AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: subsonic1050 on 4 Jun 2021, 05:13 am
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Hey everyone, I figured it was about time to make a post on my triple servo subs build. As I've mentioned in previous posts I'm building 2 sets of these.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225199)
All of the 3/4" and 1/2" MDF cut to rough size to be laminated for constructing the cabinets.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225200)
Some of the panels in glue up. (I made a post about laminating sheet goods if you're curious about that)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225201)
One of the baffles being cut on the CNC. My CNC is an openbuilds Lead 1515 and has an area approximately 4'x4' - not nearly as big or heavy duty as Jay's, but it gets the job done!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225202)
One of the side panels on the CNC. I played around with the dimensions for the dado's to get a perfect fit. All rabbets were done on the tablesaw because it's faster than my CNC.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225203)
First one in the clamps.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225204)
I thought it would be smarter to paint the insides first, then sand up any overspray and then apply the veneer. I think this is the wrong order. Latex paint is sticky, and sawdust in my shop sticks to it like crazy. I'll have to respray the first 2. The 2nd pair of cabinets I veneered first - then I'll carefully mask everything off and shoot the paint.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225205)
Part of the veneering process. I'm using Heatlock glue. You apply the glue to the cabinet and the laminate - let dry, and then iron on. Make sure the glue is COMPLETELY dry. On one of my pieces the glue was about 99% dry and I was tired of waiting. The stuff acted exactly like contact cement. I couldn't reposition or remove it. I ended up peeling the entire piece off, ripping away a very fine layer of MDF in the process. The next day I spent about 3 hours carefully using a heat gun and scraper on the back of the veneer to remove the glue and sanded the cabinet again before trying again. Don't make my mistake!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225206)
First cabinet veneered. 3 more to go, along with careful trimming and sanding. As you can see I cut the top (and bottom) with the little strip that covers the top front edge and bottom front edge out of one piece of veneer so that the grain is matched and is continuous. I also veneered the tops and bottoms first, then the sides and front. That way the little bit of glue line and "edge" of the veneer is not visible from the front.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225207)
All of the cabinets veneered and the first coat of finish on. I'm using Rubio Monocoat - which is a finish I love on my furniture. Technically it only needs one coat (hence the name), but I find it gives a bit nicer finish if you apply a 2nd light coat.
Next, all of them will get the interior painted. As you can tell from the front rabbet running around the perimeter, these will be getting grills. I'm debating over cutting the grills on the CNC, which yields a lot of waste MDF and also MDF is so weak - or making them out of hardwood.
One of the sets will also be getting a stand which will raise the speakers up about 12" to accommodate the drop in my theater/listening room which has steps. The subs will be on a floor which is 2 steps, and 12", lower than the listening position. The stand will also house the amp. I'm thinking I may partition off the rest of the base from the amp and fill the remaining cavity with sand.
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This is a great post. What a fantastic shop you have.
I'm anxious to hear about how well these work in your home theater.
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Looking good subsonic. Can you talk about the Rubio finish a little more? Perhaps comparisons to similar things you've tried and what you see as advantages and disadvantages.
I'm on the hunt for hand applied finishes to demo in videos because I think it'd be more accessible to folks who don't have spray capability . Out of curiosity (which seems to always be my thing), I got some Odie's Oil to try. Perhaps it's how I'm using it or maybe I'm just jaded but I'm underwhelmed. I'd like to see a little more film buildup, but so far it's not happening to the degree I want.
To be fair, I've been testing on wired oak. I suspect it might work better on a finely sanded surface.
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Thanks Rock Ball - woodworking isn't what I do for a living, but my shop certainly is my "happy place" and my passion. I can't wait to hear these in my system as well! I'll be sure to post my impressions once they are up and running!
