Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?

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Matt Cooney

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Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« on: 16 Apr 2023, 07:31 am »
Hi,

I have an early Golden Gate that was recently upgraded to near GG3 specs - nice sounding DAC and I am happy.  I think AES/EBU sounds better than USB - a little more refined, but also slightly smaller and darker.  I'm wondering if the slight..edge...in the USB sound could be remedied with a reclocker...and if so does anyone have any experience with one of the budget options, as contrasted with the Innuous Phoenix (which looks like the common reference source).

Thanks
Matt
« Last Edit: 16 Apr 2023, 03:49 pm by Matt Cooney »

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #1 on: 16 Apr 2023, 04:48 pm »
I have heard the Innuous and the Aqua LinQ.  Both sound excellent.  I recently bought a JCat usb card which made a huge improvement in my systems sound.  Just something to consider.  I was also considering buying a Singxer reclocker.  I am using an older version of the JCat card that I found used for a great price.

https://apos.audio/products/singxer-su-6-usb-digital-interface?_pos=2&_sid=ad4c46e21&_ss=r

https://jcat.eu/product/usb-card-femto-audiophile-usb-audio-output/

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=185660.msg1946652#msg1946652

WGH

Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #2 on: 16 Apr 2023, 07:01 pm »
I'm wondering if the slight..edge...in the USB sound could be remedied with a reclocker...

What is front of the Golden Gate? I upsample all music to DSD256 using HQPlayer, the result is no USB digital edge without changing the highs. My music server also has an audiophile approved USB card with a linear power supply + Hapa Audio Aero CU USB cable. It all makes a difference and each individual improvement adds up.

Recently made 16bit/44.1 CD's and compared the sound to the hi-res originals using the HoloAudio may KTE DAC. The CD sound had the same slight edge you mention.

We listened to the same CDs at an audio get together yesterday. The system had Joseph Audio speakers, a beautiful Luxman 509X integrated amp, PS Audio Memory Player and DirectStream MKII DAC.
I heard the slight edge again. Music on vinyl or using an Auralic streamer did not have an edge.

I never tried or felt a need for a re-clocker and instead concentrated on keeping the source as clean as possible. All those extra boxes need extra cables too and my old Radio Shack RCAs just don't cut it anymore.

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #3 on: 16 Apr 2023, 08:39 pm »
Consider the Innuous (or Synergistic) network switch instead of the reclocker in front of your bridge. It's simply amazing the crap it removes from digital data.

Matt Cooney

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Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #4 on: 16 Apr 2023, 09:01 pm »
What is front of the Golden Gate? I upsample all music to DSD256 using ...

Thanks all.  In front of the DAC is a Bryston BDP2. which should be a pretty quiet source.  It is my Roon endpoint.  I'm embarrassed to say that since I have the DAC back, I have just been using PCM.  I used to use Roon (the internal DSP and not HQPlayer) to present DSD to the Lampi and I really need to try that again before considering any new gear.  I was having trouble with another DAC and was told to turn off Roon DSP, so I have just been satisfying myself with 44.1 PCM and no "unnecessary processing." Am not setup for HQplayer, but will give DSD via Roon a try....

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #5 on: 16 Apr 2023, 10:28 pm »
I upsample using Audirvana or Bug Head Infinity Blade.  44.1 to 176. or 352.  It smooths out the digital edginess.  I also upsample 96K recordings to 192K.  I have used HQ player with the same results.

whydontumarryit

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Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #6 on: 16 Apr 2023, 10:57 pm »
If the Golden Gate isn't defective then it is probably just noise that you are hearing on USB. What did the reviews show performance wise?
The ifi iPurifier3 USB Filter is only $150, this or something like it should do the job. Can you afford not to give it a try?

WGH

Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #7 on: 17 Apr 2023, 01:26 am »
If the Golden Gate isn't defective then it is probably just noise that you are hearing on USB. What did the reviews show performance wise?
The ifi iPurifier3 USB Filter is only $150, this or something like it should do the job...

I was one of the beta testers for the Hapa Audio Aero USB cable. The cable was initially sent with an iFi iSilencer+ and iPurifer 3 as a package, the theory was the filters would improve the sound.

