[joegator81]

Hey guys/girls i am the very happy owner of an integrated 2 channel and home theater system w/ Songtowers, songcenter, songsurrounds, a VanAlstine Insight 240/3 powering the front three channels. Sources are an Oppo BDP83 and HRT Music Streamer I. Pre-Pro for 2 channel (pure direct) and hometheater is being handled by an Onkyo TXSR707 and the LFE is being handled by a Klipsch KSW 12 (movies only) that i've had for going on 7 years. I'm very happy w/ my room treatments (GIK, Aurelex, etc) but am always experimenting.

So Salk founds, i've still got some upgrading to do in the near future though i'm not sure what i should do first.

1. The subwoofer: The klipsch just can't keep up w/ the songtowers and is thoroughly unmusical. I'd like to upgrade to something from HSU, Rhythmik, or Epik (i'll leaning towards epik as of right now). I want to use the sub to fill out the low end in 2channel as well as surround.

2. The Pre: The onkyo is Ok, but i know there is room for improvement as the addition of the Van Alstine power amp was a very noticable and immediate improvement! Its got to have HT bypass so Parasound Classic 2100 is tops on my list (also very affordable), Odyssey Candela (no sub passthrough, rumors of possible noise w/ passthrough???), VanAlstine rigged for passthrough (again no sub passthrough).

3. The Turntable: obviously somethings missing, i don't have one! This means i'll need to get the turntable, tonearm, cartridge (i'll probably go for an all inclusive setup) plus a quality preamp. $$$. I'd love to get a table setup in the $1000-$1500 range but that would require some saving or putting off the line preamp and subwoofer upgrade for a while.

My room is 18x15x8. My usage is about 60/40 edging closer to 50/50 music every day w/ this wonderful new rig. So where is the biggest improvement to be had???

Thanks in advance!

[oneinthepipe]

1.   The preamp is the heart of the system.  The preamp has a tremendous effect on the sound.

2.   The sub.  Get a Salk sub.  Jim can build a Rythmic sub for you.

3.   There is a learning curve, to a degree, to vinyl, and you might consider a lower cost rig to start.  Additionally, digital is getting better, and there are a lot of new products coming along.  I have been extremely impressed with the combination of Pure Music over iTunes, John Kenny's modified HiFace USB adapter, and about 22 dB of attenuation on the cable.  There are some good posts on the HiRez circle.  This combination comes close to analog.

[floresjc]

I'm very happy with my Parasound 2100, and its a really great buy for the price. If it were me, I'd probably get the sub and then the preamp, simply because you've pointed out you notice very much the one you have can't keep up. And you also have it in a surround setup. You didn't mention your budget, so maybe its possible to get both and save the vinyl for later.

I'd also second oneinthepipe's suggestion of having Jim build you a sub. He built me a custom Rythmik, but he could do any of the more standard designs as well, in a veneer to match your SongTowers.

[avahifi]

I suggest you think about the preamp first. Your system can't play clean, musical, deep bass unless everything ahead of the speakers can do this.

Often the thoughts of "gotta have a subwoofer" vanish after the electronics are upgraded to components that really can play deep bass.

If an AVA preamp with the HT bypass was selected, I would recommend spending the extra $199 for the line buffer option.  This will insure the amplifier sees the best possible input signal.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[ctviggen]

I suggest you think about the preamp first. Your system can't play clean, musical, deep bass unless everything ahead of the speakers can do this.

Often the thoughts of "gotta have a subwoofer" vanish after the electronics are upgraded to components that really can play deep bass.

Totally disagree.  I've upgraded to multi-thousand dollar preamps and still like lots of bass and subs.  And I have the HT3s.   

[Saturn94]

Hey guys/girls i am the very happy owner of an integrated 2 channel and home theater system w/ Songtowers, songcenter, songsurrounds, a VanAlstine Insight 240/3 powering the front three channels. Sources are an Oppo BDP83 and HRT Music Streamer I. Pre-Pro for 2 channel (pure direct) and hometheater is being handled by an Onkyo TXSR707 and the LFE is being handled by a Klipsch KSW 12 (movies only) that i've had for going on 7 years. I'm very happy w/ my room treatments (GIK, Aurelex, etc) but am always experimenting.

So Salk founds, i've still got some upgrading to do in the near future though i'm not sure what i should do first.

1. The subwoofer: The klipsch just can't keep up w/ the songtowers and is thoroughly unmusical. I'd like to upgrade to something from HSU, Rhythmik, or Epik (i'll leaning towards epik as of right now). I want to use the sub to fill out the low end in 2channel as well as surround.

