[ajvare]

I was preparing a detailed post on my LP ripping project and weak links in the chain from LP to computer playback (see below) but came up with a more immediate question:

With so many audiophile-oriented DACs out there and many of them coming from small companies that I have never heard of I'm wondering if we wouldn't do as well or better using pro audio gear.

I started thinking about this as I was looking at audio interfaces for recording; most of them play back and it seems logical that if I rip an LP with a certain A/D box that the same box should do a good job going D/A as well. I bought an Apogee Duet from Sweetwater (no plugging but they seems like a good pro audio source) and have been very happy with the results so far. I visited my local pro music store (Bananas at Large in San Rafael CA) and they made a strong argument for pro gear. They say they sell all manner of recording gear to pro studios, including AD/DA boxes and that the ones they sell (Pre-Sonus, RME, Apogee, ...) are validated by the people making the recordings and should get a more through shake out as products than consumer stuff. Depending on what you buy it seems that pro stuff is cheaper too.

So: is it possible to get a DAC (that is also a AD/DA box) from, a pro audio source that is as good or better than a Berkeley Alpha or Weiss et al?

Thanks (comments on the recording screed below welcome as well).

------------------
LP Ripping Project

Analog

1)   Rega Planar 25 w/Stock Tonearm
2)   Dynavector 10x5 High Output Moving Coil
3)   Stock Interconnects to Phono Preamp
4)   Moon LP3 Phono Preamp
5)   Medium quality Audioquest Interconnects to Duet

Digital

6)   Apogee Duet (XLR line-in, set to “XLR Mic” for adjustable gain)
a.   Duet is 24bit/96Hz max
b.   Connects to Mac over Firewire 400
7)   iMac
a.   3.06 GhHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4 GB SDRAM
b.   OSX v. 10.6.5
   Peak LE v. 6.2.0
a.   Records 24bit/96Hz AIFF files (need to upgrade to do other formats)
b.   I do very little editing in Peak, some times increase gain a bit
9)   Click Repair v3.3.1 (great tool)

Playback

10)   From the iMac – not the critical listening location
a.   Duet back out to an Old NAD 3020
b.   B&W Book shelf
11)   Using AirPlay over the Airport – Main listening area for now
a.   Airport to DAC with Toslink, decent quality cable (Note: As some point I’ll get a Mac Mini or other server with its own hard drive and copy of the library to feed the DAC and playback directly. Using Airplay I understand that everything gets down sampled to 16bits/44.1 Hz)
b.   Cambridge DAC Magic, RCA to Creek with high quality Audioquest cables
c.   Creek 4330SE
d.   Vienna Acoustics Mozart speakers

Questions
1)   Without respect to playback, where is the weakest link in the analog to digital file chain? I’m ripping my 500+ albums slowly and don’t want to regret a poor choice later.
2)   Is there much to be gained from upgrading to 24bit/192Hz?
a.   Cost could be high for new A/D, D/A, Recording S/W (Peak Pro is $500), etc.
b.   Thoughts on using a Professional DAC for both the recording now and later move it to the main kit for playback? (Something like the Apogee Ensemble [http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Ensemble/ ] or the RME Babayface [http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Babyface/ ]
3)   While not too worried about storage this means a much bigger library when done (most of the CDs are in AIFF right now)

[kenreau]

Sorry, I have no direct experience in your specific task, but I'll toss out a couple of products I see mentioned very favorably.  One, the Metric Halo (LIO-8) DACs.  I'm torn between it and the Weiss DAC202.  I love the FireWire utilization in lieu of USB for passing digits.

Also, check out the Channel D "Pure Vinyl" software suite

Kenreau

[firedog]

Not at all sure I agree with your premises about pro vs. audiophile. But if you want to go Pro and use a MAC, the obvious answer would be one of the Metric Halo Boxes. The LIO and some of the others are DA and AD (both high quality), which would be great for your project.

[Crimson]

Of the pro dacs out there, Ive used the Metric Halo LIO8, RME Fireface 400, and the Apogee Minidac Firewire. The first two are firewire only but offer both AD and DA conversion, while the Apogee is DA only but provides multiple interfaces. Sound-wise, I prefer the MH and RME which are both highly tweakable in software. I've also ripped vinyl using Pure Vinyl and Audacity and prefer the former at 24/192.

