AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Odyssey Audio => Topic started by: magicbus on 11 Feb 2018, 02:32 am
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What tube pre amps are people using with their Odyssey amps ?
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Over the years I have used Music Reference RM-5, Anthem Pre-2L, Kora Eclipse, Sonic Frontiers Line 2 SE, Modwright LS-100 and PS Audio BHK. Another good option with Odyssey amps is the W4S STP-SE.
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Thanks JackD. I see you are using Triode Wire Labs speaker cables. I've read good things about TWL. Any comments on those cables ? Are they as good as the reviews say ?
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They are especially the power cords.
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Currently using Don Sachs latest model with NOS tubes with Klaus "all in" monos and run hi res downloads thru an all tube DAC. I may never change this set up. I find myself sitting in my music room almost every night.
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Used a CAT SL1 Ultimate for years. Good match. Now I've gone SS and I think it sounds even better.
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I’m running an Audible Illusions Modulus L1 with my Khartagos. Very happy with the sound.
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Anthem Pre 1L with Stratos.
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Rouge Audio 99
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Using Don Sach's DS-2 preamp, with my Stratos/Kismet, very happy with the results, Odyssey also sells candela which is also a very capable tube preamp.
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Any of you run the Candela against these others? Just curious...
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Aaron, I had tried several preamps with my Kismet mono amps to do A B C D ... comparison. A list consist of Cary SLP-98, Rogue 99 Magnum, Triode Corp TRX-3, Audible Illusions 3A, Fisher, Scott, Harman kardon Citation I, & a few others that I don't remember. No need to go into further descriptions of each sound as everyone has different ears but for now I have 2 Candelas + a Tempest. The Candela is the best for me at this time. I would be willing to try Backert Labs if anyone can bring it over my place for comparison. I hope in a few weeks I would be able to try them with the Symphonic Line RG3 MK4 with the all out separate Turbo Power Supply.
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I've got the Candela and Tempest but haven't tried comparing either to any other tubed pre so I was curious. I'll be very curious to see how your comparison with the Symphonic line device goes!
I'm using the Tempest on my main rig and the Candela on a second. I preferred the sound of the Tempest with the rest of the main. I really need to switch them around and see how it goes.
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Gentleman. We all would like the best of the best sound. Choosing different manufactured components may be fun but IMHO a waste of time. When a company like Odyssey makes a matching tubed preamp that has SYNERGY with the Oddyssey amp Stop, look and listen.
Others may offer a smidgen of difference in one area or another.
It is the "system"not individual components do separately. It just makes sense to stay with Odyssey all the way. What I would look to improve ?? Front end. Cart, CDP, DAC, TT and cabling of such. Or but better speakers.
charles
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Well...heck, then don't stop at components!!
Groneberg cable (Power, interconnect and speaker) and Lorelei speakers. :thumb:
That Klaus - he's got it almost all covered.
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Many of us know it for the fact the synergy of Odyssey gears all together is crazy good for the $$$ spent. Klaus offers the best supports as long as you are being patient with him. Lol...
Aaron, I'm not going to comment of other brands, those are the past & became history, I did not own all of those, just a few of those listed. but at the end of the day I just find the Candela has an overall balance to everything I'm looking for. I say again, I would be willing to try other brand outside of the Odyssey family if someone brings it to my listening room for trying out, another words, if I have to pay to try then the answer is "NO'. I'm very happy with Odyssey at this time. The Tempest is great on the bass & phono section is no question one of the best built in. I'm using the Suspiro Kismet SE separate PS which is serving me very well.
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Please don't take offense if you're in the 12 step program - I'm not trying to poke fun at that. However, I always feel that I need to start conversations in the forum with:
"My name is Aaron L. and I am a member of Upgrades Anonymous. I acknowledge that I have a problem.
I say I am a member of Upgrades Anonymous because I believe there is an important difference between being an unhappy listener and being a member of Upgrades Anonymous."
