Advice on upgrade path for a newbie?

purplesaber · « **on:** 12 Mar 2010, 12:43 am »

Hello everyone!

So I put in an order for Salk SongBirds and have about a month to wait. I am new to the world of better audio and would love to get some advice and recommendations on what I can do to get the most enjoyment out of my system once those SBs arrive.

Here's what I have now: the SBs are for my living room and will be for music only. I currently have a Harman Kardon 3385 stereo receiver and all my music is stored digitally in iTunes (some lossless and some lossy). I will stream the music via an Airport Express: iTunes>Airport Express>analog mini-RCA connector>HK receiver>SongBirds.

I've been reading around trying to get ideas for what if anything I should consider as far as upgrading my set-up. What I'm trying to decide about are these various options:

1. Adding an external DAC between the Airport and the receiver. (So I can use toslink optical out of the Airport rather than the Airport's internal DAC).

2. Adding a pre-amp. Not sure I need this because I intend to only have one source (Airport) and can adjust volume via iTunes remote app on my iPhone so I don't need source switching or volume control.

3. Getting a more expensive amp.

4. Adding a tube stage in either pre-amp or amp.

5. Adding a sub-woofer

6. Using more expensive speaker cable (currently have Dayton speaker cable).

So, what if any of these would you consider if you were me? What would give me the most noticeable improvement I could hear with my non-audiophile ears? Basically what would you do first, what would you save for later, and what would you say isn't worth it?

I'm trying to balance maximizing the enjoyment of higher quality music, being reasonable with cost (let's say not above $1500 of upgrades) and keeping things attractive on the eye for my wife.

I am leaning towards an external DAC first. I've read good things about the Maverick D1 ($200) and of course there are other more expensive DACs.

I am also wondering about what a new amp would do. I don't really understand what improves with a better quality amp compared to a cheaper amp. The HK amp is pretty cheap and is rated at 80 wpc; I'm open to upgrading but curious what I'd expect to actually hear with something considered better quality or higher wpc. I've read about everything from inexpensive t-amps (like the Virtue One) to tube amps like the Jolida 202 to higher watt SS amps like Emotiva UPX-2. I also notice that a lot of people here like AVA gear, so the Insight 240 power amp at $1000 (paired with a DAC) is also interesting.

Lastly, anyone have any opinions about all-in-one products like the Peachtree Nova (DAC, tube preamp, 80 wpc SS amp at $1200)? There is also a cheaper cousin the Decco at 40 wpc.

Really appreciate any advice and guidance about how to get the most from my SongBirds!

Kinger · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 01:14 am »

I posted a thread like this a while back on the Starter's Block portion of AC. You might find some of the responses of value.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=77104.0

In many ways we are in the same boat with the only difference being that you are streaming music and I'm using a run of the mill Sony DVD player. Friend of mine loaned me a PS Audio DAC 3 to try with my system and I can say it certainly made an improvement in my sound. Personally, I decided to upgrade the amp/pre-amp first and go after source next. With a $1,500 budget you could go after some used gear and probably get all 3 items you are looking for. (Amp/Pre-amp and DAC)

Nuance · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 01:35 am »

Can you give some information regrading the room the SB's will reside in?

Personally, I believe nothing is more important in a man's journey to achieve great sound more than the speakers and the room that interacts with said speakers. If you get the speakers and room acoustics right, you're way ahead of the game. I also believe those things should be done before everything else, even though its not always practical. That way you know they (speakers and room) are no longer part of the equation and your upgrade path for the remaining components won't get impeded. If you wait to find a great pair of speakers and treat the room toward the end of the process, the other components you've added over time might not synergize well anymore. Best to focus on those things after the room and speakers are "right."

