AudioCircle
Industry Circles => NuPrime Audio => Topic started by: John Casler on 30 Dec 2014, 08:33 am
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New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
CLICK HERE for the link to the New Review (http://www.goodsound.com/index.php/2-uncategorised/607-nuprime-ida-16-integrated-amplifier-dac) (Jan 1 2015)
(http://www.goodsound.com/images/stories/equipment2/201501_ida16_black.png)
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Would be good, if you can make same amp with more power, let's say IDA-20.
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Would be good, if you can make same amp with more power, let's say IDA-20.
I can't say what is "coming down the line", but having lived with the IDA-16 for some time with some rather power hungry speaker (VMPS RM-40) I can say it "seems" to be more powerful, than 200wpc. (before this I was running 335wpc on my Mid/Tweet section and 525wpc on the woofers, and didn't notice much sonic difference at normal listening levels)
That said, the current potential alternatives, would be to go with the DAC-10 or DAC-10H and a pair of ST-10 (150wpc x 2) if your speakers have the ability to bi-amp.
Then of course there is always the REF-18 (335wpc) and REF-20 (420wpc)
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This sure reads like a rave review to me.
Can't understand why it wasn't made a 'recommended component' after apositive review like this?!
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John,
After living with the IDA16 for some time, what are your longer term user impressions?
I'm thinking you use this as your main rig?
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John,
After living with the IDA16 for some time, what are your longer term user impressions?
I'm thinking you use this as your main rig?
Hi Bill,
Long term has not changed and I continue to marvel at the amp section and its power with my speakers.
I think the only way to maybe get an improvement, is to go with separates, which is what I am doing shortly, with the DAC-10 and a pair of Monoblocs.
That said, if anyone missed it, and I will make an announcement soon, the MSRP of the IDA-16, which is currently still at the introductory $2350 will be going to $2500 shortly.
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So, ref 18 is more powerful than IDA. I was looking only Watts.
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A useful combination. :thumb:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AKepdwV4OY
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i agree with John and the reviewer in there assessment of the IDA 16. I think I got mine sometime in August and initially used it with Goldenear Triton Sevens which together IMHO performed way beyond their price point. Very clean sound with excellent imaging and bass control. Recently I received my main speakers back from Vapor audio with extensive upgrades. They were originally the Cirrus, now they have an upgraded midrange from Audio Technology and bass cabinet with a 11" audio tech woofer and we upgraded the caps to Dueland RS. I also added two PS Audio components the DSD and Transport. While the speakers are still breaking in the IDA 16 used as an amp controls this speaker extremely well. The bass is subterranean, imaging is absolutely unbelievable. I did feel the sound was a little clinical at times, I was using an Ifi purifier and an IFi power in the chain. Yesterday I removed the purifier and the sound became more musical and the soundstage opened up even more. I believe the DSD may not like the Purifier. I'm going to play with it a little more. One of my favorite test CDs is a cd by Kip Hanrahan "The First and Last To Love Me" it is almost x rated in lyrics but it has some terrific interplay between vocals and instruments. On a very good system it is almost spooky during quite passages. The IDA 16 and PS DSD without the purifier sounded fantastic on the absolutely awesome Vapor speakers. Finally for me the amp never sounded strained, power is ample and clean a bargain at the price.
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So, ref 18 is more powerful than IDA. I was looking only Watts.
Yes the IDA-16 is a strong 200 wpc. the REF-18 is 335 wpc
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I am not certain, but I think there should be an IDA-16 review quite soon, in ABSOLUTE SOUND (maybe the next issue)
I know I was "in contact" with a reviewer a couple months ago regarding questions he had for the review.
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Can anyone read French text ? If so, can you read the IDA-16 review shown on pages 60 and 62 out of the December 2014 issue of Stereo Prestige & Image and tell us what it says ? :green: If you scroll down, you will see the pages.
Thanks
Bruce
http://next-audio.blogspot.com/ (http://next-audio.blogspot.com/)
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John,
The IDA-16 looks pretty impressive. I just sent the link to the review to my buddy who is considering a competitor's similar (but considerably more expensive) product.
:thumb:
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John,
The IDA-16 looks pretty impressive. I just sent the link to the review to my buddy who is considering a competitor's similar (but considerably more expensive) product.
