AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Open Baffle Speakers => Topic started by: miguel42 on 12 Mar 2009, 04:39 pm
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hi
on reading various threads the opinion of the Eminence alpha 15'' seems to be preferred choice,but while visiting their web site i found a complete range of 15'' drivers,ie beta,delta etc.
what is the main reason for the alpha's choice,is it spec & sound quality ,or has the cost had any influence.
i am really looking for the best performace i can achieve within reason,are the alpha's still top choice
thanks mike
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I would think that the Alpha is an excellent all-rounder. Emerald physics must think so too otherwise they woould use other woofers.
My only complaint would be the Fs is not low enough and there is significant peak at 2kHz.
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Nelson Pass made a comment (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1734399#post1734399) on diyaudio.com that he preferred the stronger magnet of the Beta, however, to my knowledge he did not elaborate.
MJK compared all three Eminence 15" woofers here: http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/OB_Design.pdf (http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/OB_Design.pdf) Simply, the Alpha worked better with his crossover and baffle.
Of course, MJK is pioneering all passive designs. If active EQ is used on the woofers, you can likely bend the response to your liking assuming you manage xmax.
On the high-end side, aespeakers.com will build you Lambda Dipole12 or 15 woofers. But the cost difference is substantial. John usually gives a discount if you buy two woofers but my four Dipole12's where in the $800 neighborhood when I bought them in 2005.
Not having heard Alpha's I don't know if the Lambda's are worth it. Probably depends on a number of factors. I didn't know about the Alpha's or MJK's work when I bought them back in 2005. I was looking at Linkwitz who uses woofers that I believe have a pretty low Qts and a bunch of active EQ.
If I was doing it again today, I'd start with the Eminence or Goldwood. In fact I'm thinking of buying a pair to use for future OB experiments.
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If I was doing it again today, I'd start with the Eminence or Goldwood. In fact I'm thinking of buying a pair to use for future OB experiments.
A Eminence or Goldwood 15" driver with a Qts of ~1.0 is the simple, least expensive, and still a very high performance entry into OB bass drivers. Because of the high Qts, the design and build is less complicated by not requiring any additional EQ. An Eminence driver is probably a little higher quality at a little higher cost compared to a Goldwood driver. You can spend more money and get a driver with a higher pedigree, high tech design and materials, and with a more robust build but I am not convinced that it will provide that much better performance to justify 4 or 5 times the cost.
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On the high-end side, aespeakers.com will build you Lambda Dipole12 or 15 woofers. But the cost difference is substantial. John usually gives a discount if you buy two woofers but my four Dipole12's where in the $800 neighborhood when I bought them in 2005.
AE also has the less-pricey IB15 and OB15 -- four for $400. Here are their specs: AE open baffle 15"s. (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59619.msg547723#msg547723)
Regards,
John
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On the high-end side, aespeakers.com will build you Lambda Dipole12 or 15 woofers. But the cost difference is substantial. John usually gives a discount if you buy two woofers but my four Dipole12's where in the $800 neighborhood when I bought them in 2005.
AE also has the less-pricey IB15 and OB15 -- four for $400. Here are their specs: AE open baffle 15"s. (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59619.msg547723#msg547723)
I see many drivers from AE quoted with interesting specs and a wide range of prices. But when I go to the website and look at the "Products" all that is shows is the IB15. There is nothing with a "OB" or "Dipole" designation. The posted specs that have appeared on the AC forum look interesting, the price is unknown, and the availability and ordering info is not shown on the AE site. So I move on and stick with what I can find on PE's site.
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I happen to have a quad of the OB15, so they do exist. AE like a lot of businesses I patronize are little more than a 1- or 2-man shop -- Magnequest is another. An email to get info & pricing is hardly burdensome, and I might add that the dudes at AE are a pleasure to deal with.
If a tricked-out website is the minimum benchmark for your purchasing $$$, then there's plenty you're missing.
Regards,
John
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I happen to have a quad of the OB15, so they do exist. AE like a lot of businesses I patronize are little more than a 1- or 2-man shop -- Magnequest is another. An email to get info & pricing is hardly burdensome, and I might add that the dudes at AE are a pleasure to deal with.
If a tricked-out website is the minimum benchmark for your purchasing $$$, then there's plenty you're missing.
Any product that is not on the website with specs and a price as far as I am concerned is not available. It does not take much to keep your website up to date. I am not chasing a manufacturer for verbal information over the phone. How many other people pass over AE because they cannot find what they are looking for on the products listing on the website? I passed over Oddysey a few years ago for a similar reason, I bought three amps and a preamp from somebody else. How much are some small manufacturer's missing in sales because the website is out of date? Maybe business is so good that the website is not a priority. There are plenty of other people with accurate websites and competing products that will gladly take my money.
