[andyr]

Wot say U, gents??

I had always believed it was imperative to use insulated wire for signal wires - and by "insulated", I mean teflon coated! - otherwise the bare Cu would become tarnished from exposure to air and this tarnish would degrade the sound.

The main reason I thought that Cu tarnished from exposure to air was that, when renovating, I had seen household mains cable which had turned green underneath the ends of the PVC insulation.

Recently, I became aware of the following ...:

1.  Yes, Cu will tarnish slightly with exposure to air but this oxidation is only a few molecules thick and then stops any further oxidation.  (Unlike iron, whose rust "never sleeps"!!)

2.  The green colouring I had noticed on household mains wiring is due to chlorine leaching from the PVC insulation and attacking the Cu ... not tarnishing due to exposure to air!

3.  If you are using Cat5-sized wire or thinner for signal cabling, the signal is travelling along the complete cross-sectional area of the Cu wire.  The fact that it may not be able to pass through the outermost molecular layers is immaterial.

The only proviso here is that you need to make sure the ends of the wire are clean and shiny, to make good contact before soldering!

4.  "The best dielectric is NO dielectric."  But, even if you think of the outermost "tarnished" molecules of Cu as a dielectric around the pure Cu wire (through which the signal cannot pass), this is so much thinner than the thinnest layer of teflon or polyurethane as to be immeasurable, in terms of its "dielectric effect".

5.  Therefore one should use bare Cu wire for as many of the the signal connections inside an AKSA or GK-1 as possible.  (No, I'm not suggesting you do this for mains or tube wiring!)

What say you, gentlemen, to this astounding conclusion??

Regards,

Andy

[Carlman]

I'll be doing a little experimentation with CCC (continuous cast Cu) wire.  It looks nude but isn't.  It's got a really thin clear sheet of some type of protectant on it.  I'll be replacing my current stock RCA jacks and CAT5e cable with the CCC wire and some OFC Vampire jacks.  Oh, and I'll be using copper-content solder as well.  Should be fun!

The only problem is I won't be able to quickly A/B compare.  Another problem is that I hope to also consolodate this change with Hugh's Nirvana + upgrade.  So, I won't be able to give any kind of comparison on the wire change.  It's a tweak kind of thing that I'm sure will make a small improvement but not enough to 'write home' about.

-C

[Malcolm Fear]

Hi Carlman
By ccc wire, are you talking about Chimera brand? If so, I am very interested in your conclusions of cat 5 versus Chimera.
I have tried it in four strand interconnects and didn't hear a difference compared to four strand cat 5 (both made in the Chimera method).

regards

[Carlman]

Hi Carlman
By ccc wire, are you talking about Chimera brand? If so, I am very interested in your conclusions of cat 5 versus Chimera.
I have tried it in four strand interconnects and didn't hear a difference compared to four strand cat 5 (both made in the Chimera method).

regards

Yes, it's from Chimera.  I honestly don't expect much however Dennis thinks it'll be a signifigant difference.  The OFC jacks may be a little better but I doubt by much... I've experienced improvements using different wire on the high voltage side, though so, you never know....

Your conclusion makes sense to me.  I know the way it's braided is very important.  But overall, it's the same thing.  Continuous Schmintinuous.  They're both nearly pure copper at a similar gauge.  I'll be using 2 leads, just like I am with the CAT5.  Maybe I'll try it before doing the full-blown case move as an experiment.

[Malcolm Fear]

The Chimera site mentions that four strands loosely braided is the go for interconnects, not 2. I have found 4 strand braided better than 2 strand braided (using cat 5). One has to seperate the twisted pairs to do this.
I also found that the Eichmann bullets were the best sounding RCA plug. I haven't tried all plugs, but Eichmanns are great.

