AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: Yomaha on 10 Jun 2019, 03:55 pm
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My lovely wife bought me a VPI Cliffwood for my 40th birthday! I've read that it takes about 20 hours to burn in. My first impressions are really not very good. I know there are a lot of variables at play, but I wanted to see if I just have unrealistic expectations, or should I be more patient.
The sound stage is collapsed, not much separation, dynamics are there but not as much as I expected. Most things sound pretty flat and unengaging. I have a Rega Rp-1 that I am going to A/B with later today. I also have some level 2 shielded Anticables coming in to replace my throwaway interconnects I have in place now.
For nearly a year I've been listening exclusively to my PS Audio DSD Sr., but decided I wanted to dust off my record collection. I A/B'd the Cliffwood versus the DSD Sr., and in my system, it wasn't even close...in favor of DSD. Is that not a fair comparison given the different price points? I was hoping to recapture some vinyl magic, and so far it just isn't there.
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Yomaha, that's a bit of an open ended story. There's a lot that can be going on here. While I haven't had a Cliffwood in my own system, I have had (and do have) VPI tables, the sound of which is generally consistent from table to table. I've also heard the older Traveler a number of times in other systems and would not say it sounded collapsed or flat.
What cart are you using? Has the alignment been checked? If using a MC, have you checked the phono-pre loading? By comparison, what cart is on your RP-1?
I also own a DSD Sr., running Snowmass. My VPI Avenger (and my Classic 3 before it) sound and sounded better IMO that my DSD in most ways.
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Collapsed sound stage and poor separation sounds like cart alignment to me. Back when I was listening to vinyl, when my alignment was off, I would suffer similar issues.
Also of note could be the phono stage.
The DSD Dac is highly regarded in terms of digital playback. I've never heard one, but it is a six thousand dollar piece (usually sells for much less).
Vinyl can offer some of the best playback SQ one could hope for, but it certainly doesn't come cheap, and it certainly isn't set and forget.
Enjoy the journey!
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Yomaha, that's a bit of an open ended story. There's a lot that can be going on here. While I haven't had a Cliffwood in my own system, I have had (and do have) VPI tables, the sound of which is generally consistent from table to table. I've also heard the older Traveler a number of times in other systems and would not say it sounded collapsed or flat.
What cart are you using? Has the alignment been checked? If using a MC, have you checked the phono-pre loading? By comparison, what cart is on your RP-1?
I also own a DSD Sr., running Snowmass. My VPI Avenger (and my Classic 3 before it) sound and sounded better IMO that my DSD in most ways.
tonyptony, yes it is a bit open-ended. The Cliffwood is supposed to come with the GradoGreen cart, as advertised by the factory and on the dealer website where I bought the table. It's a solid dealer that I have used several times, yet for some reason, this Cliffwood showed up with an Ortofon Red cart. I have contacted them as to what is the story there, but haven't heard anything back yet. Seems odd since it specifies grado green on my invoice also.
Ortofon Red is what I have on my Rega RP-1. It's MM loading at 47k via the Modwright SWL 9.0AE phono card. I know my Rp-1 thru my older SS Van Alstine pre sounded better. Not a knock on any of those components in any way...I was just expecting a bit more considering these higher price point components. I know a higher price doesn't always mean better, but this is so underwhelming I feel like something is wrong...must be alignment. Given VPI authorized dealer I bought this from, I was expecting it to be properly aligned.
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What is the turntable sitting on? Is it a rack, wood shelf? I've had a VPI Classic, Scout, and several even better turntable/arm combos. I built my own wall-mount shelf out of MDF and oak plywood. I thought it would be even better sounding than the very inexpensive Cambre rack I bought used for $150. I was wrong. My wall-mount added much coloration to the sound and made my comparisons skewed. Putting the turntable back on the cheap rack made the sound much better. I now have 2 shorter Sistrum SP-101 racks that sound extremely good with much life, dynamics, clarity, and expansive soundstage. Unfortunately, I made quite a few decisions on turntables using that wall-mount shelf. What it sits on makes a very large difference.
Bob
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Ortofon Red is what I have on my Rega RP-1. It's MM loading at 47k via the Modwright SWL 9.0AE phono card. I know my Rp-1 thru my older SS Van Alstine pre sounded better. Not a knock on any of those components in any way...I was just expecting a bit more considering these higher price point components. I know a higher price doesn't always mean better, but this is so underwhelming I feel like something is wrong...must be alignment. Given VPI authorized dealer I bought this from, I was expecting it to be properly aligned.