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Fair enough, Martin. I suppose that building my own amps has dulled my senses to the effort it takes to get parts. If I held the same opinion as you, I'd be stuck building with Hammond (eeek!) rather than getting custom power transformers from Heyboer and plate chokes & output transformers from Magnequest.
I ordered a spare set of cones from Fertin a couple of years ago -- to me, that's the standard for onereous. 66 emails and 4 months, start to finish.
Regards,
John
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I see many drivers from AE quoted with interesting specs and a wide range of prices. But when I go to the website and look at the "Products" all that is shows is the IB15. There is nothing with a "OB" or "Dipole" designation. The posted specs that have appeared on the AC forum look interesting, the price is unknown, and the availability and ordering info is not shown on the AE site. So I move on and stick with what I can find on PE's site.
John seems to be able to build any of the old Lambda woofers although he doesn't actively advertise them on his site but for lambda specs the best place to go is to the old lambdacoustics.com site cached at web.archive.org. You can find some data in his forums. He sounds like a busy guy in dire need of staff.
I payed $269 + $169 for each woofer pair.
My Dipole12 specs:
These are the actual Lambda dipoles. Underhung motor, 12+mm Xmax, copper faraday so Le is only .0375mH with the dual 8ohm coils in series.
Here are parameters for coils in series:
Fs: 25.9Hz
Qms: 11
Vas: 273L
Cms: .7mm/N
Rms: .81kg/s
Xmax 12mm
Xmech: 18mm
Sd: 530sqcm
Qes: .73
Re: 3.075ohm
Le: .0375mH
Z: 4ohm
Bl: 6.1Tm
PE: 100W
Qts:.68
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hi
i have e-mailed ae about his drive units,''dont forget i am in england'' but this was a couple of days ago and he has not even managed a reply !!!,from what i understand the new ob drivers are very popular but still a reply would be good..waiting in anticipation
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Sometimes it worth chasing a hard to get product. I've done that, but not with something like a pro driver with the vast number of choices.
To the OP, I'm sure you've read the forum and can see your question is on many people's mind. The fact that Martin was able to build a system with a $60 15inch driver is a testament to his modeling skills and the potential of OB. The answers you've received are good. If your doing active crossover, there are likely more expensive drivers that have better sonic characteristics than the Alpha. You'll still want to do the math to get an idea of the levels it will take to get bass. The two "gotchas" are adequate bass without distortion, and all drivers exhibiting good characteristics at the crossover points. There's all kinds of thoughts of where the bass to mid xover should be.
If you're going to do a mockup, one way to choose drivers is based upon their potential use in other projects. One reason I would not use the Alpha is that I would always wonder about a expensive driver. But the logical reason to use the alpha is that it's proven and a terrific bargain. I do this for fun and do not want to be logical in that way. I would rather learn from mistakes. "I was sure the 31" woofer would match with the Feastrex........" :)
Edit: I didn't notice the 0-300 hz. The best 15" driver for 0-300hz is a 18" driver :). My concern with an inexpensive drive like the alpha is it's "voice" as it gets above 300 hz. The high efficiency of alpha and the fact no one complains about it running out of xmax make it a good choice. I would chose to put extra money in the midrange rather than a more expensive deep bass. I assume you know your not getting a flat line to 20hz in 15" OB no matter what you spend on the driver.
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thanks for the comment,i am already running atc sm75-150 mid units which i re-guard as the best money can buy,one thing i have started doing is taking measurements in more 'actual' listening position ie in my rather odd shaped triangle extension with some really nasty corners to the room
at the moment i am experimenting with a volt 3143 unit in a ported reflex enclosure and the same driver in a plain flat ob panel, almost no matter where i place the reflex enclosure i am getting high & low db readings all over the place,and cant find a comfortable location anyware apart from in the middle of the room(not popular with the wife but does make a good table for the beer).however the ob design is giving an extremely flat responce almost everyware ,some 5-6 db higher than the mid to high frequency's already being produced by the rest of the design.
unfortunately the bass still sounds a bit light even though much cleaner ?.
after reading the theory on 1/4 wave enclosures i am going to try the H style enclosure to see if i can extend the bass frequency's while having a few extra db to loose on the gain.
I'm still not sure if the light bass sound is due to the lack of db or bass extension or even too many years of hearing the booming undertones which i have thought to be the norm.
i can only apologise to save the word as yet another piece or 8x4 will be going under the jig saw this weekend.will post my results!!!