2. The Pre: The onkyo is Ok, but i know there is room for improvement as the addition of the Van Alstine power amp was a very noticable and immediate improvement! Its got to have HT bypass so Parasound Classic 2100 is tops on my list (also very affordable), Odyssey Candela (no sub passthrough, rumors of possible noise w/ passthrough???), VanAlstine rigged for passthrough (again no sub passthrough).

3. The Turntable: obviously somethings missing, i don't have one! This means i'll need to get the turntable, tonearm, cartridge (i'll probably go for an all inclusive setup) plus a quality preamp. $$$. I'd love to get a table setup in the $1000-$1500 range but that would require some saving or putting off the line preamp and subwoofer upgrade for a while.

My room is 18x15x8. My usage is about 60/40 edging closer to 50/50 music every day w/ this wonderful new rig. So where is the biggest improvement to be had???

Thanks in advance!

Your biggest improvement will come from upgrading your sub, IMO.  Speakers, including subs, have far more impact on sound than electronics, assuming you have at least decent equipment (which you do have) and as long as they have enough clean power (again, you have this).  I'm willing to bet that most of the improvement you heard when upgrading the amp was the new amp's ability to deliver plenty of clean power.

So I would say upgrade your sub first, then the electronics.

[drew54]

I think you are shot in the foot with an unmusical sub.  If u follow Frank's advice, you will prob be better off with the sub turned off for music listening.

Really good subs can be found on the used mkt from REL, Revel, Paradigm Reference, higher end Velodyne, maybe some others.  New JL Audio stuff is also impressive, esp for the price.

You're asking for a lot of different directions-
Turntable, pre or sub?

You can quickly find a record player turning into serious money, tho Singer is listing a demo VPI Scout for a grand.  But you need a cartridge, cables, a good phono preamp, records, etc.

Are there any really good sounding HT pre's out there that dont cost an arm and a leg?  I dunno.  I need tubes in my preamp.

[Nuance]

1.   The preamp is the heart of the system.  The preamp has a tremendous effect on the sound.

2.   The sub.  Get a Salk sub.  Jim can build a Rythmic sub for you.

3.   There is a learning curve, to a degree, to vinyl, and you might consider a lower cost rig to start.  Additionally, digital is getting better, and there are a lot of new products coming along.  I have been extremely impressed with the combination of Pure Music over iTunes, John Kenny's modified HiFace USB adapter, and about 22 dB of attenuation on the cable.  There are some good posts on the HiRez circle.  This combination comes close to analog.

^ This!

[mark funk]

Get a preamp! You know, now that I have had my HT2-TLs for a few weeks I have not been running the sub woofer  .



                                                                                 

[mchuckp]

I've learned that people like different things in audio. So it is going to be tough to get good advice on where to upgrade. I like solid low end but I'm in no way a bass freak. I know others love killer deep bass and that is cool too.

I ditched an Onkyo AVR a while back for a AVA T8 tube preamp. I found the difference pretty dramatic. Since then there is NO WAY I'm going back to HT. Music just sounds way too good.

I think you could easily benefit from a new pre or a sub if that is your thing. If you don't think your current sub can hang with your Salks, sounds like you gotta upgrade there or stop using it for music.

Be great if you could afford both.  Having a turntable is pretty sweet and a do recommend it. But sounds like you are better off holding off on that until you work on the other two. Someone mentioned that vinyl will eat up cash. This is true. I do recommend trying to get into vinyl a bit more cheaply until you decide if it is your thing. You can get a pretty nice sounding system for a reasonable amount. Then upgrade down the road if you truly dig it.

Good luck!

[Stercom]

Looks like you need a one of Frank's preamps with HT bypass and phono input. Its the logical next step.

[joegator81]

Thanks all, theres a lot of good advice here. I think i need to clarify that i'm not using a sub for 2channel right now, i've got my onkyo avr set to pure direct so no LFE channel there. But where it is noticable is w/ SACD, DVD-A, and Blu-Ray over HDMI which is of course carrying my movie signals thus the LFE channel. I can live w/o a sub in my stereo setup for now but i can only imagine the extra sound i get, the quality is already there, but i just know there is that little extra something special that tight, deep, rythmic bass can deliver... that full range experience. 

As for the vinyl, i like the suggestions of starting at the entry level. A friend of mine and fellow Salk owner is a big vinyl guy and has rebuilt a Technics table which he is willing to loan me until i can afford to sink in the money required for my own rig... as was said, phonostage, cartridge, table, stand, etc are not cheap.

I think i've come to realize that i really want a linestage asap, i was very very happy w/ the improved dynamics and clarity that i noticed w/ the van alstine power amp (obviously my onkyo's power stage was nowhere near the quality). Having experienced that improvement i know what a good quality preamp could possibly due to improve the sound, or maybe just "get out of the way" more than the onkyo.

so i guess i just need to figure out which way to go w/ the preamp, i think i know which way i'm leaning but would still welcome any suggestions. Then i'll work on the sub/s. and i'll use the technics until i have the money for a nice LP setup.

