Bryston Demo Systems

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James Tanner

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Bryston Demo Systems
« on: 9 Aug 2007, 10:09 am »
HI All,

Thought you may be interested in the following comments from Jim Hayward.

Jim Hayward is an Electronic Technologist who has written many articles and reviews for numerous magazines on a variety of topics, an active executive member of the AES and a classical piano player. He was heavily involved in organizing the concert and recording of the Glenn Gould 1955 Goldberg Variations Re-Performance at CBC’s Glenn Gould Studio on September 25, 2006.   The recording has received numerous accolades including Class A ratings in Absolute Sound and Stereophile.

Knowing him as an avid audiophile, I invited him to my home to listen to the three Bryston demo systems that I setup.


“Dear James,
 
Thanks for making my recent visit to your listening rooms such a treat.  After some reflection, I offer the following comments. 
 
For too many years I've witnessed questionable equipment arrangements that resulted in bad sound.  I'd almost forgotten how enjoyable listening can be when thoughtfully prepared state-of-the-art equipment is carefully mated with a good listening room.  Thank you for taking the time to put together such impressive demo systems.  I couldn't help being pulled into the musical performances and forgetting about analyzing the system behaviour.  You certainly put the fun back into listening. 

Although all of the systems (Quad 2905, Magnepan MG 3.6/R and PMC IB2 active) have their strengths, I must state my preference for the PMC system.  No doubt my selection is influenced by personal bias as my reference still is the Bryston/PMC MB-1 active system.

The imaging was amazingly life like with excellent depth of field, lateral image extension and stability.  The dynamic range was excellent and the perceived sound colouration very low.  I expected to find the IB2 a little light in the bass as I'm so used to my MB1s. But not so!  It may not have the same bass extension as the MB-1 but in practice you would never know it.  The bass was more than adequate for real music reproduction and perhaps more importantly the colouration seemed very low.  Without a doubt it is one of the best sounding stereo systems I have heard regardless of price.

The Quad 2905 system was very easy to listen to.  Compared to previous Quad models I’ve auditioned, the 2905s show significantly more dynamic range and peak power handling capability.  It’s nice to see that these improvements haven’t come at the expense of their traditional strengths of detailed presentation, solid image and low distortion.

The Magnepan MG 3.6/R system also has made significant strides in performance improvements.  Perceived distortion is lower as diaphragm colouration levels have been significantly reduced from earlier models.  Also, the distribution of sound seemed quite uniform and treble beaming was noticeably absent.

It’s reassuring to see that manufacturer’s such as these are making continued efforts to improve and refine their products.
 
In closing, I want to say how impressed I was with the new BCD-1 player.  It is proof positive that CD quality is much better than I ever thought it was.  It just takes an outstanding player to reveal it.  I am packing in my outboard DAC and outboard jitter reduction equipment and ordering the BCD-1.


Best regards,
James H.”

BMU (Bryston Maggie User)

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Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #1 on: 12 Aug 2007, 03:16 pm »
Hi James

Could you tell us specifically which components were in each of your systems?  And maybe something of the room dimesions?

I am particularly interested in what was used with your Maggie 3.6's.  (eg. single amp, bi-wire, passive bi-amp, active bi-amp how much power etc.)  You probably used your BP26 preamp but I curiously if you have used the BP6 or BP16 or your other integrateds.

Now that we've moved I'm finding that the larger room has a huge (positive) impact on how my Maggie 1.6 QR's sound.  I'm reevaluating what I may need to optimize my system.

Thanks
Alex


James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #2 on: 12 Aug 2007, 04:21 pm »
Hi James

Could you tell us specifically which components were in each of your systems?  And maybe something of the room dimesions?

I am particularly interested in what was used with your Maggie 3.6's.  (eg. single amp, bi-wire, passive bi-amp, active bi-amp how much power etc.)  You probably used your BP26 preamp but I curiously if you have used the BP6 or BP16 or your other integrateds.

Now that we've moved I'm finding that the larger room has a huge (positive) impact on how my Maggie 1.6 QR's sound.  I'm reevaluating what I may need to optimize my system.