:thumb:
Yes, as a dealer for NuPRIME, I have a few who were looking at some very high priced alternatives and opted to go with the IDA-16 and are VERY HAPPY. :thumb:
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For those of you thinking of possibly upgrading from the DDA-100 to the IDA-16, but not sure if the improvement is worth the extra cost, I believe it is well worth it and then some. I've been listening to the IDA-16 for the last three days and have been thrilled with the sound. The DDA is ultra resolving of low level detail at its price point, but the trade off is a somewhat cool, austere quality in the mids and treble. It is a great unit for the money, actually unbeatable I believe, but the IDA is oh so much better. Compared to the DDA-100, the IDA 16 is far more resolving while at the same time exhibiting zero grain or edge, has a huge 3D soundstage, has amazing bass control, still sounds fully fleshed out and engaging even at very low volume levels, it just has a rightness about the sound that draws you in and holds your attention. All buzzwords and descriptions aside, it just sounds a whole lot like real music. The true test of a good or bad system is simple, do you feel a sense or relief when you switch it off, or do you daydream about getting back home so you can turn it on ? The IDA-16 is a winner. :thumb:
Bruce
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That "rightness" to the sound that Bruce speaks of is due to its amazing balance and neutrality.
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This sure reads like a rave review to me.
Can't understand why it wasn't made a 'recommended component' after apositive review like this?!
This review has just been published. I think there is a dateline for Recommended Component.
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.. almost spooky during quite passages. The IDA 16 and PS DSD without the purifier sounded fantastic on the absolutely awesome Vapor speakers. Finally for me the amp never sounded strained, power is ample and clean a bargain at the price.
Why not just go with computer and IDA-16 only? It already has the DSD DAC.
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I’m the owner of modern sounds, a new on-line audio store dedicated to the computer audiophile and leading edge audio technologies. We recently launched our web store on December 12, 2014 and made our first sale the following day. It was for the NuPrime Audio IDA-16 digital integrated amplifier.
This integrated amplifier is an excellent example of what modern technology can bring to the world of audio. It has an integrated DAC that can decode anything I’m aware of, a built in preamp with a line input for another source, and a 200W class D amplifier that sounds far superior to separate components that far exceed it’s very reasonable price.
Our first customer replaced an Aesthetix preamplifier, a pair of Wyetech Labs mono block amplifiers and all associated cabling including interconnect and power products. In all, several thousand dollars worth of equipment. The NuPrime Audio IDA-16 simply sounds better and it does so at a fraction of the cost of traditional audiophile products.
Another customer replaced a Jolida tube amplifier and you can read his comments on our web site that can be found here - http://www.modernsounds.com/blogs/reviews-testimonials If you scroll to the very bottom you will find his comments just after the SoundStage review of the IDA-16.
We have three other customers who have yet to add their comments but by all accounts, everyone is clearly impressed with the sound of this new audio company and their impressive digital integrated amplifier.
Another curious thing to note are the speakers some people are using with it. Brian, my associate in Quebec, is using his IDA-16 to drive a pair of Martin Logan, Summit X speakers. That’s an electrostatic speaker that lists for $14,995 USD. The sound of the IDA-16 driving that speaker is the best sound he has heard and by a wide margin. That speaker should be fairly revealing and if there were any issues at all they would likely show up clearly yet he reports that he can find no fault with the sound quality of that unit.
I even experimented hooking it up to my Sound Lab A-1PX electrostatic loudspeakers just to hear what such a combination might deliver. That’s an integrated amplifier at $2,350 USD list driving a pair of statement speakers that list for $31,100 a pair. Although I did not push the amplifier hard, as the Sound Labs can dip to around 1 ohm, it delivered very impressive sound. I later found out that the Martin Logan speaker Brian is using drops down to 0.8 ohms and he can drive it to any volume so likely I was being timid when clearly I didn’t have to be. This amplifier can deliver and it can do so on a very impressive scale!
This is a formula I have been working through with a number of local audiophiles. Although it sometimes involves other components and sometimes involves separates like the NuPrime Audio DAC-10 and the NuForce Reference 20 amplifiers, we are using statement speakers on a pure digital system with remarkable results. Far superior to any analog playback I have yet encountered and I was using Studer A820 Master Recorders with reel-to-reel tape just a few short years ago. The sound of a modern digital system is simply far superior to any analog system and it accomplishes this at a fraction of the cost.
We now have three large scale installations using NuForce products within the first few weeks of the new year. Two feature the new NuForce Reference 20 amplifiers and one features the older NuForce Reference 9V3SE mono blocks. All are pure digital high-resolution systems using statement speakers. The IDA-16 is capable of producing remarkably realistic music and it represents a new family of products I’m sure we are going to be hearing more about. They are simple, elegant solutions that perform better than anything in the price range. For anyone looking to enter the world of computer audio, the IDA-16 is a great entry point and for anyone who has the opportunity to own one, they will have an extremely enjoyable system for years to come.
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If John didn't post it on his Facebook, I almost missed this wonderful review:
http://totallywired.co.nz/nuprime_ida_16.html (http://totallywired.co.nz/nuprime_ida_16.html)
Extract from the review:
So we have come to the conclusion (which we may well yet go further on), that much of what we are hearing when listening to digital sources through the IDA-16 is not in fact from the higher resolution promised by the specification of the DAC section, but from the attributes of the amplifier - both pre and power sections. And that the IDA-16 can't be pigeon-holed as a 'digital' product. Regardless of your most favoured format, this is a new amplifier that really demands your attention and offers remarkable value for those who appreciate the best of both analogue and digital.
