AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => AudioKinesis Loudspeakers => Topic started by: Duke on 3 Mar 2012, 09:27 am
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The most expensive part of a speaker is usually the cabinet, and the bigger and higher efficiency the speaker is, the more this is true.
But a considerable amount of money could be saved if I didn't have to build (or have built), crate, and ship a big cabinet. If you build (or had a local woodworker build) the cabinet, well all of a sudden a lot of possibilities open up - your choice of wood, cabinet size/bass extension, whatever. I would provide plans for two or three enclosure variations, which you could modify as needed.
This also opens up possibities to overseas customers, because most of the shipping cost would be eliminated.
Assume that high-quality prosound parts are used, and that I do my homework on the crossover.
You can vote for more than one, but if you do, please post indicating which you find the most interesting.
Thanks!
EDIT: I added the 96 dB, 12" 8-ohm after the poll started, so if anyone wants to go back and add it or change their vote, they are welcome to do so.
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This is an excellent idea Duke! Would you consider shipping assembled crossovers? I like the form factor of the Rhythm Prism, and the aesthetics of it as well. For me the 12" would be more tolerable to my better half.
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This is an excellent idea Duke! Would you consider shipping assembled crossovers? I like the form factor of the Rhythm Prism, and the aesthetics of it as well. For me the 12" would be more tolerable to my better half.
I should have made that clear, my apologies. Yes, the crossovers would be assembled and tested. No soldering necessary, just woodwork.
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Let me give a little bit more description of the kit options, as the bare-bones descriptions in the poll leave a lot out.
The 98 dB 15" speaker could be completed as a satellite or as a fullrange speaker, with in-room extension to the mid 30's in the latter format, given a suitable enclosure. Ballpark estimated cost is $850/pair for drivers + crossover + plans.
The 93 dB 12" speaker could likewise be completed as a satellite or fullrange speaker, and it would be a bit more expensive, like maybe $950/pair ballpark.
The 96 dB 15" 4-ohm speaker would go the deepest of the bunch (upper-20's in-room in a suitable box), but the tradeoff is that its midrange is not as refined as the 98 dB woofer. $700/pair ballpark.
The 96 dB 12" speaker wouldn't do very well as a full-range unless it was going to get a lot of boundary reinforcement. $750/pair ballpark.
My personal preference would be the 98 dB 15" speaker. It is something I have wanted to do for years in a finished speaker, but the box size, cost, and shipping nightmare always turned me away.
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Could you provide rough cabinet design/sizes?
Ported, sealed, other?
I assume they would follow your home/pro designs, true?
Why would a 12 inch cost more than a 15 inch?
Oh, and how about subwoofer kits?
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This is an excellent idea Duke!
+1
Why would a 12 inch cost more than a 15 inch?
More expensive driver. :dunno:
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Could you provide rough cabinet design/sizes?
Ported, sealed, other?
I assume they'd follow your home/pro designs, true?
I'd probably include plans for one stand-mount box and two floorstander boxes, one "reasonably small" and one big. The following are just estimates:
For the 15" speakers (HxWxD): Stand-mount, 25" x 17" x 15"; small floorstander, 44" x 17" x 13"; large floorstander 44" x 20" x 25".
For the 12" speakers (HxWxD): Stand-mount: 22" x 14" x 13"; small floorstander, 44" x 14" x 12"; large floorstander 44" x 16" x 20"
They'd all be ported, but could be built as sealed boxes if your particular situation called for it (like, low-damping-factor tube amps + placement in or near the room corners). In practice, if your port is the same diameter as a plumber's expandable test plug, it's easy to convert back and forth between ported and sealed, though you might want to add more stuffing in sealed-box mode.
And yes, they'd be similar in format to what I've been doing for the past few years.
Why would a 12 inch cost more than a 15 inch?
More expensive woofer, higher parts cost on the crossover
Oh, and how about subwoofer kits?
A parts-only subwoofer kit would be pretty simple! Woofer, plate amp, maybe a port. Not really any place for me to add value, so I'd have to buy in large quantities to get my costs down low enough to be competitive and profitable, which would be a poor use of my limited resources. In these two-way kits, I can add value though my crossover design. Often the main hurdle facing the casual (or even serious) DIY guy is the crossover design, so that's where my window of opportunity lies.
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Do you have a driver in mind for the 15" 98dB version?
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Do you have a driver in mind for the 15" 98dB version?
Actually, I have two in mind. I've worked with one already, and there's another that looks good on paper but I haven't tried it yet. Not that there aren't many good high-efficiency 15" woofers out there, but I'm looking for a particular balance of characteristics in something that's not too expensive.
That being said, I certainly haven't heard and probably haven't modelled everything out there. So if you've found something you really like, feel free to mention it.