That's just my $0.02. But if I had to chose from your list only, I'd go preamp and amp, followed by subwoofer (which will be heavily based on what you chose for a preamp, as integration could be tricky if it doesn't have a subwoofer output). As to which I think "aren't worth it" - the speaker cables.

jglim0109 · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 01:38 am »

Definitely buy used stuff (audiogon.com). I just bought an amp/preamp for $1750 that would be $3000 new.

purplesaber · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 02:01 am »

Quote from: Kinger on 12 Mar 2010, 01:14 am

I posted a thread like this a while back on the Starter's Block portion of AC. You might find some of the responses of value.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=77104.0

In many ways we are in the same boat with the only difference being that you are streaming music and I'm using a run of the mill Sony DVD player. Friend of mine loaned me a PS Audio DAC 3 to try with my system and I can say it certainly made an improvement in my sound. Personally, I decided to upgrade the amp/pre-amp first and go after source next. With a $1,500 budget you could go after some used gear and probably get all 3 items you are looking for. (Amp/Pre-amp and DAC)

D'oh! That's what I get for not looking around the rest of the forums before posting. Your situation does seem very similar (although you went for the STs -- good for you!).

What amp/pre-amp did you get or are you thinking about? Did you go with separates or an integrated amp?

Still curious what sounds better when you upgrade to a more expensive amp. If you have already got a new amp what does is sound like compared to your Denon?

SwedeSound · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 02:02 am »

I am using this DAC http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/MCM-CUSTOM-AUDIO-50-7774---TC-7510-/50-7774 connected via Toslink cable, taking music streamed wirelessly from computer to an AEX such as yours using about 50-50 Apple Lossless and other formats. I have an HK 3480 which I LOVE and it drives my Monitor Audio Studio 6s with 120 w/ch effortlessly. It's a nice setup, coupled with a Sony CDP m333ES mega-storage cd player, i have lots of tunes at my finger tips, and it all sounds good. If your source will be Mac or PC-based in the future, why not get yourself a decent DAC now and enjoy more of what you currently have and then upgrade to a new amp later? That's just my two cents.

-Jason

purplesaber · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 02:17 am »

Quote from: Nuance on 12 Mar 2010, 01:35 am

Can you give some information regrading the room the SB's will reside in?

Personally, I believe nothing is more important in a man's journey to achieve great sound more than the speakers and the room that interacts with said speakers. If you get the speakers and room acoustics right, you're way ahead of the game. I also believe those things should be done before everything else, even though its not always practical. That way you know they (speakers and room) are no longer part of the equation and your upgrade path for the remaining components won't get impeded. If you wait to find a great pair of speakers and treat the room toward the end of the process, the other components you've added over time might not synergize well anymore. Best to focus on those things after the room and speakers are "right."

That's just my $0.02. But if I had to chose from your list only, I'd go preamp and amp, followed by subwoofer (which will be heavily based on what you chose for a preamp, as integration could be tricky if it doesn't have a subwoofer output). As to which I think "aren't worth it" - the speaker cables.

Thanks very much for the advice!

As far as the room -- well, that's a tricky one. It's our living room and I don't have much leeway with speaker placement or moving furniture. I also don't think my wife is going to let me do anything as far as wall treatments.

Let me see if I can upload a couple of pictures.

The speakers will go on either side of the bookshelf unit. There is a little room to move the bookshelves over so there is more space in the corner for a speaker. I know it's not ideal that the speakers are behind the couch, but they can't go over by the fireplace on the other side of the room. When I want to sit down and really listen to music I will slide one of the chairs over to center myself between the speakers.

So anything I can do with the room to help the speakers?

K Shep · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 02:17 am »

Quote from: purplesaber on 12 Mar 2010, 12:43 am

3. Getting a more expensive amp.

6. Using more expensive speaker cable (currently have Dayton speaker cable).

Congratulations on your purchase! If I may through the process of elimination, 3 & 6 above, please don't consider either until you have auditioned many amps and sat in front of a few systems. 3 & 6 wont make an audible difference, IMO, most of the time.

K Shep · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 02:23 am »

purplesaber,

I didn't notice your member name until I typed it...I won't ask.

Nice Eichler! You even have an Eames chair in your living room very nice!

And now back on topic.

purplesaber · « **Reply #9 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 02:26 am »

Quote from: SwedeSound on 12 Mar 2010, 02:02 am

I am using this DAC http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/MCM-CUSTOM-AUDIO-50-7774---TC-7510-/50-7774 connected via Toslink cable, taking music streamed wirelessly from computer to an AEX such as yours using about 50-50 Apple Lossless and other formats. I have an HK 3480 which I LOVE and it drives my Monitor Audio Studio 6s with 120 w/ch effortlessly. It's a nice setup, coupled with a Sony CDP m333ES mega-storage cd player, i have lots of tunes at my finger tips, and it all sounds good. If your source will be Mac or PC-based in the future, why not get yourself a decent DAC now and enjoy more of what you currently have and then upgrade to a new amp later? That's just my two cents.

