AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GIK Acoustics => Topic started by: EVOLVIST on 23 Aug 2017, 05:44 am
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Okay, please tell me you've heard of this...Feelings of anxiety without room treatment?
I moved into a new dedicated listening room. It's small. I posted a little diagram in another thread. 13x12x8. Hard. As. A. Rock. Stone tile floors. Bare walls. Not a stick of furniture. Speakers 7ft apart. Listening position 9.5ft away.
Man, I feel like crap when listening to music in this room. Has anyone heard of this malady before?
So, I went to Guitar Center and picked up some "Ultimate Acoustic" panels. There are twelve 12" x 12" diffusion panels and twelve 12" x 12" absorption panels, and two small bass traps. I mean, I just picked these up to see if room treatment would help...any kind of room treatment! (I kept the receipt, because I'm thinking, "Just try this out, and if it does anything I'll speak to someone from GIK.)
Okay, so I felt a little better while listening to music, but not really all that much. Granted, I just threw the stuff up on the back wall real quick, and a few odd panels on the side walls. I laid a throw rug down between me and my speakers. The speakers in question are some loaner speakers I have, some Dynaudio Focus 340s, while I await some custom speakers to be made for me.
But here's the trip...It can't be loud music and/or SPLs that makes me feel this way, can it, especially when I can blast the hell out of music in my car and feel fine? Or go to a concert and not feel anxious.
Okay, so a diagram of my room...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=167421)
So, originally when I posted this image I was kind of grousing about there not being too good of a solution for windows, but I hadn't moved into the room yet.
Now, I would do almost anything for it just to be room problems, fix the problem, and start enjoying music again. Haha! But seriously, the music starts playing and I literally feel anxious.
Okay, is this a room treatment thing?
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Not only 'a room treatment thing'.
Positioning of speakers and ears (listening chair) also play a part.
To see what is possible try 'The Thirds':
http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/monitoring.htm
Before doing that you could just walk around the room whilst some bassy music is being played and listen to this bass. It will sound different in different parts of the room.
To give you an idea what room treatment can do, here is before and after frequency response graph of the bass region:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=167422)
Green is without, purple with lots of bass traps. There is no smoothing with either reading. It's not perfect but sounds really good. In addition the bass traps have reduced the ringing of all frequencies so the sound is sharp, snappy - notable on percussion and piano for example.
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Small rooms require small solutions (small speakers, and small setups). Unfortunately your room size/shape is set. Being nearly square is bad for bass echo. Floor standing speakers such as the Dynaudio 340s can easily overwhelm a small room in bass output. Bass will concentrate along walls, so listening against the back wall will exaggerate bass. Most speakers are designed to be positioned away from walls to avoid exaggerating bass and first side wall reflections (from the diagram speakers appear to be very close to the angled windows). So it looks like bass (especially in a small room) would be highly boosted. The best sound comes from speakers/listener staying away from walls, which means soundstage gets smaller in a small room.
Hopefully the speakers you're having made have limited bass output, phase corrected between mid/tweeter drivers (to allow for near-field driver integration), and monopole (traditional front aiming) because in this small room you'll need to use a near-field setup. Think of desktop listening, but expanded. Near-Field helps to minimize room effects and provides a more involving, almost headphone experience. Recommend starting out with a 5ft x 5ft x 5ft speaker/listener layout in the middle of the room and experiment from there. I enjoy near-field listening in an 8ft x 13ft x 21ft room (a Fibonacci Sequence that ancient Greeks called the "Golden Rectangle") with a slightly larger layout and thanks to the Cardas recommendations/speaker design find GIK treatments to be of little use.
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This is what I'm afraid of. Small room = small solution = compromised SQ. I've got $25k in frontend gear that I might as well sell now.
I once visited a studio which was 10x10x8 and they had large Legacy focus SEs in there and the sound was sublime.
A person can't just treat the whole damn room from top to bottom?
Perhaps I'm talking square peg round hole here, which would suck. It makes me feel like just hanging up this whole audio thing of 35-years and calling it a wash. Ugghh.