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even though I'm still playing with my volt units i haven't ruled out the AE ob/ib 15's i just haven't had any reply yet,its been a week now
while still checking the net i came across Hawthorne audio and their silver Iris ob 15'' Augie...has anybody had any dealings with Hawthorne and more importantly the iris 15'' driver....
thanks mike
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Try Bob in St Louis here on AC, he has plenty of Hawthorne experience...
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Yea, I got a few of them. :wink:
I can't speak of the drivers mentioned previously in the thread, but I can speak about the Augies.
As far as the taughtness of the bass they produce, I'd call it "Tighter than a bulls ass on rodeo day".
No sloppy mud here. No Sirree.
The extra bonus is you can't hurt them, I've tried.
Give me half a chance and I'll rant about them for hours. You'd be hard pressed to find a higher recommendation for Augies than from me.
Bob
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Yea, I got a few of them. :wink:
I can't speak of the drivers mentioned previously in the thread, but I can speak about the Augies.
As far as the taughtness of the bass they produce, I'd call it "Tighter than a bulls ass on rodeo day".
No sloppy mud here. No Sirree.
The extra bonus is you can't hurt them, I've tried.
Give me half a chance and I'll rant about them for hours. You'd be hard pressed to find a higher recommendation for Augies than from me.
Bob
x2 for the Hawthorne Augies, very nice drivers. I use them in my DIY OBs in my 2 channel room:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=12941)
I am also using the AE IB15 (older generation than what is currently available) in my HT, they are very nice as well:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=14210)
I have never tried to compare them, they serve different functions. The AE IB15s are used in an infinite baffle from 80 Hz down, my Augies are used from 200 Hz down.
Best,
Ed
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I was thinking about your DIY speakers Ed. I still think they're sexy. :wink:
Bob
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I really like Ed's design. I may be "borrowing" the concept.
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I have been using the Hawthorne Audio 15" Augie for bass duty in my system for the past year and cannot say enough good things about them.
The Augies provide very lifelike bass reproduction and sound more like music and not like boomy subs. I have a pair that I run as OB subs and will most likely be adding an additional pair at some point in the future.
I have never used them as high are you are so I am not sure if someone who owns Augies can chime in about using them up to 300hz.
I have to also mention that the support provided by Darrel & Diana Hawthorne on their website forum is nothing short of world class just like their products.
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thanks to nick,bob and ed
it looks like a bit of a no brain-er with the Augie's, i will be crossing them over a little higher (mid 300's) but i cant see this to be an issue...the only problem seems how to get them, i feel a bit of a duck out of water, or should i say a duck across the water!!! , am i the only person in England trying ob designs.
i have e-mailed hawthorn and hope to get a response shorty..cant wait to get my hands on a lovely pair (ooh arr)..
thanks again mike
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If you email Diana Hawthorne directly, she's the "shipping department" for the company. She'll be the one to calculate the shipping cost to you.
Yes, there are few guys in England with not only open baffle, but Hawthorne drivers in OB. The company just recently added the 37th country they've shipped to, so England won't be a problem.
I really don't think you'll have a problem with 300. I forget now what they're capable of on the high end, but from what I remember, it was high enough to make me think, "There's nobody that's ever going to go that high with these kind of drivers". My apologies for not knowing Mike.
Bob
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Do the Augie's play loud enough in O.B. ? I plan on EQing the bottom bass. The SPL and max power aren't very high.
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Hi,
I'm a Brit in the US newly enjoying the wonderful Hawthorne products. I have Trio's using 15" Sterlings and 2 Auggies per side driven by two Rythmik PEQ370 OB plate amps. With traditional high powered box woofers and subs, I find the wall of high pressure sound is initially impressive, but gets very tiring quite quickly. The Auggies, although not rattling your trouser legs, play more than loud enough for me with most rock music unless you're a complete headbanger.... in fact, because they are so easy to listen to, you'll find they are going much louder than you think. I find them just more true to life, accurate and pleasant to listen to than any other bass system I have heard.... I wont say subwoofer, because they're not.... but they play low enough for me to not miss one with any music. The Auggies don't tend to excite room vibrations like normal woofers and have next to zero overhang and are very fast.
Best,
Mark
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Right on about websites MJ. I don't linger long on sites that don't have an easy way to buy, are short on info, or rarely updated (like planet10)
I haven't heard the Augie. But my Pyle PA15s are cheaper, have a bigger magnet, less moving mass, a super low fs (27) that matches the Augie and a Q closer to optimum .65. Plus the Augie plot is like a huge mountain below 100hz while the Pyle rolls off more sanely.
