AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Daedalus Audio => Topic started by: advanced101 on 12 Feb 2019, 06:50 pm

Title: Daedalus BOW
Post by: advanced101 on 12 Feb 2019, 06:50 pm
Hello All.

Looking to add subwoofers to my Orpheus setup, have been talking to Lou and he recommended the BOWs.

Wanted to get BOW users experiences on amplifier, cable choices and any other recommendations.  Debating between Class D and Class A/B. 

Thanks!
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: Daedalus Audio on 12 Feb 2019, 08:36 pm
Depending on the wattage of what the main speakers are being driven by,
two of my favorites are the Parasound New Classic series and the ModWright KWI -150.
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: vinyl_lady on 14 Feb 2019, 09:53 pm
I have a pair of BOWs I'm running with my Apollo 11s. I ran the BOWs with my D.A. 1-1v2s before I sold them and bought the 11s. The BOWs added depth and foundation to the music and ensure that my system would reproduce the lowest notes on the Hammond B3. Also, the detail in the mid range and tweeters improved with the BOWs in the system. I am driving the BOWs with a Bryston 4B ST. It has great low end control. I'm using AudioQuest Panther interconnects between the pre amp and the XO and between the XO and the Bryston. The cables are Synergestic Research Alpha Quad with active shielding.
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: advanced101 on 16 Feb 2019, 08:26 pm
Deposit placed on a pair of BOWs finished in Claro Walnut to match my Orpheus speakers.  Per Lou's recommendation I am leaning towards the Parasound NewClassic 2250 v.2.  Looks like a lot of amplifier for the money.
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: Scottdazzle on 16 Feb 2019, 11:38 pm
I suggest you consider Bel Canto REF600M monoblocks. I’m driving my Apollo 11 speakers full range with them. The bass control, depth, finesse, and solidity are superb. I imagine they would be excellent for the BOWs.
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: Daedalus Audio on 17 Feb 2019, 12:50 am
I suggest you consider Bel Canto REF600M monoblocks. I’m driving my Apollo 11 speakers full range with them. The bass control, depth, finesse, and solidity are superb. I imagine they would be excellent for the BOWs.
While the Bel Canto are excellent, they are a bit overkill for this application. At almost five times the cost as the Parasound, there would be no advantage to using them for the BOW. As full range amps the BelCanto win hands down but for low bass only the Parasound perform exceptionally well and are pretty much unbeatable for anywhere near their price.
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: genjamon on 17 Feb 2019, 04:16 am
That Parasound does look like a ton of amp for the money. If one wanted to give class d a try, the latest Icepower amps based on the 1200AS module available from many vendors come in at not much more than the Parasound. Most refined Class D yet. But would give that iron fisted high damping factor sound to the bass if that’s what you were after.
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: A_shah on 17 Feb 2019, 04:58 am
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: Daedalus Audio on 18 Feb 2019, 02:15 am
That Parasound does look like a ton of amp for the money. If one wanted to give class d a try, the latest Icepower amps based on the 1200AS module available from many vendors come in at not much more than the Parasound. Most refined Class D yet. But would give that iron fisted high damping factor sound to the bass if that’s what you were after.
I have found that only the very best class D have the bass extension and dynamics that are needed for these speakers. Most people use them with speakers that in reality do not do much below 30hz, whereas this is a different ball game. Also as we all know all "watts" are not created equal, ( I am referring to specs that are published) and while a 60 watt tube amp will often match a 120 watt A/B, I have heard 1000 watt Class D that had no more punch or headroom than a much much lower rated conventional SS amp.
BTW , these drivers are custom built for us and unlike almost all other subwoofer drivers do NOT require a high damping factor to stay controlled and tight.
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: genjamon on 18 Feb 2019, 02:25 am
Understood, Lou. And I do prefer a quality SS A/B amp with my DA-RMa V2’s over the aforementioned class d amp. The class d edges the SS on detail, but is overly damped and tight sounding. The traditional SS has an ease and emotion that leaves the ultra clean class d sounding a bit sterile. I would think using the class d on BOW duty might cause a mid-match I character between the drivers, so would lean toward the Parasound for that reason.
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: Daedalus Audio on 18 Feb 2019, 02:33 am
Understood, Lou. And I do prefer a quality SS A/B amp with my DA-RMa V2’s over the aforementioned class d amp. The class d edges the SS on detail, but is overly damped and tight sounding. The traditional SS has an ease and emotion that leaves the ultra clean class d sounding a bit sterile. I would think using the class d on BOW duty might cause a mid-match I character between the drivers, so would lean toward the Parasound for that reason.
Exactly! :thumb:
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: Folsom on 1 Mar 2019, 09:23 pm
What are the specs on the BOW?
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: Daedalus Audio on 3 Mar 2019, 07:22 pm
What are the specs on the BOW?