Peter J - I use all sorts of finishes in my furniture. I have an HVLP system for spraying finishes, a Graco airless sprayer for paint, and of course the ability to do any brush on or hand rubbed finishes. I've tried a LOT of stuff and Rubio Monocoat is probably my favorite at the moment. It is in a relatively new class of finishes called a "hard wax oil". I have tried other hard wax oils like Osmo and I've also tried Odie's oil, and neither one looks as nice in my opinion. Rubio is a 2 part finish - sort of like an epoxy, only the "hardener" is really just an accelerator - it makes the finish cure dry in about a day and fully cure in about a week. Without the accelerator it takes a month for it to fully cure. Rubio is great because it provides the type of finish that I like, which is the look of an oil rubbed finish, with the durability and moisture protection of a film finish. It is also repairable, so if it gets damaged you can lightly sand that area and apply more finish - it will blend right in. You can't do that with many finishes that provide much protection. It really makes grain come alive, and with a 2nd coat as I mentioned is my preference, it provides just a hint of sheen. Probably like an eggshell amount of sheen. One thing it will not do is build up - that's not the kind of finish it is. Rubio can be rubbed by hand, but in my experience is best applied using a buffer.
If you are looking for an excellent finish that will provide a film buildup, is easy to apply, looks amazing, and has slightly more gloss - try General Finishes Arm-R-Seal. The stuff is amazing. I slightly prefer the look of Rubio because it looks a little more "natural", but it is still amazing.
Oh, and most of these finishes require a pretty finely sanded surface. You probably wouldn't get good results with Rubio on a rough surface like wired oak. Arm-R-Seal could probably work under those conditions, you may just need an extra coat or 2.
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Thanks Rock Ball - woodworking isn't what I do for a living, but my shop certainly is my "happy place" and my passion. I can't wait to hear these in my system as well! I'll be sure to post my impressions once they are up and running!
Peter J - I use all sorts of finishes in my furniture. I have an HVLP system for spraying finishes, a Graco airless sprayer for paint, and of course the ability to do any brush on or hand rubbed finishes. I've tried a LOT of stuff and Rubio Monocoat is probably my favorite at the moment. It is in a relatively new class of finishes called a "hard wax oil". I have tried other hard wax oils like Osmo and I've also tried Odie's oil, and neither one looks as nice in my opinion. Rubio is a 2 part finish - sort of like an epoxy, only the "hardener" is really just an accelerator - it makes the finish cure dry in about a day and fully cure in about a week. Without the accelerator it takes a month for it to fully cure. Rubio is great because it provides the type of finish that I like, which is the look of an oil rubbed finish, with the durability and moisture protection of a film finish. It is also repairable, so if it gets damaged you can lightly sand that area and apply more finish - it will blend right in. You can't do that with many finishes that provide much protection. It really makes grain come alive, and with a 2nd coat as I mentioned is my preference, it provides just a hint of sheen. Probably like an eggshell amount of sheen. One thing it will not do is build up - that's not the kind of finish it is. Rubio can be rubbed by hand, but in my experience is best applied using a buffer.
If you are looking for an excellent finish that will provide a film buildup, is easy to apply, looks amazing, and has slightly more gloss - try General Finishes Arm-R-Seal. The stuff is amazing. I slightly prefer the look of Rubio because it looks a little more "natural", but it is still amazing.
Oh, and most of these finishes require a pretty finely sanded surface. You probably wouldn't get good results with Rubio on a rough surface like wired oak. Arm-R-Seal could probably work under those conditions, you may just need an extra coat or 2.
With Rubio you can get a little more sheen by applying a coat of their Maintenance oil at least 48 hours after the second coat of 2C. This brings the sheen up close to satin.
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I'm jealous of your set up!! Great work!
Don
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Whoa! Great job! :thumb:
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Excellent work! I’m impressed!
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Very nice. I wish I had access to a shop like that. I'm just doing everything in my empty theater room for now.
For finishing mine (a pair of duals), I plan to assemble the inner cabinets and attach the base since both of them are going to be black lacquer. Then I have a friend who knows a guy with a cabinet shop where I'll send the outer sides and the top to have a walnut veneer put on them. I'll test fit and mark where the veneer goes on the inside of the panels. No worries about overspray that way. :thumb:
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Thanks for the compliments everyone!
