AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Danny Richie on 19 Jun 2019, 08:38 pm
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I finally got a pair of these hooked up and burning is. Man, these things sound good.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/Super%20Mini-1.jpg)
I just through them on a pair of stands and adjusted the big triple servo subs a bit to blend with them.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/Super%20Mini-2.jpg)
And yes, even on fresh fire up these things image like crazy, even with a big pair of speakers right behind them.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/Super%20Mini-3.jpg)
They are easy to build and have simple crossovers. I just coated this pair in Duratex.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/Super%20Mini-4.jpg)
And Jay did a great job on the flat packs. Everything fit together great.
And they measure super good as well. Here is the on axis response.
(http://gr-research.com/measurements/super%20mini%20on%20axis%20response.jpg)
Oh, and here it is the way every other speaker company publishes their curves, on a 10db scale.
(http://gr-research.com/measurements/super%20mini%20on%20axis%2010db%20scale.jpg)
The crossing over of the drivers. And man oh man do these planar drivers blend well.
(http://gr-research.com/measurements/super%20mini%20crossover.jpg)
And one of the strengths of the planar drivers is how fast their are. This spectral decay is super fast and clean just like they sound.
(http://gr-research.com/measurements/super%20mini%20csd.jpg)
And the impedance is about as easy of a load as you can get.
(http://gr-research.com/measurements/super%20mini%20impedance.jpg)
You can stack them onto just about anything that will play from 200Hz and down.
I'm working on a in-expensive solution using M-165 woofers in a matching stand. Powered by their own plate amp will make them real easy to blend too.
So for the complete kit with flat pack it is only $1,049 for the pair.
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1049.00............. does that include crossovers?
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Aw, man!!! I've been waiting for this kit for several years. What's the sensitivity on these?
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1049.00............. does that include crossovers?
Yes.
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Aw, man!!! I've been waiting for this kit for several years. What's the sensitivity on these?
See the on axis frequency response. It averages 91db.
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The utterly seamless integration of the neo3 and neo10 has to be heard to be believed. I've not heard any speaker that uses a cone midrange that can match it.
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Glad you finally got to hear them setup. They are great here! :D
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Danny, call you tomorrow to order up a pair of these.
Glad to hear how well they sound.
Ben
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we have not had a chance to build out a pair yet so have not heard them. My hopes were to approach the imaging of the Wedgie's by keeping the baffle so narrow and rear mounting both the Neo3 and Neo10 in waveguides.
Good to hear both you and Rich are having impressive results with them :)
jay
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Danny, call you tomorrow to order up a pair of these.
Glad to hear how well they sound.
Ben
Looks like Ben's picked out his next kit :thumb:
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Mlundy, you got it!
I was looking for a reason to not go with these drivers, and this has pushed me to go for it.
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So for the complete kit with flat pack it is only $1,049 for the pair.
Awesome, looks simple enough that anyone should be able to assemble these with nominal effort, time or know how. Is there any No-Res on the short wing? Also, what exactly is the function and effect of No-Res in an OB design?
Just thinking out loud here, could this two way design work as a floor stander without the deep wing extending to the height of the drivers? Based on my limited DIY OB experiments, I didn't like the effect wings had on the soundstage and much preferred wingless OBs, but then again I didn't try damping the inside of the wings.
I'm working on a in-expensive solution using M-165 woofers in a matching stand. Powered by their own plate amp will make them real easy to blend too.
Would this be OB or enclosed?
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These are looking interesting but feel like parts of a speaker. They need that final step of being integrated with lower frequency drivers which look like they belong together.
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Just thinking out loud here, could this two way design work as a floor stander without the deep wing extending to the height of the drivers? Based on my limited DIY OB experiments, I didn't like the effect wings had on the soundstage and much preferred wingless OBs, but then again I didn't try damping the inside of the wings.
I am working on extending it to the floor with a lower section. It will likely be a powered lower section.
The wings have no ill effect to the sound stage. Without the wings it doesn't work at all. I'd have to compensate for a huge dipole peak and then they'd have to cross to something else at 400 to 500Hz. And splitting the mid-range is not a good idea.
And the No Rez dampens the wing and minimizes reflections off of it.
And everything I am working on below will be open baffle as well.
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These are looking interesting but feel like parts of a speaker. They need that final step of being integrated with lower frequency drivers which look like they belong together.
I agree 100%. I'm working on it.
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Ordered a pair. Thanks for answering my questions, Danny.
I plan to post build pics, but with such simple cabinets maybe just finishing pics. Plan to epoxy like my h frames.
Be back soon!
Can't wait.
Ben
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These are looking interesting but feel like parts of a speaker. They need that final step of being integrated with lower frequency drivers which look like they belong together.
Yes, yes, yes! :D :D :D
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Maybe not so finished looking but much improved sitting on top of the dual servos's. (Compliments Hollis audio.) :wink:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195780)
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On top of 3 M165's in a same sized cabinet as the lower part of the NX-Otica
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195781)
jay
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Would the M130 fit in the front baffle width, facilitating a cabinet build similar to the NX-oticas? Would say a quad of them be able to reach low enough in frequency to get a full-ish range design out of the deal?
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Would the M130 fit in the front baffle width, facilitating a cabinet build similar to the NX-oticas? Would say a quad of them be able to reach low enough in frequency to get a full-ish range design out of the deal?
Danny will chime in on that one but, I think for the lower frequencies in an OB configureation, the M165's are going to be a far better solution. Even in a sealed configuration, the M130's are only going to reach a -3db point of approx 70hz
In a smaller room, the 3 M165's may satisfy a lot ofpeope without supplementing low end with subs. With the M165x woofers in the NX-Otica's, I was getting down to about 40 hz , even a bit lower before they began to roll off. for a lot of music, this is very pesent to listen to.
In larger rooms, they will roll off much earlier, likely up near 80Hz and subs will still be needed for the last few octaves
jay
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On top of 3 M165's in a same sized cabinet as the lower part of the NX-Otica
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195781)
jay
Not that I am dissatisfied, but I would have strongly considered these with a plate amp to power the M-165 woofers as an alternative the Super 7s.
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Not that I am dissatisfied, but I would have strongly considered these with a plate amp to power the M-165 woofers as an alternative the Super 7s.
I've been thinking the same thing. I like the flexibility of being able to control the lower end.
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I've been thinking the same thing. I like the flexibility of being able to control the lower end.
How low would they go? I'm assuming you'd still need a sub or two with this configuration.
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How low would they go? I'm assuming you'd still need a sub or two with this configuration.
In a smaller room you may get down into the low 40's / high 30's , with the active M165's and for some, that will work on their own. to cover the lower couple octaves, supplement with the OB servo subs.
In larger room, they are going to roll off in the 80 hz area so in any larger room, you'll for sure want a pair of the subs.
Would be very similar to results folks are reporting with the NX Oticas
jay
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Okay you guys check this out and tell me what you think. It is my first attempt at the use of this new video blogging camera.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1s_xvsusaIXnu0u9Ec-b5jn1GiSLWOcrd/view?usp=sharing
The little camera has a dual mic (I think) on the front side of it. I am hand holding it and I am behind it (behind the microphone). But I think the sound came out okay.
I may do some more of this. Please feel free to critic the whole thing. Anything constructive is welcome.
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And here is a short video clip with audio. The creaking noises at the beginning is me getting in and out of the zero gravity chair. It sounds like an old lawn chair creaking in the video.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jkTbaaIj1DhLsBk64l-s_blb1ED7oYFS/view?usp=sharing
The obvious sound stage layering is lost in the recording. But interesting it shows how consistent the speakers sound off axis and from behind.
Let me know what you guys think of this one too.
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Well done. Worked well from my perspective.
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Love the videos. You should do more of these.
Why the no rez on the long wing?
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Love the videos. You should do more of these.
Why the no rez on the long wing?
The No Rez dampens out any resonance of the panel and absorbs some of the acoustic energy and minimizing surface reflection from it.
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Glad to see you posting videos. My question would be how much dynamic impact is lost in the 200 to 700 hz range due to only having one BG 10 driver?
PS Audio, trying to duplicate Arnie Nudell's statement speaker uses the BG 10 but has a 7" servo controlled driver to cover this range as they feel it's the heart of the musical range. So in their opinion the BG 10 does not have the movement of air to handle power passages. I would tend to agree with that. You do give up some transparency and perhaps coherance, but...
