AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Power Conditioning => Topic started by: mca on 1 Oct 2004, 08:07 pm
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Has anyone had any experience with a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet? I am looking for something to run my Unico Integrated and Tjoeb CD player through. Right now they are plugged directly into the wall.
I don't have much to spend and hoping one of these would be better than nothing. I know they can be found for about $300 on Agon.
If these are bogus, what else could be found at that price or up to about $500? I once tried a BPT 2.5 in my theater room and it buzzed like a mother and I had to send it back, so I am a little leary of them.
Come to think of it, it would be nice to find something with four outlets to be able to plug my TV and satellite box into also.
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The PS Audio Ultimate Outlet is basically an isolation transformer with comprehensive EMI/RFI filtration. It is identical to the lower end products from OneAC and Powervar, which can be found all over eBay for under $100, and usually around $30, often with greater implementation, outlets, etc.
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Dmason,
Your description is incorrect. The UO is a based upon common mode choke (CMC). It is not comparable to the Powervar or OneAC products. The UO's performance is subustantially better (for audio puroposes) than the typical industrial CMC through some rather clever engineering and implementation. Its use of a specific formulation of an iron powder core (#26 formulation) as well as its flanking capacitors allows it to effectively deal with differential noise as well as common mode noise as typically handled by ferrite based industrial CMCs. Its a rather nice and effective product. The only product which is similar to the UO is the deZoral filtration prodiucts.
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I have the PS Audio Power Director 3.5 with 4 zones and 20 outlets. It's something like 4 UO equivalents. I'm glad Occam can defend it better than me. I feel safer using it and it works well!
biz
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Dmason,
Your description is incorrect. The UO is a based upon common mode choke (CMC). It is not comparable to the Powervar or OneAC products. The UO's performance is subustantially better (for audio puroposes) than the typical industrial CMC through some rather clever engineering and implementation. Its use of a specific formulation of an iron powder core (#26 formulation) as well as its flanking capacitors allows it to effectively deal with differential noise as well as common mode noise as typically h ...
Don't tell me you opened up your DeZorel filter as well? You seem to have, if you can discuss its topology.
Anyway, I did, I just couldn't take the suspense any more, and I do have several of them. So the oldest fell victim to ending my suspense. It has a very deceptively simple configuration, but I just hate to think of the maths behind it (I always hated math, exception being percentages).
Just seven components per filter is good, but what it does is really impressive. A pi cell, takes out BOTH differential and common mode noise, in effect just what is realistically required.
But it has two shortcomings. One is use of sintered materials; no matter which, no matter how good, they WILL change in time. If they are of good quality, they will change by becoming more compact, in turn yielding still better filtration. Anyone owning a filter like that will be happy to know that in 2-3 years' time, his filter will be say 2-3 dB better than when new. But if the sintered material is not that good, .... and most low cost are not ....
The second is the need to have all wound bodies in as close a tolerance as possible. The tighter the tolerance, the better the performance. And I'm not sure machines can be used to wind insulated wire around sintered toroids - but I could be wrong, I'm not familiar with such production techniques.
The one I opened up is now about 4 years old, so it's possible the new models may have had some modifications applied.
Cheers,
DVV
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Might want to check into these:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=8270&highlight=bolder
They are still available.
I almost bought one, but decided to have my Monster power strip modded instead.
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MCA,
You didn't describe the specific components you intend to 'condition'.
The filtration and overall efficacy of any power conditioning component often is dependant upon the current draw of the 'fed' components. The Jon Risch type filtered conditioner referenced above, might well be quite effective for source components, but might well be problematic if driving a power/integrated amp. The result is often described as 'constipated', i.e. constrained dynamics. It would depend on the specific inductors used as well as the current requirements.
With regards to that buzzing transformer in the BPT product, the problem might lie with DC imposed on your AC mains line. This issue is addressed in this thread -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=12706
Using a toroid transformer as an isolation/balancing transformer strikes me as somewhat oounterproductive (aside from cost/size constraints) as they have a rather wide bandwidth, something you don't want in a power transformer running at 50/60hz.
DVV,
I've never had access to a deZoral. My comment was based upon published descriptions (lack of ground involvement, desiribility of inductor 'balance',...) and attenuation characteristics; an 'edumicated' guess. Please note I said the UO and the deZoral were comparable, not equivalent....