P. S. The diagram is a little misleading in that I used the Sumiko/Master Set method to setup the speakers. I have no boo my bass. It sounds amazing. The speakers are something like 29" from the side walls, 19" from the front walls (that's just where the bass became unmuddied), and the speakers are out in the room. I'm at a loss if room treatment can't do anything. It images great. The sound stage is cool, and man, that center image is perfectly focused.
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Yes, it is a room treatment thing, in the sense that you have a (mostly) untreated room, there is no such thing as a perfect room, and every room can be improved. :thumb:
There are several ways to go about evaluating and treating this space. First off, if you wish to use GIK products, feel free to contact me (http://www.gikacoustics.com/category/acoustics-and-audiogeekery/) and I can work with you one on one to maximize results within your budget.
That said, let's take a look at some of the issues there. First off is placement, and there are a number of setup strategies you can use. Here is ours (http://www.gikacoustics.com/basics-room-setup-acoustic-panels-bass-traps/), with a bit more detail on speaker placement here (http://www.gikacoustics.com/room-setup-speaker-placement-201-part-one/). The best way to go is to try a few setups and do some testing, either informal listening tests or actual room measurement (http://gikacoustics.com/room-eq-wizard-tutorial/) with something like REW. This will also give you a clear "before" picture of your room, to show us where we need to make improvements.
There are 2 basic strategies I'd start with. First is bass trapping, which will be very important in a small, square room. This will level out the frequency response from 20-20k, and also reduce ringing or resonances common in small rooms like this.
Second is absorbing early reflections on the side walls, ceiling, and also probably the rear wall behind your head on the couch. This will help with the stereo image and soundstage, improve intelligibility, and reduce listener fatigue.
It's no surprise you are having an emotional/anxious response.... that's what music is for at the end of the day, yeah? But in a room like this, it's confusing to listen in because all the reflections are very early in time (because sound doesn't have very far to travel). So our ears are hearing basically the same sound from many locations, ie, first direct from the speakers, then all the reflections coming from various surfaces. It's a psychoacoustic jumbled mess, and our brains don't like it.
But don't worry.... we can certainly make things better using the above general strategies. And as I said I can work with you to determine the best treatments for your room and your budget if you wish to use GIK products. :thumb:
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JLM is right on the money. A nearfield room set-up would improve things greatly. Cardas Audio is a great resource for this:
http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_near_field.php
http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php
Experiment. Pulling your couch/ chair away from the back wall would likely help a lot. Applying draperies to your windows could help if your are getting some glare/ harshness to the sound. Put a rug down between your speakers & listening position. If you don't have draperies or rugs handy, use some blankets as temporary substitutes at test areas to see if improvements are made.
After these no-cost/ cheap measures, then consider sound panels to improve things even more. GIK Acoustics has some excellent research material on their site to help learn the basics: http://www.gikacoustics.com/basics-room-setup-acoustic-panels-bass-traps/
Another good source:
http://realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm
http://realtraps.com/modecalc.htm
I have done many of the things mentioned as well as added a GIK Acoustics room kit, & it makes for much improved sound.
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JLM is right on the money. A nearfield room set-up would improve things greatly. Cardas Audio is a great resource for this:
http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_near_field.php
http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php
Experiment. Pulling your couch/ chair away from the back wall would likely help a lot. Applying draperies to your windows could help if your are getting some glare/ harshness to the sound. Put a rug down between your speakers & listening position. If you don't have draperies or rugs handy, use some blankets as temporary substitutes at test areas to see if improvements are made.
After these no-cost/ cheap measures, then consider sound panels to improve things even more. GIK Acoustics has some excellent research material on their site to help learn the basics: http://www.gikacoustics.com/basics-room-setup-acoustic-panels-bass-traps/
Another good source:
http://realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm
http://realtraps.com/modecalc.htm
I have done many of the things mentioned as well as added a GIK Acoustics room kit, & it makes for much improved sound.
I have moved my seating around, but the results were always the same. I mean the really how could it be much different than where I was seated before when the speakers on hand are not designed for near field listening?
As I said it my previous post, I have set these speakers up with a very exact methodology where the bass sounds neither plonky, nor boomy, nor muddy. The center image is crystal clear.