The NuPrime IDA-16 delivers more sound quality, power and sophistication than any other DAC and amplifier combination, digital or analogue we've heard regardless of cost. This isn't a statement we make without a lot of consideration and listening. NuPrime have delivered a remarkable product at a better-than-fair price that you'll be thrilled to own, both now and for years to come.
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I've been listening to my IDA-16 for almost a month now, and I am still beyond happy with the sound. When I think of digital audio, I think about terms like hard, synthetic, sterile, dry, unnatural, shrill, harsh, and in the not too distant past that was to a certain degree correct. The sonic signature of the IDA-16 is about as far opposite in nature from those descriptives as I could possibly imagine. It just plain sounds real, organic, clean, clear, transparent, or add whatever word you want to describe the sound of reality. If you have a descent pair of speakers that you are thinking of upgrading, I would suggest getting the IDA-16 first. My PSB Image B25s have risen to a level of quality with the IDA that is remarkable. Once you have the IDA, then you are in a position to go with any speaker you want, all the way up to any level. I think the IDA-16 is a game changer, and any notion that class D amps don't sound good is ABSOLUTELY laid to rest with this unit.
Bruce
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New Review of IDA-16 Integrated Digital Amp and DAC
CLICK HERE for the link to the New Review (http://www.goodsound.com/index.php/2-uncategorised/607-nuprime-ida-16-integrated-amplifier-dac) (Jan 1 2015)
(http://www.goodsound.com/images/stories/equipment2/201501_ida16_black.png)
John, Is the amp section a direct digital type like the NAD 390DD or Core Kratos?
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John, Is the amp section a direct digital type like the NAD 390DD or Core Kratos?
No, there is a preamp, DAC and power amp module inside. The direct digital type works for low power but after the experience with NuForce DDA-100, I don't think the topology works well as a general purpose design. We are planning a series of NuPrime IDA models so separating them allow us to optimize each module in performance, power and cost.
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No, there is a preamp, DAC and power amp module inside. The direct digital type works for low power but after the experience with NuForce DDA-100, I don't think the topology works well as a general purpose design. We are planning a series of NuPrime IDA models so separating them allow us to optimize each module in performance, power and cost.
Can you tell us if the output module is proprietary to NuPrime, or a modified Hypex/ICE? It seems your switching frequency is higher than most other Class D amps, is that what separates the IDA-16 from the pack? Power supply is SMPS? I see the DAC employed is the Sabre 9018, how is it implemented? I appreciate the volume control approach, not in the digital domain. So we can look forward to models above and below the IDA-16? Sorry to dig deep, but I am very interested in the product, it will solve many issues neatly and easily, eliminate cables, and it looks great as well.
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No, there is a preamp, DAC and power amp module inside. The direct digital type works for low power but after the experience with NuForce DDA-100, I don't think the topology works well as a general purpose design. We are planning a series of NuPrime IDA models so separating them allow us to optimize each module in performance, power and cost.
The DDA-100 was the type of direct digital product I thought the IDA-16 was, but I see the DDA-100 is like the Kratos & 390DD, and the IDA-16 is completely different. I read Steven Stone's review of the DDA-100 and he loved the sonics but only 50 watts, so NuPrime's experience with DD amplification is that it lends itself to lower output levels and does not scale up in power effectively? Is the IDA-16 the only NuPrime/NuForce product that uses it's 600mz switching regime?
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Can you tell us if the output module is proprietary to NuPrime, or a modified Hypex/ICE? It seems your switching frequency is higher than most other Class D amps, is that what separates the IDA-16 from the pack? Power supply is SMPS? I see the DAC employed is the Sabre 9018, how is it implemented? I appreciate the volume control approach, not in the digital domain. So we can look forward to models above and below the IDA-16? Sorry to dig deep, but I am very interested in the product, it will solve many issues neatly and easily, eliminate cables, and it looks great as well.
I can't answer "all" your questions but a couple:
Yes the NuPRIME amps are totally proprietary.
No they are NOT the Hypex/ICE or other commercially available boards.
Only rustydoglim is able to comment on yet to be released models, but they are exciting. :thumb:
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I can tell you from first hand experience that the IDA-16 is a far better sounding unit than the DDA-100, a ton more resolving, while at the same time very soothing to the ears, and with a CD player as the source, I feel no need at the present time to go to hi-rez. There is more high end sound on a good example of the lowly CD than you might think when it is fed into the proper DAC and amp. On down the road I don't know if my next upgrade will be speakers or hi-rez, but with the IDA-16 I'm ready. A lot of hi end advertising is pure BS, but the NuPrime sound on the other hand is as good as what is being said about it in the positive reviews.