Rocket Ronny
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Hey, liked the videos. One thing I would like to see is maybe seeing how you integrate subs. Or however you go through any setup tweaks.
Did sound good and I particularly like the explanations.
Ben
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Danny nice to hear your voice yo put with the face. Great demo and explanation for the system.
Impressive sound.
Thanks
Gary
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Glad to see you posting videos. My question would be how much dynamic impact is lost in the 200 to 700 hz range due to only having one BG 10 driver?
PS Audio, trying to duplicate Arnie Nudell's statement speaker uses the BG 10 but has a 7" servo controlled driver to cover this range as they feel it's the heart of the musical range. So in their opinion the BG 10 does not have the movement of air to handle power passages. I would tend to agree with that. You do give up some transparency and perhaps coherance, but...
Rocket Ronny
This subtlety is what, I think, I had a hard time putting to words when I first heard the Super-7 compared to the LS-X. I have yet to hear them myself, but based on some comments I've read here about them, I think this is the difference in flavor between the kits that use the neo3/neo10 combo and the neo3/m165nq. The great thing right now is that Danny has kits of both flavors that go from small to big (super-mini/super-7/serenity line arrays vs. nx-otica monitor/nx-otica/nx-extreme) so there seems to be a speaker of either flavor for just about any size room that can handle an open baffle speaker.
Danny, cool video. :thumb: You might want to check out a few how-to videos on YouTube from some of the bloggers on there who have really elevated this to an art form at this point, and even better in a lot of cases have done a lot of impressive work with cheap/free tools/tricks/hacks.
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Hey, liked the videos. One thing I would like to see is maybe seeing how you integrate subs. Or however you go through any setup tweaks.
Did sound good and I particularly like the explanations.
Ben
+1
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Glad to see you posting videos. My question would be how much dynamic impact is lost in the 200 to 700 hz range due to only having one BG 10 driver?
PS Audio, trying to duplicate Arnie Nudell's statement speaker uses the BG 10 but has a 7" servo controlled driver to cover this range as they feel it's the heart of the musical range. So in their opinion the BG 10 does not have the movement of air to handle power passages. I would tend to agree with that. You do give up some transparency and perhaps coherance, but...
Rocket Ronny
I've done a lot of development in this area of where to bring in servo control and where not to. Brian Ding came up once with a two way monitor equipped with 5" woofers that had servo control. It was an MTM design. I designed a passive filter for it that allowed us to switch between all passive filter driven by my big tube amps or passive filter only on the tweeter (driven by my tube amps) and servo control on the woofers.
The comparison was very telling. With servo control on the woofers the bass was far and away better than uncontrolled drivers. It was tighter, cleaner, puncher and extended lower. However, from 200Hz and up the plate amp sucked compared to the tube amp. The mid-range was blah, and not musical at all using the servo amp. The tube amps opened everything up and was musical. Vocals were lush and real. The speakers became beautiful to listen to.
So the critical area to cross over to servo woofers was 200Hz or lower. Higher up got into the mid-range and caused issues. And you never want to split the mid-range up into dissimilar drivers. That is a bad place for a phase shift too.
And as for this design (the Super Mini), the Neo 10 easily handles ranges down to 200Hz. They give up nothing playing down into those ranges even at really high SPL levels the whole system maintains a super accurate response.
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Danny nice to hear your voice yo put with the face. Great demo and explanation for the system.
Impressive sound.
Thanks
Gary
Thanks, I try to be clear and use correct grammar and diction. I'm fairly well educated and try to sound that way. But I am afraid my Southern voice might suggest otherwise. We tend to speak a little slower down here in Texas too.
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"But I am afraid my Southern voice might suggest otherwise"
Many a Northerner who felt that way about Southerners and
tried horse-trading with them, ended up going home with a
lame mule that was blind in one eye.
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Videos are good, the one thing that will make them look a lot better with very little effort - get more sunlight. Videos will look a lot better if you use sunlight as your primary light source.
And play something with BASS!! LOL.
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Thanks Danny for the video. I have been interested in the NX-octica since it has been out, but you have several interesting speakers that are just as interesting and now these Mini's. Your video sounds nice on computer speakers and I really like the looks of the Mini's on top of the woofer section. Just can't tell how they image and how they would perform with classical music. I hope to hear your products some day. I like the Mini and woofer section being in 2 pieces. I think I need to make it to an audio show in Texas. LSAF Lone Star Audio Fest?
What is the name of the group performing the music and what is the title of the LP or CD?
Hope to see more video from you Danny. Nicely done.
Jeff
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Thanks Danny for the video. I have been interested in the NX-octica since it has been out, but you have several interesting speakers that are just as interesting and now these Mini's. Your video sounds nice on computer speakers and I really like the looks of the Mini's on top of the woofer section. Just can't tell how they image and how they would perform with classical music. I hope to hear your products some day. I like the Mini and woofer section being in 2 pieces. I think I need to make it to an audio show in Texas. LSAF Lone Star Audio Fest?
What is the name of the group performing the music and what is the title of the LP or CD?
Hope to see more video from you Danny. Nicely done.
Jeff
Hope Danny doesn't mind me stepping in here to talk about the sound of the Neo10/Neo3 combo used in this speaker (they are used in my Super 7 speakers too). I'm a classical music fanatic, just check out all my posts in the What Classical Music are you listening to, luv thread, in the Classical Music Circle (which I also am the Facilitator for). IME, the Neo3/Neo10 combo is the best pair of drivers for classical in the world. It's a bold statement but I'll back it up with the very specific things that these drivers excel at over all others, IME.
Tone - There's no point in listening to music if the tone isn't right. Music should sound beautiful and it should sound real. Nothing captures tone like these speakers.
Imaging - If you're listening to a large orchestra, your speakers should be able to scale. And the cellos should stay firmly put on the right, violins left, percussion rear left, double basses rear right. Even when all hell breaks loose, you should be able to keep track of what each instrumental group is doing.
Detail - I mean musical detail here, not clinical analytical sound. Another place where other speakers just can't really match the speed and resolution of the Neo3/Neo10 setup. From the rosin of the bow, to the steel tension of the strings to the resonating wooden body, you hear everything and its always breathtakingly beautiful.
Seamless Integration - This is another area where the Neo3/Neo10 speakers really, really distance themselves from the competition. If you listen to any vocal classical music, you know that soprano voice, in particular, gives the LARGE MAJORITY of speakers fits! When the singer really leans into the notes, almost every speaker sounds like there's microphone overload, or driver breakup. In reality it's that with those other speakers, the mid/tweeter just don't integrate perfectly. And PERFECT integration is what you MUST have. The Neo3/Neo10 drivers DO have perfect integration. Hell, before I got the Super 7s, I didn't even LIKE opera or vocal recitals because it literally hurt my ears when listening to it on other speakers.
Anyway, I've babbled on enough about them. Suffice to say, these speakers are spectacularly good for classical music.
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The No Rez dampens out any resonance of the panel and absorbs some of the acoustic energy and minimizing surface reflection from it.
Danny - Would your other winged speakers benefit from No Res as well? Specifically the wedgies?
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Thanks Danny for the video. I have been interested in the NX-octica since it has been out, but you have several interesting speakers that are just as interesting and now these Mini's. Your video sounds nice on computer speakers and I really like the looks of the Mini's on top of the woofer section. Just can't tell how they image and how they would perform with classical music. I hope to hear your products some day. I like the Mini and woofer section being in 2 pieces. I think I need to make it to an audio show in Texas. LSAF Lone Star Audio Fest?
What is the name of the group performing the music and what is the title of the LP or CD?
Hope to see more video from you Danny. Nicely done.
Jeff
Jeff
The Super Mini's are going to image insanely well. Kept the baffle extremely narow (6.25") with large radius on the verticle edges. Intent was to have them at least equal the Wedgies in this department.
I, like Tyson, am impressed with the imaging of the Super 7's but I can't wait to build out a pair of these.... hopefully inthe next run we cut.
Trade off compared to say the s7's is that you'll lose some sensitivity, but man, that super narrow front profile......
jay
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Danny - Would your other winged speakers benefit from No Res as well? Specifically the wedgies?