The Red is a nice cart for the money, and as you already have it on the Rega you should have a good sense of what to expect. I'm leaning toward alignment as kingdeezie has suggested. Do you have the VPI alignment jig? I understand - you'd like to hope that your dealer did a proper job with the alignment. It is possible, however, that it may be off. Good luck with the checkout!
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Is the dealer local? Or, did it ship out to you? It’s not impossible for the cartridge to have shifted in transit, even slightly. With carts small shifts can mean big changes.
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It was shipped to me from CA so it had quite a trek. When it arrived I took a picture of the box outer box (was double boxed) bc it had a huge dent in it.
I swapped in my RP-1 and it instantly sounded like what I remembered it should sound like...dynmaics, air, space, etc. It felt good and verified I wasn't crazy. Alignment sounds like the issue..pun intended...but still doesn't explain why I got Ortofon red instead of Grado Green as advertised. Gonna a call them tomorrow.
So what is the best way to align the Ortofon Red? I don't have any tools...I'm pretty novice in turntable world. Rp1 was set up by a good shop in Pasadena...but I don't have that luxury where I live now. I'm open to doing it myself...any recs on tools, tips or guides?
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Go to Vinyl Engine and read up on your tonearm. Then contact AC member Wayner about purchasing his cardboard jig for alignment (does a good job at a very reasonable cost). At Vinyl Engine, find the download for a template generator... great tool that will print out a guide to match your tonearm. Watch a few youtube videos on alignment and get after it.
I'd certainly ask about the Grado Green. Although I like Ortofons in general, I'm not a fan of the mm Red. I like the sound of Grado's as long as they don't hum.
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I agree with S Clark's recommendations. I'm surprised, though, that the table didn't come with VPI's own alignment jig. As far as I knew VPI supplied one with their tables. :dunno: vinylengine.com is a great resource; in fact if you want to get an alignment protractor in short order you could make one yourself from the resources on that site. I can recommend the Conrad Hoffman protractor, or you could go to the 'Cartridge Alignment Protractors' page and pick another one out. You just have to make sure you print any of these out so the calibration marks measure out telling you it's been printed out to the correct scale. Easy enough to do. If you don't want to do that, Wayner's is the way to go.
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Yes, print out the Conrad Hoffman protractor, a two point Arc tool that you can generate the exact one for a specific tonearm, easily the most accurate online tool in existence. Forget the crude approximations at that website that shall forever remain nameless in my posts. Use cheap copy paper until you get the print settings correct, then print a working copy on heavy gloss photo paper using the high quality setting on your printer. As an aside the VPI template is superb, perhaps they're not eating the cost on their cheaper tables. Possibly the box was opened when the cartridge was switched and you lost the template there? I love the Grado sound and have several of their carts, but the Green is at the low end and I would think the Ortofon an upgrade.
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Thanks for all the alignment tips...gonna try to get that sorted this evening.
@Bob the turntable is sitting on the top tier of my Pangea 4 tier rack. I haven't gone done the rabbit hole of isolation devices, but I'm sure it's a palpable effect in most cases....just haven't had the time or $ to go there....yet :green:
I talked to my dealer and he said that VPI is no longer including Grado Green with their Cliffwood tables, but rather the Ortofon Red. It still shows the Green on VPI's website, but perhaps this is a very recent development.
Dealer was very confused as to why I'd buy another turntable with a $100 cart...when I already had an RP1. Perhaps that is a fair question. Well, partly it was a birthday gift from my wife and partly bc I thought it would perform better. Is that unreasonable to expect a more than modest performance boost going from RP1 to Cliffwood? Or should I have just put everything on hold until I could go Prime? But then Prime needs a suitable cart...and would probably need to upgrade my phono stage to match (at least that's how I was thinking about it.)
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You might want to try putting the VPI on the floor, if it's pretty level. See if the sound is much better than on the Pangea top shelf. A buddy of mine had his stuff on an inexpensive rack with 3 shelves. He went to putting all of it on a 2 x 12 5 ft. long board about 5 inches off the ground. The board resting on 4" pavers. The sound was considerably better than on the rack. Later, he put it all directly on the floor and it was better yet. It's a cheap thing to try, as in free. You might get a significant boost in the quality of your sound.
Bob
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Thanks for all the alignment tips...gonna try to get that sorted this evening.
Let us know what happens. If the cart is out of alignment, nothing else you will do will fix it.
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Let us know what happens. If the cart is out of alignment, nothing else you will do will fix it.
So I printed the Conrad Hoffman protractor, and the cart actually lined up pretty close to perfect. I had a magnifying glass and all...but when I played a record it still sounded not good. It occurred to me to adjust the VTF. The adjustment on the Cliffwood is not very efficient to adjust...but after loads of tinkering, I think I have dialed in. I do not have a scale though, so I'm just going by ear.
