AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Digital Amplifier Company Owners => Topic started by: guest1632 on 3 Feb 2011, 05:23 am
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Hi, Well, I've been looking at this Circle withinterest. If I'm not asking to much, are your amps fully balanced, or just using a transformer at the inputs? I've heard the debate back and forth for balanced versus not. Balanced would obviously be good in a Studio setting where it's important to keep the grounds separate from signal ground. Ok, understood. But how does this apply in a home setting? Is there that much of a sound difference between the balance and non balanced? Are your adapters just omitting the one terminal, and just hooking this up like a regular RCA connector? Why not just have an RCA connector mounted alongside the balanced cannon connector? I wouldn't think three inches of wire is gonna make that much of a difference versus some adapter.
So Tommy when you gonna come out with a "Digital" Preamp of your own?
Ray Bronk
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Ray,
Cherry amps have true balanced inputs. There is no transformer input coupling. There is a difference in the sound since true balanced connections tend to be quieter --- less noise from interference, etc. Our adapters have two parts. One part lifts the ground and this part is removable in case the preamp has grounding issues. We find that true balanced connections are more reliable and devices with balanced connections, such as preamps, tend to be of higher quality.
We have plans to make a preamp someday, but other amps will be first.
Thanks for your interest.
Best Regards,
Tommy
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Ray,
Cherry amps have true balanced inputs. There is no transformer input coupling. There is a difference in the sound since true balanced connections tend to be quieter --- less noise from interference, etc. Our adapters have two parts. One part lifts the ground and this part is removable in case the preamp has grounding issues. We find that true balanced connections are more reliable and devices with balanced connections, such as preamps, tend to be of higher quality.
We have plans to make a preamp someday, but other amps will be first.
Thanks for your interest.
Best Regards,
Tommy
Thanks Tommy. So what preamp do you currently use yourself with your amps?
Ray Bronk
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Tommy mentioned in this post (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=79614.msg758775#msg758775) that he was using an Audio Research SP-9.
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Is there that much of a sound difference between the balance and non balanced?
Great question, I have recently explored this issue and posted my findings here...
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155498.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155498.0) :thumb:
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Note that there are:
a] Balanced interconnect systems and they have a balanced output stage >> balanced cable >> balanced input stage.
b] Totally balanced components (with each stage a balanced circuit) this can be a good design engineer choice.
But a balanced cable to a RCA input is nether of these, it's just an unbalanced interconnect system and a coax cable would be a better choice.
On the other hand a unbalanced RCA output >> balanced cable >> balanced XLR input is a good idea.
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My Pass amp and Parasound A21 amp sound slightly better with XLR in a fully balanced system. I use to own a Cambridge Audio 840c CDP and it sounded better when connected via XLR. It depends upon the gear and cables used. I have 3 different brands of XLR cables and they all sound different-
Cardas Parsec, Audioquest Colombia 72v DBS and Belden 8402 XLR's.
The rest of my system is a BAT preamp and a balanced Luxman DAC
Of course as always, YMMV.
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It depends upon the gear and cables used. I have 3 different brands of XLR cables and they all sound different-
Cardas Parsec, Audioquest Colombia 72v DBS and Belden 8402 XLR's.
There seems to be a lot of praise for the Belden 8402 but quite frankly as an IC, I think it is extremely overrated, and very poor quality as far as SQ is concerned.
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There seems to be a lot of praise for the Belden 8402 but quite frankly as an IC, I think it is extremely overrated, and very poor quality as far as SQ is concerned.
The AQ and Belden sound better than the Cardas Parsec. The belden has a very black background and is very detailed. It just gets out of the way. The AQ Colombia DBS is similar but has a bit less bass but it tames sibilants very well without sounding rolled off. The 8402 is a hidden gem for XLR.
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The 8402 is a hidden gem for XLR.
"Compared to the unbalanced TEO cables, the Belden balance cables sound tonally emasculated, lacking body, texture and tone; they are steely, harsh, incomplete, lacking presence. The net result is emotionally devoid and disengaging."