Yes
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Thanks Tyson and Jay for your comments. My current room is 20 feet long 14 feet 8 feet high. Jay would you consider that a small room so the Super Mini's will benefit bass wise?
Just a short description of my system. Phono Lenco with Artasan Achatese mod, Kuzma Stogi Reference arm, Cartridge Clear Audio Maestro V2, K&K audio Maxxed out phono stage, SMC TLS line stage with SMC Signature revision, amps are also SMC. What amps would be a great match with the Super Mini's? I have a Stealth Metacarbon IC which I would want to keep, it has XLR connectors so amp inputs I would want XLR type. The SMC mono blocks are great but at 600 watt each and other factors I would want to change amps if I should change speakers.
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You're not going to gain much bass out of these no matter what the size of the room. You'll need some sort of lower section to paly up and meet them around the 200 hz mark. I know right now, Danny has them paired with 3 servo 8's per channel covering from rouighly 200-30 hz then passign off to a set of 3 12's per channel from 30 down. A pair of dual 12's will play up and meet hem if you wanted to start with that.... Danny is also working on an active M165 lower section that lower the crossover point tothe subs.
I wouldn't hesitate to try your curent amps with them. I'm running A Mivera Pure Power (Ice Power AS/2 1200 based) with my Super 7's with great reustls. If you wanted, you could run an inline filter to reduce the amount of low end the Neo 10 is trying to paly.
If you really wanted to try some different, lower powered options.... i know where you pick up a pair of K&K (Kevin built) 6C33C P?P SET transofrmer couo0pled mono's. I have a thread on these in the tube-o-file circle where Kevin actually joins in and talks about this particular pair.
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And as for this design (the Super Mini), the Neo 10 easily handles ranges down to 200Hz. They give up nothing playing down into those ranges even at really high SPL levels the whole system maintains a super accurate response.
When I had the Genesis 7 monitors with it's small 4-5" woofer crossed over the servo subs at 200hz and compared that to the Super Vs, the Gens lacked the impact and body of the Super Vs in the 200 to 700 hz range. That is why I would doubt the neo 10 would do any better as I doubt it will move more air.
That got me thinking of adding a pair of Fostex 4" full rangers I have here to the super mini and crossing it over to the neo 3 the same as the neo 10. You would gain 3 db eff. and move way more air, although give up coherency I suppose. Or add another neo 10 above the neo 3.
Rocket Ronny
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4-5
When I had the Genesis 7 monitors with it's small 4-5" woofer crossed over the servo subs at 200hz and compared that to the Super Vs, the Gens lacked the impact and body of the Super Vs in the 200 to 700 hz range. That is why I would doubt the neo 10 would do any better as I doubt it will move more air.
That got me thinking of adding a pair of Fostex 4" full rangers I have here to the super mini and crossing it over to the neo 3 the same as the neo 10. You would gain 3 db eff. and move way more air, although give up coherency I suppose. Or add another neo 10 above the neo 3.
Rocket Ronny
Or just get the Super 7 kit if you're concerned about that.
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4-5
When I had the Genesis 7 monitors with it's small 4-5" woofer crossed over the servo subs at 200hz and compared that to the Super Vs, the Gens lacked the impact and body of the Super Vs in the 200 to 700 hz range. That is why I would doubt the neo 10 would do any better as I doubt it will move more air.
That got me thinking of adding a pair of Fostex 4" full rangers I have here to the super mini and crossing it over to the neo 3 the same as the neo 10. You would gain 3 db eff. and move way more air, although give up coherency I suppose. Or add another neo 10 above the neo 3.
Rocket Ronny
Ronnie,
These should play SPL levels of 100 to 110db at the seating position pretty easily. And the response will still be flat. 200Hz and up doesn't require a lot of air movement capability.
And the impact that you get from the Super-V in that range isn't because the driver can move a lot of air. That is a high sensitivity driver with a huge dynamic range capability.
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Thanks.
When I play my music, loud, like I normally do and lightly put my finger on the 12" coax P Audio driver, I feel it moves quite a bit. I hardly think that a BG Neo 10 would move nearly as much.
Rocket Ronny
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Thanks.
When I play my music, loud, like I normally do and lightly put my finger on the 12" coax P Audio driver, I feel it moves quite a bit. I hardly think that a BG Neo 10 would move nearly as much.
Rocket Ronny
Yeah, but your 12" coaxial driver is likely not high pass filtered. So it is still reacting to wavelengths below 200Hz. If you put a filter on it so that it is not trying to play the lower wavelengths then it will hardly move.
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Yeah, but your 12" coaxial driver is likely not high pass filtered. So it is still reacting to wavelengths below 200Hz. If you put a filter on it so that it is not trying to play the lower wavelengths then it will hardly move.
Speaking of putting an in-line filter - putting one between your preamp and amp has a very interesting affect, it actually increases dynamics in the midrange, like a LOT. I suspect its because when you filter the bass out of the signal before it gets to your midrange amp, that amp is now able to put ALL it's power into the mids and zero power is wasted on the bass signal at all.
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So with the bottom bass unit are we talking the M165s that sell for $30 or the ones for $109?
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So with the bottom bass unit are we talking the M165s that sell for $30 or the ones for $109?
The standard M165's are indeed only $30 a piece. And they work pretty well as open baffle woofers and can easily play up to ranges above the tweeter crossover point. They are used as the lower range drivers in the NX-Otica and NX-Treme models.
The M165NQ drivers are the purpose built mid-bass drivers for open baffle applications and they are $109 a piece.
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So for just covering from ~40 Hz to 200 Hz to crossover to the Neo10 the standard M165s would work just fine, since the NX-Otica and NX-Treme use them in that capacity? This bottom bass unit seems to be a more economical way of using the Super -mini top section, especially for someone that has a woodshop (no flat pack) and amps and crossover that I could use for this bass unit. So $180 for the drivers plus misc wire and stuff.
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So for just covering from ~40 Hz to 200 Hz to crossover to the Neo10 the standard M165s would work just fine, since the NX-Otica and NX-Treme use them in that capacity? This bottom bass unit seems to be a more economical way of using the Super -mini top section, especially for someone that has a woodshop (no flat pack) and amps and crossover that I could use for this bass unit. So $180 for the drivers plus misc wire and stuff.
Yeah they'll work great but, if you're wanting 40 out of them, you'll want to be in a "smaller" room. say, 12' -13' feet wide. If you go much larger, they are going to roll off earlier.
Also, be sure to brace the cabinet well and I'd recommend using no-rez on any flat areas between braces.
jay
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At what crossover point will a bass unit need to be attached (time aligned ??) to the Super minis? Or is that a completely ignorant question?
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At what crossover point will a bass unit need to be attached (time aligned ??) to the Super minis? Or is that a completely ignorant question?
They would cross to the lower woofers at 200Hz.
A 200Hz wavelength is five and a half feet long. So even if the woofers (side loaded) are 6" back (it wouldn't even be that much really) then that is not very much of a phase rotation. That is only about a 10 degree phase rotation.
I would like to have an amp built with an adjustable high pass and low pass filter, phase control, and gain control. Then you can do anything you want with the lower woofers even roll off the bottom end to blend with servo subs.
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Yeah they'll work great but, if you're wanting 40 out of them, you'll want to be in a "smaller" room. say, 12' -13' feet wide. If you go much larger, they are going to roll off earlier.
Also, be sure to brace the cabinet well and I'd recommend using no-rez on any flat areas between braces.
jay
I will take what I can get. I will be crossing over to a swarm of subs so I am somewhat flexible in that regard. My room is L-shaped. The speakers will go in the short part of the L which is 11'-6" wide. They will be facing into the large part of the room.
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I will take what I can get. I will be crossing over to a swarm of subs so I am somewhat flexible in that regard. My room is L-shaped. The speakers will go in the short part of the L which is 11'-6" wide. They will be facing into the large part of the room.
In my room, right around 12' wide, I was getting down to that 40 hz range with the Otica's on their own.
Nice thing is , if you side load the drivers, you'll likely be able to keep slim 6.25" front profile all the way down :)
jay
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In my room, right around 12' wide, I was getting down to that 40 hz range with the Otica's on their own.
Nice thing is , if you side load the drivers, you'll likely be able to keep slim 6.25" front profile all the way down :)
jay
How wide is the front baffle with them front mounted, like 8.5" or 9"? How do they work side mounted in OB config?