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Next question (and why I asked about doing a sub kit):
What F3 did you have in mind?
I'm also curious about crossover points/design (I know woofers that big start beaming at quite low frequencies).
Any chance of offering active kits? :dance:
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Duke, what do you think about a kit designed to fit in the PE birch trapezoidal flat pack enclosures?
http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?FTR=birch+trapezoid&search_type=main&WebPage_ID=3&searchFilter=birch+trapezoid&x=41&y=3
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Hi Duke,
I voted for the 15"/ 98db version -- I'd buy your kit version of that speaker in a second.
Regards,
John
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I am already planning on buying the 98db/15" kit. So you have to make it now.
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Next question (and why I asked about doing a sub kit):
What F3 did you have in mind?
The F3 depends on how big a box you want to build. For example, in a 2.5 cubic foot stand-mount box, the 98 dB 15" will go down to between 80 and 65 Hz (-3 dB), depending on how you tune it. There are some advantages to tuning lower and having a higher F3, especially if subwoofage is involved. On the other hand, in a 10 cubic foot floor-standing box, the same 15" kit will extend into the 30's (how far down into the 30's depends in part on how much boundary reinforcement we get).
I'm also curious about crossover points/design (I know woofers that big start beaming at quite low frequencies).
The crossover for the 98 dB 15" kit hasn't been designed yet. Some juggling of tradeoffs is inevitable. Note that most large woofers do not beam as badly as rigid piston theory predicts, because they do not behave as rigid pistons. The 15" candidate woofer that I have worked with holds up considerably better than rigid piston theory predicts off-axis due to its cone design; the other one I haven't measured yet. Its cone construction is different and so is the profile so I won't know until I measure it.
Any chance of offering active kits?
Not in the forseeable future, sorry. I don't want to be responsible for servicing DSP amplifier modules.
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Duke, what do you think about a kit designed to fit in the PE birch trapezoidal flat pack enclosures?
http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?FTR=birch+trapezoid&search_type=main&WebPage_ID=3&searchFilter=birch+trapezoid&x=41&y=3
YES! That could definitely work!
Now there are two modifications I would highly recommend to the PE trapezoidal boxes: First, remove the lip from around the front baffle. It would be a source of cupped-hands coloration. Second, brace the narrow area between the woofer cut-out and where the horn cut-out will be, so that the front baffle won't have a weak spot. Of course you can brace more than just that area, but that would be my top priority.
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Hi Duke,
I voted for the 15"/ 98db version -- I'd buy your kit version of that speaker in a second.
Regards,
John
I am already planning on buying the 98db/15" kit. So you have to make it now.
Okay guys, I'll get working on it!!
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Hmmm!
This has got me thinking - a pair of the 98dB 15s with the Ncore amps spoken of recently could provide some sort of ultimate bang - for - buck... :scratch: :o
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Hi Duke,
Late to this poll. George Short of North Creek used to offer a range of speaker designs as kits. His core expertise was in crossover design, and the crossovers were things of beauty. As I remember, he had a local cabinetmaker lined up to offer pre-built cabinets for those who didn't want to do the assembly. I built a couple of his speaker kits, a pair of which still sit in my living room. Anyway, if you know George, you could check with him about his experiences doing this. He was quite helpful to his DIY customers, and I think it was a fun part of his business for a while. But he did quit, so it might be worthwhile talking to him about his reasons. Not trying to discourage you -- quite the opposite, in fact. Knowing what you are getting into might help you get the most out of it!
Hope this helps!
Frank
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Hi Duke,
Late to this poll. George Short of North Creek used to offer a range of speaker designs as kits. His core expertise was in crossover design, and the crossovers were things of beauty. As I remember, he had a local cabinetmaker lined up to offer pre-built cabinets for those who didn't want to do the assembly. I built a couple of his speaker kits, a pair of which still sit in my living room. Anyway, if you know George, you could check with him about his experiences doing this. He was quite helpful to his DIY customers, and I think it was a fun part of his business for a while. But he did quit, so it might be worthwhile talking to him about his reasons. Not trying to discourage you -- quite the opposite, in fact. Knowing what you are getting into might help you get the most out of it!
Hope this helps!
Frank
I don't know George, sorry, but do remember North Creek Audio kits.
Wayne Parham offers high-efficiency kits, and Earl Geddes did for a while. I don't think it has been the path to riches for anyone, but I'm just hoping for a few bucks on the side. Also with the 98 dB 15" kits, I'm able to do something that just wouldn't be practical if I had to build and ship them as completed speakers.
Today I received the promising-looking 15" woofer that I hadn't used before, and I like what I'm seeing in my preliminary measurements. No hidden nasties, and if anything its response "leans" in the right direction for what I want to do. Hope to have time this weekend to start on the crossover.