-Jason

Thanks for the tip on the DAC - that's certainly a very reasonable price too! It's also good to hear that you like your HK receiver.

Can I ask what sounds different to you when you added the DAC (if you have ever compared it to analog out from the AEX)?

purplesaber · « **Reply #10 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 02:30 am »

Quote from: K Shep on 12 Mar 2010, 02:17 am

Congratulations on your purchase! If I may through the process of elimination, 3 & 6 above, please don't consider either until you have auditioned many amps and sat in front of a few systems. 3 & 6 wont make an audible difference, IMO, most of the time.

Thank you!

Do you say not to upgrade the amps because the differences between them are going to be subtle for me to notice or because it's more a matter of taste so I should get a sense of the "flavors" of different amps before buying one?

JerryM · « **Reply #11 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 02:33 am »

My system was very close to yours when I started upgrading. You should immediately look for a DAC so you can stop using the analog 'out' from the Airport Express.

When you use the analog out from an AE, you are utilizing its internal DAC chip. It is truly inferior (Read: Terrible) Just about any DAC will be far superior in every aspect. You don't need to spend tons of money to see how inferior the AE DAC is. The used market is replete with pretty decent DACs for a couple hundred bucks. That's all you need to hear the difference. Once you do this, then decide what your next step will be. It's the most immediate path to way better sound, IMHO.

Beautiful room, by the way.

Have fun,
Jerry

purplesaber · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 02:36 am »

Quote from: K Shep on 12 Mar 2010, 02:23 am

purplesaber,

I didn't notice your member name until I typed it...I won't ask.

Nice Eichler! You even have an Eames chair in your living room very nice!

And now back on topic.

Eichlers do have their charms -- my wife really wanted the room to have a midcentury modern look so she's the one who picked the furniture. The Eames chair is actually pretty comfy.

My username is just a little carry-over from my nerdy other hobby. My sons and I play role playing games with Star Wars miniatures (like D&D but with a Star Wars theme) and I use this name on Star Wars and gaming forums. Couldn't think of anything different so just used it here too.

Anyway like you said: back on topic.....

purplesaber · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 02:42 am »

Quote from: JerryM on 12 Mar 2010, 02:33 am

My system was very close to yours when I started upgrading. You should immediately look for a DAC so you can stop using the analog 'out' from the Airport Express.

When you use the analog out from an AE, you are utilizing its internal DAC chip. It is truly inferior (Read: Terrible) Just about any DAC will be far superior in every aspect. You don't need to spend tons of money to see how inferior the AE DAC is. The used market is replete with pretty decent DACs for a couple hundred bucks. That's all you need to hear the difference. Once you do this, then decide what your next step will be. It's the most immediate path to way better sound, IMHO.

Beautiful room, by the way.

Have fun,
Jerry

Thanks!

That's just what I wanted to hear about getting a DAC. I've read the AEX internal DAC is poor, but people don't usually make it clear that they actually tried it both ways and can hear a good difference.

One of the reasons I was asking about other options are these combination DAC/Amps like the Peachtree Nova -- if I get a DAC for sure is it worth getting an all-in-one like the Nova in one shot or just spending less money for a stand alone DAC to go with the HK receiver and get a DAC-less amp later on?

Also, have you ever heard if the internal DC in the Apple TV is any better then the one in the AEX? I've googled around but don't see much about whether it's the same DAC or any better.

JerryM · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 02:56 am »

Quote from: purplesaber on 12 Mar 2010, 02:42 am

Thanks!

That's just what I wanted to hear about getting a DAC. I've read the AEX internal DAC is poor, but people don't usually make it clear that they actually tried it both ways and can hear a good difference.

One of the reasons I was asking about other options are these combination DAC/Amps like the Peachtree Nova -- if I get a DAC for sure is it worth getting an all-in-one like the Nova in one shot or just spending less money for a stand alone DAC to go with the HK receiver and get a DAC-less amp later on?