[EchiDna]

The only proviso here is that you need to make sure the ends of the wire are clean and shiny, to make good contact before soldering!

er... what about safety, or is that not a proviso to you? your other disadvantage is that uncoated wire physicaly cannot be twisted as a pair (for obvious reasons)... another factor is that the oxidation will increase the edge of the wire dramatically, which may or not be a good thing, in effect, an oxidised wire will have possibly 10x the surface area of an oxidation free one. Personally I've found that the tarnish you describe being only a few molecules thick doesn't apply in humid environments, copper (and brass) oxidise a lot worse here in Singapore for me than they ever did in Melbourne...

[andyr]

er... what about safety, or is that not a proviso to you? .... Personally I've found that the tarnish you describe being only a few molecules thick doesn't apply in humid environments, copper (a ...

C'mon, EchiDna, ya wuss!!  Live dangerously!!

No, seriously, I wasn't suggesting to do this for mains wiring - simply for signal wiring, from RCA sockets to the PCBs.  Of course you can't twist 'hot' and 'ground' wires together if they're both nekkid but you can have the bare 'hot' wire twisted around the teflon of the 'ground' wire.

However, I take your point that humidity has a very great bearing on the rate/extent of tarnishing - maybe I should move to the Tanami desert before I strip all the teflon off??

You say brass also tarnishes in Singapore's humidity ... is this more so than straight copper or less?  The reason I ask is that I've just installed some brass outside lights at my place (beach-side).  I figured ships used to have a lot of brass fittings, so brass lights should last better than the powder-coated aluminium lights which I had previously - with these, the salt air stripped off the powder coat in less than 3 years!  Amazing!!

Regards,

Andy

[Seano]

If you are worried about electrocution or sparking etc. then cover the bare wire in a flat cotton shoelace.  The shoelace is actually a woven cotton tube so when you cut either end you can just slide it over the abre wire. And you can't possibly try and tell me that cotton has any sort of effect on signal whilst covering bare copper!!

[stvnharr]

Malcolm, Carlman,
I currently have all Chimera wire and OFC jacks throughout the audio system, from source player all the way to the speaker drivers.  Signal wires are 2+/2-, for a 4 strand braid, and amplified signals are 8+/8-, for a 16 strand braid.
I think I do have one of the interconnect with Eichmann's, and the other with the Vampire OFC rca's.
I also used this wiring inside my 55N.

I never did a full A/B with anything, just replaced previous high dollar wires as I contructed new ones.   I noticed no difference.   And I like the synergy of the same wire thoughout.

My hearing is likely not acute enough to hear the small differences said to exist in wires.
Also, and this is just my supposition, the 55N has such tight control over the speaker drivers that the little differences in the audio chain before the 55N just aren't as audible as they are in "lesser" amplifiers.

I have no experience with bare cu wire, but Andy's supposition seems to make sense for signal wires.

Steve

[andrewbee]

If you want insulated (varnish insulation that is ) get some old pcb's with inductors on them and unwind. Depending on the inductor you will find different wire gauge's. You can with little effort get the unwound wire quite straight. An easy place to find the inductors is in old computer power supplies.

If you want teflon coated wires you can find some network cable i.e cat5 which is twisted pairs (4 pairs solid copper). Again its computer related so it usually can be had for free from a friend etc,. Make sure to get the network cable and not what is called the patch cord which is stranded, if you want solid core that  is.

Andrew

[Malcolm Fear]

hi andrewbee

Solid core cat 5 comes in pvc coated and the plenum grade which is teflon coated. One has to be careful with this. You cannot buy teflon coated cat5 in Australia. I had to purchase a 1000 foot roll from USA.
I have been into Radio Shack in USA. They have both types. The salespeople don't know the difference, so you have to be careful.

regards

[andyr]

Hi, Malcolm,

Yeah, I bought a 1000' reel too, a coupla years ago!  BTW, Belden also makes 1585LC which has a teflon jacket as well as teflon round each wire.  This is what you can use, as is, for 10 or 20m runs of speaker cable, as you won't want to braid that length!!

I presume you're back from your US trip ... hope U had a great time and visited all the places you wanted.  Did the Teres place turn U on?

Regards,

Andy

[Mark_Walsh]

Hi Folks,

Why not use bare Silver wire.