I had Underwood Hifi work on my cheapo Denon POA800 and once I got it hooked up the bass through the Pyles was more tight and clean than anything I've heard to date. Even louder than I can stand and the cones move about 2mm. The Alpha 15 is nowhere near this level of performance.
'But they're UGLY!!' Not when I get through modding them:
http://img27.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0000124.jpg
Anyone interested in this mod just let me know.
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I have conducted some simulations with MJK's Worksheet to see at what frequency within the drivers stated X-max some 15-inchers spoken of here will reach 100 dB SPL. 30 Hz was chosen as the lowest frequency to estimate at. Testbed has been an H-frame with dimensions 16" x 16" x 15" (length is 15" including a 1" thick baffle). The H-frame has the advantage that frequency response can be tailord to within 1 dB by choosing an appropiate LP frequency. This was specified as Linkwitz-Riley 12 dB/oct. All units will eventually start to fall off between 250 - 300 Hz. In this way we have used the H-frame to EQ response and applied power will give what it takes to reach those 100 dBs, 1 m distance 32 inch earheight. All units will loose in efficiency in the H-frame, and all results are for just 1 unit. Have a look at MJK's excellent paper on H- and U-frame to get the spirit of this: http://www.quarter-wave.com/OBs/U_and_H_Frames.pdf .
Results:
Frequency(Hz) SPL Cone swing X-max Power
AE IB15 30 100 9 mm 18.5 mm 220 w/8 ohm
AE TD-Dipol (Lynn O) 30 100 9 mm 9 mm 40 w/4 ohm
SI Augie 32 100 7.1 mm 7.1 mm 80 w/8 ohm
Alpha15 43 100 3.6 mm 3.6 mm 28 w/8 ohm
GW-1858 (in 19x19x15) 37 100 3.4 mm 3.4 mm 36 w/8 ohm
Perhaps interesting ?
/Erling
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Single driver: the AE IB15 ...SS watts are cheap.
Two drivers: AE TD-Dipol (Lynn O) ...in series, still efficient, twice the surface area.
In my own experience (4 x 12" - ~ equivalent to 2 x 15"), all would work in a two driver set up. The superiority of the AE designs depends on where they would be crossed: at 150Hz, where I lowpass mine, I could find better ways in which to spend my money.
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Does the software give an indication of sound quality?
Bob
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Thanks Erling, the numbers are helpful. Since Martin's spreadsheet is no longer available, what's the best second choice?
I have considered the IB15, but it won't be available for several months. I'm concerned about distortion on the IB15, considering the huge xmax.
What has been the experience with adding a boxed subwoofer at 50hz with the common 15" drivers?
Have any of you modeled the 12" peerless XXL as a woofer (up to 200-300hz?)
Thanks.
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No it won't say anything about sound quality, Bob.
It says something about the formidable demands that actually will excist even on 15" units to reach 30 Hz 100 dB in OB.
The Augie I have heard, it is very good, the Alphas I have myself and they are good enough. I think others have witnessed that IB15 is smooth even at big cone swing. Except for the AE IB15, which actually would reach 100 dB - 30 Hz no doubt, differences among the others are not very striking.
I did a simulation on the Peerless XXL model 830847 12" in a 16x16x15 H-frame. It will reach 100 dB at 40 Hz with 7 mm swing with 256 w/4 ohm and 30 Hz 97 dB with the same power at 12.5 mm X-max.
I think the comparison in H-frames is fair, it will actually demand much less from the units at these low frequencies than putting them on a flat baffle measuring 40" x 20" . The high Qts, low cone mass Alpha15 is an exception it will reach 100 dB 40 Hz with 5 mm cone swing with 17 watts/8 ohm.
/Erling
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What has been the experience with adding a boxed subwoofer at 50hz with the common 15" drivers?
Have any of you modeled the 12" peerless XXL as a woofer (up to 200-300hz?)
Thanks.
4 Augies per side (8 total) and a servo sub for the lowest octave.
(http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/photos/albums/userpics/10028/SI_Array%2BDS15.jpg)
Another forum member's old build, but droooooooool :drool: 50hz seems a bit high; the servo in the picture is crossed at 28hz.
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I have conducted some simulations with MJK's Worksheet to see at what frequency within the drivers stated X-max some 15-inchers spoken of here will reach 100 dB SPL. 30 Hz was chosen as the lowest frequency to estimate at. Testbed has been an H-frame with dimensions 16" x 16" x 15" (length is 15" including a 1" thick baffle).
