Amp recommendations please? New is fine but used as well

Roninaudio · « **on:** 6 May 2018, 12:50 pm »

Hi and thanks in advance for any help. I am an old (that can be taken two ways) fan of Bryston having had the 4B in the late 90s I think. I used 4 at the time and they were killer. I hear they still are. I run 100% digital (Win10/Roon) USB to PS Audio DAC. I had a Cary pre and recently upgraded to ARC. (I have heard ARC and Bryston make a good pair ?). Anyway I would rather not have tubes top to bottom so a great SS amp(s) would be fine. With Bryson's warranty, used from respected audiophile type original AD purchaser would be a great option. They will be replacing PS Audio M700 Class D amps. If you have an opinion on this per say, let me know. Thoughts:

1. My speakers are 4ohm at 87db (dips to 2.5) I like overhead hence the original purchase of the 700wpc amps. However wpc vs current vs AB has impact.
2. A pair of 4Bs, SST / black or similar might work great?
3. Ref above, a pair configured as mono blocks would be great?
4. However I hear (and saw one for sale on this forum) the 4B cubed single amp is awesome
5. Customer service from these guys was top notch. I assume that is still the case and that means a lot
6. Strongly prefer XLR connection

Not sure if I missed anything. There is Pass, Ayre and a bazillion choices. Most I can't afford. This hobby is nuts in that regard. But there are a few really great experiences I have had with equipment (Martin Logan, Bryston, Naim, Parasound) and you tend to go back where you feel comfortable.

Any help is much appreciated. Any questions please ask or PM. I am in Colorado FYI.

Happy listening,

Michael (Below is a pic from the old days)

poseidonsvoice · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 May 2018, 01:03 pm »

Mike,

What sonic characteristics of the PS Audio M700 do you not like currently? What sonic characteristics of your previously owned Bryston amps did you like?

Best,
Anand.

Roninaudio · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 May 2018, 01:23 pm »

Good question(s). The 4Bs were a long time ago, however I have about 75% of my listening time at normal levels (Acoustic Alchemy, Fagan, Miles Davis, etc) yet the the remaining is good old "BTO" level. I want a system that does everything well. Bryston had a punch that drove my speakers to a great level but not fatiguing. I was also just confident in the performance and support.

My Dac has a volume control and can go direct to the amps. However this sound is brittle and dry. But very resolving at low volumes. At high volumes my ears start to bleed and it's painful/fatiguing. (They don't really bleed but you get my point). I added the Cary and it mellowed everything out, added musicality and seemed to do the trick. The ARC is the next level in that regard. I got some resolution back but no pain. I'm looking for an amp (Once again I "heard" Bryston/ARC might be a good combo) that can bring back a bit of synergy, punch, dynamics, no worries performance at any level across multiple genres without the pain. And can drive my speakers no worries all day long (some days I listen 8 hours , some zero if away) with no issues. PSA is not bad (DAC is killer) and the M700s will make a great addition to someone's system. However when I think of "upgrade" Bryston comes to mind and my ARC dealer loves the brand as well (even though he would love to sell me an ARC amp)

Does Bryston makes certain amps known for "musicality?. My dealer said the 4B3 is the "best amp they ever made". True?

I hope this helps/adds definition?

James Tanner · « **Reply #3 on:** 6 May 2018, 01:37 pm »

Ron are you still using the ML speakers?

james

Roninaudio · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 May 2018, 02:07 pm »

No. (Those ReQuests were great though but made in the early 90s I think)
I have Wilson Sabrina's.

Impedance: 4 ohms nominal, 2.53 ohms minimum at 139Hz. Sensitivity: 87dB/W/m at 1kHz. Frequency response: 31Hz–21kHz, ±3dB, Room Average Response. Minimum amplification: 50Wpc.

Thanks James,

Michael

poseidonsvoice · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 May 2018, 02:42 pm »

Quote from: Roninaudio on 6 May 2018, 02:07 pm

No. (Those ReQuests were great though but made in the early 90s I think)
I have Wilson Sabrina's.