https://www.daedalusaudio.com/copy-of-bow-subwoofer-1 (https://www.daedalusaudio.com/copy-of-bow-subwoofer-1)

Just updated the Specifications link. We are gradually rebuilding the site, thanks everyone for your patience. :)
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: JohnR on 4 Mar 2019, 01:19 am
I expect the woofer is proprietary, not propitiatory. (In the specs)
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: Daedalus Audio on 4 Mar 2019, 02:38 am
I expect the woofer is proprietary, not propitiatory. (In the specs)

Thanks John! I always appreciate grammar and spelling checks!
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: dodgealum on 23 Nov 2020, 05:24 pm
Hey all--just reached out to Lou to get the conversation going on adding a BOW to my Apollo's. We are moving and my new listening room is triple the volume to what I am in now. Huge vaulted ceilings and open to the kitchen as well. I am torn between adding a second LTA UL or moving to the BOW. I can't afford to do both and may have to limit my BOW to a single cabinet. I see the praise for the Parasound but am looking at other Class D options. For example, a single D-Sonic monoblock amp or similar might be an alternative:

https://www.d-sonic.com/product-category/mono/

I know this thread has not been active for a while so am wondering what the view of the current Class D playing field and whether the D-Sonic or some other might provide performance similar to the Parasound?
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: advanced101 on 23 Nov 2020, 05:54 pm
The only advice I can give is to get a sub amp with similar damping characteristics to your main speakers.

My speakers are run with a tube amp with low damping and my Bows are run with the Parasound which has a much higher damping factor.  Although the Parasound is crazy good for the dollar there is a slight mismatch in the bass, and I mean slight. 

With my experience, I would avoid mixing Class D and tube amps.  This is just IMHO, the Bows are very sensitive to what you feed them.  Slap them in the system and they will sound good.  Experiment with cabling, feet, get the level just right, and have a well matching amp then it will sound great.

Because I haven't tested my Bows with a tube amp I can only hypothesize.

My future step will be to move my EAR 509 mkii monoblocks to the Bows and go back to a SET amp for the speakers.  Overkill? You betcha!

Overall though, the Bows were some of the best dollars I've spent in audio.  I love my Orpheus and Bows and they continue to get better as I upgrade other parts of system.  I have never heard better bass integration.
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: vinyl_lady on 23 Nov 2020, 06:06 pm
Mark,

So glad to hear you will be adding a BOW (or two) to your Apollo 11s. As I indicated above, it will improve the foundation of your system, provide great clarity in the mids and highs and ensure that you hear the very lowest notes. I've been driving my Bows with a 1985 Bryston 4B that was upgraded to the toroidal transformers in 2003 with some new caps and wiring and a new power cord so that it is essential a 4B ST. It does a great job driving the BOWs.

