[andycsb]

Hello. Seeking recommendations for analogue sounding dacs below $3.5k new or used. Full bodied with smooth/rounded top end. 

Thanks 

[HAL]

Try a Topping E70 Velvet DAC with single ended and balanced outputs.  Uses the new flagship AKM AK4499 DAC with excellent sound quality.  The best sound quality is with the balanced XLR outputs.

[mresseguie]

Take a look at the following ideas:

Nuprime makes a few different DACs: https://nuprimeaudio.com/product-category/dac-hpamp/
I noticed a Nuprime Evolution DAC ad on US Audiomart for $2600 just last week.

Holo Audio makes nice DACs. Take a look at the Holo Spring3 DAC. https://www.kitsunehifi.com/product/spring-3-dac/
I own the Spring3 KTE w/volume control.


There are several Chinese made DACs that seem to be the flavor of the month with reviewers, but I haven't heard them.

Enjoy your research. Borrow DACs to demo in your system if possible.

[Tyson]

Smoothest, most analog DAC's I've heard in that price range are the Holo Spring (if you want an solid state DAC) and the iFi iDSD Pro (if you want a tubed DAC).

[GeorgeAb]

PS Audio Directstream DAC MK1 used for around $2K, then modify with the APS 80% nickel output transformers $650. There have been direct comparison between the DS MK1 modded DAC and the Holo Spring and the DS MK2. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/modding-the-ps-audio-directstream-dac-mk1-and-mk2

[artur9]

I listen mostly to acoustic music (classical, jazz, etc) and to my ears the best sounding DACs I've owned have been the Gungnir MB and the one in my Linn Akurate DS.

[GeneS]

I heard a Border Patrol DAC SE-i that I thought sounded the way you are describing. It was paired with an Innuos streamer and Border Patrol tube amp, so it’s a little hard to say how much of what I heard was the DAC, but I thought the combination sounded amazing.

[jjss49]

i prefer the mhdt r2r tubed output dacs for the desired presentation as described by the op

having grannyring mod the output caps etc etc makes them even better

i tried a border patrol some time back (in the covid period) and found the sound round and pleasing but lacking drive and detail in comparison to a number of mhdt dacs i have tried/owned (stockholm 2, orchid, istanbul), they have the same overall smooth and musical presentation but have a lot more insight and inner detail, and superior imaging

furthermore, one can roll tubes (the single dual triode tube in the output buffer stage) to further shape the sound, which is a lot fun

[mresseguie]

i prefer the mhdt r2r tubed output dacs for the desired presentation as described by the op

having grannyring mod the output caps etc etc makes them even better

i tried a border patrol some time back (in the covid period) and found the sound round and pleasing but lacking drive and detail in comparison to a number of mhdt dacs i have tried/owned (stockholm 2, orchid, istanbul), they have the same overall smooth and musical presentation but have a lot more insight and inner detail, and superior imaging

furthermore, one can roll tubes (the single dual triode tube in the output buffer stage) to further shape the sound, which is a lot fun

That reminds me that I have wanted to try an MHDT Orchid for a while, but other purchases got in the way. [Thanks for jogging my faulty memory!]

jjss49, Does grannyring still mod these? [I know. I should ask him directly.  ]

Michael

[Escott1377]

I had this 1 teed up on my plate: https://10audio.com/audio-gd_r7-mk2/.

Underwood Hifi is the distributor and carries the service warranty for the first 2 years in the US.

Unfortunately, May required a new HW heater and a new dishwasher.

So, my life as a country western song is going to delay this purchase…

[jjss49]

That reminds me that I have wanted to try an MHDT Orchid for a while, but other purchases got in the way. [Thanks for jogging my faulty memory!]

jjss49, Does grannyring still mod these? [I know. I should ask him directly.  ]

Michael

bill is certainly able to , just ask him, if he has the time and willingness to do another one

i would certainly get a stock orchid or stockholm listen first, they are very very good and the tube rolling allows for a good degree of shaping the sound, especially with the handy adapters to run 6dj8 or 6sn7 types

[ric]

Another vote for Border Patrol, but I am biased since I own, use and enjoy the sound. But, since you have much more money to spend, I am sure there are more alternatives. If you like the R2R ladder dac sound, which supposedly is more analog sounding, then you probably can't go too wrong. good luck!