Now, if we're saying that I abandon full range speakers for near field listening, then we're talking a totally different philosophy with me buying monitors, maybe a sub, and we've reached the realm of SQ and/or dynamic compromise, yes? I mean, I'll never be able to really feel Mahler or Metallica in a near field rig, or am I wrong? That concerns me. What small speakers are going to be able to give me all of that? Moreover, wouldn't I need to have the speakers that I'm going to keep to analyze my room? My speaker choice is obviously in a state of flux if that's the case.
So, yeah, I'm reading up on all of this. Thank you for the links. At the same time I feel as though I've gone down a rabbit hole. How could these huge Legacy Focus SE speakers sound great in a 10x10x8 treated room? That seems to kick against the brick of the concept of near field listening. *sigh*
I'm going to email James.
Thanks so much.
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I don't buy into the small speakers for small rooms. I have a small dedicated room (see below) and get great sound.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=51259)
I am running these speakers:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165021)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=167320)
What I have found is that OB bass does not load the room like boxed bass, I get clear articulate bass without boom. Treatments helped with this room.
With that said, although I am getting great sound, I don't know if better sound can be had in a larger space. I am currently considering moving to a larger room, but if I have to stay with this room I will still be happy with the sound. Of course, YMMV.
Best,
Ed
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I have moved my seating around, but the results were always the same. I mean the really how could it be much different than where I was seated before when the speakers on hand are not designed for near field listening?
As I said it my previous post, I have set these speakers up with a very exact methodology where the bass sounds neither plonky, nor boomy, nor muddy. The center image is crystal clear.
Now, if we're saying that I abandon full range speakers for near field listening, then we're talking a totally different philosophy with me buying monitors, maybe a sub, and we've reached the realm of SQ and/or dynamic compromise, yes? I mean, I'll never be able to really feel Mahler or Metallica in a near field rig, or am I wrong? That concerns me. What small speakers are going to be able to give me all of that? Moreover, wouldn't I need to have the speakers that I'm going to keep to analyze my room? My speaker choice is obviously in a state of flux if that's the case.
So, yeah, I'm reading up on all of this. Thank you for the links. At the same time I feel as though I've gone down a rabbit hole. How could these huge Legacy Focus SE speakers sound great in a 10x10x8 treated room? That seems to kick against the brick of the concept of near field listening. *sigh*
I'm going to email James.
Thanks so much.
What was the room dimensions & material construction of your previous set-up? Think of this room or any room like you are adding another speaker. It can add nulls/ peaks in frequency response, & change the personality of the sound by adding boominess, suck-out, glare in mid frequencies, etc.. So your previous set-up may not matter so much for this different environment.
I have full range transmission line speakers with very similar frequency response range to your speakers, & it sounds great nearfield. Try it & see. If you don't like it, move it back to whatever suits you. Speaker placement & listening position have a huge impact to the sound, but so does the interaction with the room. Measurements with mic & REW software more clearly show how all this interacts, but it is going down a rabbit hole for sure.
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What was the room dimensions & material construction of your previous set-up? Think of this room or any room like you are adding another speaker. It can add nulls/ peaks in frequency response, & change the personality of the sound by adding boominess, suck-out, glare in mid frequencies, etc.. So your previous set-up may not matter so much for this different environment.
I have full range transmission line speakers with very similar frequency response range to your speakers, & it sounds great nearfield. Try it & see. If you don't like it, move it back to whatever suits you. Speaker placement & listening position have a huge impact to the sound, but so does the interaction with the room. Measurements with mic & REW software more clearly show how all this interacts, but it is going down a rabbit hole for sure.
My previous room was our parlor, which is like 14x23 with this huge vaulted ceiling. I'm not even sure of the height. Lots of furniture, a hutch, two sofas and a fireplace. I'm actually the one who mentioned it to my wife that I don't want speakers in our sitting room. Now that I'm out I can't go back. Heh.
So yeah, fair enough, I will try a 5x5x5 triangle tonight, basically placing myself in the middle of the room.
Very interesting Ebag4's setup.
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I don't buy into the small speakers for small rooms.
+1... if you have a way to adjust the roll-off via port tuning or DSP to match the room it's not a problem. The thought that you can only have a compromised mini-system in a small room is misguided imo.