Happy Thanksgiving to all. 
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: rbbert on 23 Nov 2020, 08:06 pm
I'm sure Lou has his reasons but I'm sorry he no longer offers the BOW with dedicated X-over and amp.  Leaving that up to user seems to somewhat defeat his purpose in offering the BOW; using something like one of the REL subs and their high-level input (no high pass filter for the main speakers) is likely to have a better result in many (most) cases.  JMO.
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: Daedalus Audio on 23 Nov 2020, 08:27 pm
I'm sure Lou has his reasons but I'm sorry he no longer offers the BOW with dedicated X-over and amp.  Leaving that up to user seems to somewhat defeat his purpose in offering the BOW; using something like one of the REL subs and their high-level input (no high pass filter for the main speakers) is likely to have a better result in many (most) cases.  JMO.

The BOW and Crossover are still in the current product line. To be honest they are a pain to build so I don't do much to promote them.
They fill a niche for someone willing to have separates and who wants a very detailed, efficient and responsive sub.
Thanks,
Lou
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: rbbert on 23 Nov 2020, 09:21 pm
The BOW and Crossover are still in the current product line. To be honest they are a pain to build so I don't do much to promote them.
They fill a niche for someone willing to have separates and who wants a very detailed, efficient and responsive sub.
Thanks,
Lou
:thumb:
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: Drew769 on 24 Nov 2020, 03:13 am
I had used my DA-1.1 V2s with a pair of Vandersteen 2WQ powered subwoofers.  Vandersteen’s subwoofers designs all call for the use of a high pass between the preamplifier and amplifier.  The subwoofers get their signal from the same speaker taps as the main speaker.  The 2WQs get crossed over att 80hz, while the Quatro and Model 5s get crossed at 100hz.  The main speakers no longer have to attempt to reproduce the lowest frequencies, and the main amplifier is able to be less stressed.  The result is improved midrange and great synergy with the subwoofers.  It completely changed the DA-1.1s and made them faster, more accurate, and more impactful at the same time.  If you use the crossover boxes designed for the Model 5, you can play with the settings to fine tune the best crossover point to match your main speakers.

Vandersteen now makes an improved version of that sub with the room correction technology from the 5 and 7 speakers. The older 2WQs are a great value.  You can easily get a pair for under a grand.  At that price they are giant killers.
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: Daedalus Audio on 24 Nov 2020, 07:58 pm
I had used my DA-1.1 V2s with a pair of Vandersteen 2WQ powered subwoofers.  Vandersteen’s subwoofers designs all call for the use of a high pass between the preamplifier and amplifier.  The subwoofers get their signal from the same speaker taps as the main speaker.  The 2WQs get crossed over att 80hz, while the Quatro and Model 5s get crossed at 100hz.  The main speakers no longer have to attempt to reproduce the lowest frequencies, and the main amplifier is able to be less stressed.  The result is improved midrange and great synergy with the subwoofers.  It completely changed the DA-1.1s and made them faster, more accurate, and more impactful at the same time.  If you use the crossover boxes designed for the Model 5, you can play with the settings to fine tune the best crossover point to match your main speakers.

Vandersteen now makes an improved version of that sub with the room correction technology from the 5 and 7 speakers. The older 2WQs are a great value.  You can easily get a pair for under a grand.  At that price they are giant killers.

While every room and system is unique I generally do not recommend running the signal for the Daedalus mains through a subwoofer XO. I also do not recommend a crossover frequency above 40 hz (except for HT).  These recommendations are especially true for our current speakers and the Daedalus Apollo line.  I do reiterate that each system, room and individual are different, and there is no harm in experimenting to see what works best for your system. 
btw at frequencies above 55hz the location of the sub is critical to the imaging, they should be in stereo and very close to the main speaker(s).
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: sunnydaze on 24 Nov 2020, 08:15 pm
  Vandersteen’s subwoofers designs all call for the use of a high pass between the preamplifier and amplifier.  The subwoofers get their signal from the same speaker taps as the main speaker. 

