install any treatments in the ceiling. I didn't have the same null with the SS8s, but this is all just random chance based on room dimensions.
You shouldn't find the bass on the E3s lacking, so turn that volume up on the plate amp and let us know if that helps.
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Hopefully our OP is happily listening to music, with the bass gain set somewhere above zero. :thumb:
Hopefully, when he runs out of tears and breath, he'll follow up herein.
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Hello all
Sorry I have not touched back. I have been busy with some commitment weekend activities and also managed to enjoy the E3s. So let me say a few things here to clear up some things.
It may get lengthy, but hopefully it will all make sense.
First and foremost, the way I have been using the E3s since getting them at its default knob settings on the plate amp, with a crossover rebuild - up until my original post here - the E3s sound wonderful - even if it sounds as if I were using it as a bookshelf speaker with small subwoofer bass output. Credit Jim and his crew for creating and building one of the finest speakers in the world as his flagship speaker. I left the knob settings as they were as I received the speakers some months back, since I tend to be conservative (or liberal - pending on my mood) with the bass settings . Since I have been enjoying the sound, I had no reason to make any changes. Until I replaced the crossovers in my SS8, and noticed tremendous differences between the two speakers in the bass department.
One of the first things I did after starting this thread is to see why I do not notice much bass in my E3s despite the fact, I can hear the woofers working. So one night - after powering off the power amp that is connected to the E3s for the night, I connected my ipad to the line input on the plate amp, and played back a movie trailer on youtube. Sure enough the bass was there, but it was nothing compared to the SS8. So before doing anything else - after disconnecting the ipad from the line input on the plate amp, I decided to open this post and get the viewpoints of others on how their E3s are performing with the settings on their plate amps. Good thing I did too, because I don't want to mess with any of the knob settings on the E3s.
After digesting some of your input, and before going any further - the very next night I switched the Bass Extension from Low to High. I used broadcast television programming as source material and noticed an increase with bass presence, which sounded very pleasant. I continued to listen to the program I had on throughout the night - so we know at this point that the plate amps and the drivers are working as they should. I still was gathering input from everyone here, including Jim Salk, to see what everyone thought of the image I posted containing the settings that I had on the plate amp.
Of course everyone chimed in and agreed unanimously that the volume setting was too low at the 10 o clock position. So the next night, I turned it up to nearly 12 o clock - 5 positions up from the current settings I had on each speaker (and switched back to low on the Bass Extension) and of course, the bass output is no longer shy - forcing me to drop the bass setting on my preamp from 0 to -3. I have since dialed down the bass 2 clicks on each speaker.
So now, I am happy. But of course now I have another bass question, which is being forced thanks to having an SS8 to compare to, which I will open another post for later on today.
Thanks much everyone !!!
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One additional thought this morning from AXPONA...
If any of the woofers were wired out of phase, it would, for the most part, cancel out the output of that pair. I don't recall if this is possible (the quick connects might be different sizes), but that would be an issue as well.
- Jim
Yes, the quick connects are of a different size - so you cannot screw this up. But for those that do not know (Jim and his team knows this) - each of the woofers are connected by two sets of wires - one of the wires goes to the Driver Coil, the other set of wires goes to the Servo Coil. It is possible to switch these, so if anyone has any need to remove the wiring to the drivers, make certain to label these wires. On my sets of wires, one set of wires is of a smaller diameter of the other wire. The smaller set goes to the servo coil, the larger goes to the driver coil. And the larger set has black shrinkwrap around it to denote that the set of wires goes to the driver coil.
It may take a while to notice the different size wires if removing the woofers from the housing. So label the wires as you remove them from the woofer in case there is no difference in thickness, or if you do not have a special shrinkwrap around your wiring.
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How about the bass extension switch?
Doesn't this alter the roll off and curve of the rythmik without messing the cross over and phase?
This should make the subs section sound a bit diferent.
Yes it did. I set it to high the very next night and did notice a difference in bass output, which sounded pretty good from the programming material. I have put it back to the low setting since. I may turn it back on high and listen again with music material this weekend.
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There seems to be a few issues that need addressing here.
In calibrating these, we start by measuring the natural roll off of the W8 which is being used as a midrange driver. It normally starts rolling off around 110Hz. We then set the phase so that the output is the highest in the crossover region indicating they are in phase. Finally, we adjust the gain so the FR is flat in the crossover region.
The plate amps take their input directly from the signal going to the binding posts. So it makes no difference what amp you use or the gain of the amp. The servo circuitry will track the input signal.
I performed the test by connecting an ipad to the line input on the plate amp on one of the speakers with the power off from the amplifier. The goal was to hear the output of the bass only coming from the speakers. The test was a success. There was no need to test the other speaker as I was satisfied enough with testing only one speaker.
One thing we state in the documentation is that you are free to adjust the gain of the woofer section to your liking. But we recommend not touching any other controls unless you have some measurement equipment in order to re-caibrate things. This is hard or impossible to do accurately by ear.
Think about this: The phase relationship between the midrange driver and the woofers will never change. So there is no reason to change that setting. Also, the W8 will roll off at the same frequency and this will not change either. So there is no reason to the crossover frequency. But you can certainly change the gain if you want more bass output. That is a matter of taste and bass is very room dependent.
Take note all you future E3 owners out there!!! These settings were never touched.
With passive radiators, the SS8's are directing bass frequencies different than the E3's. So these two speaker models will load the room with deep bass in a completely different fashion.
Another thing to note is that if the woofers or plate amp are removed, it is imperative that the correct pair of wires are reconnected to the drivers and sensing coils. If you get those mixed up, the system will still work but the performance will be severely compromised since you are using much smaller gauge wires to send the signal to the woofers.
I worked with Jim on this to make certain that the wiring was set up correctly when I removed the woofers to check the wiring.
I should also note that in the picture you posted, the gain looks far too low. Mine are close to 12 o'clock. Your's look like someone adjusted them to about 10 o'clock. I'm sure this is way too low.
I believe I received the speakers this way. It is also quite possible that the Soundscape 8s may have been jealous and taken liberties to adjust the settings on the E3s one day while I was at work.
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So now, I am happy. But of course now I have another bass question, which is being forced thanks to having an SS8 to compare to, which I will open another post for later on today.
Thanks much everyone !!!
Glad you're enjoying the bass on the E3s now! I really did like the bass section on the SS8s, it was my favorite part of that speaker. For my next 3 way speaker from Salk it will be a tough choice between adding a dome to the new 3 way design, or adding a soft midwoofer and dome tweeter on top of the SS8 bass section. Those passive radiators really do a great job.
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Those passive radiators really do a great job.
They sure do!!! However, the only way I was able to realize this was by replacing the crossover in that section. Should move this discussion over to a different post.
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I think the likely scenario is that the reviewer who stated he changed the settings, didn't communicate that to Jim, and Jim didn't have time to verify the settings before sending the speakers to the OP.
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Hi DBX,
I've read this whole thread from the beginning and just wondering if you can clarify the following from one of your posts for me?
Since I have been enjoying the sound, I had no reason to make any changes. Until I replaced the crossovers in my SS8, and noticed tremendous differences between the two speakers in the bass department./quote]
The way I read this statement is that you didn't notice a shy bass until you replaced the crossovers in your SS8. So is there also a problem with the factory crossover in the SS8. Sorry I'm a bit confused by this information in your post.
Cheers Rod