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My previous room was our parlor, which is like 14x23 with this huge vaulted ceiling. I'm not even sure of the height. Lots of furniture, a hutch, two sofas and a fireplace. I'm actually the one who mentioned it to my wife that I don't want speakers in our sitting room. Now that I'm out I can't go back. Heh.
So yeah, fair enough, I will try a 5x5x5 triangle tonight, basically placing myself in the middle of the room.
Very interesting Ebag4's setup.
At least get your LP further away from the back wall, this is a problem even with absorption behind the seat... 5ft might be a bit small but worth experimenting with...
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Do you have to decide the speakers that you are going to use in your room to get the best out of room treatment, or do you just make sure that problems with a near square room like mine are fixed, so that whatever you put in there should sound great?
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Do you have to decide the speakers that you are going to use in your room to get the best out of room treatment, or do you just make sure that problems with a near square room like mine are fixed, so that whatever you put in there should sound great?
IMO, yes.
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IMO, yes.
Hmmm... The speakers I have on order are a bit bigger than the ones I have now, though not by too much. 5'3"H x 10" W x 15" D.
What a conundrum.
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Here I go again.
My room is a perfect 12x12x8 square and I have the best sound I've ever gotten from my system in it. I did this with a diagonal speaker set up after much trial with standard prescribed methods. I got the idea from a thread on another forum. The thread referenced an article on the Decware site: http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm (http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm).
I do have GIK bass traps in two corners and absorption in various places. I recommend you read the article and on a rainy weekend move your speakers around. The three dimensional depth I hear is really something.
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You're perceiving your room as though it's a problem. All of us have a room and none of them are ideal. So what? You should be thankful that you have a dedicated room for your system. And don't even entertain the thought selling off your equipment or going smaller.
Positioning will solve most of your problems, and that's free, but it will take a lot of experimenting. Start by preparing for the arrival of your custom speakers by making the room more appealing with thick curtains, an 8'x10' rug, customized pictures that also serve as room treatment, etc. If the room looks and "feels" sterile, that's what your music will sound like no matter what you do.
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Glen has stated that thick curtains have almost no effect and don't absorb anything, which makes since to me. I'm not sure why so many people recommend them other than they are good for making it dark.
I was in my friends room the other day and he has large speakers and about the same size room as you. He also has about the same amount invested in his system, probably more. He has GIK room treatment "not a ton" and is using the EQ settings in Roon to even out the frequencies at his listening position. When you have a room that is small you really don't need to worry about how it sounds anywhere but your listening position IMO. So the downside of adjusting the sound with EQ. isn't as much of an issue. At least that's what I observed when I was there.
I don't know if he wants to chime in or not but his system is outstanding. Of course you will have some restrictions with sound staging because of size.
Don't sell your gear or sell your room short. You can make it sound amazing, I promise.
Greg
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You're perceiving your room as though it's a problem. All of us have a room and none of them are ideal. So what? You should be thankful that you have a dedicated room for your system. And don't even entertain the thought selling off your equipment or going smaller.
Good points, but in this case I wouldn't be bellyaching if I didn't have a real adverse psychical reaction to what's going on in the room.
I've had very sensitive ears my whole life. I wouldn't say that I'm "golden eared;" nevertheless, I have ears really built for this audio game. It's been a real blessing, but in this room what a curse!
I'll be speaking with James at GIK tomorrow.
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Here I go again.
My room is a perfect 12x12x8 square and I have the best sound I've ever gotten from my system in it. I did this with a diagonal speaker set up after much trial with standard prescribed methods. I got the idea from a thread on another forum. The thread referenced an article on the Decware site: http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm (http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm).
I do have GIK bass traps in two corners and absorption in various places. I recommend you read the article and on a rainy weekend move your speakers around. The three dimensional depth I hear is really something.
Cool article. Steve is practically a legend.
Do you happen to have pics of your room? No bother if you don't. I was curious in how your room looks.
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The issue with speakers and nearfield is if they integrate all the drivers at your listening position.
Before you commit to replacing your current speakers you should seek advice from the speaker manufacturers, or other users, on the question of nearfield listening. Ideally of course you should trial speakers in your room.