Not understanding this.    :scratch:

High passing before the main amp means it is only getting 80 or 100 hz and above.
If sub is attached high level to main amp, then how can the sub receive any frequencies below 80 or 100Hz, since they don't exist in the main amp?

I must be missing something....... :dunno:
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: rbbert on 24 Nov 2020, 10:28 pm
I have my REL low-pass set for -3 dB at 30 Hz, no filter on the mains.  However, raising or lowering the volume on the sub will change the “crossover” frequency, since there is no real crossover.  In any case, I don’t ever really hear the sub, although turning it off while listening to wide range music it is then noticeable
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: advanced101 on 24 Nov 2020, 11:44 pm
I think a lot of the magic with the Bows is in his crossover.  Guys, don't over think it, get the Bows.  Get two, put it on a credit card  :lol:

A good friend of mine listened to my system with the Bows and immediately went out and bought two REL G1mkii as he was convinced what subs can bring to the equation.  I helped try to dial them in, including the hi level connection.  The integration is good, but not close to mine.  I wouldn't trade those subs for the Bows.  I have also personally owned a JL F113 with a pair of B&W 800D2.  Those paired well, still not as good as the Bows. 

From the driver, to the cabinet to the specifically designed crossover... Daedalus Bows are meant to work with Daedalus speakers.

I have no doubt REL or JL would sound good with the Daedalus, I just believe the Bows will sound better with less effort.  Plus they match aesthetically.

Now if someone can please buy my speakers so I can move up to the Zeus :p
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: rbbert on 25 Nov 2020, 12:43 am
I already had the REL ;)  What is the cost of the BOW and Xover (amp to be determined but lots of options in the used market)?
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: advanced101 on 25 Nov 2020, 01:53 am
Sorry, that wasn't directed towards you.

I don't want to say what I paid as that was at least a year ago.  Compared to REL, I would have had to pay double to get a pair of G1mkii. 
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: rbbert on 25 Nov 2020, 12:50 pm
Sorry, that wasn't directed towards you.

I don't want to say what I paid as that was at least a year ago.  Compared to REL, I would have had to pay double to get a pair of G1mkii.
My response was more curiosity and an effort to get more information and opinions into this thread.  As I said, I already have the REL, but that’s not to say I wouldn’t consider upgrade or change; after all, that’s how I ended up with the Apollo 11’s.   8)
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: dminches on 25 Nov 2020, 01:08 pm
Not understanding this.    :scratch:

High passing before the main amp means it is only getting 80 or 100 hz and above.
If sub is attached high level to main amp, then how can the sub receive any frequencies below 80 or 100Hz, since they don't exist in the main amp?

I must be missing something....... :dunno:

The high pass filter rolls off the lower frequencies (this can be adjusted) by about 6 dB.  The sub bumps these frequencies back up.  Thus, the signal going to the main amp is reduced but the sub is able to boost it back.
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: sunnydaze on 25 Nov 2020, 07:48 pm
The high pass filter rolls off the lower frequencies (this can be adjusted) by about 6 dB.  The sub bumps these frequencies back up.  Thus, the signal going to the main amp is reduced but the sub is able to boost it back.

OK...thanks.   :thumb:

I thought "high-passing" completely eliminates the LF signal.  If it just "quiets" them, then what you say makes sense to me now.
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: A_shah on 30 Nov 2020, 06:12 pm
First of all i would like to update regarding the break in period of my Posedon speakers , it took a while I connected the main speakers to Denon AVR 4500H , it took about 60 hours for me to notice any change in the speaker dynamics and sound they started to sound sweet .
I have them back in my two channel system with my very resolving QuickSliver mono amps - The Magic is back !!