Results:
Frequency(Hz) SPL Cone swing X-max Power
AE IB15 30 100 9 mm 18.5 mm 220 w/8 ohm
AE TD-Dipol (Lynn O) 30 100 9 mm 9 mm 40 w/4 ohm
SI Augie 32 100 7.1 mm 7.1 mm 80 w/8 ohm
Alpha15 43 100 3.6 mm 3.6 mm 28 w/8 ohm
GW-1858 (in 19x19x15) 37 100 3.4 mm 3.4 mm 36 w/8 ohm
Perhaps interesting ?
/Erling
VERY interesting, Erling :)
Now if you could also add the AE OB15, the table would be perfect.
I'm going to read the paper about U and H frame. Because I cannot use H frame for WAF reasons, I need to figure out the response with a U frame.
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Hey Erling,
If it's not too much trouble, I'd be curious to see the numbers for a 22" X 22" flat baffle.
{Sorry if my comment earlier sounded a little snippy}.
Bob
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I did a simulation on the Peerless XXL model 830847 12" in a 16x16x15 H-frame. It will reach 100 dB at 40 Hz with 7 mm swing with 256 w/4 ohm and 30 Hz 97 dB with the same power at 12.5 mm X-max.
This is different from the SLS-315 that I plan to use, or not? If they are different, could you run the sim with 315 soo?
Thanks!
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I haven't heard the Augie. But my Pyle PA15s are cheaper, have a bigger magnet, less moving mass, a super low fs (27) that matches the Augie and a Q closer to optimum .65. Plus the Augie plot is like a huge mountain below 100hz while the Pyle rolls off more sanely.
Anyone interested in this mod just let me know.
/Interested.
But do they sell the drivers alone?
I cant find them, only PPA15 model:
http://www.pyleaudio.com/manuals/PPA8-10-12-15-18.pdf
It looks fine but not great, on paper.
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thanks to nick,bob and ed
it looks like a bit of a no brain-er with the Augie's, i will be crossing them over a little higher (mid 300's) but i cant see this to be an issue...the only problem seems how to get them, i feel a bit of a duck out of water, or should i say a duck across the water!!! , am i the only person in England trying ob designs.
i have e-mailed hawthorn and hope to get a response shorty..cant wait to get my hands on a lovely pair (ooh arr)..
thanks again mike
The Augies will do a great job for you. They have been a part of the last 4 OB projects I have built, they simply sound great, musical bass, very nice.
Best,
Ed
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I've never seen this Dayton discussed fro OB. Not only are the specs good, but it's a hifi, not pro driver.
RSS390HF-4 15" High Fidelity Subwoofer Specifications
* Power handling: 500 watts RMS/800 watts max
* VCdia: 2-1/2"
* Le: 1.00 mH
* Impedance: 4 ohms
* Re: 3.3 ohms
* Frequency range: 18 - 800 Hz
* Fs: 18 Hz
* SPL: 90 dB 2.83 V/1m (or 87 ???)
* Vas: 9.55 cu. ft.
* Qms: 3.10
* Qes: .49
* Qts: .42
* Xmax: 14mm
* Dimensions:
Overall Diameter: 15-5/16"
Cutout Diameter: 14-1/8"
Mounting Depth: 6-1/8"
Here's a link to more specs: http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-468s.pdf (http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-468s.pdf)
Edit: Emailed Dayton, they said spl of 90 is incorrect. Should be 87. :(
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Yea telstar it's the same thing as PPA 15. Since the first P stands for Pyle I just called them Pyle PA15.
I'm surprised at the lack of interest in these drivers, but I understand that a Q of .65 seems too low for many people. But I think it's ideal. As you go up in Q, magnets usually shrink. This gives you more bass in OB but less control. I'm betting the Augie is quite good although I don't like the idea of a 'mass disk'. The Alphas have nice output in OB but the motor is far too weak for accurate sound. The best you'll get is Mr. Carver's 'Rolling' bass.
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Yea telstar it's the same thing as PPA 15. Since the first P stands for Pyle I just called them Pyle PA15.
I'm surprised at the lack of interest in these drivers, but I understand that a Q of .65 seems too low for many people. But I think it's ideal. As you go up in Q, magnets usually shrink. This gives you more bass in OB but less control. I'm betting the Augie is quite good although I don't like the idea of a 'mass disk'. The Alphas have nice output in OB but the motor is far too weak for accurate sound. The best you'll get is Mr. Carver's 'Rolling' bass.
I'm looking for drivers that i can get within Europe. Overseas shipment kills the budget - its between 130 and 300$ for a pair of 15" drivers.
Thanks for the reply on the Pyle model.
I have simulated in Basta the PPA12, but the Peerless is still marginally superior.
The 15" that you use instead looks much better.
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...............
