HT Receiver with HQ DAC?

SoCalWJS · « **on:** 9 Dec 2020, 05:20 pm »

It seems that I am spending more and more time listening to Music through my HT Receiver rather than my 2 channel setup, primarily due to convenience. I also like the fact that it has more options and control over Subwoofer control and integration, not to mention Room EQ. I started to look into it and found out that my receiver (Denon 4500h) has an Asahi Kasei Microdevices AK4458VN DAC which is a pretty middle of the road inexpensive DAC. My Disc player has an ESS Technology ES9038PRO DAC which is definitely better. If I use the Analog outs (aka use it's DAC), I can either bypass the Denon's DAC and lose out on the features I want (Subs & Room EQ), or I am going through another AD/DA conversion and am subject to the quality of it's DAC. If I just use the Digital out of the Player, I at least forego the Analog to digital conversion, but am still using the AKM DAC.

I started to think that maybe my next upgrade would be a better HT Receiver, but it seems like getting info on which DAC a given HT Receiver uses is a bit of a challenge - nobody seems to advertise that detail. They are proud of all the latest bells & whistles and what Room EQ Suite they have, but not the DAC Chip itself.

Does anybody know of a site that compares the Chip(set)s of the various HT Receivers or of a model that has a really good DAC at a non "nosebleed" pricetag?

John Casler · « **Reply #1 on:** 9 Dec 2020, 06:34 pm »

I know at one time the flagships of Pioneer Elite and Yamaha used the ESS chips.

Doublej · « **Reply #2 on:** 10 Dec 2020, 01:08 am »

Does one of these count as HQ at non nosebleed pricing?

32-Bit/768 kHz DAC (AKM AK4458VN)

ESS 384 kHz/32-bit DAC

mav52 · « **Reply #3 on:** 10 Dec 2020, 01:49 pm »

Quote from: John Casler on 9 Dec 2020, 06:34 pm

I know at one time the flagships of Pioneer Elite and Yamaha used the ESS chips.

Yamaha still uses ESS in their high end. The RX-A3080 uses the ESS SABRE PRO ES9026PRO Ultra DAC for the main channels and SABRE ES9007S DACs for the presence channels. Although not the ESS 3098 Pro, but it must work.

Regarding price of a dac chip the 4458 can be bought as low as $2.25 ( that will change since the AKM factory had its massive fire) and remember these Audio manufactures are buying a lot more than one chip and get some huge price breaks on bulk.

SoCalWJS · « **Reply #4 on:** 10 Dec 2020, 03:26 pm »

Quote from: Doublej on 10 Dec 2020, 01:08 am

Does one of these count as HQ at non nosebleed pricing?

32-Bit/768 kHz DAC (AKM AK4458VN)

ESS 384 kHz/32-bit DAC

Tough to answer those questions. I was going to pull up a chart that I was directed to awhile back to assist with an answer, but the chart appears to be unavailable currently. I realize that it is not EVERYTHING that determines how good a DAC sounds, but it is interesting nonetheless.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_DAC_Performance_Index/

I took a look at it after a friend built a little RasberryPi rig sent it to me. I looked at the numbers for the AKM and the Raspberry and was shocked at the differences. The AKM was waaay down the list and not given a good rating (heck, I think it had a slightly better rating than the ESS).

However, these numbers do not necessarily tell the whole picture. I'm looking for something that has the features that I want and is implemented well - something that I'm not sure how to quantify in an HT Receiver. In a stand alone DAC it is easier to find out about these things.

I know I want something that can decode the highest rates possible, preferably over all channels. I want support for DSD 512 (I'm not sure if there is higher now. I heard something once that there was, but can't confirm it). I'm not sure if any of the Manufacturers support upconversion of Audio in their HT Receivers, but would be interested in having the option.

Lots of questions and few answers......

saylormd · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 Feb 2021, 06:59 am »

Audioscienceresearch.com has a chart that ranks AVRs as well as the chart that ranks DACs. You will be happy to see how well the Denon x4500 performed.

dingsta · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Aug 2021, 02:44 am »

Anyone have some real world comparisons on the AK dac's vs ESS's?

Or do you guys think the actual dac doesn't make too much of a difference...but rather the implementation of the unit as a whole?

most dac's have crazy good 'specs'... doesn't really translate to if we can hear a difference?

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 Aug 2021, 10:49 am »

You answered your own question quite well, it's the implimentation that makes the difference. However, if we make that implimentation equal, the latest AKM chips are tagged "Velvet Sound" and that's a pretty good description in my experience. The ESS chips have traditional been on the clear and insightful side, but the latest round has moved in the direction of a more genteel presentation. Personally I like both my ESS and AKM dacs, but they're different for sure. Caveats are I haven't a clue what's going on with the fire at AKM, they stated they're not rebuilding the plant, but there's a zillion new product releases containing AKM chips. I'm assuming they've been outsourcing production for some time, but I don't know anything as fact. The other caveat is the infamous midrange bump in ESS chips appears to be gone in the latest generation. I don't know how far down market that goes, but according to ASR it's not apparent in the 9038 series. Manufacturers picking chips for low and midpriced AVR applications are looking for a lot more functionality as well as low cost than a designer of a stand alone audio DAC might. And going back to the beginning, the implimentation of that DAC in a receiver is going to be a lot different than a separate DAC. If you got pretty good digital performance from a mid priced receiver I'd call it success.