I am with Lou when it comes to subwoofers  not very fond of them when it comes to two channel listening, but honestly a pair of REL S/812 did the trick I hardly notice  them unless I turn them off ! than I know I am missing something !  The REL S/812 are dual purpose subwoofers ( true sub bass as John Hunter puts it ! very fast very dynamic )they can be separately tuned both for Home theater & two channel listening My HT system is completely separate but share source components like the OPPO 205
The RELs are connected via the LFE for HT and than separately via "High Level "connections to the 8 ohm taps of the tube  monoblocks and are tuned to match with the Poseidons  :thumb:

Asghar
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: figcon on 10 Dec 2020, 01:33 am
I've not been on Audiocircle in quite a while, but thought I might chime in as I have what may be the only pair of BOW's with double 12's in each cabinet. They are fantastic subwoofers, especially with Daedlaus speakers. I drove them for a while with a Bryston 4B and a modified Behringer 2496, but now using a pair of Dayton SPA 1000's and while not necessarily audiophile approved, they are fantastic sub amps and have quite a bit of adjustability built in to them. Probably around 500-700 watts per side and I guess kind of a hybrid power supply with a good sized transformer and what they call a "Patented tracking downconverter power supply for high efficiency". They are rated to be 86% efficient, so obviously part "Class D" in the power supply. The amps weigh about 17 pounds each, out of their packaging. Call it whatever you want, but the results a whole lot better than the Bryston/Behringer were. I run my Ulysses full range and have the subs LP crossover set at right around 30 Hz, which is the lowest LP available. I'm not sure of the crossover slope, as they don't list this, but they work great and connect directly to my amp with about 1 foot of wire. I had a guy over who used to be the sales manager for a famous sub manufacturer and he was blown away by the subs. Me, too. 
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: Early B. on 10 Dec 2020, 02:30 am
I've not been on Audiocircle in quite a while, but thought I might chime in as I have what may be the only pair of BOW's with double 12's in each cabinet. They are fantastic subwoofers, especially with Daedlaus speakers. I drove them for a while with a Bryston 4B and a modified Behringer 2496, but now using a pair of Dayton SPA 1000's and while not necessarily audiophile approved, they are fantastic sub amps and have quite a bit of adjustability built in to them.

Do you have pics?

No need to apologize about the Dayton SPA 1000. It's far superior to 99% of subwoofer plate amps on the market. I have its little brother.   
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: figcon on 10 Dec 2020, 01:27 pm
A this moment, I'm not sure how to download pictures, but will work on it. They are Maple, as are my Ulysses V2. 
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: advanced101 on 10 Dec 2020, 01:35 pm
Right below the comment box, there is an "Upload and insert an image".
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: vinyl_lady on 10 Dec 2020, 03:27 pm
Frank,

great to hear from you after a long pause. do your double 12 BOWs fire front and back?

I'm using a Bryston 4BST to drive my BOWs. I may have to give the Dayton a try.

Best,

Laura
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: figcon on 10 Dec 2020, 04:35 pm
Hi Laura.
Good to hear from you. As you can see in the pictures, the two 12" drivers are both on the front and the Aperiodic vent is on the bottom rear panel of the subs. The Dayton amps sit behind each sub. Lou built these for me a several years ago and I can't imagine listening to music without them.
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: figcon on 10 Dec 2020, 04:44 pm
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218103)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218104)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218105)



Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: figcon on 10 Dec 2020, 04:46 pm
Pictures are large and not very sharp, but you all can get the idea!!
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: Early B. on 10 Dec 2020, 05:08 pm
That's an extraordinary setup!! Those subs and speakers are gorgeous.

OK, so now I got more questions: 

-- what are the dimensions of your room?
-- what gear are you running? Are those tube monoblocks?
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: figcon on 10 Dec 2020, 05:33 pm
The room is 18' x 23' with the ceiling height at 9 ft. behind me and 8.5' in the front of the room. Sort of like they do in concert halls. I've minimized 90 angles, so not much in the way of bass problems in the room and the room is on a slab.