Thanks
Alex




Hi Alex,

Sure.
I kept all the front ends the same(for continuity):

Bryston BDC-1 CD Player (using xlr balanced outputs)
Bryston BP26/MPS2 preamplifier(using balanced XLR ins)
Bryston Interconnects and Speaker cable and connectors.
All amplifiers located close to the speakers.


PMC IB2 Active system:
Room size 16x23x8. Speakers 10 feet apart 4 feet from the front wall and seating 10 feet away.
Bryston/PMC Electronic crossover x 2
7B SST x 2 on bass drivers
4B SST x 2 on Mids and Tweeters
Torus 60 amp Powerline Conditioner
Tri-wired speaker cables

Quad 2905 System:
Room size 14x11x8. Speakers on the long wall 2.5 feet from the back wall and 8 feet apart. Listening position 8 feet from the speakers - couch back against the side wall.
Bryston 2B SST
Torus 20 amp Powline Conditioner
Single wire speaker cables

Magnepan MG 3.6 system:
Room size 14 x 30 x 8 - using 1/2 of the room at one end so there is lots of space behind the listening position. Speakers are 9 feet apart -tweeters to the outside and angled in - seating is 9 feet away and speakers are 3 feet from the back wall.
Bryston 14B SST
Torus 20 amp Power Conditioner
Bi-wired

I have used all speakers in all rooms during my experiments as well as a number of different amplifiers.
« Last Edit: 8 Jun 2008, 09:31 pm by James Tanner »

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #3 on: 12 Aug 2007, 09:58 pm »
Hi Alex,

I have also experimented in the bigger room with the MG3.6's.
Tried Active bi-amping using a 10B electronic crossover and 2-14B's.
So if you have any questions let me know.

james


vegasdave

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Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #4 on: 14 Aug 2007, 09:03 am »
Have you tried the 28BSST on the PMCs?

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #5 on: 14 Aug 2007, 11:05 am »
Have you tried the 28BSST on the PMCs?

Only full-range not as part of a tri-amp setup.

james

« Last Edit: 14 Aug 2007, 12:08 pm by James Tanner »

Crimson

Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #6 on: 14 Aug 2007, 12:20 pm »
I have also experimented in the bigger room with the MG3.6's.
Tried Active bi-amping using a 10B electronic crossover and 2-14B's.
So if you have any questions let me know.

James,

Your impressions of the biamped setup would be appreciated. I'm assuming you prefer the single amp - biwire setup as that is what you currently have on demo.

Thanks.

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #7 on: 14 Aug 2007, 12:29 pm »
I have also experimented in the bigger room with the MG3.6's.
Tried Active bi-amping using a 10B electronic crossover and 2-14B's.
So if you have any questions let me know.

James,

Your impressions of the biamped setup would be appreciated. I'm assuming you prefer the single amp - biwire setup as that is what you currently have on demo.

Thanks.


HI,

NO actually I prefer the bi-amp setup.  Better control on the bass and an improved midrange.

I did some 'impulse tests' and the driver control on the panel is much better when you Actively bi-amp. Also the Active setup gives you more control over the frequency response in your room because you can adjust the bass output relative to the mid/tweeter output in 1 dB steps.

There is also an increase in micro dynamics as a result of using and Active setup.

james


vegasdave

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Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #8 on: 15 Aug 2007, 02:29 am »
I agree, biamped is best.

BMU (Bryston Maggie User)

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Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #9 on: 15 Aug 2007, 03:23 am »
Hi Alex,

I have also experimented in the bigger room with the MG3.6's.
Tried Active bi-amping using a 10B electronic crossover and 2-14B's.
So if you have any questions let me know.

james



Did you prefer bi-amping the MG3.6's?  Was passive bi-amping ever tried?  And were less powerful amps ever used, say with PowerPacs?

Alex

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #10 on: 15 Aug 2007, 10:55 am »
Hi Alex,

I have also experimented in the bigger room with the MG3.6's.
Tried Active bi-amping using a 10B electronic crossover and 2-14B's.
So if you have any questions let me know.

james



Did you prefer bi-amping the MG3.6's?  Was passive bi-amping ever tried?  And were less powerful amps ever used, say with PowerPacs?