Bruce
The DDA-100 was the type of direct digital product I thought the IDA-16 was, but I see the DDA-100 is like the Kratos & 390DD, and the IDA-16 is completely different. I read Steven Stone's review of the DDA-100 and he loved the sonics but only 50 watts, so NuPrime's experience with DD amplification is that it lends itself to lower output levels and does not scale up in power effectively? Is the IDA-16 the only NuPrime/NuForce product that uses it's 600mz switching regime?
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I see NuPrime's head quarters is located in Los Angeles, are the products including the IDA-16 made in L.A. as well or over seas somewhere like China, etc.?
Thanks!
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Taiwan I believe.
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No, there is a preamp, DAC and power amp module inside. The direct digital type works for low power but after the experience with NuForce DDA-100, I don't think the topology works well as a general purpose design. We are planning a series of NuPrime IDA models so separating them allow us to optimize each module in performance, power and cost.
Jason, would you mind expanding on why you don't feel the direct digital design works for higher power? I loved the DDA-100, and was thinking about an NAD C390DD, but of course these new products of yours are making me question my plans. 8)
Additionally, does the IDA-16 utilize an ADC for the analog input? I thought I read that it did somewhere but can't seem to find it again...if it does, what is the sample rate?
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Hi, I can only answer design related questions that are not "how is it implemented".
The direct digital design has its limitation due to the availability of the chip, and also when modulation and demodulation is done in the digital domain, it is harder to optimize for power. When DDA-100 was designed, it achieved a great milestone in combination of sound quality, cost and design elegance. It is a very beautiful product. But NuPrime has since made significant breakthrough in not simply class-D amplifier design, but also switching power supply. This will become apparent in the next few months when you see a flood of new products. Therefore we are now able to come up with something much better and still cost less than $1K.
Ref 20 power supply was the beginning of the renewed R&D effort.
Here's our product positioning:
Ref 20 (this will be the last product that is called NuForce, all future models will be called NuPrime) and other future products that carry the Reference name are the top of the line.
ST-10 and DAC-10H are one level above IDA-16.
And then what's coming in April are a whole line of < $1K products.
You will find that the "home/desktop" series are seriously good. Basically we are raising the bar again for what is considered high-end. Today's $800 integrated amp can sound as good as a $5000 integrated ten years ago. We know that from the progress of every generation of products since 2005.
Well, the high-end home theater products should be shipping in May too.
I don't recall IDA-16 using ADC since it has resistor network preamp. It was the DDA that uses ADC.
Jason, would you mind expanding on why you don't feel the direct digital design works for higher power? I loved the DDA-100, and was thinking about an NAD C390DD, but of course these new products of yours are making me question my plans. 8)
You will really regret it if you don't wait another two months. That's all I can say.
Many high-end brands put Hypex or Icepower in a fancy box, add a linear power supply for differentiation. Some others use off-the-shelf switching power supply. High power, high quality, low noise switching power supply or class-D amp is very difficult to design. That's why there are only a handful of companies in the world doing that. I am quite sure we are the only high-end audio company that actually designs all our amplifier and power supply in-house.
In our opinion, linear PSU is good for lower power design due to cost saving. High-end switching power supply can be made low noise, and it has the speed advantages at high power (obviously it becomes expensive). There is no doubt anymore that our class-D amp can go head to head with any solid state or tube amp, and you can't tell that it is class-D. One of you noticed that IDA-16 is switching at frequency much higher than other amps. That's right. It is extremely difficult to do. 600kHz switching freq gives you such extreme resolution that you are not able to tell that it is class-D amp.
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Since the IDA-16 uses an ES9018 Sabre DAC, and an analog resistor ladder volume control, I'll bet it does not have an ADC. I just re-read the SoundStage review and found this; Because the IDA-16’s front end is inherently digital (the analog connection uses an A/D converter), conventional analog preamp circuitry is not needed. So according to Vince Hanada, the analog input gets an ADC.
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Yes I remember reading that paragraph. I need to confirm with the engineer who is on vacation.
I forgot if I fed the wrong info to Soundstage or there is indeed an ADC for analog input. I dealt with too many products (and brands) so I can't remember the details.
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I have discovered something about the IDA-16 that is of particular significance IMO. In my listening room, the PSB Image B25 speakers I use have always sounded better placed very close to the rear wall, but with past class A amps there has been a bass boom problem that forced me to pull them out more than was ideal. The DDA-100 was much better in this regard, but the IDA-16 almost totally eliminates the boom issue. I don't know if the high damping factor of the amp is the reason for this, but it has made a huge difference for me in speaker placement options. If you have a problematic bass room and are using a single set of speakers, the IDA-16 might go a long way toward either solving, or greatly helping the issue.
Bruce