Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?

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rupnok

Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« on: 14 Jul 2009, 04:12 am »
Hey all,

Forgive me if this post is redundant, but I am wondering if it's possible for me to build out a dual servo controlled sub... in separate boxes, to be placed on either side of the X-Voce, between the X-Statiks...



I LOVE the open baffle sound, and did not like the pressurization or boom from my dual ULWs (which were very small and did fit between the X-Voce and X-Statiks).

I am thinking one A370PEQ with two SW-12-16FRs in an OB configuration or two SW-12-08s in very small sealed boxes. I could probably place the amp on top of my APC power conditioner. I am a TOTAL noobie, but am super curious about Danny's sub designs... and am willing to make the time + money investment (given that the AV1/RS didn't work out!).

rupnok

Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #1 on: 14 Jul 2009, 02:18 pm »
I was thinking two of these:



    * Net volume: 1.0 cu. ft.
    * Dimensions: 14" x 14" x 14-1/4" (including grill)
    * Works well with many 10" and 12" drivers

Conversely, I could get eD to build me custom boxes for roughly the same cost, but would have to pay shipping.

Total Cost:
$360 for A370PEQ
$300 for SW-12-08s (x2)
$300 for PE 1 cubic feet boxes (x2)
= ~$1000

That's getting to be a bit expensive. I guess I could move the TV Stand out of the way, and get the big dual servo sub in one box to reduce costs, and throw my components onto a stand off to the side.

TRADERXFAN

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Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #2 on: 14 Jul 2009, 02:29 pm »
The drivers for the servo sub have to be very close together to operate off of one amplifier. So sounds like a good idea to have a single, dual woofer, enclosure...

HT cOz

Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #3 on: 14 Jul 2009, 03:36 pm »
This might help Danny was talking about the Neo3 when he said "I just wanted to add that a pair of these speakers with a single servo sub is an unbelievable combo." 

If he thinks a single servo sub can keep up with a pair of Neo3 which are 91db efficient then a single servo sub should be able to keep up with your speakers.  That makes it less expensive and easier to solve your issues.

corndog71

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Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #4 on: 14 Jul 2009, 05:04 pm »
I can vouch for the sealed single servo sub! :thumb: 

With the open baffle sub it needs to be out in the room by at least 3 feet.


Though I'm really enjoying my sls', I really want a pair of x-statiks!  The OB-5 would be even better but they're all pricey!

rupnok

Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #5 on: 14 Jul 2009, 06:02 pm »
I can vouch for the sealed single servo sub! :thumb: 

With the open baffle sub it needs to be out in the room by at least 3 feet.


Though I'm really enjoying my sls', I really want a pair of x-statiks!  The OB-5 would be even better but they're all pricey!

Corndog,

Your posting has inspired me! Did you talk to Brian or Danny before you determined the width/height of your "tube" sub to determine optimal internal volume?

I am going for smallest footprint possible. You are right - open baffle is probably not for me because I need these to be butted against a wall. I guess my thought was two is better than one.

TRADERXFAN

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Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #6 on: 14 Jul 2009, 06:08 pm »
2 would be great, if you use the 2nd one to even our your room response. But you need to space them apart from each other to do that. So you would then need a second amplifer, and it would be somewhat significant cost increase.

Jon L

Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #7 on: 14 Jul 2009, 06:10 pm »
You are right - open baffle is probably not for me because I need these to be butted against a wall. I guess my thought was two is better than one.

I have X-Statiks and one ULW-10 (500 watt amp).  Where exactly did you have your dual ULW's placed, on that TV shelf up high or on the floor near room corners? 

ULW also changes the character HUGELY depending on whether you are feeding it via speaker input or line input and even what kind of cables are used, not to mention a gazillion possible adjustments on all those knobs on the back. 

Because X-Statiks themselves have sealed woofers for bass, I found my single sealed ULW to integrate extremely well, but one does need to find the right placement, wiring scheme, and the proper adjustments on the knobs.  Personally, I have experienced no problems with any "pressurization" or "boom" at all. 

In fact, if you still have your ULW's, I can buy one or two off of you :)

HT cOz

Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #8 on: 14 Jul 2009, 06:47 pm »
Jon L. brings up a pretty good point.  How did you go about setting up your current subs?  Do you have a mic?

Danny Richie

Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #9 on: 14 Jul 2009, 06:51 pm »
One of the servo subs will be plenty for your room size. But you could run a pair of them, each in their own enclosure, and running off a single amp that you could place somewhere between the two subs.