Alex


Yes I tried 3B's and 4B's as well and some 150 watt Class D designs in both passive and active biamp configurations.

Passive biamping does not net you much more than a single amplifier because your still going through the Passive crossover network.  It has some advantages but Active biamping takes it to the next level. I guess a caution is required though as Active systems tend to be ruthless in there ability to 'shine a light' on what is wrong as well as what is right in a system so some people find Active systems too revealing.

james


James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #11 on: 23 Oct 2007, 12:30 pm »
Hi All,

The new Thiel CS3.7 have arrived.
Will set them up in my larger sound room and report back.

james


mcullinan

Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #12 on: 23 Oct 2007, 01:35 pm »
Hi All,

The new Thiel CS3.7 have arrived.
Will set them up in my larger sound room and report back.

james

I heard them with Bryston 7bSSt. I like the amps a lot, I felt the Thiel were lacking, though they had only 20 hours on them, so maybe  I should go back. The were demos for 8450 is this a good price.. Do you think the 3.7s are overpriced?
Mike

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #13 on: 23 Oct 2007, 03:17 pm »
Hi All,

The new Thiel CS3.7 have arrived.
Will set them up in my larger sound room and report back.

james

I heard them with Bryston 7bSSt. I like the amps a lot, I felt the Thiel were lacking, though they had only 20 hours on them, so maybe  I should go back. The were demos for 8450 is this a good price.. Do you think the 3.7s are overpriced?
Mike

Hi MC,

Where (what) did you feel they lacked?

james

mcullinan

Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #14 on: 23 Oct 2007, 04:01 pm »
Hi All,

The new Thiel CS3.7 have arrived.
Will set them up in my larger sound room and report back.

james

I heard them with Bryston 7bSSt. I like the amps a lot, I felt the Thiel were lacking, though they had only 20 hours on them, so maybe  I should go back. The were demos for 8450 is this a good price.. Do you think the 3.7s are overpriced?
Mike

Hi MC,

Where (what) did you feel they lacked?

james


James,
I think they just needed more break in time. First he had them hooked up to an Audio Research amp, the HD220 Hybrid Drive Stereo Power Amplifier. This was also new and not broken in (20 hours) During this session nothing was in focus and the music was coming at me jumbled.. only the voices were in a distinguishable spot and clear. I mentioned it and we switched to the Bryston, which pretty much fixed the sound staging.
Ive heard Thiel 2.4 and the Bryston 7BSST which was an incredible!!! combination being driven by an Audio Research CD player. Huge soundstage, lifelike presentation. Wow!

Anyways, I thought the bottom end was a bit soft and Im pretty sure the mids were still in transition of opening up. I did hear sparkles of inner detail which were suprising, comparing them to my Merlins. I am genuinely interested and just feel they havent been burned in yet. He played some Spiro Jiro?? and the horns were a tad harsh... though it could again be breakin or the recording itself.

Definitely let us know your impressions as they are getting great reviews... I also believe that Bryston/ Thiel are a great combo.
Mike
Mike

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #15 on: 23 Oct 2007, 04:32 pm »
Ok will do.

james

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #16 on: 27 Oct 2007, 12:08 pm »
As requested my Thiel CS3.7 --- First Impressions:


I have been very fortunate having been involved in this business in two very distinct but unquestionably related areas. Most people in our industry typically sit on only one side of the fence and never experience the other.

Bryston has been involved in audio at the Professional as well as the Consumer level for over forty years now. It has been my good fortune over these 40 years to be able to sit in both Professional and Domestic camps and experience first hand the Recording end and the Playback end of this business.  Being able to follow the recording from the studio to the playback in my home has provided me with a wealth of experience in how music translates from the studio to the home.