Why is it that I always look to the next upgrade rather than enjoy what I have? Love my system but as soon as someone has info on other equipment I'm jumping in. :nono:
Soapbox slid back under my desk... :oops:
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I am using a conrad johnson pv7, an old school tube preamp, and I am happy. I just got it back today after having a relay replaced and it really re awakened my system powered by my stereo Stratos.
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PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium, Candella, Schiit Audio Freya with Electro Harmonix Gold Pin Tubes, and Vincent SA 31. In that order. I also have a Tempest which is pretty damn good but a little to bright with my Infinity Kappa 9s.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176365)
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Used to match it with First Sound Presence Delux MkII and still matching it with my current Symphonic Line KRAFT-250 Mono Blocks ! It's a State of the Art synergy with both Odyssey Audio and Symphonic Line mono blocks !
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176382)
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I have a Decware CSP3 , preamp/headphone amp,, coming this week. I will pull out the CANDELLA to make a comparison..
I'm expecting a lot from this preamp ..( hand made with no circuit board , point to point wiring,, Added Beeswax capacitors. ).
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Magicbus. As in any other component in your system, unfortunately, there are cost factors. In my experience, as a general rule, the lower the cost of the tube pre amp the lower the resolution, the lower separation of each instrument as played in the space recorded, accentuated inaccurate bass response, and more limited sound stage depth. Clime the ladder though and you will be amazed at the transparency the Odysseys amps are capable of. If you have planar speakers though I would heartily recommend the solid state Tempest. It has the same quality of the power amps that should be illegal at its price point.
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I have a Decware CSP3 , preamp/headphone amp,, coming this week. I will pull out the CANDELLA to make a comparison..
I'm expecting a lot from this preamp ..( hand made with no circuit board , point to point wiring,, Added Beeswax capacitors. ).
Congratulations !
This should be a fabulous pre-amp ! I believe it is also a headphone amp ?
Asghar
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Both are amazing with the Statos Mono Extremes (full Kismet boards, Symphonic Line Reference 16K caps, Quattro Reference Cable Upgrade).
In this particular system, the Concert Fidelity provides a bit more detail and speed, which is a nice combo. The Don Sachs, however, adds a bit of "body" and some warmth which is great - especially for female vocals and such.
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Agree with Rollo. Synergy is the name of the game...
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Has anyone tried their Odyssey amps with a Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL 2.0 as a preamp? If so, what did you think? I’m looking closely at it as a combo preamp / headphone amp, but haven’t had the chance to audition it in my home system (Odyssey Stratos Stereo Plus with Philharmonic BMTs).
Of course I’d love a Candela, but considering I’d have to buy a separate headphone amp to achieve the same functionality, it’s quite a bit more expensive.
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I’d be curious to know about the Audio Research SP-14 with a well upgraded Khartago set up.
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I would be willing to try Backert Labs if anyone can bring it over my place for comparison. I hope in a few weeks I would be able to try them with the Symphonic Line RG3 MK4 with the all out separate Turbo Power Supply.
Andy from Backert Labs here ... if you're within driving distance (MD, DE, PA, VA, NJ, NY) I'd be happy to bring one over for you, we can fire her up and see what happens?
-Andy Tebbe
President
P.S. My personal power amp is a pair of Kismet monoblocks, disguised in Stratos cases. :D
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I have been using a Tube Audio Design TAD-150 deluxe that I bought just before Klaus announced the Candela. Got it for just under a grand I think I bought in 2005. It has worked great with my Stratos Stereo Extreme driving my Lorelei's ever since. Only negative is the wonky remote volume.
Unfortunately Paul Grzybek passed away a few years back and Bizzy Bee went with him.
Stay healthy Klaus!
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I had my Odyssey Stratos stereo Extreme amp set up with both an Audible Illusions Modulus 3B tube preamp and also with a Rogue RP-5 tube preamp. They both showed off the strengths of the Stratos Extreme quite nicely. I am a firm believer of solid state amplification and tube preamplification.