Impedance: 4 ohms nominal, 2.53 ohms minimum at 139Hz. Sensitivity: 87dB/W/m at 1kHz. Frequency response: 31Hz–21kHz, ±3dB, Room Average Response. Minimum amplification: 50Wpc.

Thanks James,

Michael

Thanks for clarifying that! I wasn’t aware from your original description that you had different speakers than the picture you posted.

Here are Stereophile’s measurements particularly of the impedance/phase curves (along with other graphs), which will be important to consider for best compatibility:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-specialties-sabrina-loudspeaker-measurements

Best,
Anand.

Mag · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 May 2018, 02:50 pm »

The Bryston SST/2 and SST/3 are much more linear and have what I call bass vibe than the earlier Bryston amp versions. What that means is with some music I found that the amp can process details in recordings that earlier amps could not.

I have the 3B SST/2 and don't think they would be sufficient to drive the Wilsons at high SPL for extended time. Heat is a real concern as occasionally my amp goes into thermal shutdown. So a good quiet fan is something you should consider to keep the amps cool.

The downside on the otherhand is if the amp doesn't shut down from heat then your speakers may overheat. The Wilson specs though look like a power hungry speaker so you're going to want a robust amp to give 'em juice.

poseidonsvoice · « **Reply #7 on:** 6 May 2018, 03:28 pm »

Quote from: Mag on 6 May 2018, 02:50 pm

The downside on the otherhand is if the amp doesn't shut down from heat then your speakers may overheat. The Wilson specs though look like a power hungry speaker so you're going to want a robust amp to give 'em juice.

Like Mag said and John Atkinson says here:

Quote

However, there is also a combination of 4.44 ohms and a capacitive phase angle of –58° at 72Hz, a frequency where music can have considerable energy; this will place a significant demand for current on the partnering amplifier.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-specialties-sabrina-loudspeaker-measurements#1b8HLl8bWTdFypi1.99

Best,
Anand.

Roninaudio · « **Reply #8 on:** 6 May 2018, 03:43 pm »

damn. Thanks guys. Looks like:

1. I may of got lucky choosing the amps I did although I had these back when I had Dynaudio models which offers much less of a load I'm betting
2. Glad I did not jump on any of the Macs (w/o autoformers) that seem popular around here. I think these speakers can beat up an amp (or worse)
3. Glad I asked in this forum.

Also I have heard an inkling about power requirements etc. Most or many guys power these with Pass or crazy stuff like D'Angastino (sp?). Anyway I know Bryston builds battleships so the right pairing and shutdown, overheat, explosions, pyroclastic flows etc should be nil I hope. This is also why I wanted a tube type pre and ss amp driving these and not the other way around if that makes sense...If I had Zu's at 98db or OB's then maybe = different.

john1970 · « **Reply #9 on:** 6 May 2018, 07:02 pm »

If you have the room I would go with a pair of 7B series amps and then I would think you should have plenty of current delivery. There are multiple pairs of 7B3 (the latest iteration) on Audiogon. You could potentially even pick a pair fo 7B SST2 for substantially less.

Roninaudio · « **Reply #10 on:** 6 May 2018, 08:39 pm »

Thanks John- Looks like ST, SST, SST squared and then cubed. My guess power is not an issue (long as my load profile does not create a hazard) for the SST2 for sure and I have the room as I'm mono blocked now. If I were to go stereo I could fit everything back in one cabinet but that's hardly a worry. Anyone care to chime in on two say SST2s vs one 4B3? I'll read up as well. I also want to talk to ARC this week so I become knowledgeable there as well. Much appreciated...

Tezza009 · « **Reply #11 on:** 6 May 2018, 11:48 pm »

Hi,

I have the Sasha 2's with the 7BSST2 amps. The Sasha's also have a very low impedance (to about 2) but are more efficient than the Sabrinas (92DB). The 7Bs drive these speakers with ease in a very large room.

Hope this helps.

