[James Romeyn]

If I were even thinking about buying the 626R's, I would immeadiately look for another speaker based solely on ribbonspeakers acerbic posts here.......

He jumped into a comparison thread after the comparison had been done and some at the comparo were anwsering the questions.  

Then Ribbonspeakers jumps in    talking trash.....

Good job Jim, hope that was worth turning off potential customers....if any are still interested in VMPS at least Casler has handled himself with class and dignity.

Let me get this straight, Marby, if I'm talking trash, what is your above post if nothing but trash?  Who have I attacked personally?  Your first sentence perfectly explains your point of view.  Why don't you grow up & respond to my post?

[brad b]

I was a died in the wool tube lover.  I thought I'd never switch back to SS.  After the Ampzilla SS monos arrived, I could not go back to my great little tube amp.  Yes, with amps, there appear to be preferecnes, as with speakers.  But in the case of the VMPS, the difference in performance is so staggering that even the best cone/dome tech can't keep up.  The Ampzilla's appear to mimic the VMPS performance advantage in that regard.  They have such a performance advantage that even my great tube amp could not compete.

So if I told you that I loved the VMPS 626R but thought it sounded as good as it was going to get using Radii tube amp and pre vs. the ampzilla does that make me right and you wrong?  By the way, it does sound killer...I don't think so, just as I don't think I can say that ribbons and planar technology is better than cones.  Think about it, some of us like to add distortion back in (tubes and vinyl), but our ears love it.  others love a CD and sand amp cause it is immediate and "sopposedly" more accurate; and don't give me any shit about the room because the room has as much to do with sound as any $1000 cable you want to name.  The choice is yours, mine or the next guy.  There is no right or wrong choice...
Brad

[brad b]

I get it, you're really the smack talkin Jim Rome, here to get the audiogeeks all fired up after smoking the sports circuit.  

Welcome to the circle, and good luck...

[James Romeyn]

So if I told you that I loved the VMPS 626R but thought it sounded as good as it was going to get using Radii tube amp and pre vs. the ampzilla does that make me right and you wrong?  By the way, it does sound killer...I don't think so, just as I don't think I can say that ribbons and planar technology is better than cones.  Think about it, some of us like to add distortion back in (tubes and vinyl), but our ears love it.  others love a CD and sand amp cause it is immediate and "sopposedly" more accurate; a ...

I don't know of any differences in amplifier design as startling as that between the VMPS & a cone/dome.  I've heard a lot of different amps, makes, models, types, sizes.  I am saying I come from the assumption that VMPSs tech will beat cones/comes everytime, because I've been through enough comparisons & am familiar with the design differences.  If it's OK for everyone to disagree as some are positing, then is it not OK for me also to disagree?  Who cares anyway?  Everyone can believe whatever they want, this is only stereo!  Is claiming one thinks some tech always beats another OK?  Or is it not OK?  Will you guys pay any attention to someone who says a walkie talkie beats your system?  I appreciate cones/domes, they just plain suck in comparison.  I am only refering to VMPS tech, not anypone else's, as I'm not familiar with anyone else employing ribbons in the same fashion.  This is a VMPS vs. cone/dome subject, not necessarily any other ribbon make.

[James Romeyn]

I get it, you're really the smack talkin Jim Rome, here to get the audiogeeks all fired up after smoking the sports circuit.  

Welcome to the circle, and good luck...

Jim Rome is great!  First sports rapper I could listen to for any length of time.

[TheeeChosenOne]

The only thing I want to add is that I know a dealer that sells VMPS (including the 626r) among other speaker brands.

He told me that he prefers 2 other make/model under $2k cone bookshelfs over the 626r FST (other than the Ref 1).

I don't think that there's a be-all and end-all in speaker design.  VMPS is really good, but so are other brands employing traditional technology.

Different strokes for different folks.

[Marbles]

Let me get this straight, Marby, if I'm talking trash, what is your above post if nothing but trash.  Who have I attacked personally?  Your first sentence perfectly explains your point of view.  Why don't you grow up & respond to my post?

Nobody said you attacked anyone, I said you made acerbic posts and talked trash.

I said you jumped into a thread comparing two speakers and that comparison was already done.  You then butted into the thread that was between those that were at the comparo or those asking those present about what they heard with your prejudgements of the Onix and did it with such a lack of class with:

"I think the reason the 626R has trounced everything except the larger VMPS ribbons has everything to do with the technology employed. In this reagrd, you are flat out wrong, IMO. Cone & dome technology is slower. All other things being equal (designer talent, etc.), the VMPS technology wins everytime. Just like my friend's 700HP nitrous 9.0L Vette is not going to loose a straightline race to a 450HP turbo Porsche. To say the difference is implementation or synergy, or something other than power to weight, is wrong. The VMPS power to weight ratio (diaphragm mass vs motor strength) beats your cone/dome contraption every time. Just my 2C. I apparently can't listen to the Onix unless someone nearby has a pair, as they are sold only direct. I'd never waste my money on return UPS when the odds are stacked so far against the Onix. Come on, a cone/dome 5" 2-way vs a VMPS 3way ribbon, who you kidding? If the 626R lost, they were broken, that's all there is."