Also, have you ever heard if the internal DC in the Apple TV is any better then the one in the AEX? I've googled around but don't see much about whether it's the same DAC or any better.

I don't know about the ATV DAC. It's unlikely that it's much better. Try any inexpensive DAC you can get your hands on just to stop using the analog out from the AE. In using the internal DAC, you cannot tell what your system really 'sounds' like. It's that big of a difference.

Then see what you want to upgrade. It'll be alot easier to hear.

Have fun,
Jerry

low.pfile · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 Mar 2010, 02:57 am »

congrats on your new speakers. should be fun.

not long ago I started my system with a receiver and speakers too and did a few component swapouts to see what worked for me. the advice above is all good. I would suggest starting with an external DAC in your system--that was my first tweak where I heard a difference.

A couple of ideas on trying out components. IF you are near a major city, there's likely an Audiocircle get to gether crowd. Either go to one or host one and have them bring their DACs. See if there is difference in your system. Also Audiogon used market allows you to buy a DAC at a fair price. Give it a spin--don't see favorable improvements, then sell it on Audio-sort of a DAC rental. Try popular brands that have a good resale market. Research a DAC that would work with your computer set up.

cheers,
ed

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 Mar 2010, 07:30 am »

Congratulations on your new speakers.

You have a very stylish room. I also like contemporary (1960s) furniture.

The most noticeable improvement might be, IME, getting rid of the lossy files. When I play anything through my system that is an AAC file that my 13 year old daughter downloaded from iTunes, the sound quality is horrid. The music is horrid, too.

Then comes the DAC, the preamp, and the amp, IMO.

purplesaber · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Mar 2010, 08:15 am »

Thanks for all the advice everyone!

I think I will get a DAC and keep my HK receiver for the time being.

I like the suggestion of Audiogon. Used is fine with me -- there's just so many different brands of gear! Well I guess that's why this is a hobby. Lot's of reading and exploring to do.

After I get my SongBirds then I'll see how everything sounds and see if the upgrade itch still needs scratching.

Quote from: oneinthepipe on 13 Mar 2010, 07:30 am

Congratulations on your new speakers.

You have a very stylish room. I also like contemporary (1960s) furniture.

The most noticeable improvement might be, IME, getting rid of the lossy files. When I play anything through my system that is an AAC file that my 13 year old daughter downloaded from iTunes, the sound quality is horrid. The music is horrid, too.

Then comes the DAC, the preamp, and the amp, IMO.

My wife is smiling from the compliments on the room -- she's the decorator in the family -- so thank you!

Also I have two sons, 15 and 12 years old, so I shudder with you about the musical tastes of teenagers. That's why they get their iPod docks but I get my SongBirds, baby!

purplesaber · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 Mar 2010, 08:20 am »

I guess I have one more question for you all if I may:

I read some of the very helpful threads about amps to pair with SongTowers. Do you think the same recommendations apply for SBs given they are smaller and have only one midwoofer? On the spec pages of the Salk site the STs and SBs both have the same recommended amplification ranges, so I assume what's good for STs would be good for SBs too, but curious if you agree.

srb · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Mar 2010, 09:04 am »

Quote from: purplesaber on 13 Mar 2010, 08:20 am

I guess I have one more question for you all if I may:

I read some of the very helpful threads about amps to pair with SongTowers. Do you think the same recommendations apply for SBs given they are smaller and have only one midwoofer? On the spec pages of the Salk site the STs and SBs both have the same recommended amplification ranges, so I assume what's good for STs would be good for SBs too, but curious if you agree.

Although both speakers list the same recommended amplifier power range, the SongBird's lower sensitivity of 84dB (compared to the SongTower's 88dB) will take twice the amplifier power to drive them to the same listening level.

That being said, it depends on how loud you like to listen. Although your seating position is relatively close to the speakers, your couch in between them will absorb some sound energy, particularly the higher frequencies and with the speakers toed-in.

I wouldn't worry too much for now, but if your listening habits will lean toward turning the volume up to realistic levels at times, you may run out of steam with the current amplifier pairing, and would probably benefit from an amplifier upgrade down the road. After the DAC, which I would agree would still be the next best step.

Steve