Woofer excursion and amplifiers

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charmerci

Woofer excursion and amplifiers
« on: 28 Sep 2019, 12:47 am »
I bought the SMSL SA-50 amp. Sounds very nice for the price. I'm impressed.


So my question -


Compared with my AVA Synergy amp, the woofer seems to go back and forth much more with the SA-50. So why is that?


Or is it just my imagination?

FullRangeMan

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Re: Woofer excursion and amplifiers
« Reply #1 on: 28 Sep 2019, 01:00 am »
Seems these amps have different damping factors what lead to different behavior on bass freq.

charmerci

Re: Woofer excursion and amplifiers
« Reply #2 on: 28 Sep 2019, 01:44 am »
Ok - so the SMSL has a much lower damping factor in the lower frequencies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-3rgu9Um7s

Thanks.
« Last Edit: 28 Sep 2019, 04:04 am by charmerci »

CurtisIIX

Re: Woofer excursion and amplifiers
« Reply #3 on: 28 Sep 2019, 03:01 am »
I would expect both amplifiers to have a sufficiently high damping factor that the difference in output would be negligible. After looking through a bunch of Stereophile measurements, I am seeing at most a 0.25 dB difference between typical Class-AB and Class D frequency responses due to load.

The SMSL SA-50 amp uses the TDA7492 chip. The datasheet does have the frequency response curve showing -0.5 dB down at 40 Hz and -2 dB down at 20 Hz. IIRC Frank's solid-state amplifier designs try to push the -3 dB point very low, like single Hz range. It seems more likely that the difference in excursion is related to the amplifier AC coupling at low frequencies.

If I knew more about speakers, I would attempt to calculate the difference in excursion for woofer when given a 0.5 dB difference in signal. Though I am sure it is not that easy without knowing specific driver characteristics and box/port loading of the speaker.

Cheers,
Curtis

richidoo

Re: Woofer excursion and amplifiers
« Reply #4 on: 28 Sep 2019, 03:27 am »
Like Curtis said, they're both transistor amps with feedback, so their source impedance is ballpark similar, both <0.1ohms, which will control the cone very well. That's why it sounds good. Damping = detail.

If you still have the Philharmonic speakers, they are ported so cone excursion near port tuning is very small, and the revelator woofer is very well damped mechanically, so it doesn't misbehave on it's own. There's not really much opportunity to see big difference in excursion no matter what amp. Maybe it was a different volume setting?

charmerci

Re: Woofer excursion and amplifiers
« Reply #5 on: 28 Sep 2019, 04:03 am »
I would expect both amplifiers to have a sufficiently high damping factor that the difference in output would be negligible. After looking through a bunch of Stereophile measurements, I am seeing at most a 0.25 dB difference between typical Class-AB and Class D frequency responses due to load.

The SMSL SA-50 amp uses the TDA7492 chip. The datasheet does have the frequency response curve showing -0.5 dB down at 40 Hz and -2 dB down at 20 Hz. IIRC Frank's solid-state amplifier designs try to push the -3 dB point very low, like single Hz range. It seems more likely that the difference in excursion is related to the amplifier AC coupling at low frequencies.

If I knew more about speakers, I would attempt to calculate the difference in excursion for woofer when given a 0.5 dB difference in signal. Though I am sure it is not that easy without knowing specific driver characteristics and box/port loading of the speaker.

Cheers,
Curtis
Richidoo is right, I have the New Phils. In fact, I have the very ones that Dennis measured for the website. It might very well be the high upswing at 70hz?

http://philharmonicaudio.com/New%20Philharmonitor.html

Speedskater

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Re: Woofer excursion and amplifiers
« Reply #6 on: 29 Sep 2019, 12:49 am »
Seems these amps have different damping factors what lead to different behavior on bass freq.
It would have to be a very large difference indeed to have any affect. (or on second thought maybe it's effect)

Speedskater

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Re: Woofer excursion and amplifiers
« Reply #7 on: 29 Sep 2019, 12:56 am »
And on third thought, it's not the size of the difference that matters. It;s that one of the amps would need to have a very low damping factor.
The number 10 comes to mind. Once it's above say 50, there are no differences to be had.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Woofer excursion and amplifiers
« Reply #8 on: 29 Sep 2019, 12:59 am »
It would have to be a very large difference indeed to have any affect. (or on second thought maybe it's effect)
The origin of the phenomenon has been explained by other members.

richidoo

Re: Woofer excursion and amplifiers
« Reply #9 on: 29 Sep 2019, 04:59 am »
It might very well be the high upswing at 70hz?

No, the port damps the cone very strongly at frequencies around the port tuning frequency, so you won't see much cone movement there...

...and both of these low-impedance SS amps will totally ignore the load impedance of the speaker, so those tall peaks around the port resonance won't affect FR at all.

But it's good practice to make the speaker load impedance flat and smooth as possible because that makes life easier for amps with higher source impedance (tube amps) which are more sensitive to load impedance, so that a flat FR can still be achieved no matter what amp. Not so common practice anymore, kudos to Philharmonic.

charmerci

Re: Woofer excursion and amplifiers
« Reply #10 on: 29 Sep 2019, 05:43 am »
No, the port damps the cone very strongly at frequencies around the port tuning frequency, so you won't see much cone movement there...

...and both of these low-impedance SS amps will totally ignore the load impedance of the speaker, so those tall peaks around the port resonance won't affect FR at all.

But it's good practice to make the speaker load impedance flat and smooth as possible because that makes life easier for amps with higher source impedance (tube amps) which are more sensitive to load impedance, so that a flat FR can still be achieved no matter what amp. Not so common practice anymore, kudos to Philharmonic.
Well, you seem to have eliminated any differences. I guess I'll have to bring the SMSL from work and check again to make sure there really is a difference.

Speedskater

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Re: Woofer excursion and amplifiers
« Reply #11 on: 30 Sep 2019, 03:57 pm »
The origin of the phenomenon has been explained by other members.
Audio consultant Dick Pierce wrote a very good explanation some 15 years ago.
"Damping Factor: Effects On System Response"
https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response