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Doubt if you could find existing pre-built cabinets to fit 12 inch designs let alone 15 inchers. But pre-cut flat panels could be a niche for an out of work cabinet builder. With a day or two notice a pair of kits should be able to be provided.
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Hi Duke:
Could the below waveguide be used in your 15"/ 98db version kit?
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguides/seos/plastic-seos.html
Regards,
Randy
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I think this is a wonderful idea! I am already working on a few speakers or I might be interested.
I think you might talk with Erich about getting the SEOS waveguide. Of course I am a bit biased as I helped design it.
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If I had this option when I built my troels DTQWT (DOUBLE TAPERED QUARTER WAVE TUBE).
I definitely would have sourced it locally instead. Its a 10" 96db with wave guide.
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This is exciting!
The SEOS 15"/18" horn + a good 15" midbass and great x-over design. 8)
I'll be looking after this thread! :thumb:
Cheers,
Ian
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Hi Duke:
Could the below waveguide be used in your 15"/ 98db version kit?
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguides/seos/plastic-seos.html
I think this is a wonderful idea! I am already working on a few speakers or I might be interested.
I think you might talk with Erich about getting the SEOS waveguide. Of course I am a bit biased as I helped design it.
Thanks for the suggestion, rklein and JoshK! I just pre-ordered a pair so I can check them out. Looks very promising.
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This is exciting!
The SEOS 15"/18" horn + a good 15" midbass and great x-over design.
Assuming I can make it work, the smaller waveguide that rklein linked to would be my choice over the big one. I would not have said that a couple of years ago, but having a bit more experience with juggling the applicable tradeoffs, I'm less averse to using what appears to be an "undersized" waveguide than I used to be. All else being equal, the smaller the waveguide, the less energy ends up in higher order modes (HOMs).
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P.S. he also is having compression driver being made that is meant to be very similar to the DE250 but said to be a bit better in some regards and somewhere around the $50-60 mark. Good for a high performance but budget minded kit.
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Thanks for the suggestion, rklein and JoshK! I just pre-ordered a pair so I can check them out. Looks very promising.
Based on the above, I also just pre-ordered a pair as well. :thumb:
And yes, Josh is correct about the compression driver that Erich over at DIY Sound Group is having manufactured which looks very promising.
Regards,
Randy
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Is the woofer a secret?
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Is the woofer a secret?
I would rather get to the point where I've listened to a successful prototype before announcing what the drivers are.
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Does that 15" driver continue to impress? What else can you share about your sonic design goals for this project? I already have a large Scanspeak/RAAL monitor, and I am interested in owning a very different design like this one. Maybe I should have bought a Rythm Prism when I had the money, but I went the monitor route at the time, perhaps I can rectify matters with this kit. The monitor is great, I think I am just intrigued with the idea of living with radically different designs and seeing which I gravitate to over time. It would be my first project. Too dangerous for a beginner? Keep up the great work Duke. I am glad to see your bass cab doing so well.
Paul
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I think I am just intrigued with the idea of living with radically different designs and seeing which I gravitate to over time.
Paul
I can relate to this. For a long time I lived with a pair of Tannoy Ardens (15" coax in large reflex box) and a pair of subs, plus a pair of Harbeth HLP3s (very small near field monitors) as alternates for judging my recordings. I almost never listened to the Harbeths, although their top end was creamy smooth - by comparison the Tannoys were coarse - and their mids were probably more accurate. The Tannoys were simply more fun and relaxed, due, I think to their ease with the loud bits. At that point I understood the appeal of larger drivers.
It seems there is no substitute for cubes, as the car guys say.
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Does that 15" driver continue to impress? What else can you share about your sonic design goals for this project? I already have a large Scanspeak/RAAL monitor, and I am interested in owning a very different design like this one. Maybe I should have bought a Rythm Prism when I had the money, but I went the monitor route at the time, perhaps I can rectify matters with this kit. The monitor is great, I think I am just intrigued with the idea of living with radically different designs and seeing which I gravitate to over time. It would be my first project. Too dangerous for a beginner? Keep up the great work Duke. I am glad to see your bass cab doing so well.
Haven't had a chance to work with the new woofer anymore, beyond the initial measurements. Until I've done some serious ears-on with tweeter & crossover, I really won't know which way I'm going on the woofer, but at this point it looks like I have two promising choices.
My goals are very good dynamics, no distracting colorations, tube friendly (though not tube dependent), and get the reverberant field right via pattern control & judicious juggling of tradeoffs. Bass extension vs box size will be one tradeoff that the builder will have to wrestle with.
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Just a thought. If you make the kit out of the Thunderchild cab you already have all the R&D done.