I'm surprised at the lack of interest in these drivers, but I understand that a Q of .65 seems too low for many people. .................
I think people are getting that a Qts closer to 5 will likely be more musical. What's hard to judge are the distortion characteristics of a driver driven hard. That's one reason I keep looking at Dayton products. They clearly differentiate between hifi and hi output drivers. I expect that the best sound is from a hifi design that will need to be driven hard. Considering the current emphasis on low power amps, this may be a problem for some people to accept. But I feel a pro amp is ideal to drive these kinds of big woofers.
There's also a lower Fs on hifi woofers. While Fs can be too low (in my limited understanding of the modeling), the pro woofer Fs is almost always too high.
The other factor is the original question of this thread. Are we designing to cross over at 200-300 or 800-1000? The older higher xover designs need to have the woofer good in the low vocal range. But if I'm designing for a woofer from 50-200 hz, how do the characteristics of the ideal woofer change?
Edit: Let me add that my OB will have an active xover. I would need to be more careful with a passive.
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But I feel a pro amp is ideal to drive these kinds of big woofers.
I agree. That's what I'm using.
Bob
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Hey Bob, in researching Dayton, I saw you sold some woofers out of a sub. several months ago. Those units had pretty good specs for OB. Did you consider using those Dayton in OB?
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Yea I did (think about it), but never got around to it. At the time, there was something about the specs I didn't like for OB, but can't recall what it was.
Funny you mention that sale ad I had, the buyer paid me for the enclosure and drivers months ago, but still hasn't picked them up. :duh:
Maybe if I can find the time I could install them in the spare Augie baffles I have, wire them up and play some test tones. :icon_twisted:
Bob
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dmiller,
I cannot find that woofer on Dayton website. But I found a nice 12-incher that can compete with the Peerless 315 if the price is right.
QT305-4 12" Quatro Specifications
* Power Handling: 250 watts RMS/500 watts max
* VCdia: 2-1/2"
* Le: 2.5 mH
* Znom: 4 ohms
* Re: 3.50 ohms
* Frequency range: 25-200 Hz
* Magnet weight: 56 oz.
* Fs: 27 Hz
* SPL: 93.6 dB 2.83V/1m
* Vas: 4.24 cu. ft.
* Qms: 10.5
* Qes: .37
* Qts: .36
* Xmax: 10 mm
* Dimensions:
Overall Diameter: 12"
Cutout Diameter: 11"
Mounting Depth: 6"
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I think I found it at the bottom of classics. The one above is interesting too:
DCS380-4 15 " Subwoofer 4 OHM Specifications
* Power handling: 250 watts RMS/350 watts max
* Voice coil diameter: 2"
* Le: 2.30 mH
* Impedance: 4 ohms
* Re: 3.1 ohms
* Frequency range: 20-500 Hz
* Fs: 20 Hz
* SPL: 92 dB 2.83V/1m (89)
* Vas: 9.70 cu. ft.
* Qms: 4.00
* Qes: .50
* Qts: .44
* Xmax: 8.5 mm
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There's also the 18" version that looks pretty good:
The Dayton Classic 18" Subwoofer is an excellent general-purpose subwoofer that works well as a replacement in powered subwoofer systems, or for new system design and construction. For the utmost versatility, the parameters are suitable for sealed or vented enclosures. The heavy-duty cone, wide-roll rubber surround, and long linear excursion ensure excellent low-bass performance. Specificaitons: * Power handling: 300 watts RMS/450 watts max * VCdia: 3" * Le: 2.96 mH * Impedance: 4 ohms * Re: 3.2 ohms * Frequency range: 22-500 Hz * Fs: 25 Hz * SPL: 94 dB 2.83V/1m, 91 dB 1W/1m * Vas: 9.90 cu. ft. * Qms: 5.64 * Qes: .51 * Qts: .47 * Xmax: 8.25mm * Dimensions: A: 18", B: 17", C: 6-7/8".
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deeleted
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x2 for the Hawthorne Augies, very nice drivers. I use them in my DIY OBs in my 2 channel room:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=12941)
Ed's design is my inspiration. No problem with 18" in this design, IMO.
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looks like I'm down to the final pair..
hawthorns silver iris ob Augie's or AE's ob15's(when i can get a reply)
looks like a bit of a tough one,having not heard either ?
any thought's !!!!!!! 'dont forget they are crossing over at 380 hz'
thanks mike..
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I was thinking about your DIY speakers Ed. I still think they're sexy. :wink:
Bob
Gee, thanks Bob :oops:.... :lol:
Ed's design is my inspiration. No problem with 18" in this design, IMO.