Vince - did you purchase some flat packs? My understanding is that Jay uses 1.5" MDF to make his sides rather than laminating (2) 3/4" pieces together. This is a much faster and easier way to do it, and I'd have done the same but there is a massive MDF shortage right now and none of my suppliers had any. If that is the case, I don't think your plan will work unless I'm not following what you intend to do. In any case, yes, having veneer and paint is kind of a pain! In retrospect I should have used an oil based paint rather than latex. I don't know what I was thinking. It will be fine in the end but latex is just so damn sticky until it fully cures.
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Yes - great wood shop, and you obviously know how to take advantage of it. Nice work!
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Can you help me figure out how many sq ft and what size veneer pieces I need per triple cabinet? Looking to Verner my build of dual triples soon.
Thanks!
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Thanks Jaytor!
Badd99 - sure, it's actually pretty easy to figure out. I veneered the top, bottom, both sides, and the front edges on all sides. It worked out almost perfectly that one full 4x8 sheet of veneer covered a pair of triple servo subs. This is really nice because they are basically a perfect match for each other. My subs are 42" tall, so I cut the veneer into 2 44"x48" pieces, then cut 2 15.75"x44" pieces out of each of those and the resulting 17" or so wide piece was further broken down to do the tops and bottoms.
One full sheet will definitely yield enough for the pair, and you may even have enough left over to do your amp boxes if you do those as well. You'll want to cut the pieces at least 1" oversized so that you have some overhang to trim off with a flush trim bit.
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These are my favorite threads. Thanks for documenting and sharing.
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Man, these are looking absolutely gorgeous!! :o
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Yes, nicely done man :thumb: :thumb:
Yes, we do use solid, ULtra re-frned 1.5" for the side panels, tops and bases with 1" baffles and bracing. Not having the seams is really nice if applying a high end painted finish.
Wow, I'd have thought a single sheet (4x8) of veneer would be really tight for a pair of triples, would be absolutely no room for any error.
Have done anumber of nicely book matched duals from a single sheet , that includes inner grill recess, front face of bracing, and amp boxes.
Enjoy the subs man, sounds like you're going to have a great theater soon :)
jay
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Thanks very much Hobbs, Jay, and nrenter, much appreciated.
Jay - I actually had quite a bit of room for error. So much so that I'll be able to do the amp boxes for one of the pairs out of the leftovers from the 2 sheets used on the main cabinets for all 4 subs. I left at least 1" extra for overhang to make sure I didn't run into issues. It is nice that the sheets I got weren't actually 48x96 but 49x97 - like MDF sheets. That extra inch in either direction left me even more room to play with. Also, I wish I had been able to find some MDF in those thicknesses already - would have saved me a lot of work! I'm really looking forward to receiving my NX-Treme flat packs from you - really looking forward to getting started on those!
I'm also working on the stands which will house the amps. I glued them up yesterday and the heatlock glue is drying now. They'll be veneered and possibly even have finish on them by the end of the day. They are shaped the same as the subs and I positioned the amp sideways. The stands are 10 5/8" tall, so with the spikes they will be about 12.5" tall. I filled them with cat litter - I'd guess they weigh 40-50 pounds each filled like that.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225319)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225320)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225321)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225322)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225323)
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This is a great post. What a fantastic shop you have.
I'm anxious to hear about how well these work in your home theater.
Seconded. Amazing shop. Fascinating build.
D
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Thanks for the compliments everyone!
Vince - did you purchase some flat packs? My understanding is that Jay uses 1.5" MDF to make his sides rather than laminating (2) 3/4" pieces together. This is a much faster and easier way to do it, and I'd have done the same but there is a massive MDF shortage right now and none of my suppliers had any. If that is the case, I don't think your plan will work unless I'm not following what you intend to do. In any case, yes, having veneer and paint is kind of a pain! In retrospect I should have used an oil based paint rather than latex. I don't know what I was thinking. It will be fine in the end but latex is just so damn sticky until it fully cures.
I'm actually not sure whose they are. I ordered them through Danny. They are all dowel-pin aligned. This is what the inner cabinet looks like assembled. My thought was to just attach the base to the inner cabinets (after pre-fitting and adjusting the side panels), and have walnut veneer put on the outer side and top panels.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224989)
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If you ordered them on the GR website, they are from Killian.