As to pro vs audiophile, you're pretty much stuck with a pro unit for the AD process. That said, for playback, pro units definitely have a 'house' sound: sterile, IMO. Whether or not that's your cup of tea is for you to decide. I prefer audiophile dacs (running Pure Music or the latest version of Amarra).

Oh, and welcome to AC!

[daddydoom]

ajvare,

Not trying to highjack your thread , but your timing couldn't be better. I am also looking for a stand  alone ad/da converter. i have been using the duet for about a year now and don't have any problems with its ablilty to record. Its the playback that is lacking.

I don't know what your price range is,but in my research the Prism Orpheus seems to be a good choice and it looks better than most pro gear.

Some of the pro gear you have to buy breakout cables after the fact to connect everything.

Matt

[ted_b]

Just an fyi that I've demo'd inhouse over a dozen quality DACs over the past year, and the Metric Halo LIO-8 is a stellar performer.  I don't find it sterile at all.  It is, however, quite revealing.    For me an added benefit is that it will accept multichannel digital AES, which may be my ultimate multichannel setup: modded Oppo 83 with Shawn Fogg's 4 SPDIF board to LIo-8 via Canare impedance transformers (bnc to XLR) and LIo-8 DB-25 snake built by Redco.    It also can be used as a phono pre, since the inputs allow pre-installed RIAA curve EQ software (see thread on Computer Audiophile forum).

An inexpensive but wonderful sounding pro AD/DA is the Steinberg MR816X.  Punches way above its weight.  It is also multichannel, but less flexible.  It is only 24/96 max...but is also only $650 at Sweetwater, with a risk-free 30 day return policy.  I have one inhouse now and it continues to amaze for that price.

And yes, it's nice to have some Neutik TRS adapters around for these DACs, as they don't believe in native XLR or RCA analog outputs.

[bunnyma357]

I've been very happy with my $300 Focusrite AD/DA, although I'm sure it doesn't deliver Metric Halo level performance, it also was less then 10% of the cost.

I'd second using Pure Vinyl as digitizing software (plus for enhanced iTunes playback) - I've eliminated the phono preamp and am doing RIAA in software, but it will work with a phono preamp as well. Pure Vinyl is available as a Demo, so you can give it a try before deciding if it is for you.

http://www.channld.com/purevinyl/


When I did various tests trying different sample rates, I found that for me the sweet spot was 24/96, which on my hardware actually sounded a little better than 24/192, probably in part since there is less math going on for my iMac to handle.  Also at 24/96 I can send SPDIF out of the Focusrite, so I can compare it's internal DAC's to my outboard DAC's.

I think the pro gear can give incredible bang for the buck, but it can be pretty non-intuitive to get everything up and running. As far as sterile sound, I don't really notice it - but I'm going into a tube integrated for amplification, and that might be adding the warmth back in.


As far as where I would start on improving your chain -  I would try eliminating the Phono Pre first using the Apogee as the Phono Pre, and PV to do the RIAA. If you like it, you can sell the Phono Pre and use that money for further upgrades.

Good luck.

Jim C

[chrisby]

I've been very happy with my $300 Focusrite AD/DA, although I'm sure it doesn't deliver Metric Halo level performance, it also was less then 10% of the cost.

I'd second using Pure Vinyl as digitizing software (plus for enhanced iTunes playback) - I've eliminated the phono preamp and am doing RIAA in software, but it will work with a phono preamp as well. Pure Vinyl is available as a Demo, so you can give it a try before deciding if it is for you.

http://www.channld.com/purevinyl/


When I did various tests trying different sample rates, I found that for me the sweet spot was 24/96, which on my hardware actually sounded a little better than 24/192, probably in part since there is less math going on for my iMac to handle.  Also at 24/96 I can send SPDIF out of the Focusrite, so I can compare it's internal DAC's to my outboard DAC's.

I think the pro gear can give incredible bang for the buck, but it can be pretty non-intuitive to get everything up and running. As far as sterile sound, I don't really notice it - but I'm going into a tube integrated for amplification, and that might be adding the warmth back in.


As far as where I would start on improving your chain -  I would try eliminating the Phono Pre first using the Apogee as the Phono Pre, and PV to do the RIAA. If you like it, you can sell the Phono Pre and use that money for further upgrades.