My speakers are these:
http://pointillistic.com/vmps-audio/RM30.htm
122cm tall and 150cm from my ears but they work well like that.
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The issue with speakers and nearfield is if they integrate all the drivers at your listening position.
Before you commit to replacing your current speakers you should seek advice from the speaker manufacturers, or other users, on the question of nearfield listening. Ideally of course you should trial speakers in your room.
My speakers are these:
http://pointillistic.com/vmps-audio/RM30.htm
122cm tall and 150cm from my ears but they work well like that.
Heh. To the bolded point, throughout my long search for speakers, I've yet to run into a speaker manufacturer who has said that their speakers won't work in my room. Maybe they are just figuring that the end user will have room treatment/correction already, or maybe they just want to sell speakers.
At any rate, with the ones that are being made for me I have a 60-day return policy, so the max I'm out is the shipping back to the company.
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Re: nearfield listening ...
If you can do the 5' triangle, great; but I am using 6' & it works out best measurement-wise for my 12' x 14' space.
Based on your previous more expansive room ...
If you prefer a wide soundstage (which I personally do), toe-in your speakers to where the intersection is approx. 1 ft. in front of your head.
You mentioned the loaner speakers, but what new speakers did you purchase? Type of speakers could play into orientation/ placement recommendations.
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Re: nearfield listening ...
If you can do the 5' triangle, great; but I am using 6' & it works out best measurement-wise for my 12' x 14' space.
Based on your previous more expansive room ...
If you prefer a wide soundstage (which I personally do), toe-in your speakers to where the intersection is approx. 1 ft. in front of your head.
You mentioned the loaner speakers, but what new speakers did you purchase? Type of speakers could play into orientation/ placement recommendations.
I'm not as much of a soundstage person as I am a depth and imaging person. Obviously, soundstage is nice, but it some cases, depending on how far your speakers are apart, it can be a little artificially wide, like listening to a pair of Senn HD800s. It's still very pleasing, though.
As for the speakers, I've ordered Tekton Design "Mini-Ulfberhrts," which aren't even on their website yet. I think my serial numbers will be #3&4.
So, these guys are a bit taller at 5'3", which should be fine with an 8ft ceiling. They are nominally thin at 10" and average in depth at 15". I made sure to order them with grills, otherwise they would be butt ugly due to their double tweeter array.
Of course like I said in my last post I have 60-days on them as a trial, yet since they are so new, and nobody has actually gotten them in hand yet, I have no idea how long it's going to take to get them to me. It was said 2 weeks, but I ordered them August 7th, and there's been no word.
In speaking with James from GIK this morning, he wasn't too concerned with what speakers I have in the room, as long as the problems inherent to the room or fixed.
It's amazing that I could feel that anxious over listening to speakers in my untreated room. It makes sense, however, in that my brain is trying to decode left speaker reflection on the right side of my head, and vice versa.
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Cool article. Steve is practically a legend.
Do you happen to have pics of your room? No bother if you don't. I was curious in how your room looks.
For me, the main improvement with the square room config was image depth.
Here are a few pics:
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/007096316089/media/23143776871/medium/1456416104/enhance)
(http://i.imgur.com/wNuVtfh.jpg?1)
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/007096316089/media/23143782143/medium/1501015606/enhance)
(http://i.imgur.com/GsNkzrx.jpg?1)
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Timind...That is really friggin' cool! Thank you.
After reading the article it really got me to thinking. You asked for a rainy weekend, well, I'm in Houston, Texas, so this one will be quite rainy. If I have power I'll be good to go. :icon_lol:
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For me, the main improvement with the square room config was image depth.
Here are a few pics:
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/007096316089/media/23143776871/medium/1456416104/enhance)
(http://i.imgur.com/wNuVtfh.jpg?1)
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/007096316089/media/23143782143/medium/1501015606/enhance)
(http://i.imgur.com/GsNkzrx.jpg?1)
How far from the front walls are your speakers?
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I'm not as much of a soundstage person as I am a depth and imaging person.