Duc
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Assuming I can make it work, the smaller waveguide that rklein linked to would be my choice over the big one. I would not have said that a couple of years ago, but having a bit more experience with juggling the applicable tradeoffs, I'm less averse to using what appears to be an "undersized" waveguide than I used to be. All else being equal, the smaller the waveguide, the less energy ends up in higher order modes (HOMs).
Why do the larger waveguides have more of a problem with HOMs? If that's the case why not go with the 10" SEOS? Geddes had the 15" Summa which supposedly sounded better than the Abbey. I've noticed that he's no longer offering the Summa but still has the Abbey, the 10" Nathan and the 8" Harper. Would the Harper have the least problem with HOMs? Isn't the HOM problem mitigated with the reticulated cell foam insert? Some think that the SEOS will have less problem with HOMs than the Geddes style WG. Early reports have been very positive.
With the larger waveguides, you can have a lower crossover. Is this just a series of tradeoffs? Hmm...I wonder what optimum size would be according to the numbers? The plastic 12" SEOSs are certainly a lot cheaper than the imported fiberglass ones. Maybe they'd be the most cost effective size/material for your kits. I think that Erich will eventually offer a larger selection of sizes in the plastic material in the future. Only 12" for now.
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Just a thought. If you make the kit out of the Thunderchild cab you already have all the R&D done.
Two problems with the Thunderchild as a home audio kit: First, it's a 4-ohm load, and many if not most potential customers for a high-efficiency home audio kit will be using specialty tube amps (SET or OTL) that do better into a higher impedance load.
Second, Eminence's rules don't allow me to sell custom woofers (like I'm using in the Thunderchild 12 and 15) unless they are in a finished cabinet - in other words, I can't offer them in kits. Sorry!
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Why do the larger waveguides have more of a problem with HOMs?
Because more internal bounces back and forth are possible.
If that's the case why not go with the 10" SEOS?
It's a juggling of tradeoffs. I've used the 12" JBL/Pyle waveguide with a 15" woofer with good results, but not sure I could do so with a 10" waveguide.
Isn't the HOM problem mitigated with the reticulated cell foam insert [in Geddes designs]?
Yes. That's a patented technology, so I can't use it without permission.
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Hi Duke.
Did you ever make any progress regarding your woofer evaluation?
Thanks!
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Hi Duke.
Did you ever make any progress regarding your woofer evaluation?
Thanks!
Yes, I actually purchased and measured four different woofers because there were a couple others that showed up on my radar screen. I have finished the woofer selection process but have not had time to do the crossover design.
Duke
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This sounds like something I would be interested in.
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Duke, I'm a little late to this party, but interested all the same.
Missed you at LSAF this year, the scuttlebut was that you were moving? Possibly what you intimated to me last year at said same show....?
Have you had time to work on the XO's yet.
Inquiring minds want to know....
John
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Duke, I'm a little late to this party, but interested all the same.
Missed you at LSAF this year, the scuttlebut was that you were moving? Possibly what you intimated to me last year at said same show....?
Have you had time to work on the XO's yet.
Inquiring minds want to know....
Yes, Lori and I have the house up for sale, hoping to move to the north-of-Dallas area.
I have done my measurement suites and have the data I need to design the initial iteration of the crossover, and am working on that step (among other things). Once the inital design looks good on paper, I'll build-measure-refine until the measurements look good, then I'll move on to listening tests (which usually leads to more refinements).
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Yes, Lori and I have the house up for sale, hoping to move to the north-of-Dallas area.
Dallas, Texas? :o
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Thanks for the suggestion, rklein and JoshK! I just pre-ordered a pair so I can check them out. Looks very promising.
Based on the above, I also just pre-ordered a pair as well.
And yes, Josh is correct about the compression driver that Erich over at DIY Sound Group is having manufactured which looks very promising.
Regards,
Randy
Duke:
Did you ever receive your Seos Waveguides? I have yet to hear anything since I ordered mine. :scratch:
Regards,
Randy
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Yes, Lori and I have the house up for sale, hoping to move to the north-of-Dallas area.
I have done my measurement suites and have the data I need to design the initial iteration of the crossover, and am working on that step (among other things). Once the inital design looks good on paper, I'll build-measure-refine until the measurements look good, then I'll move on to listening tests (which usually leads to more refinements).
If you decdie to pull the trigger on the North/North of Dallas notion up let me know. I'm a DFW lifer and know the area very well. It's an area inwhich one requires an expert real estate agent - independent shcool districts, hundreds of towns and cities, limited public transportation and no end in sight to the growth, planned highway construction that will make some commutes 405-like for a number of years - you get my point.
After thinking about your potential kit offerings I'd be extremely interested in the best sound with an eye towards the smallest foot-print/WAF combo.