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In my experience with four different Odyssey amps over the years they really shine with tube preamps of any genre though some are better than others. As their input sensitivity is only 1 volt some care does need to be exercised with high gain tube preamps with gain much over the mid teens or if you speakers are over mid 80's in sensitivity you will find yourself with the possibility of excessive tube hiss and little flexibility on the volume control no matter how "great" the preamp sounds. So to answer an earlier question either of the LTA preamps should be a great match as are the preamps from Modwright and several other Circle owners like Vinnie and Frank.
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With my upgraded plus Kizmets in Kartago cases I use a Cary SLP-98 or a Rogue Perseus, and I tend to lean towards the Perseus in terms of preference, just lovely.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/preamplifier/a-secrets-preamplifier-review/
Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving.
Lester
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Hi Andy @ Backert Labs, unfortunately I'm way out west in Los Angeles CA. Yes, I know you are using Odyssey amps & that is one of the main reasons why I looked into your product. Also at the moment I'm using the Symphonic Line RG3 Reference as my main pre. I still have some of the rarest & good sounding 12AU7 in my collection. The Candela is in my 2nd system & a pair of the RCA 7316 "U.S. NAVY" Gold pin, shiny long black plate in it. I do have all versions of the Amperex 7316 & plus Gold pin much rarer. The RCA is better.
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The problem with matching tube pres with these amps is thier high gain and low input resistance. It’s pretty annoying. Most tubed pres have high gain and/or output impedance that’s too high.
Of the tube pres that will work well with my Stratos stereo most are way too expensive for me to consider. I bought this thing used for like $800. I have a Freya that works partially but the unit is garbage that’s falling apart and I’m tired of feeding it tubes to breakand it’s not that great of a pre to begin with. I took a chance on an all-tube unit from China with low output impedance but this has too much gain so I hear tube hiss with the pot at zero.
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I would look into Backert Labs. Backert Labs often pairs their preamps with Odyssey amps at consumer audio shows.
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I started out with a Candela pre-amplifier and a Khartago power amp, which was a very nice combination. Then I tried a Quicksilver Audio linestage and found the sound quite a bit better in my system. Greater synergy.
In my other system where I have Kismet monoblocks, I switched from a Tempest pre-amplifier to a pre-owned Audio Research LS-17 SE and found the synergy improved quite a bit, too.
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I started out with a Candela pre-amplifier and a Khartago power amp, which was a very nice combination. Then I tried a Quicksilver Audio linestage and found the sound quite a bit better in my system. Greater synergy.
In my other system where I have Kismet monoblocks, I switched from a Tempest pre-amplifier to a pre-owned Audio Research LS-17 SE and found the synergy improved quite a bit, too.
How would you compare the overall sound of the Candela and the Quicksilver?
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The Quicksilver is warmer, but also more detailed. It is an extremely good sounding linestage, especially for the price. If you have a dealer near you, you owe it to yourself to give it a listen. I listened to preamps 5 times as expensive and did not think they sounded as good as the Quicksilver. I have not found anything better that combines with my Khartago amp. A marriage made in heaven.
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What tube pre amps are people using with their Odyssey amps ?
How about an Odyssey Candela tube preamp. I'd give that one a try.
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The Quicksilver is warmer, but also more detailed. It is an extremely good sounding linestage, especially for the price. If you have a dealer near you, you owe it to yourself to give it a listen. I listened to preamps 5 times as expensive and did not think they sounded as good as the Quicksilver. I have not found anything better that combines with my Khartago amp. A marriage made in heaven.
Is this the one you’re using?
http://quicksilveraudio.com/products/line-stage-preamp/
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The Quicksilver is warmer, but also more detailed. It is an extremely good sounding linestage, especially for the price. If you have a dealer near you, you owe it to yourself to give it a listen. I listened to preamps 5 times as expensive and did not think they sounded as good as the Quicksilver. I have not found anything better that combines with my Khartago amp. A marriage made in heaven.