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If you ordered them on the GR website, they are from Killian.
Yes, you are correct. I suspect that is why Killian is e-mailing me regarding a missing piece for one of the amp boxes. Doh! :lol:
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Hi Vince, yes your flat pack will need to have sides and a top/bottom glued on, so you could do it the way you were suggesting! You'll just want to be careful with glue squeeze out to prevent messing your paint job up, and be careful with clamps to avoid damaging your veneer, but you could certainly do it that way. I didn't realize the flat packs from GR were not Jay's for the servo subs.
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Hi Vince, yes your flat pack will need to have sides and a top/bottom glued on, so you could do it the way you were suggesting! You'll just want to be careful with glue squeeze out to prevent messing your paint job up, and be careful with clamps to avoid damaging your veneer, but you could certainly do it that way. I didn't realize the flat packs from GR were not Jay's for the servo subs.
Noted. Thanks! :thumb:
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Update on the build. The first pair are up and running in my theater/listening room. I still have to make the grills, which I will at least get started on today.
I masked off and then painted the stands after veneering. My preferred order after messing with this is to veneer, then paint, then put the finish on the veneer. I was finding that the masking tape was damaging my finish a little. I then installed the press fit inserts for the floor spikes. I don't like press fit hardware, especially in MDF - so I press fit and epoxied them. I also installed some threaded inserts into the top of the stands (also epoxied in place) to allow some bolts to come down through the bottom of the sub cabinet and into the stand.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225685)
A quick look at the unfinished stand with the speaker to make sure it looks and fits right. You can see the pocket where the amp will go.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225687)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225686)
I decided a spacer between the stands and the main cabinet would look nice. I made some 1/4" thick black spacers out of HDPE with a profile to match the cabinets. I buffed them to smooth out and polish the edges. Here is a look at one with the spacer and one without.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225688)
Next was to fit the No Res. I cut all my No Res on a bandsaw. I prefer that to the tablesaw for something like foam as there is no chance of binding and the foam getting torn up or pulling your hand into it - plus the bandsaw results in less waste due to the thinner kerf blade. I built a quick jig to hold the No Res perfectly square to the blade while I cut my 45 degree chamfers. I marked the jig with reference marks to align the No Res for the different length cuts.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225689)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225690)
The completed speakers next to my old Paradigm Defiance X15 subs. All that is left for this pair are the grills. The lighting in my theater/listening room is not meant for taking pictures - so sorry for the poor quality!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225691)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225692)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225693)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225694)
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Those have turned out absolutely incredible!
Im sure they sound ever bit as good as they look! :thumb:
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Wow! That's incredible looking.
I wish I had these kinda skills.
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Yeah I wish I had those skills too! Very nice.
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Thanks gentlemen! Also public thanks to Tyson for helping me with some questions I had on amps - much appreciated!
Basically last update - I have made the speaker grills. I decided to make them from some scrap ash I had - I used a small domino for loose tenon joints. I subtracted about 3/32" from the interior dimensions of the grill opening from the frame dimensions to allow for the thickness of the fabric. Then I used a trick that I saw from someone on this forum (sorry I can't remember who) and routed a 1/8" groove approximately 3/16" deep around the perimeter of the frame to use window screen splines. I added a small roundover on the front of the frame so the fabric doesn't wrap around a hard corner. I painted the frame black so that none of the wood could show through the fabric. Then stretched the fabric tight, installed the fabric and trimmed it with a razor blade.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225719)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225720)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225721)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225722)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=225723)
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@Subsonic1050 - Those are without doubt the finest looking triples I have seen. They look truly top-of-the-line quality and design without looking gaudy. Love the appearance with the black separating the amp box and drivers, and love the easy on the eyes overall look with the grills in place. These would do any room proud as furniture - not to mention mind blowing performance.
Enjoy them and please be sure to follow up with your listening impressions.
Thanks for posting!
Answer2No1
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Not the most original reaction, but dang, these things look excellent. Great work! Enjoy the fruits of your labor! :thumb:
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Thanks Answer2No1 and Kingdeezie - the compliments are much appreciated!