So the sound is def better...but in comparison, the RP-1 still sounds livelier, warmer, more like vinyl. So far the Cliffwood with Ortofon Red doesn't have the warmth and the midbass freqs that I was hoping for. Some nice details have started to emerge, but the same cart on my RP-1 currently sounds much more musical. I talked to the dealer and he is chalking it up to "it needs to burn in." I'm going to roll with that notion for the time being, but I really hope this improves.
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I'm not familiar enough with the Red to know what it does over a burn in period, but as your RP-1 has one (was the Red on that one new too?) you might know what it'll do. I think that's the only thing that will really change the sound significantly with a new TT. Sure, the motor might settle in a bit and get quieter, the bearing might seat itself and improve the sound somewhat, but IMO I don't think any of this other stuff will change the character of the sound relative to what you've described. Others may disagree.
The Cliffwood is supposed to be the current version of what used to be the Traveler. I've heard the Traveler sound absolutely beautiful with a Grado Black cart. I'm not suggesting you should go get a Black, but it's curious that with Ortofon's comparable cart it sounds like it isn't doing as well as the Grado. I still wonder if there's something about the setup that may not be optimal.
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If the cart is mounted properly, then look to the tonearm, possibly damaged bearings in that bump you reported. When Matt showed me the arm it seemed very easy to see the main bearing, it's a turntable bearing, don't know about the gimbals. This is not the Traveler arm that continually broke the bearings, it's supposed to be much more robust, but damage can happen.
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Unfortunately the VPI is still not sparking joy. The difference when I sub in the rp1 is immediately noticable. The red on rp1 is a couple years old. I agree that likely the setup is off. I'll be studying up on how to do that but I'm going to take a break and let my frustrations subside. If my tinkering and continued burnin doesn't improve things by the end of the month I may shelve the unit until I can make a ride to Dallas and get setup properly.
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It’s also possible that you just like the Rega house sound better than the VPI. Can you return the table? Might make more sense to spend the money moving up the Rega line.
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Kingdeezie I had thought about that but I think I still have a touch of denial...no returns whatsoever on the turntable from where I bought it. A potentially expensive lesson in not reading the fine print! It's still a pretty new table and I'm trying to be patient and open minded. :green:
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You also might try calling VPI, they used to have a fabulous service department when Sheila was alive. My experience was less than ideal, but maybe I got the wrong person on the wrong day. At least they have a wealth of experience there and may have encountered your issue several times already.
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I do not have a scale though, so I'm just going by ear.
You really need a VTF scale. Get the Riverstone Audio one on Amazon.
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You really need a VTF scale. Get the Riverstone Audio one on Amazon.
OK...Riverstone purchased...should be here by Saturday (what a time to be alive!). My quest continues. If adjusting the VTF properly doesn't help then I agree that a call to VPI may be in order.
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Does the ground wire need to be anything special? I went to home depot and got some 18 gauge wire that would typically be used for trailer lights and ran from ground on Cliffwood to grounding post on SWL9.0 and it really didn't change the hum much at all. Does ground wire need to be a specific type of wire...if so are there any good brands or wire types ya'll would recommend? Thx!
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No special wire needed. 18 ga should be fine.
Wait a minute, you have a hum now?
I might have expected a hum with the Grado known for hum. But Not the Ortofon.
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I would call VPI Monday. While you wait, try all the tone arm wire connections. Make sure it's wired correctly, double check, check for loose connectors and wires.
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Dive right into the vinyl rabbit hole and switch cartridges. The new Ortofon Red could be a bad sample, just don't get them mixed up.
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I'm happy to say that Saturday night I did some swapping back and forth between the VPI and the Rp-1...and now the VPI seems to have the upper hand. I'm guessing the break in period was/is a real thing. I know break in exists, it's just difficult to gauge and keep the faith when I'm underwhelmed right out of the box. I think my adjusting the VTF was when the real break thru started.
Thursday and Friday I was noticing more detail from VPI then Saturday I went from 180gram OK Computer on RP-1 then played it again on the VPI and it was more engaging, across the full spectrum. I started to notice more separation and some filling out of the lower mids. I think it still has a ways to go but I'm glad it has started trending in the right direction.
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Great news, Yomaha!
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Yeah I'm glad it turned for the better. Ever tried the record weights? Fern and Roby makes a very nice brass one that looks great and it's half the cost of ones I see from VPI. Is there something special/different about the more expensive weights?
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Well, I'm not sure I can tell you why one might be better than another :?:, but I can tell you that at least for me I liked a Stillpoints LPI more than my VPI HR-X weight.