I own Quicksilver mono 60 & and a Quicksilver headphone amp , including Mike Sanders QS Silver IC but I use Don Sach's DS 2 for a pre-amp ! the QuickSilver amps perform way above their price point. and Am very satisfied with them I do own a" high current" (850 Transformer & "Expensive "35 K" Symphonic Capacitors ") Odyssey Kismet amp with all the belles and whistles that Klaus made for me (March of 2017) I was using it with my Magnipan 1.7i which I sold last year now for a year the unit sits in a rack , I love the unit but now I have very efficient horn like speakers Daedalus Poseidon , so I have decided to sell the Kismet probably will but it up for sale in the next few days I dont think a Odyssey kismet unit should be just sitting in a rack probably not good for the caps . Yes I truly love QuickSilver products and have compared to units that cost 4X as much. So I don't think you will go wrong with a QS line stage !
Asghar
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Yes, that is the one. On another note, I once tried an Audio Note OTO SE integrated amplifier with phono stage and it didn't even come close to the Khartago + Quicksilver combination in this system. And the Khartago + Quicksilver combination is less than half the price of the Audio Note.
You will need a phono stage with the Quicksilver Linestage. I use a Parasound Zphono (on sale from an online audio vendor with very good reputation) with very, very good results. Have so far not had the desire to upgrade and put more money in good speakers. Again, the synergy of these pieces is really great.
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One has to consider the price point of the Candela to most others and determine how much better sound are you getting overall compared to the Candela. I have the Candela and have thought many times of upgrading but I can find nothing in its sound to cause me to do so. If I want an upgrade I would step up the Odyssey line to a Stratos or Kismet where i believe would give me a better overall upgrade.
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lots of great comments on this thread. I had a Audio Research LS15 pre and ARC PH5 phono when I upgraded my old amp to a pair of Odyssey fully upgraded to the max Kismets. I love this combo but I am probably less picky than many of you.
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well, synergy, synergy, synergy...all of our amps LOVE tube preamps, and so far, I haven't experienced a mismatch yet...however, the shades of tubes, of course, is tremendeous and such with tube rolling somewhat of a chameleon that you can adjust to your own preference....great tube preamp with shitty tubes = mediocre, while mediocre preamp with great tubes gets you pretty darn close to the former...ahhh, the joys of tube rolling....that's one reason why we have 12 AU 7's, which is the easiest one to get..of course the Candela is a very good pre, especially at the price point, but again, the amps will play nice with all of them....and can't argue with all of the ones mentioned in this thread.......
as for the amps, no worries...especially if you have high efficiency speakers...if you like tubes, then that's what you should have...no argument here...for heaven's sake, if there wouldn't be stark personal differences, then digital amps wouldn't exist...........
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well, synergy, synergy, synergy...all of our amps LOVE tube preamps, and so far, I haven't experienced a mismatch yet...however, the shades of tubes, of course, is tremendeous and such with tube rolling somewhat of a chameleon that you can adjust to your own preference....great tube preamp with shitty tubes = mediocre, while mediocre preamp with great tubes gets you pretty darn close to the former...ahhh, the joys of tube rolling....that's one reason why we have 12 AU 7's, which is the easiest one to get..of course the Candela is a very good pre, especially at the price point, but again, the amps will play nice with all of them....and can't argue with all of the ones mentioned in this thread.......
as for the amps, no worries...especially if you have high efficiency speakers...if you like tubes, then that's what you should have...no argument here...for heaven's sake, if there wouldn't be stark personal differences, then digital amps wouldn't exist...........
Is there or might there be a Kismet Tube Preamp? Above the Candela but below the Symphonic Line?
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I talked to Klaus a few years back about a kismet pre. There were no plans at that time. But who knows.
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I have an Audio Research 16 preamp I owned prior to my Stratos Mono Extremes. Have not considered any changes in years which says a lot for a fidgety tinkerer like me. Bought Groneberg speaker wire on Kalus's recommendation (he uses it for his internal wiring) and that made a big difference too.
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PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium into the Kismet/Khartago monos.
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Yes, that is the one. On another note, I once tried an Audio Note OTO SE integrated amplifier with phono stage and it didn't even come close to the Khartago + Quicksilver combination in this system. And the Khartago + Quicksilver combination is less than half the price of the Audio Note.
You will need a phono stage with the Quicksilver Linestage. I use a Parasound Zphono (on sale from an online audio vendor with very good reputation) with very, very good results. Have so far not had the desire to upgrade and put more money in good speakers. Again, the synergy of these pieces is really great.