The #26 cores produced by Amidon or Micrometals are quite good (I'd prefer #52 formulatiion, which sadly is not twice as good. :))
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Occam,
As noted in my first post, the components are a Unison Research Unico integrated and an Ah Tjoeb 4000 CD player.
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DVV,
I've never had access to a deZoral. My comment was based upon published descriptions (lack of ground involvement, desiribility of inductor 'balance',...) and attenuation characteristics; an 'edumicated' guess. Please note I said the UO and the deZoral were comparable, not equivalent....
The #26 cores produced by Amidon or Micrometals are quite good (I'd prefer #52 formulatiion, which sadly is not twice as good. )
In which case, I am most pleased to inform you that your "edumicated" guess was in fact completely right. Very well done!
I on the other hand have never seen a UO, much less opened it up. Yet I wouldn't be surprised if they were made on the very same basis, with the usual petty differences which different designers will always bring in. In other words, I wouldn't be surprised if comparable stretched out to say 95%+ of equivalency (at least, electrically speaking).
By the look of the contents, I'd guess that the rings were from either Siemens, or Iskra, a Slovenian manufacturer which has for 30 years or more always managed to have better sintered rings than the big, BIG Siemens. On a scale of 1-10, I'd rate Siemens as 8 and Iskra as 9. But I haven't played with those things for years, so it's possible my data is, er, outdated.
Cheers,
DVV
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MCA,
Sorry, obviously, my reading retention isn't very good..... While the UR amp isn't a monster current draw, the use of a Jon Risch type filter with your amp might have that previously mentioned problem.
DVV,
Many thanks for the complement. My ego needed that boost as my recent 'edumicated' guess as to PS Audio's 'gain cell' topology was totally off base. Marketers and reviewers face that inevitable problem in trying to describe the features and functionality of a given product, while not disclosing too much. For me, its always an interesting execise to attempt to suss out the underlying architecture ( or rather, it may be a comment on the existential emptiness of my life... :? )
A few years ago, after reverse engineering the UO, I actually built one from scratch. If one thinks that commercial products are too expensive, I can only suggest you try and wind 10ga soliid core wire around a 3" toroid, and you'll realize there is a world of difference between an academic understanding and practical implementation.
For readers interested in a deeper understanding of the requirements of and sound engineering improvements to our power supplies, I highly reccomentd DVV's website -
http://www.zero-distortion.com/start.htm
specifically his article 'Designing your own power supply"
Regards,
Occam
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...For me, its always an interesting execise to attempt to suss out the underlying architecture ( or rather, it may be a comment on the existential emptiness of my life... )
Oh come now, surely it's a matter of time before you realize what it is that fills you with joy. For me, several things: my family, my son in particular, a few good projects I managed to do, that one loudspeaker I ever actively participated in developing (which I'm listening to at the moment), my mean ol' Yugo project (or: How To Turn An Inconspicuous Yugo Into A Mean Machine, Nicknamed "Pure Adrenaline"), and so forth.
I hope you are not waiting for something big - big hardly ever happens, life is a string of small things and events.
As for squeezing info out of ads, well, that's an art I have worked much on myself, and do generally good. Of course, sometimes I really fly off the handle, other times I hit it spot on, but usually somewhere in between. It's fun, putting together a jigsaw puzzle.
A few years ago, after reverse engineering the UO, I actually built one from scratch. If one thinks that commercial products are too expensive, I can only suggest you try and wind 10ga soliid core wire around a 3" toroid, and you'll realize there is a world of difference between an academic understanding and practical implementation.
Completely agreed. It's well documented I have no mercy towards manufacturers and dealers, but your point is a very true one. It's always easy to go into splendid isolation and pass judgement on others, but when you have to roll up the sleeves and do it yourself, it then becomes a different matter.
Totally arbitrarily, I take the liberty of passing some judgement only because I have a cupboard full of working projects. Not all are good, of course, but some of them really are.
Cheers,
DVV
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So I think through all that I got a suggestion to try a Jon Risch power filter?
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So I think through all that I got a suggestion to try a Jon Risch power filter?
That isn't what I got from this at all. Many you should re-read a bit. If anything the Jon Risch filter was cautioned and the UO tauted.
Guys, would the UO limit dynamics in anyway, or as Occam put it, make it constipated? Can it work for amps as well?