You can read the full account here... http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155498.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155498.0)
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"Compared to the unbalanced TEO cables, the Belden balance cables sound tonally emasculated, lacking body, texture and tone; they are steely, harsh, incomplete, lacking presence. The net result is emotionally devoid and disengaging."
You can read the full account here... http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155498.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155498.0)
I don't doubt that the Beldens are out classed.
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I don't doubt that the Beldens are out classed.
The difference between those two cables is tantamount to comparing a modern SOTA DAC to an early entry level CDP.
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One big advantage of balanced into Tommy's amps is that you don't need the RCA to XLR adapter.
I have heard big differences between them, which tells me that even the good ones (I have used Cardas) are most likely be causing harm.
-Mike
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One big advantage of balanced into Tommy's amps is that you don't need the RCA to XLR adapter.
I have heard big differences between them, which tells me that even the good ones (I have used Cardas) are most likely be causing harm.
-Mike
Before I went all XLR I used XLR adapters. I bought a pair of cardas adapters and some cheap ones from a local music store and I can't hear a lick of difference between the adapters. The cardas were a total waste of money. I still have to use them for my phono preamp to my BAT preamp.
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The difference between those two cables is tantamount to comparing a modern SOTA DAC to an early entry level CDP.
I think that your hi-fi system set-up has a real problem.
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One big advantage of balanced into Tommy's amps is that you don't need the RCA to XLR adapter.
Well that would be true if I was willing to slum with inferior sound quality.
I have heard big differences between them, which tells me that even the good ones (I have used Cardas) are most likely be causing harm.
I'm not sure I follow what you are saying?
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Before I went all XLR I used XLR adapters. I bought a pair of cardas adapters and some cheap ones from a local music store and I can't hear a lick of difference between the adapters. The cardas were a total waste of money. I still have to use them for my phono preamp to my BAT preamp.
Thank you - that is helpful. :D
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I think that your hi-fi system set-up has a real problem.
Yeah that must be the problem. Fortunately I have solved the problem by removing the reprehensible weak link. :lol:
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Yeah that must be the problem. Fortunately I have solved the problem by removing the reprehensible weak link. :lol:
Belden 8402 (and similar) are not the weak links in any audio chains. Many of the best classical music concert hall recording are made using these cables and that's with lengths up to 100 meters (300 feet).
Look for your problem elsewhere.
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That cable "might" be okay as microphone cable, but as a high end home audio interconnect cable it is garbage. Try some real cables and hear the difference for yourself.
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Good to know that the Belden 8402 RCA's are not that good. I was thinking about trying a pair for my phono pre to my BAT preamp since the 8402 XLR's sound great. I have a friend that bought the 8402 XLR's from Take five audio in Canada. They are Cryo'd and use silver connectors. He loves them too in his high end system. I bought mine from btpa.com with copper connectors.
Of course I tend to believe that cables sound different in different systems. Just like my XLR adapters did not sound any different between the $30pr and $125pr Cardas and a previous poster heard differences. However in a USB cable shoot out in my system there were significant differences among cables.
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I did NOT try the 8402 with RCA plugs. My comparison was 8402 with XLR plugs vs TEO with RCA plugs, see the link below.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155498.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155498.0)
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I would love to try the Teo XLR's but too steep a price for me. I tried the Cardas Parsecs and they sounded good and they should for almost $400pr although I bought them on sale. The AQ Colombia 72v ($450pr but I bought them for $175pr on closeout) and the 8402's sounded better than the Cardas.
I have been curious about ZenWave XLR's but also a bit pricey.
My money would be better well spent on upgrading my Pass X250 to an X250.5 amp which is in the cards at some point this year.
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My money would be better well spent on upgrading my Pass X250 to an X250.5 amp...
Maybe, and maybe not. Depends on what the weakest link in your system is. Before I bought the TEO's, I was looking at upgrading my Spatial M3ts to Triode Masters for $1200 + shipping. However I spent that money (and then some) on upgrading my cables instead. Based on the difference I can hear between the Belden and the TEO cables, I'm sure glad I put that money into cables instead of speakers. :green: