AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: Streamer on 22 Jan 2023, 03:31 am
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I read on USA Audiomart that the Mini GaN 5 was a hot topic in the Spatial Audio Circle of this site. That’s why I’m here. To read more and share.
Thanks
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Welcome to AC!
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:D got one. For the $$ that's a great little 5 pound amp. My D-48's sing pretty dam sweet. :D
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I have one in a secondary system and there's some posts here about it - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=178455.msg1877185#msg1877185
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Ive just received my Mini gan 5 Mono Blocks.
Very impressed so far.
Paired with the M4's, schit's Freya + and anti cables.
Will let it burn in for sometime before i make radical statements. But definitely worth a listen too. The sound comes across as effortless at this point.
As always in most cases, the better the room, the better the gear, the more compatible the better the sound. HEHEHEEHEE yeah i know, for every rule there is an exception.
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Streamer - if you read the "Sapphire M3 - Gallium Nitride Amps" thread you'll see more than you ever cared to about the MiniGan 5's and other gallium nitride amps. Lovers and detractors. Mostly positive reviews. For myself, after 4 months of use of MiniGan 5 monos, the honeymoon continues. My lonely tube gear sits in the dining room with sad faces. It's just uncanny how the MiniGan's (with a Freya +), the least expensive system I've owned in decades, have captured my listening attention.
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Sapphire M3 trying to get used to this site as it’s a bit different from what I’m used to.
Thanks for the welcome.
I have a Class D Audio SD250 power amp.
As for the Mini GaN 5 .. my first one just wasn’t right. It would clip on powerful passages and I was quite surprised. It ran hot too unlike the SD250. One day it sparked and the left channel died. I got a replacement. It fizzled out and died. What are the chances I had such bad luck.
I find the GaN has more depth and 3D qualities over the SD250.
Here’s something I really don’t understand.
When the c-j PV3 was connected to the Adcom I could tell I was listening to Tubes, but with either of the Class D amps I couldn’t differentiate between tubes and solid state pre-amps.
Anyone else notice something like that?
Sapphire M3 Thanks for the tip.
Thanks,
Streamer
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Welcome to AC!
Thank you.
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Streamer - if you read the "Sapphire M3 - Gallium Nitride Amps" thread you'll see more than you ever cared to about the MiniGan 5's and other gallium nitride amps. Lovers and detractors. Mostly positive reviews.
May I ask you for the link to Sapphire M3?
TIA
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Found it!
Sorry to bother you.
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Here’s something I really don’t understand.
When the c-j PV3 was connected to the Adcom I could tell I was listening to Tubes, but with either of the Class D amps I couldn’t differentiate between tubes and solid state pre-amps.
Anyone else notice something like that?
Not an M3 owner - I have Zu speakers. And I haven't swapped from tubes to SS preamps, but I do have two different tube preamps with distinctive character. One is on the warmer end of the spectrum, and the other is on the faster/leaner end of the tube spectrum. I find the mini GAN 5 to be highly transparent as to the different character of each of those preamps, as well as different DACs and other system changes. But I also haven't had the reliability problems you're citing with your mini GAN amp. Not sure what's going on there.
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I find myself in complete agreement with Genjamon's observations. Absolute transparency to source. In fact, to the best of my aural recollection, greater transparency than any other amp I've used in 45 years... Further, I own 2 pair of MiniGan monoblocks (so 4 amps in all) and not a hiccup in over 4 months. They run cool and the amps remain dead silent on turn-on and operation. Clipping? Well, I don't know what speaks you're using Streamer or how loud you listen but I've not found any distortion even at occasional loud listening on M3's. FWIW.
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If an amp is going into protect mode, especially duplicate examples of the amp, then it is likely the electricity coming into the amp where issues lie.
I had a piece of equipment that would go into protection when I turned it on, and it turned out the polarity on my outlets was reversed. Nothing else I owned had ever complained, but the equipment that balked was from a very accomplished manufacturer who designed things to work with proper power. I got the wiring fixed, and everything sounded better.
Some equipment is designed to work with electricity that meets standards for polarity, grounding, voltage, etc. I find the better the equipment the more true that is. It's a good thing to have a proper protection circuit in place when the incoming power could cause damage.
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:D one can wonder if shipping might come into play. There is no shock isolation in the packaging with these little amps. A small tight fitting box is all you get ? Just a thought. :D
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Yeah I was pretty shocked by the lack of padding in the USPS flat rate box with my amp. Glad it survived the journey, but I could easily see shipping damage being a common occurrence.
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Cheap, Cheap, Cheap. This is what the value is for this amp. If interested go for it.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649943581-mini-gan-5-class-d-amplifier/
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Says the man who’s never heard it, but is constantly commenting about it…
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Thanks guys.
Speakers: Maggie’s MMG’s.
Never happened with my Accuphase P-300 or the Adcom GFA 5400.
Another Mini GaN 5 is on its way.
With the Accuphase and the conrad-johnson PV-3 the sound was so good I stopped shopping for gear. Anyways
I do use an API POWER WEDGE 116. I also use an Adcom ACE 515 power enhancer.
Also have to use s step down transformer (1000a) from 220v to 110v. That is connected to a UPS because of unannounced brown outs. I’m considering to stop using the UPS. The c-j was purchased in Japan and that’s 100v. What a pain.
The aforementioned step down transformer has 3 outputs. 100v, 110v and 220v on the front panel. The Adcom enhancer goes to 100v for thr c-j. All the rest go to 110v.
That’s it for now.
Ciao
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Says the man who’s never heard it, but is constantly commenting about it…
Well, I have heard 3 different class D amps. 7-20K range. PS Audio-Merrill's.
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So what!? I’ve heard 15-20 Class A or A/B SS amps in my system and those of friends, and dozens upon dozens of each at shows. Does that qualify me to talk about what your particular SS amps can and can’t do? Are good for or not?
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:D mr big, calm down man. Price and value are not the same. This little amp for the $$ is serious. I hope it works for a long time and only time will tell. It really sounds well past the price powering my D-48's. Some people ! :D
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Genjamon and 2BigEars make important points, do they not? Look at reviews of amps/speaks by the Late, Great Art Dudley, Herb Reichert, John Atkinson, etc., etc., and these folks almost always try the gear under review, again, typically amps or speaks, with various amps and speakers looking for synergy. Often various combinations prove more musical than others. Genjamon's point is, therefore, taken seriously by, and the regular practice of, professional reviewers. Also, I know from personal experience that any given amp/speaker combination may or may not be as musical. The MiniGans with M3's seem to possess that synergy I've been looking for for so long. Not as much synergy with the Merlins upstairs but still enough that my tube gear sits dormant bested by the MiniGans. So listening to one amp or another, without actually "tasting" the MiniGans does not constitute, and cannot be, a relevant statement concerning the MiniGans. Obsession over price may satisfy those who otherwise have difficulty discerning value.
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One of the things I've really enjoyed about this forum is how infrequently, practically never since I've been participating in it, it degenerates into ad hominem attacks or patronizing or sarcastic comments, so it's disappointing to see this discussion begin to deteriorate into squabbling. All it takes is one to say something bordering on the personally insulting to change the tenor of a conversation, and, potentially, the site generally. Even if you strongly disagree with another's comment, or feel a judgement is being passed without sufficient or credible supporting information, much more is gained by respectfully making your case than by being snide or sarcastic. One, you're much more likely to get a sensible response, possibly even a concession, and, two, it keeps the debate palatable for others on the site looking for information and not an argument. I'm not being Miss Manners here (though I could be worse), or trying to come to anyone's defense or take a position in this debate - I'm aware we're all adults and can fend for ourselves - but I do love coming here to read the varying viewpoints and decide for myself who's opinion in a given discussion I find worth attending to. The bickering is just that, bickering, not informative or entertaining. I know I sound like I'm scolding, which probably isn't much help either, but I'm just disappointed to see even a hint of the tone that's turned me off reading at least two other hifi forums, and I just hate to see it.
On a related side-note, I've got one of the Orchard Audio GaN amps that's been making the rounds coming my way in a couple of days. Right now I own a Don Sachs Valhalla integrated amp, which replaced my Classe SSP-800 pre-pro and CA-2300 amp, powering a pair of X5s. I'm really curious to see where I'll fall in this discussion.
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Plus 2 on the Orchard Audio owner
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jnscheyer - while I wholeheartedly agree that ad hominem attacks typically demonstrate an unwillingness and/or inability to counter another's position and are rarely designed to instigate thoughtful conversation, sometimes a harmless jab spices up the conversation a bit. A little controversy can be fun to follow. Further, the threads above do seem to expound a truism worth noting and taking to heart - one ought to be very careful about expressing an opinion on a subject about which one is wholly ignorant. I am utterly astonished at how often I hear opinions expressed and when I inquire about the factual basis for the opinion, well, nothing there. I think that's worth noting and pointing out. Otherwise how to keep a conversation honest? In any event, a little controversy keeps the fans watching. In truth, I don't suppose anybody here really means to insult another member but, rather, to make a fair point. That's all I've seen here. If you disagree I'm OK with that!
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Unfortunately, people often state their preferences as absolutes and then defend them as truths.
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Yes, the French like to say "vive les differences" meaning celebrate the differences. We could all benefit from accepting that others have and always will view things differently from us, what a boring world it would be if everyone agreed on everything. I've gotten pissed off a couple of times over the years here too, but this isn't politics, it's a hobby for crying out loud :lol: disagree tactfully and maintain a sense of humor and all will go well. End of speech.
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Yes, the French like to say "vive les differences" meaning celebrate the differences. We could all benefit from accepting that others have and always will view things differently from us, what a boring world it would be if everyone agreed on everything. I've gotten pissed off a couple of times over the years here too, but this isn't politics, it's a hobby for crying out loud :lol: disagree tactfully and maintain a sense of humor and all will go well. End of speech.
Well said. That's why I just linked another thread about the amplifier. There are varying opinions on the amplifier within the thread. I'm here to absorb information and give whatever information is relevant to a question posed. An adult can look at what is said about the amplifier and reach their own conclusions. I tend to stay away from various subjects to avoid some of the stuff which goes on. In avoiding these things that doesn't mean I agree or disagree with anything. I've been in the hobby for 45+ years (since I was 5 years old of course :green:) and have had separates for about 43 of those years. Whatever anyone wants to do or believe is fine with me. The internet has positive and negatives. It allows lots of information at our fingertips but also leaves room for lots of misinformation. I enjoy my systems and everyone is entitled to enjoy theirs based on their own preference and beliefs.
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Correct we all have to our ear which sounds right for us/me. I have zip-against-class D amps if you like them that is what is important, but when one says I've never heard them; I have over the many years. Always staying open-minded because I love to have an amp at my age that does not weigh 100 lbs plus. But they all have a common sound which is not my cup of tea, but that means others cannot enjoy them, by no means have I said that. Many absolutely love the Benchmark AHB2 amp, I don't does that mean they cannot, no of course not, many owners say it is the most transparent amp they have ever used, and class D amps are included in that assessment, but lovers of them say they are. So again each ear is drawn to a sound they enjoy.
So if you own them and enjoy them that is great and because I feel that I don't enjoy them as much should get any feathers into an uproar.
I think also this site/group here was for Spatial Audio speakers, with so much feedback on the Gain amps they should be in an amplifier discussion area where others might weigh in more and be helpful in their feedback. I grew up on tube gear which is my core, I no longer use tube gear but SS sounds great, do I miss tubes at times, I do, do I miss the cost nowadays of retubing amps and preamps, nope. So SS. for me but you would never hear me say is that much better, they are both different, and some tube gear today is voiced to sound more like SS than tube gear.
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From what my musician friends tell me, you can have 3 violinists on a stage with each playing the same brand of violin and the same tune and they will sound different from each other.
Which one is correct?
Answer…. The one you prefer.
It’s ok if I prefer class d and you prefer class a… what is interesting is what are we each hearing or not hearing that relates to our preferences.
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Cheap, Cheap, Cheap. This is what the value is for this amp. If interested go for it.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649943581-mini-gan-5-class-d-amplifier/
I read that to say that the only value of the amp is it’s cheapness. Not its sound quality, size, or other attributes. This is more than a statement that you personally don’t like the sound, but that sound quality simply is not a virtue of the amp period. You may have heard other class D amps, and one of them was a high priced GAN amp by Merrill, but all class D amps don’t sound the same, just like all class A or A/B SS amps don’t sound the same, just like there’s a wide variety of sonics to be found with tube amps, even using the same tube complements. Accordingly, I (respectfully now, for those concerned about decorum) submit that anyone who has not heard the amp cannot credibly speak to its virtues in terms of sound quality.
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Having owned 20 or so amps over 35-plus years I've heard plenty of amps, by major manufacturers of high-end audio. Some I liked more than others and those that were not my cup of tea are still in business and doing well, so I am the only one who won't make or break a company that is for sure because I did not buy it nor keep it, reviewers have that power I am just in the hobby for enjoyment.
My favorite speaker for pure reproduction is Quads, but I traded that off for a speaker I could also enjoy and be able to rock out or push with no fear of damaging the speaker, and for change's sake, though most of the time I don't play the M3 any louder than I did the Quads ESL 63's. Clayton was great to speak with and was upfront about my gains and losses going from Quads. Great guy making a solid speaker that sounds good.
So I fully understand you have to compromise at times. So far, I have not been able to do that with the Class D I have heard. But perhaps one day.
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I agree with the idea of being decent.
What is not decent is belittling a product any individual person has not heard in person and feeling superior because we keep other gear.
From time to time, we do well to do a reality check. Someone's stone is another man's Diamond.
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jnscheyer - while I wholeheartedly agree that ad hominem attacks typically demonstrate an unwillingness and/or inability to counter another's position and are rarely designed to instigate thoughtful conversation, sometimes a harmless jab spices up the conversation a bit. A little controversy can be fun to follow. Further, the threads above do seem to expound a truism worth noting and taking to heart - one ought to be very careful about expressing an opinion on a subject about which one is wholly ignorant. I am utterly astonished at how often I hear opinions expressed and when I inquire about the factual basis for the opinion, well, nothing there. I think that's worth noting and pointing out. Otherwise how to keep a conversation honest? In any event, a little controversy keeps the fans watching. In truth, I don't suppose anybody here really means to insult another member but, rather, to make a fair point. That's all I've seen here. If you disagree I'm OK with that!
Hi, Catluck,
I'm completely sympathetic to your astonishment at how often some, many, people express with great confidence opinions on which they know virtually nothing. It is both astonishing and, sadly, so endemic to, well, everything, that it shouldn't be astonishing at all, or at least not surprising. I'm also sympathetic to feeling goaded into snarkiness by even the perception of such an unfounded opinion being expressed. My dismay was at seeing even the infant stages of the personal squabbling that permeates so many other hifi forums (so many other forums generally, but save that for, with any luck, never). I suspect the folks on this forum, however goaded they might feel, would abandon an argument as a bad job before it got completely out of hand and polluted the forum entirely. I think there are ways of keeping the conversation honest without throwing jabs of any kind. Coincidentally, I'm in the business of throwing literal jabs, and they are never harmless, always have a purpose, and that purpose is to wound. But I get that people feel differently about these things, and can readily see how someone could feel that another's perhaps overbearing or dismissive comment warrants a rebuke. I guess it's a matter of how one delivers that rebuke, or how it's received, that determines whether or not things will devolve into cattiness or stay on point. Also, in this case, to be fair, it isn't accurate to say the poster is wholly ignorant about the subject. He may not have experience of this particular amp, but, taking him at his word, he has extensive experience with hifi gear generally, some with this topology, and enough to speak generally to the typical relation of cost to quality. No doubt, sometimes expensive is not good and, conversely, inexpensive can be surprisingly good, and clearly some feel this is one of those times. But it is not the norm. Typically, allowing for diminishing returns as you go up, to bring in another truism, you get what you pay for. So saying he's wholly ignorant isn't true. Could he have expressed himself better? I think so. But pointing out a flaw in an argument and proposing a better one is different than simply jabbing someone, albeit more time consuming and perhaps less gratifying. I don't mean to make an aria about this - I think you're right, that it's unlikely anyone on here means to straight-up insult anyone else - but, to me, the controversy you speak of, is repellent, not entertaining or instructive, both of which are what I come here for. I'm all for debate, even spirited, passionate debate. I just like it to be about the object or subject in question, and not about the person making the argument. But I'm fully cognizant that I'm only one reader and contributor among very many. I offer my own take with the customary grain of salt. In any case, I appreciate your civil reply. I suspect we're much more in agreement than disagreement. Until next time.
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If anyone is interested in my modded MiniGan I am selling it. Will post an ad here on AC soon.
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Jn- here's, perhaps, the major difference in our positions: I accord virtually no weight or deference to someone expressing an opinion about a matter concerning which they're largely, if not wholly, ignorant. But, if you haven't heard a piece of kit, you're not "largely" but, rather, "wholly," ignorant IMO about the piece and its sonic merit. For instance, if I asked a person, "well, what did that piece sound like to you?" They would/could have no credible, i.e., informed, response if they hadn't actually heard the piece. Not some other gear, not something kinda' like it..., but the gear in question. And, to the greater point, if I hadn't actually experienced a piece of gear I certainly wouldn't discount, diminish, or otherwise disparage the gear even if only implicitly or circumspectly. No big deal though.
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They would/could have no credible, i.e., informed, response if they hadn't actually heard the piece.
Exactly, that's why on the first page I linked the thread from my review of it and I noted in the review "So I'm going to give my take about the mini-GaN amp from actually listening to it." In any profession or hobby, there are people who hold themselves out as experts but are not. While we all may have opinions about ourselves on certain subjects that have bias merely due to the fact we see ourselves differently than others do, it is never a good position that something isn't good based on hearsay. Hearsay is something that is not considered an absolute fact in a court of law or what someone believes or relies on from a source of inadequate information where something is not even listened to. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
The title to the thread where I posted my review was "Has anyone heard a Class D Audio "Mini Gan 5" amp?" So the original poster was looking read about opinions from people who heard the amp and looking for positive or negative feedback from actual hands on experience. I would never post a response if a question was asked 'has anyone ever measured the mini-Gan amp to see if it meets their published specifications' as I have nothing to offer (and that's overlooking the fact that the place cited had a problem getting readings from the amp and then magically did and I noted in my review about the case being magnetic and in another thread noted that property can cause anomalies with an oscillascope, which are basics). If I have nothing to offer based on the question posted, regardless of my opinion, I don't comment. I wouldn't want to turn anyone into me (a semi-crazy audiophile and I have friends who are not audiophiles and when I help them it is according to their preferences and budget - not mine). There appears that there are many people who just feel the need to impose their preferences. Some people may like tubes, solid state, single driver speakers, etc., and that's OK. Everyone is entitled to their preferences.
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Jn- here's, perhaps, the major difference in our positions: I accord virtually no weight or deference to someone expressing an opinion about a matter concerning which they're largely, if not wholly, ignorant. But, if you haven't heard a piece of kit, you're not "largely" but, rather, "wholly," ignorant IMO about the piece and its sonic merit.
Just because someone has heard a component doesn't put them in a position to disregard comments from those who haven't heard it. There are many other factors to consider beyond a few people's perceptions of a component's sonic merits such as price, build quality, alternatives (other similar components in the price range), customer service, parts availability, brand, designer, appearance, size, weight, features, specs, manufacturer's location, measurements, professional vs. customer reviews, seller's reputation, spousal acceptance, associated costs (i.e., cables), etc.
For instance, parts quality can tell you a lot about how a component will sound. Cheap parts = cheap sound ---> there's no way around it. What differentiates "high-end audio" from enthusiast gear is parts quality (assuming both are designed well), so that's a worthy discussion with any piece of gear. Anyone knowledgeable on parts quality should be encouraged to add their perspective, even if they haven't heard the component. In fact, the level of build quality can dissuade someone from wanting to hear or demo a component and there's nothing wrong with discussing that, too.
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Just in my experience in working with the Mini GaN 5, I found it to do well with some speakers and not so much with other speakers. Many variables.
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Early B - the quote you reply to specifically notes its concern with and about "sonic merit." PERIOD. I don't care about any of the considerations you mention unless and until I find sonic merit. Then, and only then, do I consider other factors. I don't buy gear because I like it's looks or construction quality or whatever... What is so difficult about understanding that a person has no useful opinion about a piece of gear he/she hasn't heard when "sonic merit" is the subject matter of the conversation?
You're entitled to your opinion that "cheap parts = cheap sound" whatever "cheap sound" is. But, at a minimum, unless/until you LISTEN to gear, you have NO USEFUL OPINION on the gear's sonic merit, i.e., sound quality, regardless of its price, build quality, alternatives, etc. Particularly is this true when confronting a new technology.
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On the subject of sound and amps, speakers, etc. This evening for the fun of it I installed my old ac wall plates that came with my house when it was built. I had them out for several years and had replaced them not for sound but for looks. I took those out and when I turned my system I played one track and it took me less than 1 minute to say enough, my wife yelled up turn it off or turn it down what did you do, it sounds like crap. I told her I put the old wall plates back on, and she said your nuts, I said hold on and reinserted the better-looking wall plates, she yelled up wow that is really good, just the wall plates, I said yep, she said don't tell anyone they will say you gone nuts with your hobby.
When I worked for sony our ES gear back then all had copper bottoms and shells surrounding the parts etc. To keep RF and EMI out from screwing with the circuits. Today we have that stuff in our homes, my new 5G router cause my garage opener to not work at times due to inference, and my PC speakers had noise coming from them and I had to replace them with shielded ones. That is how much noise the new wifi router was creating for electronics. Even worse than back then.
How bad did my system sound? If I walked into a system that sounded like like mine did with the plastic and nylon plates I would have said this system is really bright, forward, grainy, etc. Just a mishmash of sound. I mean just bad. My M3's sounded nothing like they did, I mean nothing like they did not even close. I would have said to get rid of these speakers they suck. I know some have said they can sound bright, if so this may be the reason. From the top down to the bass really improves.
I know power cords can make an impact on amps big time, even front and gear I keep large gauge power cords. But going back to the old white wall plates really shocked me even with my good power cords the system sucked.
So if you want a cheap improvement no matter the speaker or gear what you plug into matters I use Hubble for $50.00 professional ac outlets the orange ones but the wall plate more than matters also. I will link them if you like to give them a try.
1st ones our what I purchased and later I found pure copper ones that were even better.
https://www.amazon.com/Brainerd-64776-Beaded-Single-Brushed/dp/B00368CBN2/ref=sr_1_49?keywords=beaded%2Bac%2Bwall%2Bplates%2Bcopper&qid=1674866751&sr=8-49&th=1
Pure copper:
https://www.amazon.com/Monarch-Copper-Hammered-Duplex-Switch/dp/B07848TYC3/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=beaded%2Bac%2Bwall%2Bplates%2Bcopper&qid=1674867815&sr=8-8&th=1
Outlets:
https://www.amazon.com/HUBBELL-IG5362-Straight-Isolated-Receptacle/dp/B000TKFI12/ref=sr_1_38?crid=3W2MKTZCYEL9S&keywords=hubbell+professional+ac+outlets&qid=1674868105&sprefix=hubble+professional+ac+outlets%2Caps%2C66&sr=8-38&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc
https://www.amazon.com/Hubbell-Wiring-Systems-SpikeShield-Receptacle/dp/B000LEDFRU/ref=d_pd_day0_vft_none_sccl_3_3/139-9497462-0203460?pd_rd_w=h1Lhf&content-id=amzn1.sym.8ca997d7-1ea0-4c8f-9e14-a6d756b83e30&pf_rd_p=8ca997d7-1ea0-4c8f-9e14-a6d756b83e30&pf_rd_r=H6XD95ZZ2MRBXFGZVTR1&pd_rd_wg=J84N1&pd_rd_r=6d2c8767-980a-4d9c-8415-77760e00eae0&pd_rd_i=B000LEDFRU&psc=1
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You're entitled to your opinion that "cheap parts = cheap sound" whatever "cheap sound" is. But, at a minimum, unless/until you LISTEN to gear, you have NO USEFUL OPINION on the gear's sonic merit, i.e., sound quality, regardless of its price, build quality, alternatives, etc.
Let me give you an example of an alternative perspective to your assertion: nearly all components have shortcomings or concessions and are built to a certain price point, so through experience, it's feasible to predict the "sonic merits" of a device without ever hearing it. I don't need to demo a specific cheaply made tube amp to know that it sounds like a cheap tube amp.
Second, if you've heard a component and described what you've heard, I don't know your capacity to discern the nuances of what you're hearing. I also don't what "bright" or "neutral" means to you, so your description of a component doesn't convey much useful information. And, of course, components are system-dependent, so you're literally describing how a system sounds, not an individual component.
When determining how something sounds, my first consideration is examining build quality. I don't need to hear it. In fact, it's 100% impractical for anyone to hear every component they're considering for purchase, so, by necessity, one must rely on other factors.
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Second, if you've heard a component and described what you've heard, I don't know your capacity to discern the nuances of what you're hearing. I also don't what "bright" or "neutral" means to you, so your description of a component doesn't convey much useful information. And, of course, components are system-dependent, so you're literally describing how a system sounds, not an individual component.
This is why reviews become much more meaningful when you have a way to triangulate on what the reviewer is saying...such as you've heard other things they've reviewed and agreed...or they describe interactions with other pieces of related equipment that you may own and have experienced the same.
I view the reviews of others as relating to their experiences, their preferences and their choice of words...not as absolutes for me to use as a truth that I can rely upon but interesting nonetheless and possibly helpful if dozens of other people report the same experience.
And, as we all know, nothing beats the 30-60 days home trial....especially because pieces of gear interact differently with each other and those interactions are very hard to predict.
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Early B - it appears that we're destined to disagree with each other. FUN!!! First, note that I've never suggested that anyone should rely on MY assessment of gear. I've always ONLY suggested that assessment of sound quality should be YOURS and YOURS alone. So the comments re: what I think is "bright" or whatever are simply irrelevant. They address issues I've never raised.
Second, had I adopted your old school credo that price somehow reveals sound quality I never would have tried my George Wright 2A3 monoblocks (the most amazing 2A3 amps I've ever heard), or the Hartung 125 OTL's (crazy good sounding 50 watt Class A mono's) or C.C. Poon's Monarchy SM-70 Pros (another amazingly lifelike sounding amp albeit subject to failure due to excessive heat) or other amps I've tried over nearly 45 years in this glorious hobby. And, of course, the MiniGan 5's which, as my first post noted, I didn't want to like. Doing so would force me to reject the shibboleths I've lived by for 45 years, i.e., cheaper gear can't sound GREAT.
Likewise, if one has gained familiarity with reviewers and their predilections, you can get a sense of a product. I found Art Dudley's, Herb Reichert's, and other's reviews useful. Not the last word, but useful. I have never purchased a piece based solely on price, specs, or any other factor except, where possible, sound quality. And, yes, we're hearing a system so that applies across the board to any purchase. My reporting was on the MiniGan with M3's and M3's alone, thus containing, I think, the most important exogenous variables.
In any event, now that I've actually LISTENED to the MiniGans, over 4 months, and after owning substantial tube gear for over 25 years, I find the MiniGans exceptional and, again, I DIDN'T WANT TO. So the cheap price = cheap sound simply doesn't hold for me and apparently others who have actually LISTENED to this product. It's a credo you may hold onto but I find it no longer useful (if it ever was) particularly with gallium nitride products.
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This is why reviews become much more meaningful when you have a way to triangulate what the reviewer is saying...such as you've heard other things they've reviewed and agreed upon...or they describe interactions with other pieces of related equipment that you may own and have experienced the same.
I view the reviews of others as relating to their experiences, their preferences and their choice of words...not as absolutes for me to use as a truth that I can rely upon but interesting nonetheless and possibly helpful if dozens of other people report the same experience.
And, as we all know, nothing beats the 30-60 days home trial....especially because pieces of gear interact differently with each other and those interactions are very hard to predict.
Well said. This is why we can only state what we hear and our perceptions of that sound or piece of gear in our systems and rooms' acoustics. Mixing and matching gear can be a good thing but one that is more complicated, where buying matching pieces of gear in the same matching price range from a manufacturer almost assure you getting 100% of what that designer had in mind for the sound of their gear. When we had 2-3 audio stores in an area back in the golden era of hi-fi, you could stop by and take a piece home and try it, so mixing and matching was much easier to do, you knew if it work or not, now with so few audio stores in communities we in many cases have to buy blindly for hearing. Plus the used market on gear is huge nowadays. With more and more companies now focusing on the upper 10% of earners on a lot of gear sold, it becoming even harder to get into this hobby even if you make a good wage to have that much deposable income to spend on a hobby when you have a family to take care of schooling for your kids.
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Mine's up for sale, here - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=184737.msg1938426#new
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Cheap can be great. The LSA Warp-1 surprised the shit out of me. Still scratching my head. My only issue is where some are made.
charles
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From Neil Grader's review of the PS Audio S300 Class D amp, which is only $1700.
"A final word on Class D, if I may. Digital artifacts and colorations (the early rap was flat mids, brittle, snappish treble, deep but stiffly controlled bass) of an earlier era have been largely expunged from today’s top crop of Class D amps. Candidly, I don’t even know anymore what it means to describe a contemporary amp’s sonic signature as “Class D.” Yet, many of us still have a negative knee-jerk reaction to the “D” word. It’s rather like acknowledging a superb recording on vinyl, and then finding out the transfer wasn’t pure AAA and deciding it wasn’t up to snuff, after all. This is a long-winded way of saying, listen first before you judge. The era of apologizing for Class D is over."
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I know power cords can make an impact on amps big time, even front and gear I keep large gauge power cords. But going back to the old white wall plates really shocked me even with my good power cords the system sucked.
Yikes.
I own the M3 Sapphires and a pair of monoblock Mini GaN 5s that replaced my Pass Labs XA25, and I was quite skeptical about this tweak.
I use an AudioQuest Niagara 3000 power conditioner, so I figured that a difference in electromagnetic interference at the wall plate would not matter audibly.
In addition, a pure copper wall plate, if it sees an electrical field, will induce a magnetic field. So pure copper could just exchange one type of interference for another, perhaps.
But for $10 and next day delivery, it seemed like minimal risk. The plate arrived yesterday, and I installed it last night. I gave the Holo May and Niagara time to settle in overnight and this morning put on a playlist of familiar test/demo tracks. I wasn't expecting to hear any difference, really.
Boy, was I wrong. For whatever reason, this copper plate makes readily apparent improvements. The timbre and clarity of hi-hat cymbals was the first thing that I noticed. Then I noticed that natural timbre in the midrange was improved. Then I noticed that I didn't mind turning the volume up on some tracks that I usually lowered the volume on. Overall, it seems as if the copper has cleaned up tizz or grit or confusion in the high frequencies that was degrading the sound. Bizarre. But for $10 it's the good kind of bizarre.
I assume this isn't specific to M3 Sapphires and Mini GaN 5s, but the combination of the speed and resolution of amps and speakers certainly makes the improvement obvious.
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Mr. Big,
Your mission should you choose to accept it ( :wink:) is to compare the pure copper wall plate to the aluminum model. Aluminum is also a good conductor and possibly a shield as well. Electronics are all in aluminum cases and some have internal aluminum barriers.
I prefer the white aesthetically so I need to know. :lol: And they are cheaper. I would need three. Bummer is I really need wall plates with supports to hold heavy PCs. The less expensive 3D printed ones have a reputation for breaking.
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Jn- here's, perhaps, the major difference in our positions: I accord virtually no weight or deference to someone expressing an opinion about a matter concerning which they're largely, if not wholly, ignorant. But, if you haven't heard a piece of kit, you're not "largely" but, rather, "wholly," ignorant IMO about the piece and its sonic merit. For instance, if I asked a person, "well, what did that piece sound like to you?" They would/could have no credible, i.e., informed, response if they hadn't actually heard the piece. Not some other gear, not something kinda' like it..., but the gear in question. And, to the greater point, if I hadn't actually experienced a piece of gear I certainly wouldn't discount, diminish, or otherwise disparage the gear even if only implicitly or circumspectly. No big deal though.
Hi again, Catluck,
In absolute terms, I can't dispute your argument, nor would I want to, that, ultimately, one must experience a piece of kit before one can be sure of one's opinion of it. That said, one can make educated guesses based on general experience that more often than not turn out to be accurate. I'll offer an analogy. I'm a boxing coach. I competed for many years and have trained fighters now for nearly 30 years. If someone were to come to me and tell me they had a really talented welterweight, that he or she had speed, power, great defensive skills, and a high boxing IQ (much as boxing IQ may seem an oxymoron), that the only drawback was that he was 5'2", I would be justifiably skeptical, as your average successful welterweight goes anywhere from 5'9" to 6'. Not only would I be justifiably skeptical, I would almost invariably be right, that, no matter what the skill level, even if he was now beating low-level opposition, as soon as he moved up in opposition he would get destroyed, as the height difference would simply be too much of a disadvantage to overcome. Of course, I'm aware that an analogy is only an illustration and not a proof, and that no analogy is truly apple to apples; electronics and the human body are not the same thing, and the possibilities of each are different. My point, belabored at this point, is that one can often make intelligent and even accurate guesses based on experience using particular criteria. That said, as I said earlier, I grant your ultimate point, that, while one may sight unseen make an accurate prediction as to the quality or success of something, as there are always exceptions, one can finally draw no absolute conclusion without seeing the fighter, hearing the amp, in person.
On another note, going back to my original objection to the appearance of animus in these discussions, the absence of it has allowed a lively and interesting discussion to go forward and for people to make clearer their positions, without necessarily intending to change the minds of others but to present thoughts and experiences for consideration. It is what I really enjoy about this particular forum. So, thanks for that.
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jn - I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I really do. Further, I get your analogy because I studied the martial arts for almost 10 years. Some minutes ago.... But even assuming that the posts advocating for assessment, evaluation, and purchase, based upon price, manufacturer, specs, whatever, when auditioning isn't possible, gives no indication whatsoever of the level of buyer satisfaction when purchasing in that fashion. As, or more, important, I'm willing to wager that anyone who does purchase a component unheard, and despite any other parameter(s) known, exercises heroic pre-purchase efforts to locate information on how the kit sounds. If such a purchase is not attended by those efforts then I'm willing to argue that the purchaser values sound quality less than the other "known" parameters impelling the buy.
Now, if you agree, then we have to ask, why? Why would a "blind" purchaser undertake such pre-purchase efforts to discover the sound quality? Why? Because sound quality is the primary reason we buy and keep our gear. Or, would anyone argue that audiophiles keep their gear because, although they are bored/uninterested/dismayed with the sound quality they are enamored with the specs, construction, and aesthetics? I'm not speaking to those people.