[revrob]

Totally disagree.  I've upgraded to multi-thousand dollar preamps and still like lots of bass and subs.  And I have the HT3s.

Totally disagree. I added a Joule LA-150 MKII preamp with my HT3s and now I am in heaven. More bass and just better overall sound. I would absolutely upgrade the preamp, first.

Peace

[Wayner]

Frank and Henry's (Oneinthepipe) point on getting a preamp next is, in my mind, your next logical step. With your interest in getting back into vinyl, a quality preamp (hint, hint) may be purchased with a very high quality phono board (for MM or high output MC cartridges). This would be a very excellent musical "chain" if you will, and at some point, if you decide you need more bass, the sub would be the next move.

I've heard some real crappy preamps in my time (brands omitted), one in particular was all the rave in hifi magazines. After bringing one of these home, I was almost in tears, realizing that I had taken one giant leap backwards, being way better off with the preamp I had traded in for the new POS.

Again, another painful lesson learned, and also learning that not all lessons learned are in a classroom.

Wayner

[joegator81]

Well, a few updates. A friend of mine and fellow songtower owner refurbished a Technics SL 1700 Mk2 and is lending it to me for the time being and i purchased a cambridge audio 640P phono preamp. I've already purchased a good bit of new and used vinyl and am really enjoying the search and the listening! It is a lot of work, but the kind that i like. So, i think the preamp will be next.

[drphoto]

Joe, why not just purchase a full function pre if you wanna try phono? I know there are many who use outboard phono pre's into linestages and are happy but I think John's (chairguy) advice over on the vinyl circle to minimize multiple connections and IC's for low voltage signals is pretty good advice. I'd send back that Cambridge (not a knock on that unit, I've not heard it or even heard of it) and just  go ahead and get a good FF pre. And yes, they matter. My system improved in many ways when I changed pre's. And the one I started with was no slouch. As you already like the AVA sound, Frank can set you up.

However, I wouldn't necessarily toss the Klipsch sub. A single sub is really hard to integrate for music. What I would do is get another high quality sub or 2, and run the Klipsch too, ableit at a lower level and placed in a different spot in the room. It's an idea called distributed subs. I believe it works, but a discussion of it is not appropriate in this circle. You can do a search on the site for the concept or PM me.

[adydula]

Hello....

I went thru the same stuff as many of us....I have an Onkyo SVT STR 805. It now is my HT only system.

I have an AVA Ultravalve amp, and a AVA Pre-Amp. The pre-amp compared to the Onkyo pre is a night and day difference. I would do this first.

Then evaluate whether you need a sub upgrade for 2 ch music or not...if so then go at it...Jim makes good subs as well.

I dont use my sub at all for 2 ch....only for HT.

And I have SongTowers as well..played with them but just keep going back to no sub for 2 ch. if I want more low end its time to go for a set of HT2TL's ...(big grin).

All the best
Alex

 

[joegator81]

Thanks for all the good suggestions guys, i'm really looking at getting a parasound classic 2100 pre. It has all the options i'm looking for and from what i've been told, it sounds quite good (especially for the price, approx. $600). As much as i would like to spend more on the pre, i just can't swing it right now. So, i would like to hear any opinions about this preamp, good or bad (if negative please PM me).

[billmcc]

Thanks for all the good suggestions guys, i'm really looking at getting a parasound classic 2100 pre. It has all the options i'm looking for and from what i've been told, it sounds quite good (especially for the price, approx. $600). As much as i would like to spend more on the pre, i just can't swing it right now. So, i would like to hear any opinions about this preamp, good or bad (if negative please PM me).

Joe,

I have had the 2100 for awhile and I am very happy with it. I have had a number of 2CH preamps with HT Bypass and the 2100 has been in my system the longest . The overall SQ, features and build quality are excellent IMO. I use it along with my Onkyo 886 and with the 2100 I feel I have the best of both worlds. The 2100 for 2 CH music is excellent and my STs could not be happier . I sent you a PM as well.

Bill

[Nels Ferre]

Another thought for you... I've owned a fair number of preamps- and have auditioned scads of them. Of all of them, the one that I still wish I owned (and nearly did again) was Frank's Super PAS3. I loved that thing.

While I am sure Frank's Ultra series is better, none are in your budget. You could get a cosmetically nice unit on the 'Bay or Audiogon. Whether it works or not is immaterial as long as the transformer is good. I would rebuild an old PAS anytime (with the AVA kit) over damn near anything I could buy new or used for $600. And you get the satisfaction of doing it yourself. It is a fun project. No HT Bypass though....but for me, sound first......