Tez

Roninaudio · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 May 2018, 01:42 pm »

Quote from: Tezza009 on 6 May 2018, 11:48 pm

Hi,

I have the Sasha 2's with the 7BSST2 amps. The Sasha's also have a very low impedance (to about 2) but are more efficient than the Sabrinas (92DB). The 7Bs drive these speakers with ease in a very large room.

Hope this helps.

Tez

That helps thanks. However we are 5db different (as you mentioned) in efficiency spec but that should not make that big a difference amp wise. Sabrina drops to 2.53 similar to yours. That should not hurt the amp either if it's designed for it. The SST2 sounds like a plan. I have yet to hear anything on the new 4B3 being "better" for this application. My current Class D's drive them. My assumption is they don't have near the current a 7B will.

JLM · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 May 2018, 02:14 pm »

5 dB more efficient speakers means the same sound pressure levels can be achieved with 33% as much power (wattage) and with much less thermal compression of the speaker drivers (especially consumer drivers). If you listen to 'little girls with a guitar", then no worries. But if you listen classical or rock at realistic (live performance) levels you'd need up your amp from 100 to 300 wpc, for instance, and still suffer loss of dynamics from the thermal compression (and could run into mechanical power handling limits for the drivers).

I'm a fan of having lots of current so that the amp provides a commanding grip on the speakers for better definition and dynamics as well as avoided the speakers trying to handle the dreaded clipped signal. At the same time I'm even more of a fan with easy to drive/efficient speakers (minimum 92 dB/w/m at 8 ohms), which these Wilson's certainly ain't if the stated specifications are accurate.

Roninaudio · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 May 2018, 04:52 pm »

I'm aware of the requirements but thank you for pointing that out. I have never associated any "loss of dynamics" with these speakers nor Dynaudios with similar sensitivity . But technically, I'm sure you have a point- hard to argue w/ physics. I guess I could go buy Zu's but why? Anyway, my current amps are rated at 700w into 4 ohms and the Bryston's under discussion here are rated at:

Solid-state monoblock amplifier. Output power: 600W continuous into 8 ohms (27.8dBW), 900W into 4 ohms (26.6dBW).

My guess is this should be adequate for "Girls with Guitars" or Led Zeppelin, BTO, Beethoven Symphony No 5. At least that is what I'm researching.

TJ-Sully · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 May 2018, 09:46 pm »

Hi Ronin

i have a 4BSST2 driving low sensitivity ATC speakers (85dB), and before that a pair of Bryston Mini T's. It's a killer amp.
I've been doing some reading on amp upgrades as well - and have been tossing around 2 options - a single 4B3, or a pair of 7BSST2's. I have not had the chance to listen to the new cubed series yet, but the input stage advancements seem pretty significant. I'm still torn....but leaning to the 4B3, as my room is medium size.

But if I had your speakers and DAC, I'd be inclined to try a pair of 7B3's.

Good luck on your mission!

TJ

Roninaudio · « **Reply #16 on:** 8 May 2018, 12:22 am »

Thanks TJ. My guess is either would work well. I'm going to read a bit on the 4B3 this evening. But as you mentioned, I think there may be an "edge" to a couple 7Bs. That way I can get "Jessica" to the 105 db it's meant to be played..

Thanks !

TJ-Sully · « **Reply #17 on:** 8 May 2018, 01:46 am »

Yes man! And especially......In Memory of Elizabeth Reid.

Roninaudio · « **Reply #18 on:** 8 May 2018, 12:36 pm »

And let's not forget Whipping Post and Southbound! I was contacted by Bryston and I think they are leaning towards the 4B3 first (typically that is PLENTY of power) but have asked the right questions:

1. How loud do you listen?
2. What is your room size
3. Do you listen to "The Brothers"

I'll let ya know if I hear back... Got a email at like 9pm last nite. That's pretty cool customer service.

rollo · « **Reply #19 on:** 8 May 2018, 03:58 pm »

The 4B will work just fine however if can spring for 28B go for it. Just wonderful amps period.

charles