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Why do the larger waveguides have more of a problem with HOMs? If that's the case why not go with the 10" SEOS? Geddes had the 15" Summa which supposedly sounded better than the Abbey. I've noticed that he's no longer offering the Summa but still has the Abbey, the 10" Nathan and the 8" Harper. Would the Harper have the least problem with HOMs? Isn't the HOM problem mitigated with the reticulated cell foam insert? Some think that the SEOS will have less problem with HOMs than the Geddes style WG. Early reports have been very positive.
You can DIY the foam, this stuff could work to reduce HOM's it would cost you a little efficency.
http://www.thefoamfactory.com/opencellfoam/filter.html
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You can DIY the foam, this stuff could work to reduce HOM's it would cost you a little efficency.
Imo the crossover would need to be designed with the foam in place, as does attenuate the energy that passes through, the shorter wavelengths moreso than the longer ones.
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Hi Duke,
Just curious -- any update on the kit? Hope the move went well.
Regards,
John
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Second, Eminence's rules don't allow me to sell custom woofers (like I'm using in the Thunderchild 12 and 15) unless they are in a finished cabinet - in other words, I can't offer them in kits. Sorry!
what? a long list of brands supply custom eminence kits for years. ex. these:
http://hawthorneaudio.us/products/
http://www.bastanis.com/kits.html
hawthorne have sold hundreds of coaxdrivers, without any cabinet or even a drawing (open baffle)
thats wierd if you got that response from eminence :/
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Update - the compression driver that I want to use in the kit will finally be available some time in November, according to the manufacturer. I have tested a sample and am very happy with it. It's a polymer-diaphragm driver that goes up to an honest 20 kHz, and it isn't outrageously expensive. The only other polymer diaphragm compression drivers I know of that go up to 20 kHz are very expensive, and I do not like their internal geometry as much. The tradeoff that this new driver makes is, both its efficiency and its power handling are fairly modest by compression driver standards, but that's not going to be an issue until we start pushing 118 dB or so.
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Glad to hear you're making progress, Duke!
Would you mind elaborating a bit regarding what bothers you about the internal geometry of the other drivers you looked at, or conversely, what features you specifically look for in terms of internal geometry?
It also sounds as if you were specifically targeting a polymer diaphragm. Is that an acoustic or engineering derived preference?
By the way, were you targeting a specific throat diameter to match a given waveguide, or were you looking at the driver regardless of opening and then finding a waveguide to match?
No need to spill any secret sauce if you don't want to - I'm just always curious about the logic and motives that drive the specific compromises inherent to speaker design.
Thanks!
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Would you mind elaborating a bit regarding what bothers you about the internal geometry of the other drivers you looked at, or conversely, what features you specifically look for in terms of internal geometry?
What I look at is how the internal geometry of the compression driver matches up with the horn or waveguide geometry. So what works really wall for one pairing might not work so well for another.
It also sounds as if you were specifically targeting a polymer diaphragm. Is that an acoustic or engineering derived preference?
I generally prefer polymer diaphrams because a) I think they are less likely to sound edgy and b) they don't have a spike in the response that I have to deal with. Now there are metal diaphragm compression drivers that behave very well, but none that have the combination of characteristics I'm looking for in this case.
By the way, were you targeting a specific throat diameter to match a given waveguide, or were you looking at the driver regardless of opening and then finding a waveguide to match?
Yes, 1" throat. That size will go higher than a large-format driver (1.4" to 2" throat), still go low enough for my target crossover, and the cost is far less. Also I like the available off-the-shelf options in horns and waveguides better at 1" throat than in the larger throat sizes. While it is possible to get wide pattern coverage up high with a large-format compression driver, you have to use some sort of diffractive horn, which I try to avoid. So now we're looking at a three-way if we want to do justice to the top octave. I'm not saying you can't build a killer system around a large-format compression driver, but it's considerably more expensive and complicated to do so.
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Any idea where the crossover point will likely be located now that you have a driver chosen?
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Any idea where the crossover point will likely be located now that you have a driver chosen?
1.5 kHz ballpark. Yeah I know that seems high for a 15" woofer, but this particular woofer's off-axis dispersion holds up better than most 12" woofers. When I launch the kit I'll post the identity of the drivers, and you'll be able to look at the off-axis data and see what I mean.
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Sounds like you're making great progress, Duke. Looking forward to seeing how it turns out.
Did you ever get a chance to check out the SEOS horns? If so, your impressions? I have a pair laying around, but haven't yet gotten to do anything with them.
Regards,
John
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Did you ever get a chance to check out the SEOS horns? If so, your impressions? I have a pair laying around, but haven't yet gotten to do anything with them.
I have not received mine yet, but expect to soon. Was in communication with Eric yesterday.
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How about I send you mine? They're just sitting in a box. My wife and I are in the process of moving and it'll be months before I do anything with them.
Regards,
John
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How about I send you mine? They're just sitting in a box. My wife and I are in the process of moving and it'll be months before I do anything with them.