Good luck.

Jim C

Jim - I think you nailed most of the pertinent points for the average user.

A couple of relatively affordable / easy to use ADC/DAC units that I've tried are the Edirol UA-25 (USB) and FA66 (Firewire) buss powered digital audio interfaces. 

This class of multifunction devices, usually including mic preamps and more connectivity and functionality in a physically small package than the average guy might need for a home based computer music system.  They aren't the most intuitive plug 'n play to use and certainly lack the cosmetic panache or "audiophile approval" rating of units 5 or 10 times their cost, but they certainly work.  Neither was difficult at all to get midi control panel to recognize.

[Brandon B]

An inexpensive but wonderful sounding pro AD/DA is the Steinberg MR816X.  Punches way above its weight.  It is also multichannel, but less flexible.  It is only 24/96 max...but is also only $650 at Sweetwater, with a risk-free 30 day return policy.  I have one inhouse now and it continues to amaze for that price.

If one were looking for stereo only, how would you rate it against an Apogee Duet, if you've had a chance to have heard one?

[ted_b]

If one were looking for stereo only, how would you rate it against an Apogee Duet, if you've had a chance to have heard one?

Brandon,
I've never heard the Apogee Duet, but many on the pro forums, like gearlslutz, are buying the Steinberg to replace as high as the Prism Orpheus ($5k) DACs.  Go over there and do a search on Steinberg MR816x, you'll be amazed at the buzz it gets.   Now, with that being said, many think the Prism Orpheus is the sonic equal (plus or minus) of the Metric Halo LIO-8.  I've heard the LIO-8 in my home very critically; the Steinberg ain't no LIO-8.  But it's a great $600 option.  My gut feel is that most on gearslutz would rank it far above an Apogee Duet.

[dwk]

This is an interesting question - I'm looking hard at the MR816 as well (although for a PC setup, not mac). This is a multi-channel application so I'm pretty much constrained to the pro units.

At the high-end, there seems to be some consensus that the LIO-8/ULN-8 are pretty much the equal of anything out there. Some may choose a different 'flavor', but it comes down to preference rather than absolute quality.

Coming down from there though it gets muddy. If something like the Lynx Aurora is at the top of the next tier down in the pro world, how would that compare to something like the W4S Dac 2?  (2k vs 1.5k)

It seems like the Steinberg would be the choice in the "3rd tier" of pro interfaces, and at $700 is pretty cheap for 8 analog in/out at that quality level. However, my gut says that I'd be surprised if you couldn't get an audiophile oriented unit around the same price that was more convenient if not more satisfying. The W4S Dac1 for example, or a TP Buffalo setup (some diy obviously). 

I'm not sure you could actually 'go wrong' with any of these choices, but of course it's the burden of the audiophile to obsess about making the right choice. Good time for a shootout

[ted_b]

This is a multi-channel application so I'm pretty much constrained to the pro units.



It seems like the Steinberg would be the choice in the "3rd tier" of pro interfaces, and at $700 is pretty cheap for 8 analog in/out at that quality level. However, my gut says that I'd be surprised if you couldn't get an audiophile oriented unit around the same price that was more convenient if not more satisfying. The W4S Dac1 for example, or a TP Buffalo setup (some diy obviously). 

I'm confused...the W4S is not a multichannel DAC.  These are apples and oranges you are comparing, unless stereo is your goal.

Up until a week ago I had the Steinberg (still do) and the W4S DAC1 in the same setup, right next to each other.  The W4S is clearly the better 24/96 stereo DAC IMO, especially if you have USB rather than firewire.  The DAC1 will go to 24/192, but only via AES/EBU or S/PDIF.   Thw Wyred is much more detailed, and it's only real weakness is its analytical nature...needs to be coupled with a warmer system.

[Brandon B]

Thanks Ted.  That gives me the context I was looking for.

[Brandon B]

FYI the Steinberg is now $699 on Sweetwater, but there is a downloadable $100 rebate form on Steinberg's site good through purchases on December 31.

[ted_b]

FYI the Steinberg is now $699 on Sweetwater, but there is a downloadable $100 rebate form on Steinberg's site good through purchases on December 31.

Yeah, I was just netting it to $600