[rollo]

  For that money new Border Patrol.  Used Aqua La Scala is the only one IMHO that will be better. Both tubed.


charles

[garyalex]

I have the Border Patrol DAC as well.  I've been using it for years.  Motivated by curiosity I did briefly try the Denafrips Pontus 2.  I liked it but after about a month sold it and returned to the Border Patrol.

[andycsb]

A big  :)thank you to everyone. Really appreciate all the input and help.

Border patrol seems to come up a lot. If I remember correctly from a few years back … the MHDT orchid and Stockholm were really well regarded and known for sounding analog. Are they still competitive?

@garyalex … I’ve shortlisted the denafrips Pontus 2 too. May I ask what they did and didn’t do well against the border patrols. Can the Pontus 2 be considered organic, smooth and rounded at the top, etc etc?

Thanks again

[jandrews]

For the past year and a half I've been toggling between either a Denafrips Ares II or a Border Patrol SE-i Dac.
I've enjoyed getting to know each and there are times where the differences are small but other times where they really have different presentations.
I've also had a Denafrips Iris DDC in front of the dacs.  My streamer is an Ifi Zen Stream with a LPS....for now.
Last week I sold off both the Iris and the Ares II.  I kept the Border Patrol.  Currently I'm using the Border Patrol dac via SPDIF coax (Triode Wire Labs) from the Ifi streamer.
After updating the new firmware on the Ares II last month, the unit had a much improved stereo image and detail.   I was impressed.
That said, it didn't fit into my long term plans so I moved it on.  I'm picking up an Innuos Pulse mini streamer in the coming weeks and will see how it plays with the Border Patrol.
The Border Patrol dac is very natural and pleasing ...although I do agree with @jjss49 that it can sometime lack drive and or detail.  I've read some specs on a previous model (the SE), that it has an output voltage of less than 2V and a relatively high output impedance so synergy with the next stage becomes somewhat important.
I recently replaced the stock Tungsram EZ80 rectifier tube in the dac with a made-in-France Amperex Bugle Boy EZ80 and was surprised with a subtle improvement.
I think if you just want to forget about the dac in your chain and listen to music, the Border Patrol is an excellent choice.
I'm not one of those people and am interested in trying out another r2r dac that is capable of some more resolution after I get the Innuos streamer.
I'm thinking of trying out an MHDT tubed dac next. ...probably the more budget option..I think that's the Istanbul.

Just for fun this morning I pulled out my 30 year old California Audio Labs Sigma II dac with a newish Gold Lion 12ax7 in it.  Been streaming downsampled (16/44.1) music from Qobuz today through it and it's been great.  Very nice weight.

[jjss49]

in my direct experience (i owned these dacs and played them at length in my system)...

mhdt orchid > dena ares 2 > border patrol

the gap widens with an upgraded tube in the orchid (to a we 2c51, or using a tube socket adapter, a nice old stock 6dj8)... just more insight into the music (superior microdynamics and treble air), better rhythm and drive than the ares or border patrol, with the same overall musical, smooth flowing full bodied presentation

if one is enamored with the sound and ergonomics of an ares 2, then i would suggest moving up to a pontus, if budget allows, it is significant step up sonically ime

no doubt the border patrol has a legion of fans, i just feel that those who love it either a) come from an 'older school' analog sound context liking woolier mids, somewhat fattened midbass and rolled off highs, or, b) have systems with an inherent unwanted brightness/sizzle factor, which the bp certainly will take the edge off of nicely

anyone with a fairly resolving system should try each and decide which flavor best suits their fancy

[WGH]

The Border Patrol dac is very natural and pleasing ...although I do agree with @jjss49 that it can sometime lack drive and or detail.