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How wide is the front baffle with them front mounted, like 8.5" or 9"? How do they work side mounted in OB config?
Yes, the Otica's start with an 8.5" wide bafle. Once we cut the 10 degree rabbet on the rear of each side and ad a .5" roundover to the front of each side ( the roundover actually endds at 11.29 mm instead of the full 12.7 due to the 10 degree rabbet/wing joint), yo u end up with 1/8" on either side of the 7.25" driver flange.
If you run 4 M165's straight up starting the lowest with a 4 center and leaving enough room for a .5" rouindover onthe rear of each hole and a .5" brace your 4th driver center will be at 26.5". Add another 4 to the top and then say a 1" top/bottom plate and you're at 32.5" which is getting up there considering the Super Mini tweeter is at 13.5" (roughly).
Originally we'd discussed doing 3 but if you side loaded and staggered them a bit, you'd be able to keep the height down , will just make bracing a bit tricky.
danny has some side loaded 8's that work really well, I'd think the 6.5's will be fine configed like this . Sure danny will chime in on this
jay
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How low will the 3-8’s reach down to?
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Yeah, but your 12" coaxial driver is likely not high pass filtered. So it is still reacting to wavelengths below 200Hz. If you put a filter on it so that it is not trying to play the lower wavelengths then it will hardly move.
I thought the Super V crossover did that? I do have a Behringer crossover I could use but thought not to mess with your design.
Rocket Ronny
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I thought the Super V crossover did that? I do have a Behringer crossover I could use but thought not to mess with your design.
Rocket Ronny
No, the filter in the Super-V has no high pass on the coaxial woofer.
And no, don't put the Behringer in the signal path.
If you want to roll off the lows then I can calculate the value of a single inline cap to use before your power amp that will work nicely.
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How low will the 3-8’s reach down to?
I haven't had a chance to play with the 8" servo drivers yet ( waiting for more stock) but from what danny has explained, I'd say you'd want to limit them to around 30 hz for best results. If you want to drive down into that last 10 hz or so, pass it off to a set of 12's in what ever config suits you (duals, triples etc)
jay
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Any ETA when the Super Mini top and bottom woofer section will be available?
A recent audition of the Magnepan .7 at a fellow ACer’s home has me interested in speakers with better speed/resolution that planar drivers can offer.
Any comments how the Super Mini compares to Maggies?
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Any ETA when the Super Mini top and bottom woofer section will be available?
A recent audition of the Magnepan .7 at a fellow ACer’s home has me interested in speakers with better speed/resolution that planar drivers can offer.
Any comments how the Super Mini compares to Maggies?
I believe Danny has all the parts ready to go. Do you mean "flat paks" ?? Good question??
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Hoping for more baffles to be ready this coming week.
Also been working on a matching base with 4 side mouonted M165's.
jay
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Any idea Jay on what the dimensions of that base would be and a ballpark on the price? Feel free to PM me if you prefer. This looks like a great entry point for me!
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I believe Danny has all the parts ready to go. Do you mean "flat paks" ?? Good question??
In my case, yes, I would need flat packs (top and bottom sections). I’ve never built/assembled a speaker before, so something with all the parts I could just assemble (with good instructions) would be good. I’m thinking this would save a bit of $$$ over a completed speaker?
Btw, my current speakers are Soundfield Audio Monitor 1.
Oh, and I would use my current sub as well (Powersound Audio Triax).
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Oh, and I would use my current sub as well (Powersound Audio Triax).
The bottom section to the super mini is the GR research OB subs. You could build your own base if you wernt going to go with servo subs.
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Any ETA when the Super Mini top and bottom woofer section will be available?
Maybe Jay can post some pics of the renderings that he sent me for the lower end we're working on.
A recent audition of the Magnepan .7 at a fellow ACer’s home has me interested in speakers with better speed/resolution that planar drivers can offer. Any comments how the Super Mini compares to Maggies?
That is a pretty apples and oranges comparison. High sensitivity verses very low sensitivity. Small amps work fine compared to only large amps can be used. Small baffle size compared to large baffle size. Broad room filling sound and large sweet spot area compared to a very small sweet spot. High level of dynamic and detail levels compared to low....
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Maybe Jay can post some pics of the renderings that he sent me for the lower end we're working on.
That is a pretty apples and oranges comparison. High sensitivity verses very low sensitivity. Small amps work fine compared to only large amps can be used. Small baffle size compared to large baffle size. Broad room filling sound and large sweet spot area compared to a very small sweet spot. High level of dynamic and detail levels compared to low....
So do I have this right?
Super Mini:
High sensitivity, small baffle size, broad room filling sound, large sweet spot, high level of dynamic and detail
Maggie:
Low sensitivity, large baffle size, small sweet spot, low(er) level dynamics and detail
I’m particularly interested in your assessment of soundstage/image size, dynamics and detail. The .7 I heard (I posted about it here, post# 42 https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159659.msg1747105#msg1747105 ), sounded great with smaller acoustic assembles and voices, but not as good with a full orchestra going full tilt. How does the Super Mini handle this?
I don’t want to derail this thread, so let me know if you prefer PM or for me to start a new thread to discuss this.
Thanks. :D
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Have managed to keep the height to 27.5" and that is with a 1" base and a .75" top (top is inset into the cabint so no seams on the sides).
I'll post some renderings a bit later today/this eve. Packing boxes
jay
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The bottom section to the super mini is the GR research OB subs. You could build your own base if you wernt going to go with servo subs.
That is an option. There is also a narrower option with M165s in a bass section/stand support. It doesn’t go as low as the 12” OB servo subs, but it is less expensive, narrower, and will get it down to a frequency that those of us that have multiple subs in the room can take over for the lowest bass frequencies.
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That is an option. There is also a narrower option with M165s in a bass section/stand support. It doesn’t go as low as the 12” OB servo subs, but it is less expensive, narrower, and will get it down to a frequency that those of us that have multiple subs in the room can take over for the lowest bass frequencies.
This is my thought as well. I would need something that fills the gap between the Super Mini’s low end (200hz), and where my sub would pick up (about 80hz?).
Interestingly, my Soundfield Audio Monitor 1 has a built in powered 8” woofer that picks up at 200hz (above 200hz is handled by passive KEF coax driver). I wonder if there is a way to use my speaker’s powered bass section with the Super Mini?
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196294)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196295)
(Ugh, can’t get the bottom image right side up. Tried editing in album, but change won’t stick.)
Edit: Thank you to whoever fixed the bottom pic. :thumb:
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:D now these look in budget land. If you just sit them on a double servo base , what will the cost be all in ? :D or is a base being developed ? Thanks. I love the S7's but to big , heavy and $$ ..... :popcorn:
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(Deleted accidental post)
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So do I have this right?
Super Mini:
High sensitivity, small baffle size, broad room filling sound, large sweet spot, high level of dynamic and detail
Maggie:
Low sensitivity, large baffle size, small sweet spot, low(er) level dynamics and detail
Yes.
I’m particularly interested in your assessment of soundstage/image size, dynamics and detail. The .7 I heard (I posted about it here, post# 42 https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159659.msg1747105#msg1747105 ), sounded great with smaller acoustic assembles and voices, but not as good with a full orchestra going full tilt. How does the Super Mini handle this?
The Super Mini has handled everything that I have throw at them really well.
I can't wait for more people to hear them. Come on over...
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Yes.
The Super Mini has handled everything that I have throw at them really well.
I can't wait for more people to hear them. Come on over...
Ha, I wish I lived close enough! I would love to hear them! I’m in SE VA, hence my thread asking if you would be at CAF. :thumb:
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:D now these look in budget land. If you just sit them on a double servo base , what will the cost be all in ?
$1,049 for the complete kit with flat pack, plus shipping.
And you can sit them right on a set of double servo subs.
:D or is a base being developed ? Thanks. I love the S7's but to big , heavy and $$ ..... :popcorn:
We're working on a lower cost, non-servo bass solution, that keeps the same look and front baffle width and will easily play down to the servo subs.
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A fully active version of the Super Mini's is in Southern MD. I had them at CAF2018 for demo. It is the NEO3/NEO10 planar open baffle over the OB 2x12 servo subs.
Just PM me if interested in a listen if it will help.