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I'm glad you like them. FWIW, the 15" Augies can produce more bass than I need in my small space (10.5'x12.5'x8'), the level is barely turned up on the amps. They each have their own 100 watt sub amp and are crossed at 200 Hz. The baffle they are in is approximately 18" high and 28" wide, although with the curved baffle they appear to be about 24" wide. Best of luck with the build.
Best,
Ed
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looks like I'm down to the final pair..
hawthorns silver iris ob Augie's or AE's ob15's(when i can get a reply)
looks like a bit of a tough one,having not heard either ?
any thought's !!!!!!! 'dont forget they are crossing over at 380 hz'
thanks mike..
The AE is superior in every way on paper, and has a good reputation. It also would allow you to experiment with crossovers well above 300Hz, which could prove useful while prototyping.
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I cannot find that woofer on Dayton website.
I think I found it at the bottom of classics.
If you guys are talking about my Dayton's, Here's a link (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-130%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&FTR=st385&CFID=6760208&CFTOKEN=84773351) to the Parts Express page with specs.
Bob
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Ed's design is my inspiration. No problem with 18" in this design, IMO.
Yes, it's a nice looking baffle. :)
Unfortunatley, I dont have the floor spacing to go over 40cm (it would cover the rack). So it's 15" max, while the 12" is very temping for aesthetic reasons.
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looks like I'm down to the final pair..
hawthorns silver iris ob Augie's or AE's ob15's(when i can get a reply)
looks like a bit of a tough one,having not heard either ?
any thought's !!!!!!! 'dont forget they are crossing over at 380 hz'
thanks mike..
The AE is superior in every way on paper, and has a good reputation. It also would allow you to experiment with crossovers well above 300Hz, which could prove useful while prototyping.
What's the price on the AE TD-Dipol???
Anyone have a link to info/data?
Doak
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finally made the choice to go with the ob 15's only to find out not available until end of may !!! (if all goes well)...i don't suppose anybody has an extra pair lying around or is john open to a bribe..
mike
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Well, that's the price to be paid for choosing essentially handmade products instead of batch-made products from China. Granted, you may not care whether it's made in the U.S., but it warms the cockles of my heart that this is still possible. In the meantime, the added delay could work to your advantage because it will allow you to think and rethink your initial assumptions. You may end up learning something that makes you change directions with regard to other drivers, etc..
...just trying to find a silver lining here. :wink:
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I see a lot of recommendation for the Hawthorne Augie everywhere. In fact that's why I also bought a pair about a year ago to see if they would perform better in OB then my vintage JBL woofers do. Unfortunatly I'm very sorry to say that they don't. They don't even come close,they can not be used up to 300Hz that's for sure, they sound very muddy that high up. I would not use them any higher then 80Hz or so and even then with at least 24db/oct crossover otherwise it starts to sound muddy again very soon. The JBL provide much more punch and are playing very effortless compared to the augies. When you are using a good woofer in your system you will notice that the whole spectrum will benefit. When I use the JBL's as subs up to 80Hz the system gets more ease, more air, lows, mids, highs all sound better, imaging improves a lot. With the Augie's this never happened. Very sorry to say this but all I want to say is be carefull with other peoples recommendations it just might not be your cup of tea.
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I see a lot of recommendation for the Hawthorne Augie everywhere. In fact that's why I also bought a pair about a year ago to see if they would perform better in OB then my vintage JBL woofers do. Unfortunatly I'm very sorry to say that they don't. They don't even come close,they can not be used up to 300Hz that's for sure, they sound very muddy that high up. I would not use them any higher then 80Hz or so and even then with at least 24db/oct crossover otherwise it starts to sound muddy again very soon. The JBL provide much more punch and are playing very effortless compared to the augies. When you are using a good woofer in your system you will notice that the whole spectrum will benefit. When I use the JBL's as subs up to 80Hz the system gets more ease, more air, lows, mids, highs all sound better, imaging improves a lot. With the Augie's this never happened. Very sorry to say this but all I want to say is be carefull with other peoples recommendations it just might not be your cup of tea.
I would have to say you need to look elsewhere for your issue if you say the Augie can't be used even at 80 hz. I have been using my Augies up to 200 Hz with outstanding results for close to 3 years now, in fact they have been my bass driver of choice in my last 4 builds. But you do offer some good advise, "be carefull with other peoples recommendations it just might not be your cup of tea".
Best,
Ed
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:whip: :lol:
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:whip: :lol:
Alright Bob, perhaps that was a little abrupt, it was the first post I read today :lol:. But seriously, have you EVER heard anything coming out of an Augie that could be remotely classified as "muddy"? I know I haven't, musical, clean, articulate, yes...but muddy, never.