no doubt the border patrol has a legion of fans, i just feel that those who love it either a) come from an 'older school' analog sound context liking woolier mids, somewhat fattened midbass and rolled off highs, or, b) have systems with an inherent unwanted brightness/sizzle factor, which the bp certainly will take the edge off of nicely

In August 2020, Ted Smith, digital guru and lead designer of the PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DACs, talked about the NOS Philips TDA 1543 chip used in the Border Patrol DAC. His comment reminded me of my first DAC, a Scott Nixon Tube DAC I bought used in 2006 that also used the Philips TDA 1543 chip. The Scott Nixon Tube DAC was a NOS design with no digital filter. The sound was pleasant but eventually I became bored because the music just laid there, there was no PRaT, and now I know why. The Van Alstine Insight I bought in 2008 was livelier but still rough around the edges compared to modern DACs. I now listen to a HoloAudio May KTE which has the best of both worlds - a true R2R ladder DAC that uses a lot of tiny computer trimmed resisters and the ability to play any resolution of hi-res PCM or DSD recordings so I'm not limited to 24bit/96 kHz. Many independent studios are now selling master tape quality (not upsampled) hi-res digital recordings that I would miss out on hearing if I still used DAC with the 38 year old Philips TDA 1543 chip.

I bought a used Scott Nixon Tube DAC in 2006, back then early CDs sounded raspy so a little roll off was a good thing.

Ted Smith wrote:

“It’s [Philips TDA 1543 DAC] a very simple chip. For people who want NOS or R-2R style DACs it’s great. Also most people don’t seem to read the datasheet, the chip requires an opamp to meet its specs (which aren’t great), but many simply use resistors on its outputs which adds a lot of 2nd harmonic distortion and restricts the dynamic range.

"If your favorite music doesn’t have a lot of high frequencies and it doesn’t get too loud, the chip works well.

"Without an output filter the timing and waveshape of impulses is lost and PRaT will suffer, but if the original recording is already rolled off this won’t be a problem.
I suspect most people that really enjoy orchestral or, say, grunge [or rock] would be disappointed, but jazz trios, women’s solo voice, etc. should sound fine.”

[viggen]

I loved my scott nixon.  it's still in my avatar.  I got the external PSU and slightly modded the dac portion.  After the mods and the PSU, the background is inky black, details are airy blabla.

I paired it with a Parasound CBD2000 belt drive cd player.  It was my poor man's NOS belt drive transport digital front end. 

That being said, I can't compare it to what I've owned later as the PSU fell apart during a move years ago... but ime Sonnet Morpheus > Ares 2 > MHDT Orchid > Pontus 2

Oh, I briefly owned a Border Patrol SE-i.  I was surprised that it sounded very close to a Topping D90 at the time when I was doing a comparison.  I returned the Border Patrol because they were too close.  After I returned it, I realized I did a faulty comparison as I fed both DACs from a Singxer SU-6.  And, the SU-6 will make any dac sound like a SU-6.

[garyalex]

A big  :)thank you to everyone. Really appreciate all the input and help.

Border patrol seems to come up a lot. If I remember correctly from a few years back … the MHDT orchid and Stockholm were really well regarded and known for sounding analog. Are they still competitive?

@garyalex … I’ve shortlisted the denafrips Pontus 2 too. May I ask what they did and didn’t do well against the border patrols. Can the Pontus 2 be considered organic, smooth and rounded at the top, etc etc?

Thanks again

Compared to the Border Patrol DAC SE-i I thought that the Pontus 2 also sounded organic, smooth, etc.  I thought bass was better defined and that detail was improved.  However, I found that when listening to music with the Border Patrol I found myself much more engaged than with the Pontus 2.  For me there's something special about listening with the BP.  I'm not listening to a DAC.  I'm just listening to music, very often for hours at a time.  That was not the case with the Pontus.  It wasn't fatigue so much as disinterest after a while.  I think that had I never owned the Border Patrol DAC I might have been satisfied with the Pontus 2.  It really is a good DAC.  It's just that the Border Patrol is a better fit for me.