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:D non-servo Wowwww,,,,,KISS ,, I love it. But I did think the servo bass was the best bass I have ever had. But to not have those amps and for big drivers would be so cool. Keep us posted. I really really need a great speaker at a real world price. This just might be the one set to do such an impossible task. :D :popcorn:
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:D non-servo Wowwww,,,,,KISS ,, I love it. But I did think the servo bass was the best bass I have ever had. But to not have those amps and for big drivers would be so cool. Keep us posted. I really really need a great speaker at a real world price. This just might be the one set to do such an impossible task. :D :popcorn:
No, a non-servo amp powering the lower M-165 woofers
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:D ohhhhh, ok. So you supply the amp you think sounds best and the top is up to us ? A sweet little tube amp maybe ? That sounds great. So each lower section will have an amp or one for both ? Sorry if I came into the thread late,,,,,, it's summer and can't keep up,,,,,ha .. :popcorn:
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A fully active version of the Super Mini's is in Southern MD. I had them at CAF2018 for demo. It is the NEO3/NEO10 planar open baffle over the OB 2x12 servo subs.
Just PM me if interested in a listen if it will help.
Sending you a PM. :D
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Can I assume that the front baffles need to be at least 3 feet from the wall behind?
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I didn’t see this mentioned......
What are the dimensions of the Super Mini and the planned bass section?
Usable space is kind of tight in my room.
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Can I assume that the front baffles need to be at least 3 feet from the wall behind?
Good question. I see in Danny’s videos he has them pulled way out from the wall behind them. Three feet would be the absolute max I could place the front baffle from the wall behind them in my room. Would this severely compromise their performance?
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sorry, didn't get to this yesterday.
Anyway, here's what we've been working on for non-servo lower section.
Ben able to keep the cabinet identical to the Super Mini so the Super Mini can just sit right on top... maybe with a think layer of Sorbathane betwen them .
fully braced cabinet with an overall height ( no super Mini on top) is 27.5" with a 1" base.
Front
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196328)
Rear
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196329)
Transparent from side
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196330)
As with our other cabinets, all bracing located via dado's in wings and baffle. dowels/screws in base for easy alignment and glue up.
Haven't cut any of these yet, playing catch up with other stuff but they are on the list.
And yes, you want them out inthe room. I've heard of some people not quite making the suggested 3' min but idally, you want that. Maybe havem on some sliders so when you're critical listening, you can pull them out ? Have heard of people doing that as well.
jay
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Jay
very cool looking and functional speaker base for the Mini's and other satellite speakers. I am going to assume these have openings for 8 inch drivers.
Gary
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or I may be wrong probably 6.5 drivers. Will they come as a flat pack.
Gary
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Jay
very cool looking and functional speaker base for the Mini's and other satellite speakers. I am going to assume these have openings for 8 inch drivers.
Gary
Hey Gary
No, 4 M165's per cabinet (6.5" woofers). I loved them in my Otica's !
jay Then , ideally, you'd pass them off to a pair of servo sub towers or an existing sub system if you have one.
Flat packs are the paln. Assembled cabs are always an option as well
jay
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A fully active version of the Super Mini's is in Southern MD. I had them at CAF2018 for demo. It is the NEO3/NEO10 planar open baffle over the OB 2x12 servo subs.
Just PM me if interested in a listen if it will help.
Wish I were closer rich, would love to hear them :thumb:
for guys interested in a fully digital version, check out rich's Monolith thread over in the HAL circle
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153244.msg1739673#new
jauy
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:D can you just cut and build this a one piece with the smaller drivers non servo bottoms ?
This seems feasible,, or not ?? :D
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I didn’t see this mentioned......
What are the dimensions of the Super Mini and the planned bass section?
Usable space is kind of tight in my room.
???
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:D the passive 4 driver per side has the same shape and size as top section,,,,, seamless ?? :D :popcorn:
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I didn’t see this mentioned......
What are the dimensions of the Super Mini and the planned bass section?
Usable space is kind of tight in my room.
The Super mini's are set up in my house and I am at the office. So I don't have a pair here to measure I think it was 16" tall and 6.25" wide.
Jay is working on the base and posted something on the height a few posts up.
These will work fine in a small room so long as you can pull them at least three feet out from the front wall.
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The Super mini's are set up in my house and I am at the office. So I don't have a pair here to measure I think it was 16" tall and 6.25" wide.
Jay is working on the base and posted something on the height a few posts up.
These will work fine in a small room so long as you can pull them at least three feet out from the front wall.
Thanks. :)
How about depth of the top and bass unit?
It appears the back is wider than the front. If so, what’s the width at the back?
:)
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:D can you just cut and build this a one piece with the smaller drivers non servo bottoms ?
This seems feasible,, or not ?? :D
I like this idea. :thumb:
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Danny is correct, 16" tall and they start 6.25" wide.... there is a roundover on each vertical edge so the actual face ends up being about 5.25 , just wide enough for the waveguide of the Neo10.
They are indeed wider at the rear, the wings extend rearwards at a 10 degree angle.
The rear of the lower section ends up at approx 11" and sitting atop of a 1" base, the lower section will be 27.5" tall.
jay
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Danny is correct, 16" tall and they start 6.25" wide.... there is a roundover on each vertical edge so the actual face ends up being about 5.25 , just wide enough for the waveguide of the Neo10.
They are indeed wider at the rear, the wings extend rearwards at a 10 degree angle.
The rear of the lower section ends up at approx 11" and sitting atop of a 1" base, the lower section will be 27.5" tall.
jay
Thanks. :)
So we have
43.5 H
6.25 W at front
11 W at back
How about depth?
Thanks again. :)
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Roughly 16" plus a base.... I think I have the base modeled up with a 1.5" over hang front/rar edge
jay
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Roughly 16" plus a base.... I think I have the base modeled up with a 1.5" over hang front/rar edge
jay
Thanks. :D
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I was wondering if it is possible to use a thin metal frame and grill cloth to cover the sides of the Super Mini? Worried about the WAF...
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As an alternative, just wrap the OB planar top in a open weave grill cloth. Adding any frame will affect the radiation pattern.
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I was telling a friend about the Super Mini and he had a good question.
How does the asymmetrical wing design affect of axis (45°) response on both sides? It seems the response on each side would be different? Any off axis graphs we can see?
Thanks. :D
PS - Have an audition schedule with HAL. I’m looking forward to it. :thumb:
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I was wondering if it is possible to use a thin metal frame and grill cloth to cover the sides of the Super Mini? Worried about the WAF...
Don't be concerned about the WAF. I have OB monitors with asymmetrical wings and as long as the baffle color blends well with the exisitng decor, the WAF factor is high.
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I was telling a friend about the Super Mini and he had a good question.
How does the asymmetrical wing design affect of axis (45°) response on both sides? It seems the response on each side would be different? Any off axis graphs we can see?
The off axis response is really good in both directions, and very much the same. I'll post some graphs of them Monday when I get back to the office.
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I was wondering if it is possible to use a thin metal frame and grill cloth to cover the sides of the Super Mini? Worried about the WAF...
I was wondering the same thing.
I don’t care for the exposed driver look.
Would the effect of a thin wire frame be audible?
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You can’t actually see the back of the speakers unless you walk up beside them. I lost count of how many people didn’t realize they were listening to open baffle speakers until I told them.Then they would get up and walk around the speakers to see for themselves.
Mike
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You can’t actually see the back of the speakers unless you walk up beside them. I lost count of how many people didn’t realize they were listening to open baffle speakers until I told them.Then they would get up and walk around the speakers to see for themselves.
Mike
Isn’t it pretty apparent from the short wing side?
I’ll get to see for myself next month.
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I have a potentially heretical question. If it has been asked/answered elsewhere point me to it.
What would the impact of putting a top on this design be? How would it change the sound?
My thought was a top with a 1-2" dowel holding up the corner without the wing. If this has a negligible or non-negative impact on the sound, it would allow for grill cloth (perhaps a sock) to be stretched around the empty space for people who find symmetry aesthetically pleasing.
If it hasn't been tried, perhaps cut apiece of MDF the right shape, a dowel the right length and using weight or clamps run some measurements and listening tests.
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Isn’t it pretty apparent from the short wing side?
I’ll get to see for myself next month.
You would think so but the short wing is on the outside which is closer to the wall. This greatly limits the ability to see the open back from the front of the speakers.