My first experience was many years ago when Jack Renner of Telarc records came to Canada to do a jazz recording with Oscar Peterson at Manta Sound Studio in Toronto. He called me and asked if I would bring down some Bryston amplifiers to the studio so they could use them in the recording (he did not like what the studio was using at the time). Anyway, I gladly volunteered BUT only if I could come down and sit through the 3 day session.  My pleading worked and I was able to go out into the recording hall and listen first hand to Oscar and Ray Brown then back into the control room and listen to the recording playback, then 3 days later take the master home and listen to it on my home audio system.

Since that time, I have sat in on hundreds of recordings and many film scores in Hollywood (and other obscure places around the world) where I got to hear the LA Philharmonic close-up and personal in a recording studio. Anyway, the point of this ramble is to give you some idea of how I evaluate audio equipment in a home playback system. The ability to translate the live experience is critical for me.  Music is TRANSIENT in nature –it changes rapidly - (stop-go-stop-go-stop-go) and the ability of loudspeakers and audio equipment to follow that ever changing tempo is the first condition that has to be met for me to move on to other issues like resolution, soundstage, imaging, tonal balance etc. So there’s my bias right up front.

This brings me to the Thiel CS-3.7 loudspeakers.  I have always preferred Active speakers to Passive speakers because in my opinion the critical transient information I hold so dear always suffered when passive components were inserted between the driver(s) and the amplifier output stage.  I think that is why I gravitated to panel speakers such as  Quad, Apogee, and Magnepan over the years because even though they may have had other issues they came closer to providing the transient response and detail I was looking for in home playback.

I have only had the Theils for a short time in one of my home sound rooms (16x23x8) but I listened to them for 3 days straight (we shared a demo room) at the recent Rocky Mountain Audiofest Show in Denver recently. It is the first passive speaker I have heard in a long time to get right that transient leading edge of the music as well as an active system can.  The music has that believe-ability that only comes when you’re not sure if that sound you heard was in the recording or somewhere else in the room. It is what I call “startle effect”.  Some refer to it as “suspension of disbelief” which means that the playback system transcends the medium and you are transported to a live venue. I think we all instinctively know when a sound is live or recorded. So an ‘A’ rating for the Theils on the ability to provide me with what I feel is a very critical part of getting the music right.

The other comment I would like to make is that the coax driver (mid/tweeter) used in the Thiel CS-3.7’s provides one of the largest soundstages I have ever heard. What blew me away at the Denver show was, like many of these shows, you are stuck in the dreaded 14 by 14 square hotel bedroom with the furniture removed. Usually getting anything to sound right in those conditions is a feat in itself.  Well the Thiel 3.7’s absolutely disappeared into the soundstage.  It was about 20 feet wide and 20 feet deep. You felt as if you could walk right into the stage and even if you were standing to the far left or right of the room the Thiels still locked the soundstage in place. I was very impressed -- so I bought a pair on the spot.

I have not had much time to play with my pair at home yet – just got them the other day - but out of the box and not broken in they are mighty impressive. Once I have had more time with them I will report my thoughts further (if anyone cares). I want to give them some time to break in and try them with different amplifiers and front ends as well as in my other 2 rooms where I have the Quad 2905’s and the MG3.6’s and MG1.6’s.

james
« Last Edit: 27 Oct 2007, 03:10 pm by James Tanner »

Burke

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Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #17 on: 27 Oct 2007, 02:07 pm »
Quote
Once I have had more time with them I will report my thoughts further (if anyone cares).

We care. I'll be particularly interested in a comparison between the Thiel CS-3.7’s and  the Magnepan MG 3.6 speakers.

Thanks,
Burke

mr_bill

Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #18 on: 27 Oct 2007, 02:48 pm »
James,
Great comments and I believe you put into words what a lot of us are looking for in our systems.
Please contrast the impressive new 3.7 with your Magneplanar 3.6 and 1.6. 
Do you ever use the BP26DA in your systems or just the Bryston separates?
Also, is the 3.6 across the board better than the 1.6?
Thanks and it's great to hear comments from someone with your experience.
Bill

Viajero5000

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Re: Bryston Demo Systems
« Reply #19 on: 28 Oct 2007, 07:10 pm »
Hi James, how do the thiels compare with mb2's?