wall mounts?

drphoto · « **on:** 17 Jun 2010, 04:16 am »

Do wall mounts really work? I mean walls vibrate too, but maybe less so than floors?

If I wanted to give it a shot would I need a dedicated turntable mount from Rega or Target? What about some nice heavy duty shelf brackets from the 'Depot, maybe dampened w/ some dynamat? My Rega P3 is very lightweight. I doubt if it weighs more than 7 kg.

I've got one of those Mapleshade platforms on the way that could be the actual shelf.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #1 on:** 17 Jun 2010, 05:38 am »

Info link....

neobop · « **Reply #2 on:** 17 Jun 2010, 10:43 pm »

IMO wall mounts are by far the best. If you have hardwood floors, they are indispensable. With concrete floors, you can use stands, but I still like wall mounts. You don't have to buy expensive "audiophile" ones. At Home Depot you'll find big Stanley brackets with a brace (around $30/pr). They might not be with the regular brackets, so look around or ask. You should mount them in a stud even if your deck is light. Normally studs are 16" apart. Use long wood screws. Mount 1 bracket and lay your shelf on top with a level on it. Hold the other bracket and move it until you can mark the holes where the shelf is level. After mounting the 2nd bracket, just lay your shelf on top. Don't bolt it down. No sorbothane is required. You can use 1/2" or 3/4" plywood, MDF or fancy shelf. I like good quality plywood.

You can try to get decent results with stands on hardwood floors, but it's usually an exercise in futility. That is, if you've ever heard a decent deck on a wall mount.

drphoto · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 Jun 2010, 10:55 pm »

Cool beans. Thanks brother.

Wayner · « **Reply #4 on:** 17 Jun 2010, 10:55 pm »

I made one for the garage, just because I didn't have enough table top room. It's not the greatest, but get's the job done.

Wayner

drphoto · « **Reply #5 on:** 17 Jun 2010, 11:40 pm »

I can't help but ask, but if wall mounts really work, and can be done on the cheap, why do people spend huge sums on iso devices for racks?

95Dyna · « **Reply #6 on:** 24 Jun 2010, 08:33 pm »

At the risk of exposing my ignorance, how do you all measure resonance that gets picked up by the stylus? It would seem logical that one would want to determine this precisely before spending alot of time and money mitigating a problem that might not exist or if it does it could be under your tolerance threshold. It seems to me placing a table on two different shelves and listening for sonic differences would add too large of a subjective component to any conclusion.

In my case I had no placement flexibility and had to place my TT on the top shelf of a large custom made solid oak cabinet. My floors are wood with thick carpet. I chose the VPI Classic because Harry Weisfeld has tested it sitting on a shelf next to a pair of 15" woofers and it manifested no measureable resonance. That said, I would be interested in your answers as I would like to determine myself whether Mr. Weisfeld is accurate in his claim.

Wayner · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 Jun 2010, 08:51 pm »

Don't over think the plumbing. No need to ponder too much on this topic. If you need to move your table because of vibration, it's usually because of foot-fall, be it weak floor joists or perhaps the audio rack has a slight wobble to it. If your worried about audio feed back, me thinks you listen to your music too loud or the table is way too close to the speakers, hence, the wall mount. Most walls are nice and sturdy and with a little home-made shelf and some lag bolts, you will be in business.

Wayner

drphoto · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 Jun 2010, 09:00 pm »

Oh come on Wayne, it can't be because I'm playing it too loud!

neobop · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 Jun 2010, 11:50 pm »

Quote from: 95Dyna on 24 Jun 2010, 08:33 pm

At the risk of exposing my ignorance, how do you all measure resonance that gets picked up by the stylus? It would seem logical that one would want to determine this precisely before spending alot of time and money mitigating a problem that might not exist or if it does it could be under your tolerance threshold. It seems to me placing a table on two different shelves and listening for sonic differences would add too large of a subjective component to any conclusion.