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Most of the"constipated" comments I heard were with the use of the PS Audio power regenerators. I never heard constrictive sound reports about the ultimate outlets. The only problem with my Power Director 3.5 is that it is silver. So one day my wife walked into my room and said, a finger pointing to the PD 3.5, "is that new?" Apparently, as long as it is black, it flies under her radar. Actually, last time she noticed a silver component, it was the Tosh 3950 and I proudly told her it was 50 bucks (which it was).
I think the PD 3.5 comes in black. I like it.
biz
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Haha....same here. If it is black is flies low, if it is silver I have some 'splaining to do. :lol: Little does she know that the silver ones are far cheaper than all the black ones in my rack.
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So I think through all that I got a suggestion to try a Jon Risch power filter?
Try it - yes, buy it without trying - no.
The problem with line filters in general is that they have to deal with many things at once, and some of them are contradictory. It has to cut common mode noise, differential noise, surpress nasty peaks which can easily hit 500 volts and opver here in Europe, where 220-230 VAC is standard, 900 volt peaks can easily be observed on any decent oscilloscope. Furthermore, ideally that filter would not introduce phase shifts, obligatory with any filter, and would not limit the current at all right up to its nominal operating limit. It's almost as if you were asking it to act as a digital brickwall filter.
In practical terms, satisfaying all this is downright impossible on an equitable basis. Whis is another way of saying compromises have to be made, no matter what kind of dough we talk about, 2, 3, 4 or 5 digit numbers.
In real world terms, every designer has his own view of how it should be done, and will therefore make his own set of compromises. While I have plainly stated here and elsewhere that DeZorel makes the best line filters I have ever heard, don't think for a moment that they too have not made their own set of compromises. Price is just the most obvious one, but they are there technically as well. Also, there are quite a few I have not heard.
Put it together and what I'm really saying that you should try as many power line filters as you can. This will gain you valuable experience, and will train your ears to appreciate their effects, or the lack of them, much better. Then you can make up your own mind which is the best power line filter for you.
How else? A power line filter interacts with the rest of the system very directly; who among us can positively know how any filter will behave in your system? All we can do is to relate our own experineces, which are related to our own systems.
There is no clear cut answer - there never was.
Cheers,
DVV
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Haha....same here. If it is black is flies low, if it is silver I have some 'splaining to do. :lol: Little does she know that the silver ones are far cheaper than all the black ones in my rack.
A slick lawyer could define that as maritial infidelity - watch out, Josh, alimonies are no peanuts money. :-))))
Cheers,
DVV
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Well, after doing some looking I'm down to a couple of things I would like to try out. The first is a Powervar ABC-1200-11 to try out. I would like to try my hand at modding it with new outlets, wire, bypassing the power switch, some ERS and maybe even a Bybee or two thrown in for good luck.
I would also be intereted to try out the new PS Audio UPC-200. IT should be able to cover my stereo system as well as my TV and satellite box.
I guess if anything, the Powervar would be fun to try my hand at modding. If it works as good as some say, it would be a nice way to save some bucks :D
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Well, after doing some looking I'm down to a couple of things I would like to try out. The first is a Powervar ABC-1200-11 to try out. I would like to try my hand at modding it with new outlets, wire, bypassing the power switch, some ERS and maybe even a Bybee or two thrown in for good luck.
I would also be intereted to try out the new PS Audio UPC-200. IT should be able to cover my stereo system as well as my TV and satellite box.
I guess if anything, the Powervar would be fun to try my hand at modding. If it works as good as some say, it would be a nice way to save some bucks :D
Don't waste your time & money on a PowerVar, dude...
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Doing a search on the PowerVar brings up a lot of positive comments, just wondering as to why you think they are a waste?
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Doing a search on the PowerVar brings up a lot of positive comments, just wondering as to why you think they are a waste?
When Francisco says its a waste of time, I'd believe him ... but then, I do know him a bit better than most here.
That notwithstanding, the problem with a lot of positive feedback is not in the feedback, but in who it comes from. Let's face it, most people have very little experience with power line filters, and then many have unwittingly used the same general type of filter. Therefore, their comparison basis is limited. Not many can dedicate their time and efforts to researching that.
As a general comment, filters based on transformers, no matter which type and how they are made, must by default insert the transformer core signature to the outgoing power. How can this be any different from classic audio? Laws of physics apply just the same.
Transformers, ALL transformers, tend to be sluggish, their response is always damped by the properties of the materials they are made from. In part, this can be overcome by using oversize transformers, but only in part, mind.