Regards,
John
Thank you, John! But I think mine are being shipped in the next day or so. Apparently Eric had sent me an e-mail some time ago and I missed it (probably went into my spam folder and got deleted), and that derailed the communication between us and delayed the shipment.
Eric is also sending me a smaller waveguide, something that used to be available in the US a couple of years ago and then was discontinued. The availability of this smaller waveguide through Eric allows me to revisit another project that has been on the shelf for the past couple of years.
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Hey Duke,
I hope things are well. Any update on the kit?
Regards,
John
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Hi John,
Still waiting on that shipment of compression drivers. In the meantime I managed to snag a couple from Europe and get started on the crossover design.
Duke
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Thanks for the update, Duke. Hope you had a wonderful holiday.
Regards,
John
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Hey Duke,
Any new developments on your kit project?
Cheers,
- Jim
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Any new developments on your kit project?
I no longer think my kit would be unique:
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-series-kits/fusion15-kit.html
So I'm debating whether to go ahead with it. Looks like the concept is already being executed well, and at a very attractive price for a kit using high-end drivers and waveguides.
On the technical side, it looks like the kit (if I do it) would clock in around 99 dB. So mine would arguably be a bit more tube friendly. Enough to differentiate it?
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Speaking for myself, I'm still 'In' for your kit. Me and my 7W amp think the +3db is definitely worth it.
Now, if you don't think the market for the kit is as promising as it once was, perhaps you can scale back your offering. Possibly offer the design (drivers & waveguide selection plus crossover schematic and a few notes on box design) in PDF format for a fee. I'd send you more than a couple bucks for that, today.
I'm not sure you are giving yourself enough credit, Duke. A kit with the Audiokinesis brand attached to it is surely a premium offering.
Regards,
John
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Speaking for myself, I'm still 'In' for your kit. Me and my 7W amp think the +3db is definitely worth it.
Now, if you don't think the market for the kit is as promising as it once was, perhaps you can scale back your offering. Possibly offer the design (drivers & waveguide selection plus crossover schematic and a few notes on box design) in PDF format for a fee. I'd send you more than a couple bucks for that, today.
I'm not sure you are giving yourself enough credit, Duke. A kit with the Audiokinesis brand attached to it is surely a premium offering.
Regards,
John
Thanks, John.
Okay, the kit is moving ahead, and it's now 99 dB. The manufacturer claims 99 dB for the woofer and that's usually based on peak instead of average SPL, but in this case I think it's justified as the response is fairly smooth up to 4 kHz (which is pretty good for a 15" woofer). I listened to the kitspeaker next to a 4-ohm speaker known to be 97 dB efficient (based on T/S parameters and measurements), using a constant-voltage solid state amp, mono source, and just going back and forth between them with the balance control. The kitspeaker was a bit louder. So I think I'm safe claiming 99 dB.
The compression driver goes up to 20 kHz, so we have real top end extension. Does it with a polymer diaphragm too, rather than metal. I bought a case of the drivers so I can do matched pairs.
The low end extension will of course be box-size-dependent (as well as room and amp dependent), and that's where builders will have a chance to maximize their bang for the buck by tailoring the box to their situation. But the woofer's parameters are pretty good for low end extension, for a high-efficiency woofer. Mid 30's is quite feasible.
I'm definitely aiming at the low-powered tube amp market, so I'm keeping the impedance curve fairly benign, between 7 and 12 ohms north of the bass impedance peaks. And the top end will be user-adjustable (tilt up or tilt down) via an external resistor in a cup.
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Hi Duke,
Hope all is well. Been watching this thread closely as I decide my next speakers. Any chance of an update on the kit -- price, drivers? Thanks,
Rob
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Doubt if you could find existing pre-built cabinets to fit 12 inch designs let alone 15 inchers. But pre-cut flat panels could be a niche for an out of work cabinet builder. With a day or two notice a pair of kits should be able to be provided.
Parts Express has trapezoidal knock-down enclosure kits, intended for prosound, that would work for a stand-mount version would be used with subs. But I don't think anyone is offering a flat pack that would work for a large floor-stander.
I've contacted a couple of woodworkers to gauge their interest in possibly offering a flat-pack, but no luck so far. If you have someone in mind, shoot me an e-mail.
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New kid on the block here at AC. I have been a long time Atma-Sphere owner (M-60's and MP-3) and have been looking at different options for upgrading my speaker situation. Ralph holds your speakers in very high regard and a little searching has brought me here (as well as your AK site). I have been looking at your speakers, especially the Jazz Modules. How would this kit compare to these speakers? I have been looking into upgrading crossover's on my Talon Khorus' but would be much more interested in building my own speakers, especially if they look/sound similar to your Jazz's.