That I think that you turned off many more people than you turned on.

I know that's how I took it.

[Sa-dono]

I don't know of any differences in amplifier design as startling as that between the VMPS & a cone/dome. I've heard a lot of different amps, makes, models, types, sizes. I am saying I come from the assumption that VMPSs tech will beat cones/comes everytime, because I've been through enough comparisons & am familiar with the design differences. If it's OK for everyone to disagree as some are positing, then is it not OK for me also to disagree? Who cares anyway? Everyone can believe whatever they want, this is only stereo! Is claiming one thinks some tech always beats another OK? Or is it not OK? Will you guys pay any attention to someone who says a walkie talkie beats your system? I appreciate cones/domes, they just plain suck in comparison. I am only refering to VMPS tech, not anypone else's, as I'm not familiar with anyone else employing ribbons in the same fashion. This is a VMPS vs. cone/dome subject, not necessarily any other ribbon make.

It is not about whether you agree or disagree. The problem is that you're stating your opinion as if it is fact This is even more disappointing, seeing that you are a dealer. There is something known as tact and class...as a business person, you would be wise to learn it

[James Romeyn]

I stated it was my opinion.  If you need it more clear than that, get a dictionary.  "As if" means I did not do it.  Get it?  I am not making posts to make friends.  I am posting to state my opinion.  If you disagree, I don't care, not one whit.  I don't even care if you care that I don't care.  Why don't one of you who disagree explain where/why I am wrong rather than moan about my lack of tact?  I can only surmise, as should readers, that you can't assail the facts I stated, such as mass problems with cone technology.  So you complain about style.  What is false about the statement that ribbons have much less moving mass vs. cone/dome technology?  What is false about the statement that every cone/dome is Xd right in the middle of the ear's range of maximum phase sensitivity?  This complaining about style is petty.  What are these great cone/dome systems your dealer friend likes better than the 626R he sells, I'd love to know?  The complaint about my style is only correct if the differences are not as I describe.  Unitl I hear differently, I stand by my post.  If the differences are as I describe, then the enthusiasm in my posts is perfectly fine.  Where am I wrong?

[Ravi]

Jim, try not to post when your drunk...

And about why VMPS technology should win every time, well 3 people picked the Ref1 as their choise in this shootout, of which one of them owned neither one.  That is the opinion I trust the most.  

 "If you like the slower cone/dome, you are not interested in accuracy."

This is such a stupidly ignorant comment.  Even VMPS owners (Tyson, TheeChosenOne) have showed a lot of class in this thread, and they own RM40s.

I've talked to a few people that preferred the Ellis 1801s over the 626r's, and I'm sure there are others who would pick the opposite.  Again this time, a few people liked the Refs better.  Wake up, all people don't live and breathe VMPS.  Its called FREEDOM.  The freedom to choose what sounds better to the listener.

[Jay S]

I believe that VMPS ribbon speakers must be very good since so many people are passionate about them and have preferred them in comparison tests.  I also find the price points to be reasonable.  

That said, I do not believe they are a universal end-all.  I auditioned the 626R, using my own CDs, sitting in the sweet spot.  The 626Rs were in an optimized set up (electronics, room treatment).  Bottom line: I was not especially impressed by the sound.  And, no, I don't think that means that I prefer flawed sound.  

I am open to the possibility that the 626R may blow me away in another setup.

[doug s.]

jim, among other things, ya said:

"...Why don't one of you who disagree explain where/why I am wrong rather than moan about my lack of tact? ..."

jeez, this is so easy, it's like taking candy from a baby!     you are wrong, simply, because you dissed a product ya never even heard, yust cuz of yer preconceived notion of how it mite sound, due to technology *you* believe is inferior.  a technology, btw, that others believe has strengths that outweigh the shortcomings of ribbons.  ribbon drivers, like any other drivers, offer *tradeoffs*, they are *not* superior in *every* area.

yes, *every* driver implementation has *some* shortcomings and some areas where they excel.  regardless of your belief that ribbons are superior in every way.  which is why speaker design is as much an art as a science.  which is why some mfr's still invest $$$ in making better cone drivers.  which is why some people may prefer the onix reference one & others prefer the vmps 626r.  doesn't mean the 626r was broken, or that the folks who prefer the onix don't like accuracy, or can't hear.  

yer analogy of the 900hp nitrous vette vs the 450hp porsche is similarly flawed.  ok, so the vette wins in a straight line.  but the porsche likely will go around a corner faster.  which is better?  whichever one *you* like!  