Sintered materials, i.e. those made of compressed powder, also have their own properties, but these are by and large an order of magnitude above classic transformers. In other words, you start out with a much better platform and then build on that. They are more compact and will take on MUCH more power (assuming they are well dimensioned) than any equivalent classic transformer. They are smaller and easier to work with in terms of required space, but to the best of my knowledge, cannot be turned into filters any other way but by hand. This makes them more expensive overall, even if they are more efficient overall.
Industry, any industry, will always prefer the easier to implement solution. Anything made in series by machines will always be preferred to than something you have to hire qualified people for. Hence the proliferation of power transformers in line filters - ultimately, they are the cheapest and easisest to implement.
Like it or not, but by and large, we end with economics as the bottom line.
Cheers,
DVV
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I'm not doubting his advice, I just would like more info than "don't waste your time on this"
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Sintered materials, i.e. those made of compressed powder, also have their own properties, but these are by and large an order of magnitude above classic transformers.
Ok, so who makes power line filters based on this technology?
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The Ultimate Outlet is a Recommended Component in Stereophile current issue. Maybe there's sound coloration, maybe not, but the UO doesn't regenerate power and protects from surges, etc. Maybe not a "no-brainer," but definitely not necessarily bad either (enough double negatives for everyone?). Plus, it's not the most expensive component out there...
Bet you'd like it.
biz
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Oh yeah, and audioasylum has a PS Audio forum; you can take the info gleaned from AudioCircle, formulate your questions and bounce them off Paul in a public "outlet" (no pun intended).
biz
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I'm not doubting his advice, I just would like more info than "don't waste your time on this"
It's much better to use "C-core" transformers. The Xentek Extreme transformers have a (-146 dB ) noise reduction floor. That's really good. Couple one of those and the Auricaps parallel filters VenHaus sells, along with a DIY power box with cryo'ed outlets (and gold plated for digital) and you'll be much better off.
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Sintered materials, i.e. those made of compressed powder, also have their own properties, but these are by and large an order of magnitude above classic transformers.
Ok, so who makes power line filters based on this technology?
My DeZorels are based on that technology, or their take of it. High quality, professional Siemens filters are based on it, and there are sure to be others, even if I don't know who. It's not a patented technology or anything, it's been around for like 60 years.
Somebody else was mentioned here a few messages ago.
Cheers,
DVV
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The Ultimate Outlet is a Recommended Component in Stereophile current issue. Maybe there's sound coloration, maybe not, but the UO doesn't regenerate power and protects from surges, etc. Maybe not a "no-brainer," but definitely not necessarily bad either (enough double negatives for everyone?). Plus, it's not the most expensive component out there...
Bet you'd like it.
biz
Just a comment here. Paul McGowan's idea of regenerating power is a very good one, in my view. The only problem is the cost, because if it's to work really well, it will have to cost a whopper. For a start, he'd have to use a high quality CPU and it would probably be a good idea to interpolate, though this would depend on his platform.
Then, his power amp boosting it all would have to be a realy powerful thing, which will by defult cost a lot of money.
But if you can stomach a hefty bill, well into 5 figures, what you'd end up with is a really great source of truly clean power.
From what I saw of his products in this department say a year and a half ago reminded me of Bob Carver's Phase Linear days. PL offered tremendously powerful amps for the money, and showed pictures of arrays of power devices. What they DIDN'T show was that Bob ran like a 250W amp from a pair of 6,800uF caps.
So, when that amp saw not 8 but 7 ohms, it started to whither, and by 5 ohms, it was really depressed.
That's where I think Paul tripped. He had the idea, he worked it out, but his power section was below par. Of course he knew how to get it up to top notch, but then his products would not cost $3.5K, but $13.5K.
It's a sad fact people these days look incomparably more at how something looks than what is under the bonnet. Form takes total precedence over substance.
Cheers,
DVV
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DVV,
I'm not an expert, just a consumer (and a good one at that). So is the UO a good idea or a bad idea?
biz
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DVV,
I'm not an expert, just a consumer (and a good one at that). So is the UO a good idea or a bad idea?
biz
I'll answer the question with the same exact question Dejan would ask:
What are the UO's specifications?
The Xentek has (-146 dB), the newer ones (-160 dB), ten times as quiet!!!
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For Source equipment the PS Audio Power Plants are very good.
For low powered amps they are good.
For high current amps they suck.
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DVV,
I'm not an expert, just a consumer (and a good one at that). So is the UO a good idea or a bad idea?
biz
Francisco said it - what are its specs?