I would advise against the PE boxes. They are really lightly constructed and resonate like nobody's business. 

dvenardos

Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #10 on: 14 Jul 2009, 07:20 pm »
The question about running two subs off of one amp comes up quite frequently and we seem to get conflicting answers from Danny/Brian. Maybe you guys should knock your heads together and come up with a standard max recommended distance from amp to speaker?

corndog71

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Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #11 on: 14 Jul 2009, 07:47 pm »
I can vouch for the sealed single servo sub! :thumb: 

With the open baffle sub it needs to be out in the room by at least 3 feet.


Though I'm really enjoying my sls', I really want a pair of x-statiks!  The OB-5 would be even better but they're all pricey!

Corndog,

Your posting has inspired me! Did you talk to Brian or Danny before you determined the width/height of your "tube" sub to determine optimal internal volume?

I am going for smallest footprint possible. You are right - open baffle is probably not for me because I need these to be butted against a wall. I guess my thought was two is better than one.

Well, it's designed for a 1.5 cubic foot enclosure.  I just converted that into a cylinder.  I'm actually a little over.

radius squared x height x pi
_______________________   

divided by 1728                 = cubic feet

6" internal radius
25.5" height (34 rings - probably could've left a ring or 4 out)
1.66 cubic feet by my calculations.

Outside diameter is 14" which is a pretty nice sized footprint.  And it's 29.5" tall.

I will admit that I can feel the cabinet resonate when it's working hard but I don't think I can hear it.  The side walls are 1" thick.  Perhaps another .5"-1" would've been better.

I love it! aa

Danny Richie

Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #12 on: 14 Jul 2009, 07:55 pm »
In his application the two subs would be so close together that it will be a non-issue.

rupnok

Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #13 on: 14 Jul 2009, 09:52 pm »
You are right - open baffle is probably not for me because I need these to be butted against a wall. I guess my thought was two is better than one.

I have X-Statiks and one ULW-10 (500 watt amp).  Where exactly did you have your dual ULW's placed, on that TV shelf up high or on the floor near room corners? 

ULW also changes the character HUGELY depending on whether you are feeding it via speaker input or line input and even what kind of cables are used, not to mention a gazillion possible adjustments on all those knobs on the back. 

Because X-Statiks themselves have sealed woofers for bass, I found my single sealed ULW to integrate extremely well, but one does need to find the right placement, wiring scheme, and the proper adjustments on the knobs.  Personally, I have experienced no problems with any "pressurization" or "boom" at all. 

In fact, if you still have your ULW's, I can buy one or two off of you :)


Jon,

I had them placed on the TV stand, and running them with LFE split from the receiver, using the Denon 1909's base management, crossing over the X-Statiks & X-Voce at 80hz.

I take it you suggest I use the speaker-level inputs? One ULW failed on me after I bought it from a forum member. Couldn't get a timing from AV123 on replacement, so decided to try something different and sell my working unit. (Some folks have been waiting on replacement amps from AV123 for 6 months, which is one more reason to consider sale of the other).

At this point, I could pick up a working ULW-10 for $250 from another forum member, and try this all over again!

I set it up using the Audyssey mic. Did not have the EQ engaged (set EQ bandwidth to 0).

Would love your thoughts on selling the other ULW-10 vs. picking up another. Either way, the GR solution is going to cost me an additional $500... but I hear it may be worth it!

Jon L

Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #14 on: 14 Jul 2009, 10:29 pm »
Jon,

I had them placed on the TV stand, and running them with LFE split from the receiver, using the Denon 1909's base management, crossing over the X-Statiks & X-Voce at 80hz.


Most of my comments are based on pure 2-channel music listening.  I hate "home-theater" subs that always woof and boom, and I always use sub crossover point as LOW as possible, nowhere near 80 Hz. 

For example, I have my ULW with my main music speakers ($$$ custom speakers that reach down to 29-30 hz), and I prefer the results with my mains run full-range with the ULW dialed in at the lowest frequency and volume that makes my reference music tracks sound natural, i.e. no low-midrange thickening with subs turned on. 

ULW should be on the solid floor, not shelf, on spikes, and I have a walkway concrete slab (from my yard) on top of the ULW, which also helps me to *not* hear the sub enclosure colorations.

Also, common wisdom tells you to use the speaker-level input to "match" the character of the sub with character of your other speaker woofers, but I have achieved far better results using the line input.  It just took experimentation with different interconnects to get the better result.  I don't use the EQ knob, just the sub gain and crossover point. 