I probably need more caffine, feeling a bit grumpy today. :wink:
Best,
Ed
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No Ed, I've never heard mud from the Augies. However I've never run them higher than 120Hz due to the main drivers having the ability to reach the mid double digit range.
Yea, you should get some more coffee dude.
Maybe a Mountain Dew or two. :rotflmao:
Bob :wink:
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4 Augies per side (8 total) and a servo sub for the lowest octave.
(http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/photos/albums/userpics/10028/SI_Array%2BDS15.jpg)
Another forum member's old build, but droooooooool :drool: 50hz seems a bit high; the servo in the picture is crossed at 28hz.
A little late in the game, but just wanted to correct the OP's above observation about the crossover settings of the servo sub: the subwoofer in the above picture is not LOW-passed at 28 Hz., it is set to have the servo correct DOWN to 28 Hz. The lowest LP setting is 40 Hz. on that sub - I know because I have one.
To digress a bit more: I'm not sure why exactly it is set to correct down to 28 - that's the highest (ie: worst) option (http://www.rythmikaudio.com/images/A300SE.jpg), it can also do 20, and 14. The latter (14 Hz.) is the best choice for sound quality - it has the best group delay curve, which is what you want for reproduction, especially in a system as nice as that.
I've said it before: the Rythmik subs are the nicest I've ever heard, and are utterly unobtrusive during use, but offer SO much ambience and detail retrieval: I was amazed at how EVERYTHING sounded better after including it in my system - even girl-and-guitar type music with seemingly no LF content. Everything was better.
With all that said, I'm about to go from boxed, ported midbass, to a 4 x 15" OB setup - and couldn't be more excited!
cheers,
-Tal
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Did anyone mention the Lambda Acoustics with Appolo motor now made and sold thru Acoustic Elegance (AES)?
http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=8 (http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=8)
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That looks like a wonderful driver. But that magnet looks too small to get the job done accurately.
I want PUNCH!
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That looks like a wonderful driver. But that magnet looks too small to get the job done accurately.
I want PUNCH!
Actually, the magnet is that size to DECREASE the total damping of the speaker to get it in the range of where is optimal for an open-baffle (essentially unloaded) "enclosure". The speaker has a Qts of 0.7 which is IDEAL for an IB or OB situation. "Punch" has to do with EQ, and has been argued that isn't available in a velocity-source based system (open baffle,dipole, etcetera).
Also, in regards to:
Did anyone mention the Lambda Acoustics with Appolo motor now made and sold thru Acoustic Elegance (AES)?
The IB15 driver does NOT have the Apollo motor upgrade - that is expensive and only used in applications where one needs the output of two drivers in a situation where there is only room for one, and the one is power-limited. The Apollo adds a lot of heatsinking capability to the (already VERY impressive) motor of (all) the Acoustic Elegance drivers. This allows continuous high-power operation BEYOND the tolerances of the standard motor.
As distortion is proportional to cone excursion, two drivers would always be preferable if possible...
With that said, the quartet of 15" drivers I mentioned earlier is a 4-pack of IB15s from Acoustic Elegance. After doing the research, the only competitor I found for this level of quality and this application is the DPL-15 from Diycable.com. Kevin Haskins from that company is in the top echelon of customer service available. The only reason I went with the IB15 (the DPL-15 is actually superior, with slightly greater xmax, and more focus on reducing self-noise from the driver as it is actually designed for dipole use - versus the IB15 has found incidental popularity in the open-baffle crowd as it is targeted at infinite baffle applications, where it is flat to 10 Hz. when used as specified) is that AE was offering a $400 for a four-pack which makes it $160 cheaper than the DPL-15 drivers (http://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?products_id=684)
cheers,
-Tal Allweil
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A little late in the game, but just wanted to correct the OP's above observation about the crossover settings of the servo sub: the subwoofer in the above picture is not LOW-passed at 28 Hz., it is set to have the servo correct DOWN to 28 Hz. The lowest LP setting is 40 Hz. on that sub - I know because I have one.
An active crossover overcomes that 40hz limit :green:
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Well, extremely late post but I never really know where I'm going to find my old systems turn up! First off, the Rythmik DS15 was in fact crossed over below 30hz. I do not have stock crossover boards installed, but custom 20-80 hz boards. Secondly the 14, 20, and 28 hz settings are not servo correction range settings, but reflect the shape, or "q" of the eq applied to the driver. Anyway, the pictured system was good fun, but doesn't fit into the current home environment. Currently dabbling again in horns, though who knows what the future will bring!