Do you find the Quicksilver has too much gain? Its got 18db vs the Candela 14db. What's the sensitivity of the speakers you are powering?
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I am using a Modwright 36.5 DM preamp with my Kismet mono amps. The 36.5 DM has tube rectification. This provides great flexibility is shaping the preamp sound by tube rolling the rectifier tube. Recently moved from RCA 5U4g wire hanger rectifier tubes to Western Electric 422a's.
Last month I was looking for a second preamp for a second system and purchased a second 36.5 DM. It was my best option for a preamp with a tube rectifier.
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Dodd Audio Pre with my Khartago extremes for 10+ years and couldn’t be happier.
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The Quicksilver is warmer, but also more detailed. It is an extremely good sounding linestage, especially for the price. If you have a dealer near you, you owe it to yourself to give it a listen. I listened to preamps 5 times as expensive and did not think they sounded as good as the Quicksilver. I have not found anything better that combines with my Khartago amp. A marriage made in heaven.
I owned a QuickSilver Line Stage a few years back, but sold it, I always regretted that. It was also before I picked up my current Kismet amp, Candela and Moabs. I really love the Odyssey combo, but last week I found a good deal on a 2016 QSLS from it's original owner. I just got it in today, but I haven't had time to hook it up. I am very pleased to see the love for it and it's pairing with Odyssey amps here. I am really looking forward to getting it hooked up, this weekend most likely.
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I had Klaus upgrade my Kismet monoblocks to his max. At the same time I bought a factory refreshed ARC Ref 2 MkII, I also have an ARC Ph5 phono amp. This combination works great for me, but maybe my ears are not as picky as some of yours. I love my Kismets, have had them for about 3 years. The upgrades that Klaus did last year really made a huge difference.
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I got some time to listen to the QS and although it is a very fine preamp, really no match for the Candela. Here is part of a review I did on them.
"Sound: The QS has a more traditional "tube" sound, soft and mellow. The Candela does not, it is dynamic and not "mellow" at all. The QS is very listenable, pleasing and "non-fatiguing". Voices are nice and smooth. Sound stage is great and 3 dimensional, it "might" be a bit more 3 dimensional then the Candela, but it is really too early in my listening to make that call. They both have similar levels of "tube noise". Just barely audible from the listening position do to [my] Moabs being 95+ dB efficient.
I listened to the QS for a while, really getting pulled in and enjoying it, then I switched back to my Candela...
Instrument separation and prominence is markedly better in the Candela, bass is deeper and more defined. Everything and it's location has a more tangible feel to it (to varying degrees). A more energetic listening experience overall. It is a bit brighter, or I should say, the QS is less bright. My aging ears appreciate the added brightness. And I really like the substantially improved bass extension. The softness of the QS does help my sibilance sensitivity, but not a big difference either way.
I have a pair of Mullard CV4024 tube on order for the QS, but I don't anticipate them making a big enough difference to sway my opinion that the Odyssey is the better preamp for me. This comparison really gave me a better appreciation for it."
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=237437)
As an audiophile, the drive to continually tinker is strong. I need to just enjoy more :)
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I had Klaus upgrade my Kismet monoblocks to his max. At the same time I bought a factory refreshed ARC Ref 2 MkII, I also have an ARC Ph5 phono amp. This combination works great for me, but maybe my ears are not as picky as some of yours. I love my Kismets, have had them for about 3 years. The upgrades that Klaus did last year really made a huge difference.
I am not sure what upgrades are available for my Kismet amp. I should check into that.
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Do you find the Quicksilver has too much gain? Its got 18db vs the Candela 14db. What's the sensitivity of the speakers you are powering?
I use a Quicksilver line stage with two Stratos mono blocs. I find the gain to be very similar to the Odyssey preamp. Sound is similar, but ever so slightly more detailed with the Odyssey. I've also used a Conrad Johnson and one other, and never saw a gain issue. The CJ was a different kind of sound, but also very warm. The other was just to see how it sounded, and wasn't in the system an hour. I did run the amps in with a solid state B&K, and was surprised at the sound quality. Yet lackluster.
gary
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lazydays,
Do you remember which conrad-johnson preamp you tried?