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You can’t actually see the back of the speakers unless you walk up beside them. I lost count of how many people didn’t realize they were listening to open baffle speakers until I told them.Then they would get up and walk around the speakers to see for themselves.
Mike
Unfortunately my speakers are in a complicated open plan living/dining/cooking space, and the rear is quite visible from various angles in this space. (The space is acoustically live but because of several irregularities, no major issues otherwise.)
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You would think so but the short wing is on the outside which is closer to the wall. This greatly limits the ability to see the open back from the front of the speakers.
Ah, I see.
In my room the speaker sides are very visible (especially the right speaker).
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Why not just build a custom grill and attach it to the existing frame using magnets?
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The off axis response is really good in both directions, and very much the same. I'll post some graphs of them Monday when I get back to the office.
Thanks. :D
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Thanks. :D
I guess I had actually posted these once before. I already had them on our server.
0, 10, 20, 30, and 40 degrees off axis to the inside.
(http://www.gr-research.com/measurements/super%20mini%20horizontal%20to%20the%20inside.jpg)
And the same measurements taken going to the outside.
(http://www.gr-research.com/measurements/super%20mini%20horizontal%20to%20the%20outside.jpg)
Looks great both ways.
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Sweet, thanks! :D
I’m looking forward to hearing them at HAL’s next month. :thumb:
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:D jello speaker seekers. Does anyone know if the version with triple 165's powered version is in design stage of ready for rollout ? Danny, I sent you a pm. This speaker seems a mini S7 of sorts. Love the servo bass, but totally not needed at my age unless I won the lotto. Budget, size , weight all factor in. Thanks for the mini. :D
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No 3 M165 version , sending Danny a side loaded 4 M165 base soon. There are pics earlier in thread .
More super Mini baffles / kits this week
jay
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:D hi Jay. Thanks ,, and I forgot the V design you crafted ,, you have 4, 165's OB each side ? Is that right ? And Danny is thinking of adding an amp each side ? This sounds fab.... Be in Kelowna next month. :D
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:D hi Jay. Thanks ,, and I forgot the V design you crafted ,, you have 4, 165's OB each side ? Is that right ? And Danny is thinking of adding an amp each side ? This sounds fab.... Be in Kelowna next month. :D
yes, 4 per channel and they will be active , think Danny has some ideas for an amp for each channel.
Let me know when you're in town, maybe you can pop by for a listen if you like
jay
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:D thanks Jay,, be there on the 22nd next month. Would love to see what your cutting up in your Mad speaker lab,,,,, :D
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A pair of these will be off to Danny next week.
Will grab a couple better pics before boxing
With a raw Super Mini cab on top and beside teh s7 for size comparison
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198004)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198006)
jay
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Even raw, those look very nice.
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Looks really good Jay! :D
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Packing these up today to get down to Danny so took some pics when I fitting up the 2nd cabinet.
As with most of our other kits, bases have contersunk screws in bottom to eliminate the need for really long clamps and dowels on the top side to position the wings and make assembly very easy.Bases were left quite simple but there is room for the builder to be creative if one desired and still use the existing dowel/screw layout.. Or, we can add a roundover to the existing base as I did in this case
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198165)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198166)
Now the side panels can be perectly located onthe base via the insstalled dowels. Each panel has the two driver cutouts with 3/8" roundover on rear side, pre-drilled mounting screw holes, the 4 dados for the braceing as well as a top rebbet for the top of the cabinet.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198169)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198170)
Next comes the baffle. the rear side has 4 dados and the upper rabbet to match the side panels. There are also the 2 verticle 10 degree rabbets to mate up with the front edge of the side panels. Front side has the 2 verticle .5" rouindovers
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198171)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198172)
Time for some braces. Each cabinet will have four of these.All the inner edges have been rounded over to help prevent defraction
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198178)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198175)
The wrap around bracing leaves lots of room fo the M165 drivers.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198179)
Finaly we have the inset cabinet top which glues into the rabbets cut at top of side panels and baffle.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198180)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198181)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198182)
Each pair of cabinets is mirrored so either woofers 1&3 or 2&4 can be placed to the center to keep things symetrical.
jay
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They look great Jay! :D
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How do they sound? It looks almost like it's "semi-OB", instead of full on OB. Do they still interact with the room the same way the H-Frame OB does?
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Hi Jay: (maybe Danny and others would chime in also)
You've done amazing work on this flat pack!
What are it's advantages over a similar design using 3 M165's side mounted? (2 one side & 1 on the other)
What are the advantages over front mounting 3-4 M165's in the same winged design?
I realize the front baffle would be wider and that wouldn't fit the profile of the Super Mini.
I'm assuming these are the M165-16 version.
Also curious as to the amplifier used.
Thanks for any and all responses.
tubav
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How do they sound? It looks almost like it's "semi-OB", instead of full on OB. Do they still interact with the room the same way the H-Frame OB does?
The low wavelengths that they cover make it actually about the same as being front firing in the same wedge.
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Four drivers offer a little more output capability and one more driver sharing the load.
The series parallel grouping also brings it back to an 8 ohm load.
The side mounting isn't much of an issue because of the lower ranges that these are restricted to. So the output should be about the same as if they were front mounted. And the front to back wave cancellation should be about the same.
Any decent plat amp could be used. I am also looking into having some made that will offer some good flexibility.
Hi Jay: (maybe Danny and others would chime in also)
You've done amazing work on this flat pack!
What are it's advantages over a similar design using 3 M165's side mounted? (2 one side & 1 on the other)
What are the advantages over front mounting 3-4 M165's in the same winged design?
I realize the front baffle would be wider and that wouldn't fit the profile of the Super Mini.
I'm assuming these are the M165-16 version.
Also curious as to the amplifier used.
Thanks for any and all responses.
tubav
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Will be teh M165 08's in series / parallel setup as Danny stated ( 2 series pairs, each pair wired to the other in parallel)
jay
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Hi Danny just curious if there will be any updates on new M165 cabinet and listening this week?? Thanks! :popcorn:
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Won't be this week, I haven['t sent the cabinets yet :( they are boxed and ready to go, I just have been a little side tracked
Will try and get the labels done today and have them picked up tomorrow
jay
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Won't be this week, I haven['t sent the cabinets yet :( they are boxed and ready to go, I just have been a little side tracked
Will try and get the labels done today and have them picked up tomorrow
jay
Good work, thank you Sir.
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How do they sound? It looks almost like it's "semi-OB", instead of full on OB. Do they still interact with the room the same way the H-Frame OB does?
Yes, how do they sound? And how low do they go? And what is the projected or ballpark price with drivers and a suitable plate amp?
Very impressive work. Jay is a true craftsman.
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Last post on this thread is Sept. 3. I have an interest in the Super Mini if the bass can be as good as the Super mini's are at what they do without using big separate subs. I really like the 4 M165 per side as stands and extending the bass. Also read somewhere that 3 8s per side have been made. So Danny or Jay or somebody where is bass project at for the Super Mini's?I get the impression the M165s or 8 inch woofers would be self amplified?Is servo being considered? Also I do not see 8 inch woofers on the GR Research web sight. Are these woofers designed by Danny?
Would the three 8 inch drivers extend the bass 4 or 5 hz more than the 4 M165? Would servo extend the bass a bit more? Will flat packs be available for the 4 M165 or 8 inch open baffle cabinets?
I really like the looks of the Super Mini on top of the Bass with 4 M165 or the 3 8 inch open baffle bass. Hope that will be enough for a full range system. It is clean, uncluttered looking and simple.
I hope my questions are clear. Not a very good at communicateing. The Super Mini's have my attention it's just extending the bass, where is that at? I intend to attend LSAF in June to hear some GR Research gear. That will be most helpfull. Tyson has been helpfull with his comments on the threads and on the phone.
Thank you
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Seems like the 4x165 [mid-bass] stands/amps would also perfectly complement Wedgies, would they not? Of course, you would still need servos for truly full range playback, but seems like these paired with either Super-Minis or Wedgies would both add some mid-bass dynamics/slam and possibly clean up the truly low-bass regions by relieving the Servos of some mid-bass work. In addition it would allow Super-Minis or Wedgies to use these as stands and allow H-frame Servos more placement options, obviously.
Any rough ETA for these yet? Thanks.