Available cheap as chips in Australia at:

http://www.aemetal.com.au/precious_fine_silver_round_wire.asp

in 250 and 300 micron sizes.

Just a thought.

Love you all.
MW

[andyr]

Hi Folks,

Why not use bare Silver wire.

Love you all.
MW

Hi, Mark,

I'd be interested in knowing what is the advantage of using Ag over Cu?

It seems to me:

1.  Ag tarnishes more than Cu (just look at your silver cutlery/jewellery/trophies to see what I mean ... although, I might agree that basically - like with bare Cu - this oxidisation might not matter).

2.  It is not available with a teflon coating so, if you really do want to stop oxidisation, you have to paint it with something ... polyurethane, Q-Dope (polystyrene) or some crazy German lacquer called C37.

So, I think the Qu is ... why use Ag?  Wot advantage does it bring?  Au wires, I could understand - given all computer/mobile phone connections are Au-coated - but Ag???

Regards,

Andy

[Malcolm Fear]

Hi Andy
No, we're still in America. Leave Boulder, Colerado today for the pretty bits.
We went to see Chris Brady's setup yesterday. The Teres is a magnificent beast. I love the 255 model (wooden base, perspex platter, both lead filled). It will cost about $3,200 Aus. The first record I saw was "After The Goldrush", by Neil Young. I bought it on vinyl when it came out (perhaps 1971). One of my most played records ever. I bought it on cd, to listen in the car. I know this piece of music backwards. We were astonished at what detail was coming out of Chris's system. You coud hear just so much more. This was a two dollar garage sale record. Not a special pressing.
We then ended up listening to Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitsgeral, a new pressing of the old classic. It stands as the best thing I have ever heard. Chris then started demonstrating the differences that can be heard by changing from a plastic record clamp to a wooden one. Wood is so much better. He then changed from a mylar (recording tape) belt to a silk thread. The mylar sounded better.
The morning was a huge experience for me.

No he doesn't have an AKSA.

On the wire front, we went and spent a day at Scott Fallon's place in St Louis. I took a pair of my cat 5, Eichmann terminated leads. They stood up well against Scott's silver plated copper multistrand teflon coated wire. Scott gave some of his wire. I will make it up when I get back. I will loan it out to those who want to have a listen. Had a great day at Scott's. I heard Lowthers, single ended flea power amps and the tjoeb valve cd player.

regards

[kyrill]

Hi, Mark,

I'd be interested in knowing what is the advantage of using Ag over Cu?

It seems to me:

1.  Ag tarnishes more than Cu (just look at your silver cutlery/jewellery/trophies to see what I mean ... although, I might agree that basically - like with bare Cu - this oxidisation might not matter).

2.  It is not available with a teflon coating so, if you really do want to stop oxidisation, you have to paint it with something ... polyurethane, Q-Dope (polystyrene) or some crazy German lacquer ca ...

Silver wire has a significant lower electrical resistance compared to copper. On the other hand some notice it has also a different sound signature, more bright and revealing like halogeen lamps compared to sunlight in the morning  (copper wire)

[Mark_Walsh]

Teflon coated silver wire IS available... will get back to you with URL's.

It is used for imlanting electrodes in cells and into nervous systems of laboratory animals.

Regards,
MarkW

[kyrill]

You can even get cotton sleeve "coated" pure silverwire.
I would go for that option. And while we are on the atomic route, why not coat the cotton with C47, I mean C37?

If you go for the extreme, don't hesitate and take the deep plunge.
Non conformism is where heaven extends itself. True for hell too, of course. But he difference betwen H&H is to easy to miss.

[andyr]

You can even get cotton sleeve "coated" pure silverwire.
I would go for that option. And while we are on the atomic route, why not coat the cotton with C47?
....

Kyrill,

Why not just coat the silver with C37 and leave out the cotton?  One less dielectric degradation of the signal?

[brj]

I take it that C37 and C47 are some sort of lacquer?  What is the difference between them, and what does a lacquer do differently than more common insulations or dialectrics?

Thanks!