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The Erhard Audio Aretha works well with my Stratos Extreme++++
https://www.erhard-audio.com/Aretha.html
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lazydays,
Do you remember which conrad-johnson preamp you tried?
A PV10al that had just came from the factory after a complete rebuild. Has no phono stage, but best of all a tape loop. I will never buy another preamp without a tape loop again!!!!!
gary
P.S. I cannot believe what these guys are getting for the somewhat lowly PV10 on Ebay! I have about $330 in it, and bought from a woman in CA that got tired of waiting for it's return. She went out and bought a new one four times better. I got it in the original CJ box unopened. Not in the running with a Sonic Frontiers preamp, but usable.
glt
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Been out of the hobby for ten or twelve years now, but slowly (and regretfully) easing back in. I had great success with Kara's DeHavilland Mercury2 linestage with my Stratos Extreme Monos driving Revel F50's. This was pre-candela, so I would think, now, that Klaus has designed and built a pre that is best suited for you. As an aside, and introduction...I recently moved to the Bay Area, and had the great pleasure of touring the Magico facility in Hayward, and talking to a few of their employees. Did you know that Alon used to voice his speakers with Klaus' amps? He now uses Soulution 7 series amps from Switzerland (40x the price). I could not have been more proud of anything then when I told their engineers that I have been an Odyssey customer for twenty years. P.S. I also visited Spectral in Sunnyvale, and their shit is also awesome driving M6's.
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Yup, yup, yup and yup..................
Actually, Magico has a boatload of our amps...........and right now they're all here in the shop for Kismet / Hyper power supply upgrades................
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I have a new Quicksilver Remote Linestage and find I have no range with the volume control. It's pretty much loud or off. My speakers are 96 dB efficient so I know that also doesn't help. Mike at QS said the input impedance and gain don't match well. I found online in an old review (I believe) of an Odyssey amp that has input impedance at 22kΩ and gain of 30 dB. Is that correct? I have always read something about the preamp to amp output to input impedance of 10x. In this case it would be 2.2x QS Linestage (output impedance 10k), so not ideal. Any thoughts on what can be done except buy a different preamp?
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Yes, 22k / 30 dB+ is correct, and while there really isn't a mismatch with the QS per se (as we have severla customers who run this combo without a hitch) you have other things going on in your system here....really, what would be easiest and what is worth trying is to get a potentiometer with a different value......worked with some Candelas in super high efficient speaker systems in the past
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Klaus, I sent you an email but can you explain what you mean and what I would need? I figured putting the answer here may help someone else. Thanks!
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Your issue is not just the higher gain of the QLS (18 db) with the higher gain of the Odyssey but the entire three piece combination with the much higher than average sensitivity speakers at 96 db. The mismatch would still exist if your speakers were more in the "normal range" of 86-88 db but it would be less noticeable. There are a couple of simple ways to "correct" the mismatch if you want to continue with the QLS. The cheapest ways I know would be to try the $49 Schitt Sys or the Rothwell Attenuators which are last I looked $69.
https://www.schiit.com/products/sys
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/attenuators.html
You may also be able to find Pro Audio versions of the attenuators at places like Guitar Center, Sweetwater, etc. to see if you like the way they work and if not maybe return them.
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Thanks for the reply, JackD. That Sys looks interesting. Real cheap to try.
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Your welcome. I've owned four different Odyssey amps over the last 20+ years and with their high gain/low input sensitivity matching with tube preamps can be tricky. Once you get it work out it will be worth it.
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I used to run a Counterpoint SA5.1 preamp with my Stratos Plus which worked quite nicely. Not so much with a Marsh 400 that I auditioned. This combo sounded like dog doo doo. My wife told me if I bought that amp, it had better come with a lawyer. :lol:
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I use a Primaluna Dialogue with upgraded tubes.
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I'm running the Primiluna Dioluge with upgraded tubes on my (2020) Kismet monos.