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Yes, flat packs will be available for the 4 x M165's. Danny has a pack , he's just been busy and hasn't had time to set it up.
Servo 8's are not in stock right now, I think Danny is working on a new order / run of them.
jay
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Thanks Jay.
Would the flat pack be the same for the 8s, the only difference being 3 holes for 8 inch woofers?
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Any chance the super minis would ever have an active model?
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Are you talking about a fully active version of the Super Mini's for both the planars and servo subs?
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Hal just the super minis.
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It has already been done.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153244.0
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Any one has a pair of Super Minis in the SF Bay Area? Would love to audition them.
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We do, in Cloverdale. Come over and listen
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We do, in Cloverdale. Come over and listen
Thanks for the offer! Cloverdale is a good 2+ hours drive from Santa Clara. Will have to try to organize a day trip up there. Maybe after you are done with the S7 monitors!
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That could be a while.
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That could be a while.
Has anyone A/B compared the S7 monitor vs the Super Mini?
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Has anyone A/B compared the S7 monitor vs the Super Mini?
What's the S7 monitor?
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What's the S7 monitor?
The top part of the Super 7.
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The top part of the Super 7.
I own the Super 7 and got to extensively demo the Super Mini a couple weeks ago. See the writeup here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=167136.0
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I own the Super 7 and got to extensively demo the Super Mini a couple weeks ago. See the writeup here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=167136.0
I did and thanks as all your reviews are very insightful!
Your review and others are what really piqued my interests in the "Super" design. Open baffle planar + open baffle servo sub. I have only read about it but never listened to one.
I also started going through the whole circle and catching up on other designs. And that's what brought me to the S7 thread and discovered the existence of the S7 monitor. Seems like it will sound better than the super mini but would be cost double mainly due to the cost of the Neo10. Anyway, would love to be able to A/B compare them.
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I did and thanks as all your reviews are very insightful!
Your review and others are what really piqued my interests in the "Super" design. Open baffle planar + open baffle servo sub. I have only read about it but never listened to one.
I also started going through the whole circle and catching up on other designs. And that's what brought me to the S7 thread and discovered the existence of the S7 monitor. Seems like it will sound better than the super mini but would be cost double mainly due to the cost of the Neo10. Anyway, would love to be able to A/B compare them.
You do understand that the planar mid/tweeter on the Super Mini and the top part of the Super 7 both only go down to 200hz? Neither of them can be used without a bass section.
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You do understand that the planar mid/tweeter on the Super Mini and the top part of the Super 7 both only go down to 200hz? Neither of them can be used without a bass section.
Yes. I currently have a pair of JBL 15" woofer in large cabinets that I initially plan to pair them with. but if they end up too slow, then I will have to get the OB servo subs.
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Yes. I currently have a pair of JBL 15" woofer in large cabinets that I initially plan to pair them with. but if they end up too slow, then I will have to get the OB servo subs.
Other subs will work in a pinch but they won't blend properly. That's what I did for six months while I saved up for the subs when I got my first OB monitor kit. You'll want the OB servo subs.
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Other subs will work in a pinch but they won't blend properly. That's what I did for six months while I saved up for the subs when I got my first OB monitor kit. You'll want the OB servo subs.
that's what I am afraid of. :lol: :lol:
I spent a fair amount of time and energy designing and building the cabinets. so I want to enjoy them longer before moving on. maybe a 6 months+ after if I get the S7 monitor / super mini.
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Yes. I currently have a pair of JBL 15" woofer in large cabinets that I initially plan to pair them with. but if they end up too slow, then I will have to get the OB servo subs.
Ah gotcha. I rather like the JBL woofers, a friend of mine uses a 12" pair in a sealed box with a ribbon tweeter in a waveguide from Beyma - really excellent sound.
I'd say try it! It if works out, then great. If not, then the OB subs will definitely work.
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Yes, flat packs will be available for the 4 x M165's. Danny has a pack , he's just been busy and hasn't had time to set it up.
Servo 8's are not in stock right now, I think Danny is working on a new order / run of them.
jay
Hi Jay,
Very cool cabinet design.
What is the intended/anticipated frequency range for the 4 - M165's in this cabinet ?
TIA
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Hi Jay,
Very cool cabinet design.
What is the intended/anticipated frequency range for the 4 - M165's in this cabinet ?
TIA
200hz and down to the 70-40ish range depending on room. Very similar to the NX-Otica 4 lower M165/M165X's but in a slimmer cabinet to better match Super Mini/Wedgie cabinets
jay
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Just swapped em' out in place of Wedgies.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203330)
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I own the Super 7 and got to extensively demo the Super Mini a couple weeks ago. See the writeup here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=167136.0
Did a bunch of reading and catching up...
So the planar lineup for the top half of the speaker is:
Super Mini - low $1k
... a small 15% jump:
Super 7 Monitor - almost $3k
.... a HUGE jump:
Line Force - $10k+
I wonder if there can be something in between the S7 Monitor and Line Force. A shorter line array w/ 4 Neo10 + 8 Neo3, vertically side-by-side like the Line Force, but in a short baffle. .... at around mid $4k? Danny? :green:
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200hz and down to the 70-40ish range depending on room. Very similar to the NX-Otica 4 lower M165/M165X's but in a slimmer cabinet to better match Super Mini/Wedgie cabinets
jay
Jay
When will the flat-packs for the 4x165 bases be available? Need some for my about to be complete Wedgies.
Thanks
-Scott
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The Super Mini's look good even without paint to me.
Here is the pair of DSP active crossover versions Jay and I did for CAF2018:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203333)
And for AXPONA2019:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203334)
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The Super Mini's look good even without paint to me.
Here is the pair of DSP active crossover versions Jay and I did for CAF2018:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203333)
And for AXPONA2019:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203334)
Let's hope the next show is even better buddy :thumb:
Scott, Danny has a pair , as soon as he's got time he'll build them up and then get some measurements.. wanna make sure we've got them right before sending any out.
jay
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Are the plans for the Super Mini available? I managed to score 2 pairs of Neo10's and I am thinking of building something similar but with 2x Neo10 on each side in MTM config. Like Super Mini on steriods. :weights: I'd like to know the dimensions of the front and side and the angle for the side wing.
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Im pretty sure using them in a mtm configeration will cause vertical or horizontal dispersion problems. Hit up danny he will tell you. Gr research. I have the super minis and beside the super 7 or line force line array there are the best use of neo 10 neo 3.
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The wave guide around the neo 3 almost has to be cut with cnc router. The neo 10 mid not so much it could be routered with hand router and proper bevel bit.
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I believe I asked Danny about a neo 10, vertical, D’apolito years ago and I thought he said it would have comb filtering issues. I would think he would have gone that way for the mini for the advantages it offers if it would work, but you don’t see that. You do see something similar with the Serenity 7 though.
Rocket Ronny
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It could also be a cost issue to have just one Neo10/3. As economics is always a concern in engineering.
I will consider trying both MTM and TMM too.
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The super doest have the comb filtering problems cause its as wide as it is tall with the multiple neo 10s. So acts more as a point source. If you do try mtm you might try blocking the 2 outside rows so it will act more like a line source. You can try the blocking off random holes on the neo 10 to get rid of some comb filtering. Theres a few post on DIY audio.
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Super 7 that is.
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Unless you're going to bi-amp, I think you're going to run into an impedence mismatch.
The wing is 10 degrees
And, las mentioned, the waveguide is tricky... I bet we did 4 or 5 different designs with multiple radius's on each to get it right for the new Super 7 and Super Mini
jay
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An MTM on its side would cause some cancellation patterns in the horizontal off axis from the Neo 10's cancelling each other out, and the Neo 3 wouldn't be able to play down low enough to fill the gap (around 1kHz).
It would also cause an impedance mis-match.
And then where would you put the side wing to control front to back wave separation? You can't put on that is equal on each side or it could cause a cavity resonance issue.
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An MTM on its side would cause some cancellation patterns in the horizontal off axis from the Neo 10's cancelling each other out, and the Neo 3 wouldn't be able to play down low enough to fill the gap (around 1kHz).
It would also cause an impedance mis-match.