I always ask this not because I think the specs can tell me how it sounds, but because I want to see how serious they are. Any serious manufacturer will always publish at least some specs; if none are available, and letters from extatic customers don't count, I'd bypass those people, whoever they are.
Specifically, I can't say if it's a good idea or not because I haven't used that product, I have zero experience with it. Consequently, I cannot comment.
But try without buy is a good idea, you gain experience that way.
Cheers,
DVV
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Relative advantages aside, I've found both transformer based (balanced power) and sinstered-type power conditioners to have a very noticeable positive impact on my system. I would have initially preferred to get a sinstered-type pc due to its near-unlimited power handling (and spectacular specs) except that one that I was demo-ing failed on me (I was told a capacitor went bad). That tipped the balance towards a Blue Circle Music Ring for me. Since my amp is digital and uses relatively little power, I can run my entire system off the Music Ring, which is rated to 1200 watts.
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I'll answer the question with the same exact question Dejan would ask:
What are the UO's specifications?
The Xentek has (-146 dB), the newer ones (-160 dB), ten times as quiet!!!
Francisco, let's not forget there are other issues here as well. Does it work on both differential and common mode noise? What are its phase issues like (any filter WILL introduce phase shift, the only question is how much)? What is its power handiling, and its filtering curve at different power levels?
I have seen prescious little specs along these lines from manufacturers, and answers to above questions can tell you quite a bit.
As a general example only, take balanced transformers. They will have good to very good filtering in the 20...20,000 Hz range, but will start to drop sharply above 20 kHz. To the best of my knowledge, there are serious noise issues in the 10-80 kHz range, so their dropping off at high frequencies bodes ill for intermodulation cause by higher order forms of noise. I'm not saying they are bad, but they have their own set of compromises which I am not in favor of.
Ideally, a line filter should continue to filter to above 1 MHz, preferably up to 10 MHz (MOST hard to achieve!). Obviously, none can be good at both low and high frequencies, they have to give somewhere. In my view, pi cell filters, such as used by DeZorel, Siemens and others, despite being expensive by default, offer the best set of compromises all around. They start filtering at about 2 kHz and keep going up to about 350 kHz, where the filter has a slight "comeback" effect (a drop in filtering), above which they continue to filter well into the MHz range.
Cheers,
DVV
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For Source equipment the PS Audio Power Plants are very good.
For low powered amps they are good.
For high current amps they suck.
In other words, for lower power levels, it's good, for higher power levels, it sucks.
Testimony of an insufficiently powerful output stage; it can't cope with high power demands.
As I said, there is no doubt in my mind that Paul McGowan could have made a model which would not suffer from this shortcoming, but it would have cost obviously more than he was willing to stick his neck out for.
Still, a great idea.
Cheers,
DVV
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Relative advantages aside, I've found both transformer based (balanced power) and sinstered-type power conditioners to have a very noticeable positive impact on my system.
Of course, Josh. Line hash is a far bigger problem than most people are even aware of. Any filter you insert which half does its job will make a difference, proof enough that line hash is a major problem.
Hence DVV's Law 1: good sound starts from the wall outlet. :lol:
I would have initially preferred to get a sinstered-type pc due to its near-unlimited power handling (and spectacular specs) except that one that I was demo-ing failed on me (I was told a capacitor went bad). ...
Not to nitpick, but Josh, NOTHING is even close to "near-unlimited". Sintered materials will go into saturation just as classic transformers will. The differences are that sintered materials will take more abuse on a unit per unit basis than classic transformers before they start to go nuts, and then when they do, they will do so somewhat (depending on type and material quality) more gently than classic transformers, such as E and C cores.
As a very general example, a say 300 VA transformer will begin to saturate at say 330-400 VA, depending on core quality and wiring. By 400 VA, it will be distorting very badly, and by say 440 VA, it will give up the ghost. Same power rating sintered material will start to saturate at say 400 VA, by 600 VA it will be distorting but still delivering, and by 1,000 VA it will start to go funny on you.
This is the very simplified explanation why sintered material filters hardly ever sound constrained or "constipated". Their dynamic range to absolute saturation limits is at least 2-3 times that of classic transformers, despite the fact that they too will be distorting.
Much like in an amplifier, even the worst of distortion is far preferable to even the mildest of clipping. God forbid hard and abrupt clipping.