So AV123 still doesn't have any more 500W amps to ship you? 

rupnok

Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #15 on: 14 Jul 2009, 11:18 pm »
Jon,

I had them placed on the TV stand, and running them with LFE split from the receiver, using the Denon 1909's base management, crossing over the X-Statiks & X-Voce at 80hz.


Most of my comments are based on pure 2-channel music listening.  I hate "home-theater" subs that always woof and boom, and I always use sub crossover point as LOW as possible, nowhere near 80 Hz. 

For example, I have my ULW with my main music speakers ($$$ custom speakers that reach down to 29-30 hz), and I prefer the results with my mains run full-range with the ULW dialed in at the lowest frequency and volume that makes my reference music tracks sound natural, i.e. no low-midrange thickening with subs turned on. 

ULW should be on the solid floor, not shelf, on spikes, and I have a walkway concrete slab (from my yard) on top of the ULW, which also helps me to *not* hear the sub enclosure colorations.

Also, common wisdom tells you to use the speaker-level input to "match" the character of the sub with character of your other speaker woofers, but I have achieved far better results using the line input.  It just took experimentation with different interconnects to get the better result.  I don't use the EQ knob, just the sub gain and crossover point. 

So AV123 still doesn't have any more 500W amps to ship you?

Interesting comments, Jon - many thanks! I think my issue has to deal with listening at low levels, and missing the bottom range. I love the X-Statiks, but find that the sealed woofer portion leave A LOT to be desired in terms of output when listening at low volumes. I've tried using the Denon's Audyssey Dynamic EQ, but find I lose the entirety of the midrange. I end up listening at decently low volumes, and running my subs a little hot at the 80hz crossover (or even 100hz sometimes). Unfortunately what I gain in output I lose in dynamics. Hence my interest in the Servo Subs.

(1) I could probably place the subs out the outside of the X-Statiks on the floor, and play with a lower crossover. I find that if I don't cross over the X-Voce at 80hz, the speaker can get a bit boomy, but you are right on the X-Statiks being crossed over low - I like the natural rolloff.

(2) I am VERY hesitant to double down on AV123 subs given (a) failure rates of anything that requires a plug (b) continued lack of replacement amps for the ULW/UFW. I've heard that there is a drop-in PE amp, but I don't want to have that as a fall-back

(3) Room vibrations - the one aspect of the servo subs that REALLY entice me is that there is no room decay, which would be VERY apartment friendly.

I'd obviously like to save myself from having to buy an additional amp, making this exercise cost prohibitive. But the one aspect of the ULWs I value the most is their relatively low profile. I would like to build the SMALLEST possible footprint for the SW-12-08s if I got them... hence my question about the 1 cubic foot PE box.


corndog71

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Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #16 on: 15 Jul 2009, 01:12 am »
I should probably mention that my sealed sub definitely loads the room.  Things have been knocked over. :green:  It really isn't apartment friendly at reference levels.  But then I have a neighbor who is not apartment friendly either so there ya go. :wink:

At moderate levels it's fine and provides excellent bass and detail.  But at the same time it begs to be turned up because it just keeps getting better.  Kinda like driving a sports car.  You know it can go faster.  It was made to go faster.  If you don't go faster it almost seems like you're wasting it.  Sort of.

The open baffle sub is the one that doesn't load the room. 

The PE boxes are pathetic and by their own physics will become resonant and boomy.  You've been warned.


rupnok

Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #17 on: 15 Jul 2009, 01:43 am »
The open baffle sub is the one that doesn't load the room. 

The PE boxes are pathetic and by their own physics will become resonant and boomy.  You've been warned.

Duly noted on both accounts. I don't think I have the room for proper OB placement, as mentioned above. I also have been scared off by the PE box, so if I go this route, I will most likely go flatpack or eD route.

I like the up-firing nature of your sub - but I have NO way to go about building what you build (no garage, workspace, or even balcony in the apartment)... unless I ordered 100 pre-cut circles from ED... which would be hilarious.

corndog71

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Re: Dual Subs in Two Seperate Sealed Boxes?
« Reply #18 on: 15 Jul 2009, 03:22 am »
Yeah, before I spent the money on the tools I shopped around online to see what it would cost to outsource the mdf rings.

Most places were charging anywhere between $14-25 PER ring! Even on the low end that adds up to over $500!  So I even saved money by buying my own tools which only came out to around $260.

If you know anyone with a router, circular saw, and circle jig maybe you could just borrow them.