And then where would you put the side wing to control front to back wave separation? You can't put on that is equal on each side or it could cause a cavity resonance issue.
apologies as I wasn't clear. I meant, to have one Neo10, vertically, above and below a Neo3. The typical MTM arrangement. It will be active DSP crossover and biamped (well, triamped with whatever woofer they will get paired with).
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apologies as I wasn't clear. I meant, to have one Neo10, vertically, above and below a Neo3. The typical MTM arrangement. It will be active DSP crossover and biamped (well, triamped with whatever woofer they will get paired with).
If I ever get the Neo 10 issues ironed out then I'll try and have some 16 ohm diaphragm versions made so that I can passively build that version and keep a 6 to 8 ohm load.
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The Super mini's are set up in my house and I am at the office. So I don't have a pair here to measure I think it was 16" tall and 6.25" wide.
Jay is working on the base and posted something on the height a few posts up.
These will work fine in a small room so long as you can pull them at least three feet out from the front wall.
Is that 3 feet starts from the front baffle to the front wall? What about the side wall?
Danny, what is big sound difference between the Super Mini and NX-OTICA MTM monitor?
Also do you have any plan to add a woofer to Super Mini ad 3-way to make a mini tower without using sub?
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Not so critical. Were 6' to the front and 2'7" to side wall
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Is that 3 feet starts from the front baffle to the front wall? What about the side wall?
Three feet from the baffle to the wall, but more is always better.
Danny, what is big sound difference between the Super Mini and NX-OTICA MTM monitor?
The Super Mini is not available, is a little faster and more articulate.
The NX-Otica MTM is available, plays down lower, has more body and weight.
And they sound more alike than different.
Also do you have any plan to add a woofer to Super Mini ad 3-way to make a mini tower without using sub?
Yes, but it all hinges on getting more Neo 10's made.
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Yes, but it all hinges on getting more Neo 10's made.
Any updates on that?
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Three feet from the baffle to the wall, but more is always better.
The Super Mini is not available, is a little faster and more articulate.
The NX-Otica MTM is available, plays down lower, has more body and weight.
And they sound more alike than different.
Yes, but it all hinges on getting more Neo 10's made.
Danny - Please
1 - Can you give an idea on potential cost of the super mini with a bass stand like you have in your videos? Would this still benefit from triple OB subs as well?
2- Can you compare the super mini to the NX-octica....should I wait for the super mini or not?
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Danny - Please
1 - Can you give an idea on potential cost of the super mini with a bass stand like you have in your videos? Would this still benefit from triple OB subs as well?
2- Can you compare the super mini to the NX-octica....should I wait for the super mini or not?
Guys, the models using the Neo 10's are currently not available.
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someone posted an ad in diyaudio for some "new" Neo10, he even attached the photo and measurements. Any ideas what they are? Is that what you are working on Danny?
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-and-exotics/349609-revised-neo10-planar.html
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Guys, the models using the Neo 10's are currently not available.
Danny, I know this but I am trying to decide to wait or not. I appreciate your input.
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I kind of depends on what you value the most in the sound you like to hear, but I think Tyson, Danny and others who have heard both would say to go with the NX-Oticas and don't look back. What is consistently said is that the NX-Otica Tower is richer, has more weight, in the lower mid-bass area than both the MTM version of the NX-Otica and the Super Mini. This is with all three having servo subs to cover the bottom end. Now when Danny comes up with a solution for the new bass module for the Super Mini, that perception might change. Honestly, hearing how much Ron and his brother loved the NX-Tremes (even in some ways over the Line Force!), I think you are very safe in going with the NX-Otica Tower as it has very good DNA. If you can afford it, and have the room, go for the NX-Tremes.
Gary
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I kind of depends on what you value the most in the sound you like to hear, but I think Tyson, Danny and others who have heard both would say to go with the NX-Oticas and don't look back. What is consistently said is that the NX-Otica Tower is richer, has more weight, in the lower mid-bass area than both the MTM version of the NX-Otica and the Super Mini. This is with all three having servo subs to cover the bottom end. Now when Danny comes up with a solution for the new bass module for the Super Mini, that perception might change. Honestly, hearing how much Ron and his brother loved the NX-Tremes (even in some ways over the Line Force!), I think you are very safe in going with the NX-Otica Tower as it has very good DNA. If you can afford it, and have the room, go for the NX-Tremes.
Gary
Thanks for the follow up. I guess I now know what I'm building 😎
The money isn't the problem I would happy build the extremes but man my room is not tall enough 😭
Short 7 foot wall basement is unfortunate. I have the room filled with diffusion and bass absorption and sounds amazing but darn the height!
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Thanks for the follow up. I guess I now know what I'm building 😎
The money isn't the problem I would happy build the extremes but man my room is not tall enough 😭
Short 7 foot wall basement is unfortunate. I have the room filled with diffusion and bass absorption and sounds amazing but darn the height!
The NX-Ottica towers with servo subs is going to sound better than the Super Mini anyway. That's a killer combo.
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Thanks for the follow up. I guess I now know what I'm building 😎
The money isn't the problem I would happy build the extremes but man my room is not tall enough 😭
Short 7 foot wall basement is unfortunate. I have the room filled with diffusion and bass absorption and sounds amazing but darn the height!
I'm in the same situation...finished basement with low ceiling. Plus, the steps down turn right into my left speaker placement. Having a 7' speaker right there, two feet from the landing, would look really weird. My next house is going to have a 9' basement pour!
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The NX-Ottica towers with servo subs is going to sound better than the Super Mini anyway. That's a killer combo.
Thanks for the comment I appreciate it. Going to build it with triple servo subs here in about a month! My front end is top end so I'm really excited what these will do. Will be replacing a very nice jbl synthesis and velodyne dd15 sub. Now I will have a backup system 😁
Do you think it's worth the copper cap upgrades for the oticas? They are not offered as add ons on his site but I figured I would call and have a package with them put together for me.
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If you have a top flight front end system, then the copper cap upgrade is absolutely worth it.
Re: the JBL's, I'll have to warn you that the NX-Ottica is going to present sound in a way that is VERY different. The Synthesis is really punchy and pushes sound toward you, while the NX-Ottica is going to have a lot more going on behind the speakers with a super deep soundstage.
Have you heard really good OB speakers before? If so, then you know what to expect.
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Yes, but it all hinges on getting more Neo 10's made.
Danny is there any truth to a new and improved BG Neo10 as this thread suggests? https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-and-exotics/349609-revised-neo10-planar.html#post6084907
Are you still open to sourcing from BG?
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Thanks for the comment I appreciate it. Going to build it with triple servo subs here in about a month! My front end is top end so I'm really excited what these will do. Will be replacing a very nice jbl synthesis and velodyne dd15 sub. Now I will have a backup system 😁
Do you think it's worth the copper cap upgrades for the oticas? They are not offered as add ons on his site but I figured I would call and have a package with them put together for me.
Yes to the copper caps. I recenlty swapped out the Soniccap high pass cap/ Miflex bypass cap with one of the new Copper caps bypassed with the same Miflex bypass caps on my Super 7's. Took a while to come around but big step up in clarit and resolution . .
If you are going to go that far, I'd look at upgrading the wire as well
jay
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Yes to the copper caps. I recenlty swapped out the Soniccap high pass cap/ Miflex bypass cap with one of the new Copper caps bypassed with the same Miflex bypass caps on my Super 7's. Took a while to come around but big step up in clarit and resolution . .
If you are going to go that far, I'd look at upgrading the wire as well
jay
Thanks Jay, I was already going to be using some 7N occ wire :)
How long did burn in take for your copper caps?
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I'd give them a good 300-400 hrs, they may even not be totally stable at that point but changes are subtle after that point. The changes early are kind of wierd, very noticable IMHO.
You could hear the potential inthem right away they were pretty grainy
jay
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Thanks Danny for the reply. Do you have plan to create a center speaker? If not, what are some of features I should be looking for to a matching center speaker?
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Thanks Danny for the reply. Do you have plan to create a center speaker? If not, what are some of features I should be looking for to a matching center speaker?
Right now I am just trying to solve the driver availability issues to be able to re-release what I have already designed.
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Any progress on the Super Mini/Wedgie 4x165 bases/flatpacks?
Thanks.
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Any progress on the Super Mini/Wedgie 4x165 bases/flatpacks?
Thanks.
I have a pair her that Jay cut, that I need to assemble and test, but have been too snowed under to touch them.