Cheers,
RG
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An update to this thread is long overdue...
Something that has drastically narrowed the opportunities for a commercially successful kit is the very solid entry of DIY Sound Group into the kit arena. Baasically, this site offers (among other things) what appear to me to be very thoroughly engineered kit designs, and with less mark-up than you would expect to see from a commercial venture.
In particular, for $812 per pair, you can get a very high quality high efficiency 15" two-way kit. Here's the link:
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-series-kits/fusion15-kit.html
Or you can go to PiSpeakers.com and get a very high quality high efficiency 15" two-way kit for $800 to $1450 per pair depending on driver options. There's more markup in the PiSpeaker kits, but more experience with that type of speaker behind them as well. Here's that link:
http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/3/products_id/108\
I don't think I can offer any better bang-for-the-buck than either of these. Neither one is tacking on very much markup, and the DIY Sound Group kit includes a pre-routed frount baffle.
The DIY Sound Group Fusion 15 kit is probably aimed more at the uber-home-theater market, and so is presumably designed for solid state amps (this is just a guess on my part - I don't know it for a fact). The PiSpeakers kits are designed to work well with most tube amps, though they probably would work well with solid state also.
So I haven't forotten about the kit, but I'm not really seeing that there's an unfilled niche either.
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Thanks for the update, Duke. Totally understand your thinking on this topic; I can imagine that it would be daunting to enter the market when people like Bill Waslo are publicly posting seemingly well-done crossovers for premium drivers. Your crossover-fu would be worth a premium, but it must be tough to compete with 'free'...
I'm glad to see you have been having such good success with your other projects. I'm sure your new project with Jim will be a winner.
Regards,
John
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Instead of a "better bang-for-the-buck" kit, why not just a better kit?
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Instead of a "better bang-for-the-buck" kit, why not just a better kit?
Hmmm... okay, just thinking out loud here...
There are a couple of really good 15" woofers out there that come to mind: The Supravox 400 EXC (uber expensive French field coil woofer) and the Acoustic Elegance TD15M. If I were to do something involving either one, the woofer wouldn't be included in the kit because I wouldn't be able to buy them in sufficient quantity to get a discount, so the builder might as well buy them direct and save that much shipping cost & risk.
I'm interested in trying the SEOS 15 waveguide once it's available. Imo the SEOS 12 is a bit on the small side for use with a 15" woofer, as it starts losing pattern control a bit higher up than I'm totally comfortable with for that application.
Now I would expect the DIY Sound Group designers to be all over the SEOS 15 soon as it comes out, but I'm not sure the AE TD15M fits in with their focus, and it's extremely unlikely that the Supravox does.
My current favorite compression driver isn't a perfect match for the entry angle of the SEOS waveguides, so I'd want to modify said entry angle to match the exit angle of the compression driver. That would take a special tool, which I've already designed.
Last time I bought a pair of the Supravox woofers was a decade or so ago, back when they had a US distributor, and the pair set me back about 2.4 grand. It's the best-sounding big woofer I've worked with, and I really like being able to dial in the Qts for best synergy with your amp and room. Of course on top of the 2.4 grand in 2003-ish dollars, there's the additional expense of a regulated power supply for the electromagnet. The AE TD15M is a screaming bargain in comparision at a mere 600 bucks or so per pair.
So if I were to try to do a better kit, it would probably be woofers-not-included, but modified waveguide + 20 kHz compression driver + crossover + plans included.
Realistically the AE woofer is a more likely candidate than the Supravox, but I wanted to mention the Supravox because that's the farthest I've been down the "better" road, in some ways at least.
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Hi Duke,
They've already started putting out SEOS15 designs. Here's one from Bill using the TD15M: AE TD15M and SEOS15 (with DNA360) (http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=182.0). I'll leave it to you to judge what kind of job Bill did with the crossover.
That said, if you're still looking to judge market-size, I'd still buy what you're thinking of offering (modified waveguide + 20 kHz compression driver + crossover + plans included) because I think your design work is worth the premium. At the same time, I'll totally understand if you don't move forward -- I can't imagine the margins for you would be very much on something like that, and it's not like you don't have plenty of other projects that provide a bit more of a return for your efforts.
Regards,
John
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Hi Duke,
They've already started putting out SEOS15 designs. Here's one from Bill using the TD15M: AE TD15M and SEOS15 (with DNA360) (http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=182.0). I'll leave it to you to judge what kind of job Bill did with the crossover.
That said, if you're still looking to judge market-size, I'd still buy what you're thinking of offering (modified waveguide + 20 kHz compression driver + crossover + plans included) because I think your design work is worth the premium. At the same time, I'll totally understand if you don't move forward -- I can't imagine the margins for you would be very much on something like that, and it's not like you don't have plenty of other projects that provide a bit more of a return for your efforts.