This doesn't make any sense. The soundstage is the context for the content of imaging. The two go hand in hand. A puny soundstage may work for a very simple arrangement, but not much else. You can't pour a pint into a shot glass. There has to be enough room on the stage for everyone with adequate space between them to facilitate good imaging. Too many people have no idea as to what good imaging is because their speakers aren't far enough apart, so everything is tightly crammed together like sardines in a can.
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How far from the front walls are your speakers?
Not sure what the front wall is in this config, but measured from the tweeters: straight behind to wall is 32 inches, straight to side along plain of baffle is 36 inches and diagonally to wall is 25 inches. Speakers are 70 inches apart measured tweeter to tweeter. My listening position from tweeter to ear is 7 to 8 feet depending on mood and chair placement.
When I initially set this up it was eyeballed. After living with it I decided to measure for exact placement by measuring from the corner on each side and running a string across the room. I then measured along the string to get perfect speaker placement and taped spots on the floor. My eyeball measurements were off a couple inches from perfect.
Here are a couple pics of my first attempt when I was using Thiel 1.6 speakers. The Thiels should give an excellent spatial presentation. In the square room I couldn't get any image depth so tried this after some research and am sticking to it. I have the opportunity to move into a more traditional shaped room, but I'm too happy with what I'm hearing to change.
Here's a before and after with Thiels:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=167508)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=167509)
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This doesn't make any sense. The soundstage is the context for the content of imaging. The two go hand in hand. A puny soundstage may work for a very simple arrangement, but not much else. You can't pour a pint into a shot glass. There has to be enough room on the stage for everyone with adequate space between them to facilitate good imaging. Too many people have no idea as to what good imaging is because their speakers aren't far enough apart, so everything is tightly crammed together like sardines in a can.
I'm talking an overtly large soundstage greater than 90 degrees. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Anything greater than 90 degrees is not inherent in a stereo recording, with 80 degrees being more of the norm, at least from my understanding. I mean, haven't you heard placement of speakers to where everything in the center sounded diffuse, because the speakers were too wide apart, causing elements of the recording, right and left, to sound hard panned when they really are not?
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I'm talking an overtly large soundstage greater than 90 degrees. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Anything greater than 90 degrees is not inherent in a stereo recording, with 80 degrees being more of the norm, at least from my understanding.
90 degrees? 80 degrees? Could you explain what you mean by this?
I mean, haven't you heard placement of speakers to where everything in the center sounded diffuse,because the speakers were too wide apart...
Honestly, I have not. Usually it's the exact opposite where the speakers are too close together and the soundstage is too small.
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90 degrees? 80 degrees? Could you explain what you mean by this?
You might want to read up on the origins of stereo. Alan Blumlein. How the Westrex system of 45/45 on the cutting head of a record was developed and why, and how that still applies to recordings today, because even when recording consoles began implementing pan pots (as opposed to simply assigning elements right and left), these pots were still limited to 45 degrees for the right channel, and 45 degrees for the left, making a sum of 90 degrees. How your recordings were mixed is encoded into vinyl or CD, and the max that an analog mixing board can throw the soundstage right and left is 90 degrees.
There are, however, digital widening effects, and of course binaural audio, but, as you might know, this accounts for an extremely small percentage of available recordings.
Despite the limitations of 90 degree stereo, the pleasant surprise has always been spacial cues, due to great microphone techniques, which adds depth, layers and 3D information to recordings. See also Alan Blumlein. This is where the magic of stereo really comes in, when you have engineers who know how to properly mic instruments, to set the depth of recordings. On the other hand, these same techniques lend themselves to mono recordings, too, so it's no limited to just stereo.
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I'm not interested in reading up on the history of stereo. We were talking about something else. If you have a clear concise answer to my question that would help; if not, that's fine.
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I'm not interested in reading up on the history of stereo. We were talking about something else. If you have a clear concise answer to my question that would help; if not, that's fine.
I'm not sure what's difficult to understand. If you can only separate instruments 90 degrees, while using pan pots in a mixing console, then the width of the stereo image will max out at 90 degrees. Period.
You can attempt to circumvent what's inherent on the physical medium by placing your speakers a certain distance apart, but that does not mean you will achieve a "wider" soundstage, only a possibly skewed one. But yeah, I've heard center channel imaging become recessed in the soundstage by having too great of a distance between speakers.