Right now, the set up I'm using is a T+A MP2500R, Well Tempered Amadeus GTA, Dynavector Karat DX and a Luxman AX 590 II. Phono amp is waiting for a T+A PA3100HV, which will arrive and take the place of the Luxman and will have a built in phono circuit for the Dynavector. Waiting in the wings are my tube favorites, a Rogue RP7 and Rogue Apollo Dark monoblocks.

Lou has been here and knows the room, although components, except for the Rogue stuff might have changed. 

By the way, I'm a very small, home based dealer for WTL, Dynavector Rogue, T+A and Luxman, but not trying to sell anything here, as obviously this is Lou's thread and he sells direct. Still, I like the speakers so much, nothing has replaced them and that's a pretty good compliment to pay him.
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: advanced101 on 10 Dec 2020, 05:38 pm
Very nice. Dual driver subs are in the back of my mind  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: rbbert on 10 Dec 2020, 06:27 pm
Very nice!
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: jriggy on 11 Dec 2020, 02:29 pm
The room is 18' x 23' with the ceiling height at 9 ft. behind me and 8.5' in the front of the room. Sort of like they do in concert halls. I've minimized 90 angles, so not much in the way of bass problems in the room and the room is on a slab.

Right now, the set up I'm using is a T+A MP2500R, Well Tempered Amadeus GTA, Dynavector Karat DX and a Luxman AX 590 II. Phono amp is waiting for a T+A PA3100HV, which will arrive and take the place of the Luxman and will have a built in phono circuit for the Dynavector. Waiting in the wings are my tube favorites, a Rogue RP7 and Rogue Apollo Dark monoblocks.

Lou has been here and knows the room, although components, except for the Rogue stuff might have changed. 

By the way, I'm a very small, home based dealer for WTL, Dynavector Rogue, T+A and Luxman, but not trying to sell anything here, as obviously this is Lou's thread and he sells direct. Still, I like the speakers so much, nothing has replaced them and that's a pretty good compliment to pay him.

Great to see Frank on here after all these years! I bought Frank’s first pair of Ulysses back in 2011, which lead me to later purchase a pair of Argos (for a better room fit) from Lou. I sold the Ulysses to audiotom, whom has gone on to purchase I think more than one other pair of Daedalus speakers from Lou. A testament to our interconnectedness and how the Daedalus family grows.

Jason
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: dodgealum on 4 Feb 2021, 07:13 pm
Hey folks--just circling back now that my system is set up in the new room (see pic!).
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=220492)

It was a revelation going from two similar medium/small room (13 X 17 X 8) to the new room (15 X 26 X 9 to 16) with the vaulted ceiling creating a much larger volume and the room length allowing for fuller, more integrated bass. Able to move the speakers out a bit further into the room (3 feet from rear baffle to the front wall) and with better (though not great) side clearance (2 feet) enlarged the soundstage considerably. Biggest change was in the bass where it got deeper, tighter, and more naturally integrated than in the other rooms. I'll be holding off on the subs for now given the performance I am getting. Lesson learned: There are no limits to the SQ available with Lou's designs. Adding better equipment in front of them or providing them a better room only adds to the Daedalus experience. I had great sound in modest rooms but things just got a lot more interesting!
Title: Re: Daedalus BOW
Post by: A_shah on 9 Feb 2021, 05:30 am
I'm sure Lou has his reasons but I'm sorry he no longer offers the BOW with dedicated X-over and amp.  Leaving that up to user seems to somewhat defeat his purpose in offering the BOW; using something like one of the REL subs and their high-level input (no high pass filter for the main speakers) is likely to have a better result in many (most) cases.  JMO.



 A pair of  REL S/812 with my quickSilver mono amps High level connection & Daedalus Speakers , has bought my listening levels to another Realm ! when I turn off the RELs I know I am missing something although I did not have the same experience with SVS or my HSU MK 15 11 which was really for my HT use but now rels serve both purposes . I was going to get the carbons but that would have been too much for my speakers S/812 & S/512 were suggested by REL.  :popcorn: