Ribbon Replacement on RM30

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tbrooke

Ribbon Replacement on RM30
« on: 2 Dec 2023, 02:03 pm »

I have been measuring my RM30s and I have noticed a dropoff above 3Kz which I attribute to the Tweeter. I am still adjusting the Rheostat and I will experiment with removing the Wave Guides But I know that the tweeters are a problem

I have read items on this thread about replacing the ribbon and Cantum Aurus has a guide but I have tried about 5 or 6 times to replace them and the ribbons are still off center and messed up within the slot.

Has anybody actually done this and preserved the corrugations on the ribbons and kept it precisely centered?

Do they have to be perfect?

Is there a way to measure if there is any distortion from ribbon mis-alignement?

Any tips?

Obviously you can't use any metal tools because of the magnets - I saw someone mention scotch taping one end to help line it up - I tired it didn't help

Or I can give up and just buy a new pair

HAL

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Re: Ribbon Replacement on RM30
« Reply #1 on: 2 Dec 2023, 02:18 pm »
If you are having problems with the ribbon installation, you might contact Parts-Express or other speaker repair service.  P-E sells the ribbons and can do the installation.  They also do cone speaker recone and surround replacements.

Just a thought.

GeorgeAb

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Re: Ribbon Replacement on RM30
« Reply #2 on: 3 Dec 2023, 01:09 am »
Yes, I have done it several times. I wrote a supplemental guide and posted on this forum here: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=179843.0

I have never been too caught up in are they actually in the exact middle. As long as they are not touching the sides. To my ears and Room EQ Wizard (REW) measurments it has not made any difference WRT exact center. Yes, I preserved the corrugations; ribbons will be properly tensioned if the first crease goes to the edge of the holding block.

I mentioned in the guide poking a hole in the ribbon with your toothpick once positioned. The idea here is as you tighten the screw down it only pulls down on the support block instead of grabbing the ribbon and moving as you tighten the screw.

« Last Edit: 3 Dec 2023, 02:20 am by GeorgeAb »

Rocket

Re: Ribbon Replacement on RM30
« Reply #3 on: 3 Dec 2023, 02:17 am »
Hi,

A great right up. I've replaced a reasonable amount of ribbons for raven tweeters that I once had. I've never had a problem with aurum cantis which were used in my salk sound ht3's.  I always used Vaseline on the tweeter to hold the ribbons in place. Scotch tape would a solution as well.

To be honest as long as the ribbon is not broken they should be working perfectly. it shouldn't matter that the ribbon is off centre is not stretched.

Good luck.

Cheers Rod

GeorgeAb

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Re: Ribbon Replacement on RM30
« Reply #4 on: 3 Dec 2023, 06:34 am »

To be honest as long as the ribbon is not broken they should be working perfectly.

This is my experience, if you have a bad ribbon you will know it as it will be ripped to shreds.

If you not getting output from the tweeter and the ribbon is intact the most likely culprit is the L pad. The circuit is really simple, signal goes through capacitor and then to the L pad and inductor to ground. Through the L pad to the tweeter. The inductor and capacitor are going to be fine... 100%. The L pad is the weak link. When you get your ribbon installed, you are likely not going to have any output. If you jumper the two green wires going to the L pad, you will bypass the L pad. If you then get output from the tweeter you know the L pad is open and requires replacement. Attached are pictures of the green wires on L pad (blue wire is return) on an external crossover and in a RM-30. You will not fry your tweeter by temporarily jumpering past the L pad.








tbrooke

Re: Ribbon Replacement on RM30
« Reply #5 on: 5 Dec 2023, 01:59 pm »
Thank You for the tips the toothpick idea helped they aren't perfect but pretty good. I have maxed out the Lpad and that really helps. I might try the rewiring.

I have been skeptical about the Lpad and I appreciate the idea of eliminating them -- I wonder if there is a way of determining the right setting and then replacing them with a resistor of the appropriate value

GeorgeAb

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Re: Ribbon Replacement on RM30
« Reply #6 on: 9 Dec 2023, 02:01 am »
Congrats on your success of installing the ribbons. For steady hands, definitely a one cup and not a two cups of coffee job.  If you maxed out the L pad and it helped (you are getting output from tweeter) then it “sounds” (pun intended) like everything is working as it should. The idea of jumpering around the L pad was just a troubleshooting tip to determine if the L pad was open. If you can hear output from the tweeter when maxed out the L pad is not open. 

When the pot is maxed out you have effectively jumpered past the L pad as the resistance is 0 ohms. I forgot how the L pad worked so I removed my external RM-40 xo and disconnected the L pad leads and measured. Putting it here so I can refer to in the future.
The input is coming on pin 3 and the output to the driver is pin 2. When in the extreme low position the resistance between pins 2 and 3 is 8 ohms. When in the mid position 4 ohms, and extreme high position 0 ohms.  When in recommended start position of 1 o’clock the resistance is 3.2 ohms. So with our 6 ohm driver in the 0 position the voltage across the driver would be 42% (6/(6+8)) of input voltage, mid position 60% (6/(6+4) of voltage will be across driver, and full throttle 100% of input voltage will be across the driver. 1 o’clock position 65% on input will be across driver. The L pad resistance between pins 1 and 2 is 0 when in the low position, 20 ohms when in mid position, and 40 ohms when in the high position. 

Certainly could replace the L pad with a resistor. A reisitor in series with tweeter would matter. It is going to have to be high wattage resistor. Mundorf M-resist Supreme 20W resistor would work nicely and are highly regarded. Certainly are other choices like the Mills MRA12. They are non inductive and should be soncially superior to the L pad. To double the power rating to 40W you would put two resistors in parallel. They come in standard resistance sizes of 3.9, 4.7, 5.6, 6.8 ohms. They are $17.10 each at Madison Sound. The Mills MRA12 resistors are less expensive at $7.10 each. They are 12W so you would need 3 or even 4 in parrallel to get the required wattage. I like the 2 o’clock position which is likely just under 3 ohms, so two 5.6 ohms for 2.8 ohms or a 5.6 and 6.8 for 3.2 as an example. I use an active XO, but still use the XO for the tweeter. I am going to do this for my tweeters in the new year. Thanks for getting me to think about this.

Some of the info above is not quite right. A 8 ohm L pad not only attenuates the power to tweeter but also always tries to maintain an 8 ohm load to the source. To do this there are two resistors, one in series to the tweeter between leads 2 and 3 and another in parrallel with the tweeter. When in low position 8 ohms between 2 and 3 there is 0 ohms between 1 and 2, so 8 ohm load to amp and no voltage across tweeter. When in mid position 4 ohms between 2 and 3 and 20 ohms between 1 and 2 providing 4 ohms plus 20 ohms in parrallel with 6 ohm tweeter a 8.6 ohm load to amp while providing half the voltage to tweeter. When very close to full on position say 1 ohm between 2 and 3 and 40 ohms between 1 and 2 which provides a load of 1+40 ohms in parrallel with tweeter 6 ohms equaling 6.2 ohms (close to 6) and nearly all voltage across tweeter. When you go to max level the reistance between 2 and 3 is 0 and resistance between 1 and 2 goes to open (I mispoke previously and said 40 ohms, goes to 40 at close to max and then open) so the load is then the load of tweeter of 6 ohms. So to maintain Brian's design and exact output level at your optimal position (say 2 o'clock) you need to determine this value for both resistors (measure) and then replace both with a quality resistors. Or you could just use one resistor and maintain a close to 8 ohm load to amp, but to get same spl level you have to do some figuring on its value to compensate for the missing resistor between pins 1 and 2 of the L pad. Pardon the long winded explantion.

Did a test to determine actual power across tweeter. A 1V 6Khz was close to 90dB SPL. So that is .16W. To double the subjective loudness would be 100dB and double again for good measure 110dB would be 17 watts. So a single 20W or even 12 W resistor would be fine.
« Last Edit: 10 Dec 2023, 07:16 am by GeorgeAb »