Both Mike Galusha and I listened to the AerØ USB cable with and without the iFi iSilencer+ and iPurifer 3. I tried them but they just didn't add anything to the music, the iFi devices slightly dulled the sound. The difference was obvious on the first track of Ani DiFranco's album "Revolutionary Love", the triangle lost it's edge and sparkle. Bert Kamsteeg's soft brushwork on the drums was less apparent on Carmen Gomes' album "Up Jumped the Devil". My music server has a Paul Pang USB 3.0 V2 card with a 5v Acopian PS that has 1 mV RMS ripple.

I have come across this before when I reviewed the Audioquest Jitterbug, Uptone Regen and Intona so I wasn't surprised the IFi devices didn't work for me. Once the power supply is upgraded all the filters degrade the sound. Nobody in our Tucson Audio Group uses them anymore.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=138707.msg1476956#msg1476956

Both iFi units were well burned-in. When I first tried them I was not pleased, Jason said they needed 150 hours break-in. I put together a low-end, hi-tech burn-in rig that can run 24/7 using parts hanging around my office. The Toshiba laptop is from Nov. 2008, it is so old it came with Windows Vista. I did a clean install to Windows 7 with a retail disk that was in my library then the free upgrade to Windows 10 v20H2. The laptop's switching power supply probably makes the USB output real noisy giving the two iFi's a real good workout.

After over 150 hours of burn-in it didn't help.

The cleaner the source the more damage these filters do.


whydontumarryit

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Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #8 on: 17 Apr 2023, 01:57 am »
The cleaner the source the more damage these filters do.

That was the case, schiit modi 2 noise was reduced about 20db with the ifi. The properly made modi 3 showed no improvement with the ifi and actually produced more jitter using it. In fact, the modi 2 was so inept at reproduction that you could actually hear the difference when swapping cables.

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #9 on: 17 Apr 2023, 02:09 am »
The cleaner the source the more damage these filters do.

That was the case, schiit modi 2 noise was reduced about 20db with the ifi. The properly made modi 3 showed no improvement with the ifi and actually produced more jitter using it. In fact, the modi 2 was so inept at reproduction that you could actually hear the difference when swapping cables.

I can tell you that I know of several excellent DAC's that sound different using different usb cables, including my Luxman and Chord Qutest DAC and a friends T+A DSD and Holo May DAC's.  USB cables sound remarkably different in these DAC's.  Are these DAC's not made properly? :?

The Regen with a nice LPS makes a nice difference with the Qutest and my Luxman.

Matt Cooney

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Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #10 on: 17 Apr 2023, 03:36 am »
Gents, did a bit more experimenting tonight, and concluded: AES/EBU sounding really, really nice with this DAC.  USB a little more fatiguing.  I tried DSD128 through Roon and no material difference in my mind (that is a whole other story, in that I don't understand how Roon can be presenting 128 or 256 DSD from my crappy old laptop core, when I understand that HQPlayer needs some beefy compute resources to do the same thing better.... if they are even doing the same thing....).

I dunno here - I have had a number of people tell me that AES/EBU simply sounds better through a lot of DACs, and that certainly seems to be the case with this Lampi and my ARC DAC9. If USB has the potential to be even better, it is not clear to me based on all things I've read how to build an optimal USB pipeline - a lot of different opinions on how to make USB sound good. 

I may be at the "Shut up and enjoy the music" point with my system on AES/EBU.  I need to go to an audio show to see if other systems sound materially better, and we have local tech expert in the area (TrueAudio) who does house calls - may want to see if he sees opportunities.  I may be done for awhile.   Thanks for all your input!  I'm running:

Roon -> Bryston BDP2 -> Lampi (nearly) GG3 -> ARC Ref5se preamp -> ARC Ref75se amp -> Harbeth 40.2.  Cables are all custom made from Signal Cable - not exotic but good quality to my estimation.   


WGH

Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #11 on: 17 Apr 2023, 04:13 am »
AES/EBU sounding really, really nice with this DAC.  USB a little more fatiguing...  from my crappy old laptop core

Roon -> Bryston BDP2 -> Lampi (nearly) GG3 -> ARC Ref5se preamp -> ARC Ref75se amp -> Harbeth 40.2.  Cables are all custom made from Signal Cable - not exotic but good quality to my estimation.

Glad you found a (temporary) solution.

The "crappy old laptop" is your USB problem. Laptops are not designed as music servers, they are actually the worst possible source, and have terrible electrical noise and jitter, as you are finding out. The USB filters I disparage are made as a band-aid to hide the problem but they don't solve it. Your Lampi deserves better.

Quote
I don't understand how Roon can be presenting 128 or 256 DSD from my crappy old laptop core, when I understand that HQPlayer needs some beefy compute resources to do the same thing better.... if they are even doing the same thing....).

HQPlayer's developer Jussi Laako has answered your question in HQPlayer Audiophile Style forum:

"Because you can reach the same goal in many ways, if you just want "DSD1024" [or DSD256] and are not picky about actual quality.

"You can do it easily if you lower the quality bar and consider something "good enough". DAC chips do similar thing these days too. So the usual approach, like DAC chips do is to first have some platform (FPGA or on-chip DSP) and then make processing that can run on that what ever limited amount of resources you have. For example DAC chips run proper digital filter up to 8x rate and they they just repeat the same sample value 128 times to make up 1024 "rate" for the modulator. Or some more fancy chip like Chord DAC FPGA runs digital filter to 16x rate and then does linear interpolation (argh) to 2048 "rate".

"While I prefer to do things vice versa, first make specifications of what I consider "perfect" result and then make processing that reaches the wanted quality level and runs as fast as possible. And then you need to buy hardware that can run it. I don't tailor the algorithm to run on any specific hardware, the hardware needs to be tailored to run the algorithm.

"For Chord's million taps to 256x which is best they can do now, you can run 16 million taps on cheap GTX 1060 GPU to 512x in comparison... (and it's less than 25% load on that GPU) Like the number of taps alone would matter in first place...

"Most FPGA's do processing in fixed point and at lower resolution. I do processing in 64/80-bit floating point. Making an FPGA do complex floating point processing already takes immense amount of FPGA space. And I would never resort to something like repeating samples or linear interpolation to reach the target rate."

Matt Cooney

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Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #12 on: 17 Apr 2023, 06:44 am »
Glad you found a (temporary) solution.

The "crappy old laptop" is your USB problem. Laptops are not designed as music servers, they are actually the worst possible source, and have terrible electrical noise and jitter, as you are finding out. The USB filters I disparage are made as a band-aid to hide the problem but they don't solve it. Your Lampi deserves better.

HQPlayer's developer Jussi Laako has answered your question in HQPlayer Audiophile Style forum:

"Because you can reach the same goal in many ways, if you just want "DSD1024" [or DSD256] and are not picky about actual quality.

"You can do it easily if you lower the quality bar and consider something "good enough". DAC chips do similar thing these days too. So the usual approach, like DAC chips do is to first have some platform (FPGA or on-chip DSP) and then make processing that can run on that what ever limited amount of resources you have. For example DAC chips run proper digital filter up to 8x rate and they they just repeat the same sample value 128 times to make up 1024 "rate" for the modulator. Or some more fancy chip like Chord DAC FPGA runs digital filter to 16x rate and then does linear interpolation (argh) to 2048 "rate".

"While I prefer to do things vice versa, first make specifications of what I consider "perfect" result and then make processing that reaches the wanted quality level and runs as fast as possible. And then you need to buy hardware that can run it. I don't tailor the algorithm to run on any specific hardware, the hardware needs to be tailored to run the algorithm.

"For Chord's million taps to 256x which is best they can do now, you can run 16 million taps on cheap GTX 1060 GPU to 512x in comparison... (and it's less than 25% load on that GPU) Like the number of taps alone would matter in first place...

"Most FPGA's do processing in fixed point and at lower resolution. I do processing in 64/80-bit floating point. Making an FPGA do complex floating point processing already takes immense amount of FPGA space. And I would never resort to something like repeating samples or linear interpolation to reach the target rate."

WGH help me on the laptop part - the laptop is my Roon core.  It send instructions wirelessly back to the router, which then has an ethernet cable run across the room and into the Bryston.  The Bryston is basically like a second computer, catching HTTP and converting it to digital audio.  I figured the first laptop could have all the internal noise in the world, and that should not matter; the Bryston gets 0s and 1s from the router, and it is not "connected" to the first laptop in any way that should matter for SQ - am I off here?

Tyson

Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #13 on: 17 Apr 2023, 03:10 pm »
Yes the quality of the server matters.  For Roon you really should set up a NUC using a linear power supply and only running ROCK.  That will clean up the digital signal considerably.

WGH

Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #14 on: 17 Apr 2023, 03:45 pm »
WGH help me on the laptop part - the laptop is my Roon core.  It send instructions wirelessly back to the router, which then has an ethernet cable run across the room and into the Bryston.

I'm not familiar with the Bryston BDP2 and didn't know there is a wireless connection, I assumed the laptop was connected to the BDP2 using a USB cable. Noise over wireless is a topic I never explored.

The Absolute Sound has a Bryston BDP2 review where the reviewer basically says pick the output (AES/EBU or USB) that sounds the best.
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/bryston-bdp-2-digital-player/
 

Matt Cooney

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Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #15 on: 17 Apr 2023, 04:31 pm »
To be sure, this Bryston BDP is receiving signal via ethernet cable on my LAN, not wireless (which is a feature in BDP3).  The "wireless" part is that my Roon core (Laptop) is wirelessly interacting with my router.  I know that connecting a noisy laptop to DAC (or likely to the Bryston) with a cable would add noise.  But there is no such connection here, so I think it is really a matter of what sounds better with the Bryston (AES moreso than USB). 

*Tyson,* please clarify if your comment assumes a physical connection between the Roon core and the rest of the chain.  I'm thinking that with my configuration as I described it, any noisiness in the Roon core laptop should not matter.  The Bryston gets its 0s and 1s via LAN, and the Roon core touches the LAN only wirelessly.

Thanks,
Matt

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #16 on: 17 Apr 2023, 05:00 pm »
Matt, I went from using a high end laptop as my music server to a custom built desktop that I personally built.  I used a low ripple and low noise power supply, good cables and a MOBO with better capacitors.  All the fans are Noctua low noise, no video card or monitor, and a modular, insulated low noise mid tower case.  SSD's instead of standard HD's. I remote in using windows desktop using a laptop or tablet to control Audirvana. 

The improvement in sound quality was fabulous, darker background, more detail and resolution and more musicality.  I was shocked at the difference the new computer made. Even using shielded SATA cables improved clarity (this was a real eye opener).  The icing on the cake was adding the JCat usb card and a Wire World platinum usb cable which further refined the sound.

If you are using AES, stick with it.  It is supposed to sound better than usb.  Before I recently bought the JCat card and platinum usb cable I was thinking about the Singxer reclocker and using the AES out to my DAC.  I still may give it a try.

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #17 on: 17 Apr 2023, 05:03 pm »
The noise is on your network. Your bridge (Bryston) is sensitive to it. The music should be stored on a NAS (or dedicated audio server) in WAV or uncompressed FLAC not a laptop or PC. There should be a dedicated Roon core on the network as mentioned, and right before your bridge there should be a high quality switch as mentioned previously that will dramatically reduce the network noise just before it gets to the bridge. This is a pretty standard way to get better than spinning cd sound over the network.

Don't worry about upsampling or HQ Player now (imo), that's it's own rabbit hole.  You've got nice components there and a revealing dac. It's revealing noise on your network (imo).

Tyson

Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #18 on: 17 Apr 2023, 05:07 pm »
The noise is on your network. Your bridge (Bryston) is sensitive to it. The music should be stored on a NAS (or dedicated audio server) in WAV or uncompressed FLAC not a laptop or PC. There should be a dedicated Roon core on the network as mentioned, and right before your bridge there should be a high quality switch as mentioned previously that will dramatically reduce the network noise just before it gets to the bridge. This is a pretty standard way to get better than spinning cd sound over the network.

Don't worry about upsampling or HQ Player now (imo), that's it's own rabbit hole.  You've got nice components there and a revealing dac. It's revealing noise on your network (imo).

+1

GregC

Re: Anyone Using a Reclocker with Good Results?
« Reply #19 on: 17 Apr 2023, 07:58 pm »
I used a Kitsune SingXer SU-1 to convert USB (from a laptop) to I2S with good results.  The Kitsune has an upgraded internal linear power supply.  I also tried AES output and it worked well too.     

I am selling my Kitsune now because of a system change to reduce the number of boxes and simplify things.  I ended up getting a Mano Ultra MkIIA streamer (running Moode OS).  I stream LMS on my NAS to the Mano that is setup as a Squeezelite client.  I run I2S output from the Mano directly into my W4S DAC.  I am very happy with my setup, but it is limited to 192/24 playback (which works for my needs).