That's as succinct as I can put it. Otherwise, you can lead a horse to water...
As for me, my goal is to learn more about room treatment, which is why I've taken every post into consideration (for those addressing room treatment, that is).
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:roll: :duh:
You're still not making any sense. You mentioned "an overtly large soundstage greater than 90 degrees." WTF is a 90 degree soundstage??
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https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/36/index.html
"Classical stereo theory, applicable to recordings made with crossed-pair coincident microphones, suggests that for optimal playback the speakers should be placed 45 degrees to the left and right of the stereo centerline, subtending a total angle of 90 degrees. But in many living rooms (and dealer showrooms as well), the total angle is only 45 degrees or so. Many books and magazine articles suggest an intermediate answer of 60 degrees (±30 degrees from the centerline), with the two speakers and the listener's chair forming an equilateral triangle."
I do the equilateral triangle set-up, so 60 degrees. That is why I toe-in my speakers to intersect a foot in front of me in order to get a wider soundstage than my speakers (but still keeping the same distance for each leg of the equilateral triangle). To each their own though.
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This doesn't make any sense. The soundstage is the context for the content of imaging. The two go hand in hand. A puny soundstage may work for a very simple arrangement, but not much else. You can't pour a pint into a shot glass. There has to be enough room on the stage for everyone with adequate space between them to facilitate good imaging. Too many people have no idea as to what good imaging is because their speakers aren't far enough apart, so everything is tightly crammed together like sardines in a can.
EVOLVIST, to Wind Chaser's point ...
I have always thought of soundstage accounting for overall width & depth of the musicians on the stage, & imaging accounting for specific musicians/ instruments location on a stage. I always refer to J. Gordon Holt's Audio Glossary:
https://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html
imaging: The measure of a system's ability to float stable and specific phantom images, reproducing the original sizes and locations of the instruments across the soundstage. See "stereo imaging”.
stereo imaging: The production of stable, specific phantom images of correct localization and width. See "soundstaging," "vagueness," "wander."
phantom image: The re-creation by a stereo system of an apparent sound source at a location other than that of either loudspeaker.
soundstaging, soundstage presentation: The accuracy with which a reproducing system conveys audible information about the size, shape, and acoustical characteristics of the original recording space and the placement of the performers within it.
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Right. I had already said something to affect that I wasn't being clear with my original post.
Those are very cool definitions. Thanks for those.
Phantom image.... Hmmmm....
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https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/36/index.html
"Classical stereo theory, applicable to recordings made with crossed-pair coincident microphones, suggests that for optimal playback the speakers should be placed 45 degrees to the left and right of the stereo centerline, subtending a total angle of 90 degrees.
Okay, that is a clear explanation, but from the way Evolvist explained it, I'm not so sure that's what he meant.
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Okay, that is a clear explanation, but from the way Evolvist explained it, I'm not so sure that's what he meant.
I explained the mechanics behind it, but you refused to read - instead wanting to be spoonfed the information - which explains why you suddenly get it, when someone actually spoonfed you. Then, in a not so subtle way, you have either refused, or you are incapable of drawing a logical line from A to B to C.
In the quoted text from Stereophile they explicitly say that the speaker setup in question is tied to the actual recording, which I have been saying all along, i.e. mic techniques, which dovetailed into record cutting techniques, which ran into the way recording consoles were designed, which all runs into sound reproduction via a physical medium, which is the same as it was 80-years ago (more or less). Thus the quoted article.
I hope you've learned something. Now, do us both a favor and stay away from me, unless you can draw a little diplomacy from your passive/aggressive tendencies.
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An interesting coincidence... I position my speakers by ear. I don't refer to anything like the Cardas formula or anyone else's guide to loudspeaker set up. I have enough confidence in my own judgement that I know when something sounds right.
So here's what I've got; my speakers are almost 12' apart and there is almost 8' between them and my ears. Here's a scaled illustration of what that arrangement looks like...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=167575)
With the speakers that far apart, some might suspect that there'd be a whole in the middle, or at the very least there'd be poor center fill, but I can assure you that's not the case. This arrangement provides a large sound stage and facilitates the best imaging I have ever heard. This is due in part to the speakers themselves which have a wave guide, so room interaction is kept to a minimum
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I explained the mechanics behind it, but you refused to read
I didn't ask for the mechanical explanation. A simple question deserves a simple answer.