so, you would be better served to yust state your *opinions* of what *you* like better, and back them up w/comparisons of how you tink something actually *sounds*, instead of insulting others by insinuating that those who disagree w/you are stupid, or deaf, or don't want "as-close-to-live" sound as possible, or don't walue accuracy in sound, or whatever...  

john casler & sadono offer opinions as to which speakers they prefer, & why, which is much more useful to audiphiles who read these threads.  so, also, does jonbee, who you mention.  i'm familiar w/his posts - tho he certainly likes the 626r's, he's also aware of positive attributes offered by other designs, & he offers info as to why he likes what he likes, & what his preferences are.  the only info *you* offer, otoh, is which dealer prospective vmps customers should avoid!  

yust my opinion, of course!  

doug s.

[John Casler]

And about why VMPS technology should win every time, well 3 people picked the Ref1 as their choise in this shootout, of which one of them owned neither one. That is the opinion I trust the most.

Well this thread has certainly been interesting

I might add a few comments.

There were four people in attendance Myself, Shokunin, Sa-Dono, and Mad Dog.  Of those four, Shokunin and Myself are VMPS owners, and Sa-Dono and Mad Dog either are or are soon to be Ref One owners (Sa-Dono has made his intention clear)

As far as 3 of 4 choosing the Ref One, that did not happen.  

Mad Dog has the Ref Ones, and Loves them (as he should they are great speakers) but generally states that his main draw to them is more the size and finish.  He generally concedes that the 626R has "slightly" better performance except for the dispersion.

Sa-Dono has had much experience with the Ref Ones and is highly involved with the Onix community having had a full set of Diva (pre-Onix but same company) speakers.  He has heard Mad Dogs speakers many times and it is only natural to like the speaker.  He has made up his mind (I think) to get some Ref Ones.  He has only heard the 626Rs for one session. (although he has heard the RM40s two sessions also)

Shokunin, is an RM40 owner and is well aware of the precision alignment nessessary to acheive the best in sonics from VMPS speakers.  He, like I, certainly appreciates the Ref One and he even talked about getting a pair for his office or bedroom since the 626Rs would be too big.  But he is also considering a pair of 626Rs for his main system.  His reference to the "dispersion"/sweet spot was just to point out the difference and how well the Ref Ones image when off center, in comparison.

I don't think he "chose" the Ref One.  I think he just recognized how well it does certain things.

And Me, while I am a dealer, which might make some automatically discount my opinion, I select a speaker, based "soley"on its ability (to my ears) to reproduce the original event, when I am in the "sonic cockpit" doing some serious listening.

Anything other than that in "MY" listening is entirely secondary.  As an audiophile, I feel the ultimate goal is just that.

I know that the 626R can offer this type of experience.  In the brief times I have spent with the Ref Ones, I think it too can approach a similar performance.

But, the issue of limited dispersion has several faces.

1) it will reduce off axis (or out of sweet seat) listening enjoyment
2) it will reduce early reflections
3) it will improve on axis (sweet seat) accuracy, soundstage and imaging.

As I write this I have been playing several cuts and have gotten up and walked around the room.  It sounds marvelous.  The room is filled with sound, tonal and frequency balance is fine, and everything except that absolute sweet seat soundstage and "unbeleivable" you are there high end is there.

I think in our future comparisons this issue will maybe need more "specific" addressing, since somehow it seems to be the main issue with the VMPS speakers.

Now to be perfectly clear, there is no specific sense of soundstage during this walking around and if someone wishes to have that then their only option is Bose 901s.

No non-reflective, or non-dipolar speaker will offer a sense of soundstage from a 2 channel speaker set up that retains the holographic soundstage and imaging properties, as one moves about the room.

The laws of psychoacoustics and two sound sources assure this.

Some time ago Tyson and a few others reported on the "off axis" out of sweet spot, sound of the 626R compared to the Norh speakers and focusing on this area found that even off axis, the 626R sounds "as good" as the Norh.

I can assure you that there is no direct radiation speaker made, that can offer "pin point" imaging "AND" a sweet spot wider than one persons head.

I have been setting up Audio systems since Jon Dahlquist and Saul Marantz visited me back in 1974 and helped me set up my DQ10s.  I have studied the physics and psychoacoustics of sound to the point of actually applying for patents relating to speaker set up devices.

When I listen, I do so seriously and critically.

This is what drew me to the Ribbons of VMPS.  Now I don't poo poo other cone and dome tweeters as some of them sound very nice, but in my search for the ultimate sweet seat experience, I haven't found any that can do what the ribbons do.

Now Sa-dono (who is a good friend of mine by the way) finds things to critique about the 626R, I want to find out what he is hearing and why I don't hear it.