I do suppose I should post some listening impressions. Let's not mess about - they are amazing. They are tricky though... these Rhythmik amps are a wonder of engineering, but there are SO MANY SETTINGS on them. My plan was to just leave the amp in more or less the positions that they arrived at in the box and tweak from there. Wrong plan. They sounded absolutely terrible - and I mean horrible. As my first song I chose one that had a reasonable amount of bass, but even at medium volume the drivers were moving to what appeared like their absolute limit (with the volume setting on the amp at around 40%). I knew something wasn't right. I went to the forums and found a post by user Throwback in which he talks about some good settings to start with, and tweak from there. That turned out to be money - immediately they sounded very good. I did make a few tweaks from those settings, but they were indeed a good starting point. In case anyone is having those same issues, that thread is:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154568.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154568.0)
I do have a calibrated microphone, but I haven't taken the time yet to run a room check. I'm still finishing the 2nd pair of servo subs and I want to get those done. However, I have done a fair bit of AB testing with my Paradigm Defiance X15 subs. During songs with heavy bass the differences are subtle. The servo subs have more tone, more color, and more meat on the bone (that last one was somewhat unexpected for me). The speed of the servos doesn't come into it as much on certain types of music (think rap, even though I don't listen to rap) but there is still an improvement. Where the differences become very black and white are with faster instruments - double bass, drums, etc. The first song that made me go "Holy S%&T" was "I will Remember" by Toto. The percussion in that song just sounded unreal - so fast and tight. By comparison my Paradigm subs sounded like they were playing underwater. Further exploration with songs like "Can't Stop Running" by Ben Ezra and "Kiss in Blue" by Yello yielded similar amazing results.
In short - I love them. Now I can't wait to get my NX-Treme flat packs in!
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I echo everyone's sentiments - those are amazing! I'm working on my own set of veneered/painted triples as well, so it's nice to get a few tips from your experience (like veneer before paint, which is how I was proceeding). My progress is glacial compared to yours - I only have a few hours every other weekend or so to work on them., and I'm doing both the triples and my NX-Oticas at the same time. One of these days when I've made a bit more progress, I'll post up some pics. Right now it's just a bunch of MDF panels with strips of veneer on the edges.
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Thanks DigIndig - if you have any questions along the way with your build let me know. I'll only have done 2 sets of them, but I may be able to help if the need arises. You'll be really happy with them - they sound fantastic!
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Thanks, subsonic! One question I do have: what's your rationale behind the veneer - paint - finish veneer sequence? I have been playing with various finishes, and I'm leaning toward a tung oil varnish on my veneer. Was curious if I am best waiting until after painting to put on the finish, or if there's value to putting at least 1-2 coats on first before painting as a safety measure in case there is any overspray. My thinking is that it's better to have to sand off a coat of varnish than to worry about the paint soaking too deep into the veneer. For reference, I'm using an Italian palmwood veneer that is very thirsty. Maybe a coat of sanding sealer first?
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Good question DigIndig. It was all trial and error. I've done a lot of woodworking, but I've really never done a project which required regular finish AND paint. My first thought was to paint first, then sand off the paint in the areas I didn't want it and then apply the veneer. This turned out to be the worst option for me. The first reason was that sanding latex paint is ridiculous. All it does is gum up the sandpaper, and what I thought would be a very quick sanding job ended up taking much longer (and used a lot more sandpaper) than I had anticipated. The 2nd reason was that all that sanding along with trimming veneer caused a bunch of sawdust to get embedded into the paint. I ended up having to clean up the paint as best I could and spraying AGAIN after veneer anyway. The problem really was the sticky nature of latex paint. Even days after painting it was sticky enough to attract dust. If I were to do this project over again I'd probably try an oil based paint and see if it worked better.