- instead wanting to be spoonfed the information - which explains why you suddenly get it, when someone actually spoonfed you. Then, in a not so subtle way, you have either refused, or you are incapable of drawing a logical line from A to B to C.
You didn't explain the A to B to C part. Maybe if you had put a little more effort into explaining yourself...
SNIP
I hope you've learned something. Now, do us both a favor and stay away from me, unless you can draw a little diplomacy from your passive/aggressive tendencies.
You need to work on your communication skills. :wink:
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First, I believe I figured out what was making me feel all wiggy when listening to music. I was sitting in a highback chair, where the back of my head was totally covered by the back of the chair. Moreover, the back of the chair is concave, rounded inward, so all of these sounds were just pooling around my head, along with whatever funkiness is going on in my room.
I switched chairs. Bam! Instant gratification.
But I also took a page from Timind's playbook. It's not exactly 45 degrees in the room; nevertheless, I'm not battling a square, either. In fact, I flipped the room where my back is now to the windows.
Even cooler, I'm using the two alcoves in my room as the "front wall," basically eliminating the front wall, because now there is no wall behind my speakers. The ports are aimed into a hallway and the kitchen. At least it's cool to me, because now the bass sounds more natural than it ever has with these Dynaudio 340s.
The only problem is - I don't know - it might be a trick of the brain, but I'm still trying to get a stable center image. It's nearly there; it's only a matter of inches (or centimeters) this way or that way. It's just weird, for I'm used to looking at a center in space, on a flat wall, to serve as an imaging guide, but now my seat and the speakers are off-center in the room, so getting a fixed point is a little more difficult, if that makes sense.
Another neat part of this trick is that this arrangement gives me more physical space. Granted, the space is dictated by keeping my speakers within the boundaries of the alcoves, but now I can squeeze a 9' x 9' x 9' equilateral triangle out of this space if I wanted to. Right now everything is about 8.5ft, which is good, because the speakers I ordered are a little bigger.
Here is a little quick view of the room. Obviously acoustic room treatment is in the cards. Any thoughts?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=167745)
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First off, so glad to see you aren't flooded or in any danger from Harvey. Whew.
The low back chair was a brilliant move. My chair is nothing to look at, but has a very low back and is surprisingly comfy.
During my journey with the diagonal set up I was constantly questioning my alignment. It's hard to keep that paranoia at bay. My solution was to measure as mentioned in my previous post. I also measured the point to center my chair on the speakers. Here's a pic which shows the string:
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/007096316089/media/23143800201/medium/1501015606/enhance)
Dang, these pics get fuzzy when resized to fit.
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Evolvist, I send you most of this as an email. :thumb: But I do have some thoughts on this:
Excellent. Yes I can definitely see a concave, high-backed chair causing weirdness. And, the open doorways in the corners are almost like bass traps, because the bass goes out the corners and doesn't come back. So.... well done! And, there are arguments for never being in the middle of any of the 3 dimensions of the room, including left/right, because you will be sitting in a modal null point for the frequencies related to the width (quarter wavelength, half wavelength, etc).
The cost of a non-symmetrical setup, however, is the suboptimal imaging/soundstage. The way to regain this is to get the reflection point absorbers up on the side walls and ceiling. By eliminating these early reflections, it will re-assert some acoustic symmetry, and the imaging/soundstage will improve.
I would also treat the walls behind you, especially if they are aiming reflections back to your ears. From the drawing, it looks likely, though you can also check them with the "mirror trick." For these panels on the 3 angled rear walls, I'd consider using Scatter Plates inside the panels, or if you prefer the look Alpha or Impression series with the plates outside the cloth.
I'd still recommend making all the panels as thick as possible, so it helps level out the differences between low & high end in the room.
Once you have maximized the sound potential of the room with the best possible setup, you can really take things next-level with treatments.
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I've gotten some pretty good imaging now, after fiddling with it some more. Using a different chair didn't didn't do the whole trick, but it helped.
Now on to working out the room treatment.