That tipped the balance towards a Blue Circle Music Ring for me. Since my amp is digital and uses relatively little power, I can run my entire system off the Music Ring, which is rated to 1200 watts.
I know everybody's a general after the battle, but I think you gave up a little too easily.
Last but not least, there's the problem of isolation. A single filter, of any type, will stop hash from getting in, but will do nothing about crosstalk AFTER the filter, among the system components.
That's why I prefer a distributed filter function, meaning having several parallel sections of lower rating. This effectively isolates components, killing crosstalk as well as line hash. Since each filter feeds just one component, it would be quite sufficient to have two high power outputs for power amps, but the remaining say four could just as well be rated at say 200 VA each, and even that's an overkill.
Thought food.
Cheers,
DVV
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That's why I prefer a distributed filter function, meaning having several parallel sections of lower rating. This effectively isolates components, killing crosstalk as well as line hash. Since each filter feeds just one component, it would be quite sufficient to have two high power outputs for power amps, but the remaining say four could just as well be rated at say 200 VA each, and even that's an overkill.
Dejan,
Where did you find the time to write all these posts? :roll:
My approach to filtration is a combination of everything you said--and then some. That's why it works so well. I use a 220V/110V stepdown 3KW ONEAC with "virtual ground" which is great for high frequency noise & isolating the ground, followed by the Clear Image T4 which has custom made toroids for dealing with noise in the audio band (plus custom made EMI modules). The T4 uses balanced filtration (hot and neutral) for each individual line component and the entire chassis is made of copper. I also use Bybees and Highwire Wirewraps. Proper filtration must be addressed in this way before one can start evaluating audio components--period. Otherwise it's a 'chasing your own tail' ordeal. Giving up early will lead to bad component choices, wasted money and frustration.
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Dejan,
Where did you find the time to write all these posts? :roll:
I type real fast. So would you, after publishing over 300 texts in magazines, one book, three seasons of TV script, two seasons of radio, etc, etc. My problem is when I have to sign something - my handwriting is all but gone. I forgot.
My approach to filtration is a combination of everything you said--and then some. That's why it works so well. I use a 220V/110V stepdown 3KW ONEAC with "virtual ground" which is great for high frequency noise & isolating the ground, followed by the Clear Image T4 which has custom made toroids for dealing with noise in the audio band (plus custom made EMI modules). The T4 uses balanced filtration (hot and neutral) for each individ ...
Throw in a panzer division, and I'll buy it. :lol: Where do you insert Heinz Tartar Sauce? :mrgreen:
Francisco, compadre, please read your own text - it almost seems like your audio comes as an afterthought to killing any and all noise. Also, and I could be worng here, it doesn't sound ellegant and simple at all, quite to the contrary.
Say, how about a pic or two? Just to give us an idea how all that looks put together.
Cheers,
DVV
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Fransisco,
Any idea how the old Elgar conditioners would compare spec-wise with the other gear being discussed here? The fan noise was so unbearable I disabled mine, so now it overheats easily, but still works quite well with my front projector.
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Hi Dejan, I was quite frustrated with my search for a power conditioner that would work well in my place without failing (e.g. blown capacitor, power cord failure, etc) or tripping the RCD in my circuit box. Since Gilbert @ Blue Circle was quite familiar with UK/HK wiring standards, I felt most comfortable buying his balanced power supply. From memory, both the DeZorel and Blue Circle improved the sound of my system in similar ways... if I had a current hungry amp (which I don't) I would have probably persisted longer. My friend Guan has an AR Senior so I know they are very good power conditioners.
Francisco, I totally agree with you the good power is a great foundation for an audio system. And, people do need to give it more attention. What is noteworthy of your approach is that you've been able to use cost-effective solutions like the OneAC transformers.
That said, Dejan's point underscores the importance of a reference system. Unless you have very good components (with no obvious weaknesses) which synergize well (the whole is greater than the sum of the parts) then making changes is still quite fraught with risk in spite of having clean power. My system took a big step back when I switched to using an old Toshiba dvd player as a transport (I used to use a Cary 303 cdp) but if I didn't realize my dvd player were the weak link I may make other component changes (a pre, an amp, cables, etc) to "cover up" the sins of the transport. The Tosh gets fed bybee-filtered balanced power through a very nice power cord. I've heavily damped the transport mechanism and clock crystal. My digital cable has a bybee in it as well. My dac is a non-oversampling Scott Nixon Tube Dac which, between being non-OS and have a tube output, should make the effects of jitter less noticeable. In spite of all that, I need a better transport.