Next I tried veneering and finishing the veneer before masking off the veneer and painting. My idea was that the finish on the veneer would prevent any paint from being absorbed into the veneer. The problem here was that the masking tape actually damaged the finish. I even used the yellow "frog tape" which is specifically designed for delicate surfaces. It actually ripped out a very fine layer of veneer. I had to sand the veneer all over again and then reapply finish to the veneer. The last option, which I thought would be the worst - was to veneer, then paint, then finish the veneer. It turned out that the veneer did not soak up paint in the least. That could be because latex paint is very viscous - different paint may behave differently. I also didn't bother sanding the veneer before paint, as I knew I'd have to sand again afterwards anyway. I still got a little bit of dust in the latex while sanding the veneer, but it was manageable.
All in all, that order (veneer, then paint, then finish the veneer) turned out to work the best for me. If I were to try again with an oil based paint you may find a different order works best. Also, if you finish your veneer with a film finish (conversion varnish, lacquer, polyurethane, etc.) then you may not have the issue with the tape damaging the finish when masking - but it sounds like you plan to use an oil finish as I did.
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.... The first reason was that sanding latex paint is ridiculous. All it does is gum up the sandpaper, and what I thought would be a very quick sanding job ended up taking much longer (and used a lot more sandpaper) than I had anticipated.
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I literally JUST experienced this phenomenon over the weekend. Not only did it gum my sandpaper, it picked up lumps of paint and spread those gums around. I had to take a 100 grit wallboard sandpaper (mesh holes) and sand off the lumps to start over. Fortunately I only painted the underside of the base before encountering this. I'll pick up a different primer paint to finish the inner cabinets on my build.
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I literally JUST experienced this phenomenon over the weekend. Not only did it gum my sandpaper, it picked up lumps of paint and spread those gums around. I had to take a 100 grit wallboard sandpaper (mesh holes) and sand off the lumps to start over. Fortunately I only painted the underside of the base before encountering this. I'll pick up a different primer paint to finish the inner cabinets on my build.
Yes, it really is a nightmare isn't it?! I do think the best solution is just to use something other than latex - I was thinking a good oil based paint, but I don't know because I haven't tried it! Oil based paint will take longer to dry, but I think it will be a harder finish that shouldn't attract dust the same way that latex does. If the paint weren't so sticky I don't even know that it would matter in what order you completed these tasks - although finishing the veneer with an oil finish and then using tape to mask it off could still damage the finish on the veneer as was my experience.
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Hey Subsonic1050:
Before I steal this idea for stands, which I'm going to do anyway, is it OK if do? :D
Awesome work by the way. :thumb:
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Great looking subs.
Enjoy them - they are clean and powerful.
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Hey Subsonic1050:
Before I steal this idea for stands, which I'm going to do anyway, is it OK if do? :D
Awesome work by the way. :thumb:
Haha, thanks for asking "permission". Lol. In any case, yes of course you may! Feel free to ask any questions you may have about them as well.
As a side note - I love your X-Statiks. I have a buddy who is coming over in late July to build a set of X-statiks with me in my shop. All the parts are sitting on my counter right behind me just waiting to be put to use. I'm sure I'll be referring to your build thread when we get to that time!
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I have been thinking about building some stands for my OB subs for awhile and I like your solution. That is the cool thing about this forum, people are willing to share and inspire. Best forum on the net.
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I lied about it being the last update - here are the (nearly) completed 2nd set of subs. The drivers and wiring will be done in place when they reach their final destination. I added everything up and they weigh just over 190 pounds apiece when fully assembled. All the No Res is cut, all I have to do is install the drivers, wire them up, and stick in the No Res. It's just easier to move them this way and not worry as much about damaging things. I may even do one more update when they are integrated into their new home if anyone cares to see. It will be a few weeks before I can get over there as it's about a 4 hour drive from me.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226012)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=226013)
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They do look Beautiful! Nice work!
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Wow…. Seriously impressive work! Well done!!! :thumb:
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These look great. :thumb:
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Gorgeous
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Wow, those look nice.
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Wow, those look nice.
Thanks very much Danny and everyone else. As good as they look, they sound even better. They just keep getting better and better!
I really can't wait to get my hands on the NX-treme flat packs and components. The improvement over my old subwoofers is so dramatic that I'm really looking forward to getting those done.