For us old guys, you may remember a luminary in audio, Harvey Rosenberg (now long passed sadly) who went by the nom de plume Dr. Gizmo. He was, for decades, a fixture in the N.Y. City audiophile society and a brilliant amp designer. He used to write a column in Dudley's rag, "Listener." Full of wisdom: every line. Gizmo had rules re: audio. One that has stayed with me for decades and never led me astray, went like this:
"What's the most important aspect of any amplifier? Tone
What's the second most important aspect of any amplifier? Tone
What's the third most important aspect....? Tone"
I 100% agree with Gizmo. And, you CANNOT assess tone without listening. I don't give a damn what else one "knows" about the gear. One last, and the most important, thing: It is a pleasure "speaking" with you and all the others on this thread. I treasure our conversation. Especially those raising counter-arguments. Don't want a world full of me. Fuck that!
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Love it: re: Tone!
That's what separates this Class D Gan from others including VTV and Orchard Audio as well: this amp just does tone so much better than the others in my system and with my ears. YMMV.
I did just buy Atmasphere Class D Monos and am awaiting their delivery, and I'd be surprised if these Class D giant killers will outdo the Atmasphere, but I'm open to that possibility.
More details to follow in a few weeks....
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Yikes.
I own the M3 Sapphires and a pair of monoblock Mini GaN 5s that replaced my Pass Labs XA25, and I was quite skeptical about this tweak.
I use an AudioQuest Niagara 3000 power conditioner, so I figured that a difference in electromagnetic interference at the wall plate would not matter audibly.
In addition, a pure copper wall plate, if it sees an electrical field, will induce a magnetic field. So pure copper could just exchange one type of interference for another, perhaps.
But for $10 and next day delivery, it seemed like minimal risk. The plate arrived yesterday, and I installed it last night. I gave the Holo May and Niagara time to settle in overnight and this morning put on a playlist of familiar test/demo tracks. I wasn't expecting to hear any difference, really.
Boy, was I wrong. For whatever reason, this copper plate makes readily apparent improvements. The timbre and clarity of hi-hat cymbals was the first thing that I noticed. Then I noticed that natural timbre in the midrange was improved. Then I noticed that I didn't mind turning the volume up on some tracks that I usually lowered the volume on. Overall, it seems as if the copper has cleaned up tizz or grit or confusion in the high frequencies that was degrading the sound. Bizarre. But for $10 it's the good kind of bizarre.
I assume this isn't specific to M3 Sapphires and Mini GaN 5s, but the combination of the speed and resolution of amps and speakers certainly makes the improvement obvious.
You hurt what I heard and as you play more music and play some you have not played in a while you will be shocked at the improvements, Copper is great at blocking noise in coming and outgoing. I used to use the copper pipe rings and slipped them over the male plugs and you heard the improvement even then, but it looked like crap, the copper plates look good and do what I expected them to do so for $10.00 or pay for an audiophile plate for $150.00 I say $10.00 is quite the bargain for the given results, add the copper plates on all ac outlets in your room where your gear is and sit back and enjoy even if you use a power conditioner they only make that even better.
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Mr. Big,
Your mission should you choose to accept it ( :wink:) is to compare the pure copper wall plate to the aluminum model. Aluminum is also a good conductor and possibly a shield as well. Electronics are all in aluminum cases and some have internal aluminum barriers.
I prefer the white aesthetically so I need to know. :lol: And they are cheaper. I would need three. Bummer is I really need wall plates with supports to hold heavy PCs. The less expensive 3D printed ones have a reputation for breaking.
Buy the outlets I put links to, they hold power cords like a vice, and the plate has zip to do with that. If they can hold the PS Audio original Statement power cords they can hold anything, those were made from solid copper, and if you had to work with them you better buy them over 1.5 meters or more, the one-meter was impossible to twist or turn. These outlets hold them fine. The copper ones work so well that I have no desire to try silver aluminlum ones. They would not match my decor, but try them anything should be better than the plastic ones or nylon ones, unlistenable to me now. Yuck! Smile.The copper ones are solid.
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Well for about ten bucks, I’m in for the pure copper wallplate. The outlet is situated directly behind my system rack, less than a foot away, so why not give this a try. I’m currently using a white steel plate.
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Not being argumentative here… what is the rationale for a wall plate making an audible difference? It is surrounding the receptacle not covering it or the walls that the romex is routed through. That said conventional wisdom is that the wall plate is purely decorative.
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Not being argumentative here… what is the rationale for a wall plate making an audible difference? It is surrounding the receptacle not covering it or the walls that the romex is routed through. That said conventional wisdom is that the wall plate is purely decorative.
I thought so, so try it. You might be pleasantly happy. It's blocking in and outgoing noise in the digital world we live in and not to mention the RF/EMI issues of years past. It is nuts but he really lowered the noise and improved detail, and bass dynamics and detail. Per my 1st post, I took them off after a long time of thinking we will see, took 1 minute to hear the crap the music turned into and my wife yelled what are you doing, turn down or turn it off that is horrible, bright, and edgy. Copper is great at blocking noise which is why we used it on our gear in our Sony ES line. To keep outside interference and noise out of the gear and its circuits and ruin the sound quality. Today is even worse with routers wifi etc.
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Ordered 2 plates for my dedicated circuits and will report back. Skeptical but wont be the worst $20 that I have ever spent :lol:
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Ordered 2 plates for my dedicated circuits and will report back. Skeptical but won't be the worst $20 that I have ever spent :lol:
For us audiophiles, $20.00 is chump change. I think you will be surprised. I am not nuts..smile! I put them in for looks and got rid of the white plastic/nylon ones. The ac outlets I listed are really good, have a strong grip, and having owned several "audiophile" label ones these are as good or better than any of them at 3-4 times the cost.
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Not being argumentative here… what is the rationale for a wall plate making an audible difference? It is surrounding the receptacle not covering it or the walls that the romex is routed through. That said conventional wisdom is that the wall plate is purely decorative.
The cover plate completes the isolation of the outlet. The outlet sits in a galvanized box and the copper cover is grounded to that.
charles
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Unless it’s a plastic outlet box. So maybe not as helpful in that context? I don’t know how many homes have metal boxes - I don’t think I’ve ever lived in one that did. At least my last five homes didn’t have them for wall outlets, with a range of dates of construction from 1920’s through late 1980’s.
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Not metal gang boxes. Brand new circuits installed 2 weeks ago.