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Hi Dejan, I was quite frustrated with my search for a power conditioner that would work well in my place without failing (e.g. blown capacitor, power cord failure, etc) or tripping the RCD in my circuit box. Since Gilbert @ Blue Circle was quite familiar with UK/HK wiring standards, I felt most comfortable buying his balanced power supply. From memory, both the DeZorel and Blue Circle improved the sound of my system in similar ways... if I had a current hungry amp (which I don't) I would have probably per ...
Essentially, it's a game of elimination. You eliminate problems which have been definitely pinpointed. To be able to judge your system critically, you need to eliminate the problems coming from the outside and effecting your system - hence the power line filter.
So, you start from the filter, not end up with it. Once you have decided a line filter is good, buy it or make it, then start sifting through your components.
Of course, this is, realistically speaking, a theoretical model, because we all have tons of the stuff already before we get to the filter. So, we must accept the risk that the filter will show up shortcomings elsewhere, in the transport, in your case.
Oh well, the quest continues ...
Cheers,
DVV
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Throw in a panzer division, and I'll buy it. :lol: Where do you insert Heinz Tartar Sauce? :mrgreen:
Francisco, compadre, please read your own text - it almost seems like your audio comes as an afterthought to killing any and all noise. Also, and I could be worng here, it doesn't sound ellegant and simple at all, quite to the contrary.
Say, how about a pic or two? Just to give us an idea how all that looks put together.
Cheers,
DVV
I don't have any pictures, but the setup is pretty straightforward. The T4 filters are compact for their weight (60-65 lbs) and all that is lying around is the AudioPower parallel filter, which happens to have a volt meter. What I paid for the setup is truly a steal. In the future I plan to add a second isolation transformer--A 2.4 KW Xentek Extreme I got in eBay for $29.95 USD + shipping ($78 total). I can't complain.
Maybe in the future I'll have Mr. Hyde build me a custom DeZorel brick for installation at the panel level... :rotflmao:
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Fransisco,
Any idea how the old Elgar conditioners would compare spec-wise with the other gear being discussed here? The fan noise was so unbearable I disabled mine, so now it overheats easily, but still works quite well with my front projector.
If I remember well the 6006 has noise reduction specs of (-70 dB), plus the regenerating feature. It's a bad idea to disable the fan. :nono: With some careful research you should be able to find a quieter fan. Did you install a cryo'ed outlet? I did--plus cleaned all the internal contacts. That made a HUGE difference in performance.
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In spite of all that, I need a better transport.
Transport performance is sooo much critical than DAC, in my experience... :o I recently had an Audio Logic tube DAC and my $349 Channel Islands DAC (with wall wart transformer) was 90% of the $4800 AL's performance. So be it. :oops:
From AIWA changer to belt drive to modded belt drive the system's performance changed so much it's not funny. A proper power delivery/noise control rig is the foundation to make sound decisions.
Yes Jay, kick ass power delivery/noise control can be done relatively inexpensively. I paid $100 for my 95 lb, 3 KW ONEAC, $78 for my 2.4 Xentek and you don't want to know how much I paid for the T4's. One was $xxx in eBay. The Audio Power parallel filter was $24.50 plus shipping. So Dejan, whatever clutter present is more than bearable given the ridiculous low price of my power rig.
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It's a bad idea to disable the fan. :nono: With some careful research you should be able to find a quieter fan. Did you install a cryo'e ...
It's not possible to remove the old fan without disassembling half the unit, i.e. removing the rails that form the forced air tunnel, the transformer, heat sink, and a bunch of other stuff that's bolted to the chassi. That was my original plan but it got a lot more difficult than I expected. Plus the fan doens't have any specs that I can find either. I've heard of other people installing a thermostat to run the fan and that's probably the way to go, but it's over my head.
You think a cryoed outlet would make a visible improvement in my picture? I guess it wouldn't cost too much to try.
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It's not possible to remove the old fan without disassembling half the unit,
It's OK to have the unit far away & devise some sort of box w/ cheap acoustic foam
http://www.foambymail.com
You think a cryoed outlet would make a visible improvement in my picture?
BIG TIME
Clean the contacts inside!!!!! THere's two plugs w/ about 10-12 contacts. It's a bitch to clean, but these are surplus units that have never been cleaned. Once you do that and the outlet you're going to fall on your ass...