Sometimes you can find used weights here, on Audiogon, or usaudiomart. Might be worth seeing what's out there.
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Well, I'm not sure I can tell you why one might be better than another :?:, but I can tell you that at least for I liked a Stillpoints LPI more than my VPI HR-X weight.
Sometimes you can find used weights here, on Audiogon, or usaudiomart. Might be worth seeing what's out there.
Saw a recent picture from Harry Weisfeld's personal setup and even he was a Stillpoints LPI. 8)
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If all weights were created equal, I'd get this brass weight by Fern and Roby strictly bc I like the aesthetic. :D
https://www.fernandroby.com/products/details/brass-record-weight
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You have weights and clamps.
More than likely you can put a weight on a table while spinning. A clamp you won't be able to unless you stop it. A big pain using it.
That F&R weight is over 1 lb pretty heavy don't drop it.
I would not go that heavy and also height has to be easy to grab again without dropping.
Lots out there and depends how it sounds. You can easily overdo it.
I use a 6 oz acrylic weight just enough to couple the vinyl to the acrylic platter.
Magnetic bearing here so no heavyweight .
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The VPI has developed a pretty serious hum. I know some is part for the course but this is very unpleasant. It seemed like it just started in the last day or so after adjusting the counter weight.
I've done the following to no avail:
Swapped RCA cables
Grounded to phono pre
Plugged into different wall socket
Move table about 5 ft away from all components and used diff outlet
It seems like I get the most noise when I touch the tone arm and the hum increases as I move the tone arm over the record. It's so finicky and static-y when I touch the tone arm, I wonder is something loosening there? All connections are snug on the cartridge.
I put the RP1 in just to see if I'm crazy and the RP1 has virtually no hum. My DAC and other inputs are dead quiet. The phono pre input is hum free until I plug in the VPI. Any suggestions are much appreciated!
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Yomaha, I'm not sure what to suggest here. I don't have so much experience with the Cliffwood. I assume you checked that the table is still grounded via the rear grounding screw? If so, does it get worse if you remove the grounding wire? Do you have a multimeter? If so, (carefully) check the continuity between the arm tube and the tonearm base. If you have continuity, try directly grounding the tonearm base to a known ground point and then see if this hum remains.
I'm just grabbing at straws here. :dunno:
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What did VPI say?
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Try moving the wires at the cartridge (toothpick?) and touching and not touching the tonearm.
Or use a meter on all those wires to check continuity. Has to be in the wiring somewhere.
Try a different system? Out of ideas here too.
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Thanks for all the suggestions here - much appreciated!
I have the table securely grounded to the preamp grounding post. The grounding wire does not have much effect. It helps a little bit, but nowhere near reasonable. I do not have a multimeter, but there may be one in my near future. When I touch the tonearm it gets worse. When I move the tonearm from the stand to over the record it gets worse.
I am going to try a ground lift plug. It seems I have more of the angry insect 120Hz buzz, and from what I've read, that should be indicative of a ground loop. I found a nifty resource here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GUqpgMxwj4
and here: https://www.psaudio.com/ps_how/how-to-find-and-fix-hum-extended/
I haven't called VPI yet. I want to see how far I can get before I do that.
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That's odd. You were not having this hum before? Did you plug the Cliffwood into a different outlet, or did something new get plugged in somewhere in your house?
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Ground lift adapter to the rescue! Woohoo! I picked one up for $.99 and plugged the VPI into it, and the hum is gone. IDK why it just seemed to come on strong after I adjusted the counter weight and added the ground wire. It's all good now though. And removing that noise really improved the imaging.
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Hey, that's good news Yomaha. It's a head scratcher, but at least you've got it resolved.
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Cool!
Ya got it. Ground loop somewhere.
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:thumb:
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Maybe this will help someone who is dealing with turntable ground loop buzz. For a while my buzz was fixed ala ground lift adapter. But for some reason, two days later the buzz was back with a vengeance. This was perplexing bc I literally had not changed a thing.
I started going thru the paces of checking my ground wire, interconnects, etc. Somehow, thru my building frustration, an idea appeared. I remembered from my previous life working in recording studios that dimmer switches were not looked up favorably. As a shot in the dark, I walked to the dimmer switch in our den, turned the light off, and poof! That was the end of the buzz. I went further and found that the dimmer in our adjoining dinner room also has an effect, though to a lesser degree.
Needless to say, I now enjoy my system while sitting in the dark.
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Dimmer switches! Of course! :duh: I had the same problem years ago and from that time on made sure they were never on during music listening. I should have remembered that. Good for you, Yomaha! :thumb: