Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!

S Clark · « **Reply #140 on:** 2 Jan 2020, 08:47 pm »

Quote from: Tyson on 1 Jan 2020, 03:23 am

Line Force is better than the Super 7 in every single way. That is an astonishingly great speaker.

I plan to do a full writeup of all the speakers I got to hear at Danny's this past week. It might be a few days before I get to it though.

Yep. After hearing the prototype I returned home to listen to my LS9s which are, like your 7's, great speakers. They absolutely sounded slow. Slow! The LS9's are some of the fastest speakers out there, but the Line Force is...... just the greatest speaker I've ever heard.

RonP · « **Reply #141 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 12:23 am »

Hey Danny,

These are the 3x8" bass under the mini monitors, right?

Are those servo 8"?

Edit: Sorry for off-topic. too many beers tonight

Tyson · « **Reply #142 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 01:25 am »

After messing with the mass loading of the woofers, I ended up with a bit more mass on the right speaker's PR and a bit less mass on the left speakers PR. The right speaker is in a corner, the left speaker is not, this asymmetric loading of the passive radiators got the best results in my room. Now the bass is deeeep while still remaining tight. Before the mass loading it was a bit boomy due to the room modes.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #143 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 02:24 am »

Quote from: RonP on 3 Jan 2020, 12:23 am

Hey Danny,

These are the 3x8" bass under the mini monitors, right?

Are those servo 8"?

Edit: Sorry for off-topic. too many beers tonight

Yes they are.

SET Man · « **Reply #144 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 03:58 am »

Hey!

Man! That was one epic upgrade/mod there! Well, I'm sure having someone like Danny really helped with this.

Anyway, I know that sometime more of better parts and etc doesn't always mean the result will be better. But good to see that you like the result here.

By the way, to be able to fine tuning the bass with mass loading the passive radiators to fit your room is great! Enjoy!

Buddy

maty · « **Reply #145 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 07:46 am »

Quote from: Tyson on 2 Jan 2020, 08:24 pm

On thing I've noticed since putting the Forte's in my room - since they go down to 40hz strong now, it excites a room mode that it didn't before. So I'm getting too much bass in the 40-60hz range. Of course that's covered by the passive radiator on the back. Solution? Use something like silly putty and mass load the passive radiator so it's tuned a bit lower. I added about a golfball size worth of putty and it shifted energy away from the 40-60hz range and down toward the 30hz range, which tightened up the in-room bass response nicely.

Exactly where in the passive radiator? A picture...

guf · « **Reply #146 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 03:32 pm »

Wow this was a fun read and watch. I remember Danny saying years ago he wanted to get a hold of a pair of Hersey's and see what he could do with them. Knowing Tyson and his systems, and opinions I was excited to see the results. I have owned more then 15 pairs of speakers from vendors on this forum and I never thought I'd own a pair of Klipsch out of principal. What principal? I don't know.

Since getting a pair a year ago I'm now on my third. No Forte III, yet. (I only tried them because a respected member here suggested how fun they were.) I have upgraded every component in them but still consider them a Klipsch. Glad a respected vendor, builder gave this a shot just to help the community. Thanks Tyson and Danny!

BTW the Klipsch forum is one of the most active and helpful audio forums I have been a part of.... And maybe the most biased. They are all so proud of Paul Klipsch and his speakers. Rightfully so. It seems like most of the elders in the audio community have had a pair at one time or another.

poseidonsvoice · « **Reply #147 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 05:29 pm »

guf,

That modified Klipsch Belle has a nicely designed Eliptrac waveguide. I have looked at that upgrade quite a but when I considered Klipsch. Did you get the ALK (Al Klappenberger) designed crossover too? That fella is a true engineer and was the one who designed the crossovers for Volti Audio.

It would be great to listen to. Too bad your room is on the smaller side.

Best,
Anand

Tyson · « **Reply #148 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 05:37 pm »

Quote from: maty on 3 Jan 2020, 07:46 am

Exactly where in the passive radiator? A picture...

I just stuck it on the middle of the PR. I'll keep messing with it until I get it absolutely perfect. Once I do, I'll unscrew the PR and put the it on the inside of the PR so it's not visible. And I'll probably use something like plumbers caulk as silly putty has a tendency to drip, haha.

Tyson · « **Reply #149 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 05:55 pm »

guf,
Agreed, they are great. One thing I like about the Klipsch Heritage stuff is that they really are designed to sound best up against the wall. Its clear to me now that they tune the baffle step compensation so it only locks in and sounds right when near a barrier of some kind. So even though they are pretty large, they take up less floor space than a traditional audiophile speaker.

You lose soundstage depth by doing this, but since the horns aren't physically aligned, phase will never be perfect anyway. So instead the speaker pushes the sound out into the room in an exciting and engaging way and that's a very smart tradeoff, IMO. It's also one of the reasons Klipsch has the sound that i t does.

The other thing is spectral decay. On the Forte it was very good before the mods and now it's exceptional. That level of cleanliness means you really do hear everything. Couple that level of clean detail with the inherent liveliness of horns and you can see why people find the Klipsch sound so captivating. Or at least I do!

fredgarvin · « **Reply #150 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 05:59 pm »

Quote from: Tyson on 3 Jan 2020, 05:37 pm

I just stuck it on the middle of the PR. I'll keep messing with it until I get it absolutely perfect. Once I do, I'll unscrew the PR and put the it on the inside of the PR so it's not visible. And I'll probably use something like plumbers caulk as silly putty has a tendency to drip, haha.

There's a well known guy at the Klipsch Forums, Moray James, that advocates 2.5 ounces to get the best result. That sounds like a starting point anyway.

Tyson · « **Reply #151 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 06:15 pm »

Quote from: fredgarvin on 3 Jan 2020, 05:59 pm

There's a well known guy at the Klipsch Forums, Moray James, that advocates 2.5 ounces to get the best result. That sounds like a starting point anyway.

Thanks Fred! Good to know I'm not alone in my craziness

I've got more than 2.5 oz on there now, but I think there's a couple of reasons for that - first, after stuffing the cabinet the new natural tuning frequency is 40hz, a bit lower than before. In my room, 40hz is problematic so I've added enough mass to get down to 35hz and now I've added more and gotten it down to 30hz.

I can say this - it works brilliantly. The 40hz range tightens up and balances out nicely, and the 30hz stuff (when it hits) is STRONG. Very nice. The Forte III was moderately full range before, but is now an actual, true full range speaker, going down to 30hz with power.

guf · « **Reply #152 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 06:20 pm »

Quote from: poseidonsvoice on 3 Jan 2020, 05:29 pm

guf,

That modified Klipsch Belle has a nicely designed Eliptrac waveguide. I have looked at that upgrade quite a but when I considered Klipsch. Did you get the ALK (Al Klappenberger) designed crossover too? That fella is a true engineer and was the one who designed the crossovers for Volti Audio.

It would be great to listen to. Too bad your room is on the smaller side.

Best,
Anand

thanks! yup ALK extreme crossovers. room is 13x19x10. Yeah not as big as all the Texas Klipsch guys but it works for me. Now if i can just get my bass tamed.

my 2020 goals

Paopawdecarabao · « **Reply #153 on:** 3 Jan 2020, 11:27 pm »

Hi,

First time poster here and member here. I forgot how I got to see this thread probably in SH forums but I am really a fan of the Forte III and would love to make the upgrades once Danny gets to sell the kit.

I'll be patiently following the thread. Thanks!

maty · « **Reply #154 on:** 4 Jan 2020, 09:55 am »

Klipsch Forte III, phase and impedance

Quote

The minimum value is 3.65 ohms at 125Hz. However, the electrical phase angle (dotted trace) is sometimes extreme, and there is a current-hungry combination of 5 ohms and –49° phase angle at 90Hz. Despite its high sensitivity, the Forte III will work best with amplifiers that are comfortable driving 4-ohm loads.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #155 on:** 4 Jan 2020, 02:44 pm »

Phase and Impedance are wild.

Jon L · « **Reply #156 on:** 4 Jan 2020, 04:01 pm »

Quote from: Tyson on 3 Jan 2020, 05:55 pm

That level of cleanliness means you really do hear everything. Couple that level of clean detail with the inherent liveliness of horns and you can see why people find the Klipsch sound so captivating. Or at least I do!

And the sad fact that vast majority of usual box speakers out there around that price range sound homogenized, boring, have low sensitivity, and sound dynamically dead...

fredgarvin · « **Reply #157 on:** 4 Jan 2020, 04:50 pm »

Quote from: Tyson on 3 Jan 2020, 06:15 pm

Thanks Fred! Good to know I'm not alone in my craziness I've got more than 2.5 oz on there now, but I think there's a couple of reasons for that - first, after stuffing the cabinet the new natural tuning frequency is 40hz, a bit lower than before. In my room, 40hz is problematic so I've added enough mass to get down to 35hz and now I've added more and gotten it down to 30hz.

I can say this - it works brilliantly. The 40hz range tightens up and balances out nicely, and the 30hz stuff (when it hits) is STRONG. Very nice. The Forte III was moderately full range before, but is now an actual, true full range speaker, going down to 30hz with power.

That sounds like it sounds fantastic.

Last night I cranked up my Quartets with Muse playing 'Uprising'. It's a thumper. I'l bet your new Forte's would pound.

HAL · « **Reply #158 on:** 4 Jan 2020, 05:31 pm »

Deleted this comment.

Tyson · « **Reply #159 on:** 4 Jan 2020, 05:53 pm »

Quote from: FullRangeMan on 4 Jan 2020, 02:44 pm

Phase and Impedance are wild.

I wish Danny would post the new graphs, but maybe he's waiting till Tuesday when he posts our Tech Talk Tuesday video that's dedicated to the Forte III upgrade. But just off memory I can say a few things.

Phase with the new crossover is better than the old one. But we discovered that phase will never be perfect because the midrange driver is physically located FAR back from the tweeter and from the bass woofer. So perfect (or even good) phase is impossible. You'd have to change the design of the box and the driver layout significantly in order to address phase. But I think it's less of a problem in this design for reasons I'll get to in a second.

Impedance definitely improves between the new crossover and also bracing/stuffing the cabinet. The improvement doesn't radically change the nature of the speaker. What I think it does is allow amps, especially tube amps, to sound more dynamic and lively. Which is a very good thing.

OK, back to phase and why it might not matter much in this design. From listening to other speakers that have GREAT phase and this speaker that has not so great phase, the biggest thing you seem to lose is soundstage depth. That sense of a large acoustic space being created behind the speaker is just not there. But here's the thing - this speaker was designed to be placed against a wall or in a corner. Specifically the baffle step response was tuned so it's depending upon a boundary to "fill in" the upper bass/lower mids. So this speaker, when placed properly, will never be able to produce a deep soundstage anyway because of the wall.

So you lose soundstage depth. But if you look at the other major measurement, spectral decay, you see what you gain - ultra clean response and of course the horns themselves are very dynamic in a room. The net result is you end up with a speaker that doesn't "recreate the original event" like my Super 7s can. No, the Forte's create their own, new musical event by pushing the sound out toward you in a very exciting way. Not sure if that makes any sense, but that's the best I can explain what I'm hearing.