Regards,
John
Thanks for your understanding and encouragement, John! And for the information... I had forgotten that the fiberglass SEOS 15 has been available for a while now; it's the less-expensive plastic version I was talking about, though maybe my timeline is off about that as well.
I'd aim to keep the impedance curve from dipping as much as Bill describes in that thread - his dip isn't bad, but I'd be targeting tube amps more deliberately than he is.
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compression driver
Which one?
Realistically the AE woofer is a more likely candidate than the Supravox, but I wanted to mention the Supravox because that's the farthest I've been down the "better" road, in some ways at least.
Maybe an option for some that would want the "best"? Do a design for both.
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I, for one would be interested in seeing pricing for both the AE and the Supravox.
Thanks for even thinking about offering a kit! :thumb:
Regards,
Randy
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Thanks for continuing to consider it, Duke!
One other question... for those that have or plan to acquire an array of subs to cover the bottom end and thus might not need the mains to go so low, would a 12" version of the this concept lose anything other than that some bass?
Presumably the crossover point would move up, but the benefit is a smaller, less imposing cabinet.
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Which one?
Sorry, still keeping that to myself. Can't let the DIYers get the jump on me across the board!
Maybe an option for some that would want the "best"? Do a design for both.
I, for one would be interested in seeing pricing for both the AE and the Supravox.
A quick cost/benefit analysis leans me towards the Acoustic Elegance version, as I'd have to make a much larger investment to develop the Supravox kit, and would probably sell fewer of them. Since my markup would be based on the components I'd actually be selling, my profit would be the same for either kit.
The AE woofer is $658/pair + shipping from Green Bay, Wisconson.
The Supravox is about $2300/pair (not as bad as I'd expected) + shipping from Laval, Quebec, Canada.
A rough guesstimate for compression driver + modified waveguide + crossover + plans comes to $800/pair (with decent but not exotic crossover parts), out of which I'd make about $170. If I let you guys assemble the crossover, you'd save maybe $60 and I'd make about $110. In the latter case, my profit would all come off of the difference between dealer cost and retail on the compression driver. That's a lot of work just to sell a compression driver at retail. Maybe $800 would be the introductory price, after which I'd let it creep up.
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Thanks for continuing to consider it, Duke!
One other question... for those that have or plan to acquire an array of subs to cover the bottom end and thus might not need the mains to go so low, would a 12" version of the this concept lose anything other than that some bass?
Presumably the crossover point would move up, but the benefit is a smaller, less imposing cabinet.
Hmmm... after reading the other currently active thread, it sounds like the 12" implementation that I asked about might effectively be a kit version of the Jazz Module 2.0. Still, it'd likely be potentially more interesting than the 15" version for those that have the bass covered with an array of subs, unless there is something else unique to the 15" implementation. (And I don't discount the importance of where the crossover frequency is located relative to the sensitivity of human hearing.)
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One other question... for those that have or plan to acquire an array of subs to cover the bottom end and thus might not need the mains to go so low, would a 12" version of the this concept lose anything other than that some bass?
Presumably the crossover point would move up, but the benefit is a smaller, less imposing cabinet.
The 15" kit would be adaptable to a smaller stand-mount cabinet, whereas a 12" stand-mount kit of comparable efficiency probably would not be adaptable to a floorstander (not enough bass even with the larger box).
Hmmm... after reading the other currently active thread, it sounds like the 12" implementation that I asked about might effectively be a kit version of the Jazz Module 2.0. Still, it'd likely be potentially more interesting than the 15" version for those that have the bass covered with an array of subs, unless there is something else unique to the 15" implementation. (And I don't discount the importance of where the crossover frequency is located relative to the sensitivity of human hearing.)
The Jazz Module 2.0 will use a 10" woofer, and won't be available in kit form. It'll have one or two other things going on that won't be offered in the kits.
Here are a couple of very good 12" kits:
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/alpha-series-kits/alpha12-kit.html
http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/97, especially with the Definimax and B&C compression driver upgrade
Notice that the Definimax woofer is in both of those recommended kits. That's the woofer I use in custom studio monitors. It works in a floorstander or a stand-mount, but trades off efficiency along the way.
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Oops, sorry wrong thread.
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Notice that the Definimax woofer is in both of those recommended kits. That's the woofer I use in custom studio monitors. It works in a floorstander or a stand-mount, but trades off efficiency along the way.
Duke - is the Definimax 4015LF the driver you plan on using in the 15" version of your Autokinesis kit?
gab
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Duke - is the Definimax 4015LF the driver you plan on using in the 15" version of your Autokinesis kit?
The Definimax 3012HO has very good midrange response, but the 4015LF isn't so good in the midrange, so I'd be using a different 15" woofer. Possibly a Faital.