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For us audiophiles, $20.00 is chump change. I think you will be surprised. I am not nuts..smile! I put them in for looks and got rid of the white plastic/nylon ones. The ac outlets I listed are really good, have a strong grip, and having owned several "audiophile" label ones these are as good or better than any of them at 3-4 times the cost.
Please report your results.
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Please report your results.
I wrote about the results in my 1st post. Based on cheap plastic/nylon pure copper or even antique copper one noise floor is easily heard as being lower, the bass impact was vastly improved and deeper, midrange detail better, and highs more detailed yet smoother with a greater focus and imaging. All due to like anytime you reduce noise. I have had them on for a few years almost and in fact, only tried the white cheap ones the other day just to see what I would hear, it took less than a song to know boy they really damage the sound. My wife said turn it down or off, that sounds horrible, what are you doing, I said I change the wall plates, she said people will think your nuts, but put it back the way it was, I did and she walks in and said that is crazy. Well with all the wifi, and routers (5G) mine affect my garage door opener and my PC speakers had noise big time when I got it, that is how powerful the noise to electronics generates and impacts, not to mention the old school of RF/EMI. Basically, it is blocking noise where the power cord is plugged in, it's a barrier in and out. Much like Marantz and Sony and others have used in their better gear over the many years, copper shielding. That is what gave me the idea to look for pure copper wall covers and for $10.00 I said give it a go, if they don't work they look better than white plastic, so zip to lose, and I was really surprised with the results. This is why my M3s have not had some sonic issues some have had, with the cheap white ones I heard those issues, but it is not the speaker's fault it is what they are receiving and just reproducing what is coming from the system, and it's not the gear as much as the noise coming from the outlets we plug our gear into. When I put the white ones back on the ac outlets and if I heard no deterrent then I would know it was my error but that is not the case. Had my wife sit and listen to our video system and a movie with good effects and a bottom end, I took out the wall plates and installed the covers with the pure copper, turned everything back on, and told her to listen, 1st thing I heard was dialog was fuller, then the special effects went off and my wife turns it down that sounds so much louder now and the subwoofers are so strong now, only change the 2 wall plates, and on both systems (audio and video) I have power conditioners and the wall plates still make hearable benefits.
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My mistake. I was intending my post to be at Bengenito who posted that he ordered the plates. You (Mr.Big) have previously given us a detailed report. I wanted to see if this effort helps across the board or just was something in your house that helped.
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….Based on cheap plastic/nylon pure copper or even antique copper one noise floor is easily heard as being lower, the bass impact was vastly improved and deeper, midrange detail better, and highs more detailed yet smoother with a greater focus and imaging….
Mr. Big, are your electrical outlets housed in metal or plastic boxes? I’m asking because mine are plastic and I was wondering if the copper plates would still offer an improvement installed on plastic boxes? If so, I will give it a shot.
Thanks
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I’m sure it could help even with a plastic box. I’ve had a Furutech carbon cover for years now, and have heard a difference in multiple homes/systems with plastic boxes.
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Mr. Big, are your electrical outlets housed in metal or plastic boxes? I’m asking because mine are plastic and I was wondering if the copper plates would still offer an improvement installed on plastic boxes? If so, I will give it a shot.
My outlets are in blue plastic boxes, installed in the last six years. Grounding and polarity test correct, and the system is running from an Audioquest Niagara 3000 power conditioner. The Niagara has exclusive use of one outlet (although three other outlets share the same circuit).
The copper plate made a difference, and I can only assume that it is blocking EM from the junction box from affecting the plug and transmitting up the power cable. But I didn't think the plate would make a difference, and I'm not sure if that hypothesis about EM is correct.
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Mr. Big, are your electrical outlets housed in metal or plastic boxes? I’m asking because mine are plastic and I was wondering if the copper plates would still offer an improvement installed on plastic boxes? If so, I will give it a shot.
Thanks
Newer home, plastic.
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Very impressive findings from you guys concerning the copper faceplates. I ordered a pair for my two dedicated circuits.
Thanks all!
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The power cord is receiving a clean ac from the wall, as well as anything feeding back from the power cord, it is blocking out noise both ways—no different when used internally in the very well-built gear of our Sony ES gear, and with powerful routers really are putting out noise through our home nowadays and wifi and on and on. Then if you have wifi signal boosters in rooms to increase the pickup of those signals, so it's not like they worked, but to my surprise was how much they did work. It was simple and cheap at non-audiophile prices of the carbon ones which I did try and they screwed up the sound balance. Copper is effective and that is well known for years and years. Sound will be more natural detail, dynamics better, the bottom end deeper and cleaner, and the overall sound more realistic.
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I've been wanting to try a GaN Fet amp for a while now...
Regarding system matching with the Mini gaN 5...
I have Magnepan LRS speakers and an SVS sealed sub. I have a few DAC's i can use bur no preamplifier. What value preamplifier I should look out for that will bring out the best in this amp? Does it have to be balanced? I do have a Wyred 4 Sound balanced DAC that has volume control so I guess i could try that as a volume adjuster... Come to think of it, my WiiM Pro had volume adjustability as well... But I don't think I like the sound of a DAC straight into an amp.
Any advice would be appreciated!
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I would try the Wyred4Sound balanced DAC with volume attenuator to the Mini GaN 5.
A balanced DAC to a balanced amp is a good way to start.
A good preamp does help. I've tried the DAC to amp approach many times and always gone back to a preamp.
But you should get a good feel for the Mini GaN 5 without a preamp to start with.
The Mini Gan 5 definitely takes time to break in. It sounds very vibrant at first and opens up and moves more towards neutral after about 200 hours (running 8-10 hours and off 1-3 hours to work in the capacitors--they need to charge and discharge).
I've never connected a sub to my Mini GaN 5 monoblocks, so I'm no help there.
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Thank you for the advice! My budget would be happiest of I could get away with one amp. My current class D integrated amp is more powerful but I don't think I've seen it pull more than 50-60 watts on my Wattmeter.