Regarding his comments about the bass.  In our listening session, we had a change (midstream) of components to a Bottlehead preamp and we also added a power conditioner and power cord.

These components made a "BIG" difference in the sound of the 626R.  The Bass was much fuller/fatter and the highs became more "etched" (funny for tubes).

Personally I liked the bass improvement, but the upper mids and highs were too much for my tastes and I said several times that the speaker would need to be re-tuned (pot adjusted) for these electronics, to sound good.

After that, improvement (?) we listened to Dire Straits and it was entirely too bright.

So if any of you read my review of the session in AVS, you will see that I stressed several times that this type of limited session can not offer enough experience to really know what a speaker can do.

This was Sa-Dono's first listen to the 626R/FST, but he is very familiar with the Ref One.  I hope he gets the Ref Ones so we can have more comparisons. (he is practically a neighbor in West LA)

So in closing I again have to caution anyone to put too much faith in what we heard.  

I'm not sure but I think we only had a "direct comparison" as in A/B on two cuts.  One Diana Krall and one Stevie Ray Vaughan.  Maybe three at the most. and that was 4 guys switching seats during the track.


I think the worst thing about audio is that it takes a really long time to get familiar with the potential of your equipment.

But the best thing is you can have a lot of fun doing just that.

[Brian Cheney]

I wonder if the "shootout" included orchestral music, opera, heavy metal, or other dense and difficult material.  Small speakers have a hard time reproducing such, not so the 626R.

The 626R is rated to 42Hz and has strong port output to 35Hz.  A 5 1/4" 2way usually rolls off in the 60 to 80Hz range.  "Bass" below that point is primarily doubling and distortion.

I haven't heard the Onix so I can't comment further.

[TheeeChosenOne]

John,
2 people preferred the Onix (both fair reviewers), you preferred the VMPS.  Shokunin is more in the middle with a lean towards the Ref 1's (due to the wider sweetspot) and sums up his opinion by saying "I'd be happy with either Ref 1's or 626R's, and both are priced similarly."  Read his review, people can translate what they want from it:  http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=262037&perpage=20&pagenumber=3

There is something to be said about a speaker that is up there with the 626r in sonics, has those looks and size, and has the wide dispersion that it has.  The designer was from Triangle, so he has serious pedigree.  This is no fluke design.

At the end of the day, it doesn't[/u] matter.  Both speakers are great and represent what can be accomplished with ribbons or cones at the very high end.

[Sa-dono]

I wonder if the "shootout" included orchestral music, opera, heavy metal, or other dense and difficult material.  Small speakers have a hard time reproducing such, not so the 626R.

The 626R is rated to 42Hz and has strong port output to 35Hz.  A 5 1/4" 2way usually rolls off in the 60 to 80Hz range.  "Bass" below that point is primarily doubling and distortion.

I haven't heard the Onix so I can't comment further.

I can tell you that this is not the case with the Ref 1. It has very solid bass response down to 42 Hz (-3 db), and still extends a bit lower, especially with in-room response. The only thing it has problems with is the 1812 Overture, without a sub and crossover, at high volumes

[Sa-dono]

At the end of the day. It doesn't matter. Both speakers are great and represent what can be accomplished with ribbons or cones at the very high end.

I couldn't agree more with this And like John said, we are good friends. I hold nothing against the 626R's or VMPS speakers, and feel they are indeed tremendous speakers...especially for the money. While we were not able to do many A/B comparisons, I was able to get my time in the sweet spot for the 626R's with some tracks I am highly familar with, and have had previous experience between the Ref 1's and RM40's. It will be interesting to do some more comparisons in the future, and I am sure these will happen eventually.

[John Casler]

At the end of the day. It doesn't matter. Both speakers are great and represent what can be accomplished with ribbons or cones at the very high end.

Actually we all four were really pretty much in agreement on both speakers with all of us giving slight edges to one or the other in particular areas.  (But again on a very limited comparison)

I trust none of my comments have caused anyone to think that I did not like the Ref Ones.  I have stated that they are very formidible in that price range.

The "very" slight edges I gave in my performance ratings were based on my best perceptions given the limited exposure and somewhat changing conditions.

Because of the interest generated, I'm sure we will do future comparisons looking for some of the specifics qualities mentioned.

[John Casler]

I can tell you that this is not the case with the Ref 1. It has very solid bass response down to 42 Hz (-3 db), and still extends a bit lower, especially with in-room response. The only thing it has problems with is the 1812 Overture, without a sub and crossover, at high volumes

After hearing that 1812 Overture again, I don't think "any" speaker will effectively handle those cannon shots.

       

I noticed MAd Dog didn't play it on the REFs

And I was glad he was quick on the volume control.

[Juan R]

HEY, I like my 911 Porsche  better than any crapy corvette