In my case I had no placement flexibility and had to place my TT on the top shelf of a large custom made solid oak cabinet. My floors are wood with thick carpet. I chose the VPI Classic because Harry Weisfeld has tested it sitting on a shelf next to a pair of 15" woofers and it manifested no measureable resonance. That said, I would be interested in your answers as I would like to determine myself whether Mr. Weisfeld is accurate in his claim.

I think that most people don't take any measurements to determine whether or not they need better or different support for their TT. This usually comes up when someone is having a problem, like footfalls making your cart jump or acoustic feedback. Of course there are some, who just want the best possible playback.

I'm confident that what I said previously about wall mounts (stud mounted, rather than lag bolts) holds true for everyone with wood floors, and most with concrete. Wood floors act like a spring and anyone with a suspended deck on top of a rack and with wood floors will experience problems. Non suspended decks are improved too. It seems to work best if the shelf is not bolted down on top of the brackets. It was explained to me, that for some reason the wall is not exposed to the physical vibrations the floor is, both from people moving about, and acoustic vibrations like bass. The vertical mounting of the brackets is supposed to dissipate energy better? Not bolting down the shelf is supposed to decouple the shelf from the brackets.

Not sure if all that makes sense. What I am sure of, after yrs of living with wood floors in various places, is that wall mounts really work. Because of the weight and stability of your deck, you might not experience the benefits that someone with a sprung deck would.
neo

sts9fan · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 Jun 2010, 11:58 pm »

Drphoto
While shelves are great I am not 100% convinced it will solve your issue.

drphoto · « **Reply #11 on:** 25 Jun 2010, 01:25 am »

How so? Ya know, my worry about going back to vinyl wasn't the 'click & pop'. I can live w/ that. And it has suprised me, even while waiting on a wet cleaner to arrive how much of a non issue surface noise has been.

But yeah, the dreaded low end feed back.

I have to say the Rega sounds really good for the most part. It is such a huge improvement over anything I've ever had when it comes to vinyl playback. But it has no isolation against low end noise. I can just tap on my rack and hear it through the speakers. Even w/ the new Isoblocks and maple platform.

Is the only answer a dedicated EQ device for the subs to 'notch out' the offending freq?

neobop · « **Reply #12 on:** 25 Jun 2010, 02:58 am »

Drphoto,
IMO you'd get much better performance if you could eliminate the feedback. Maybe on a side wall, away from the sub(s)?

Using an EQ is a band aid approach. It might require wiping out much of the bass, not just a notch. I think you really need to experiment with placement, even if you don't use a shelf. If you could get the feedback to a very low level, then I think you'll see at that point, a reduction in overall bass level will cure the problem. The EQ would be put to better use getting flat bass response in your room. It sounds awesome when you do that.

I'm just telling you what works for me with everything from sprung belt and direct drive TTs, to various unsprung DDs. I might have missed it, but I'm not aware of your room situation. One of my rooms is small. With a sub and even full range speakers, I have no problems with a wall bracket. In another larger room I can't put up a shelf because of wall construction. I have 2 light weight solid cherry end tables with spikes. They don't work nearly as well as the wall bracket.
BTW, what was that problem with the DL-160, a loose connection?

neo

rcag_ils · « **Reply #13 on:** 25 Jun 2010, 05:53 am »

I don't really understand the real theory behind turntable stands. My Lead Balloon is heavy, has spikes, lead bars and all. But if I kick it, the tonearm would still skip.

I don't have a wall stand, but I imagine if you bump into the wall when you are drunk, the wall stand would still wobble a bit.

So other than looking nice, and something to set your turntable on, other claims of the turntable stands function can be ignored.

neobop · « **Reply #14 on:** 25 Jun 2010, 12:02 pm »

Quote from: rcag_ils on 25 Jun 2010, 05:53 am

I don't really understand the real theory behind turntable stands. My Lead Balloon is heavy, has spikes, lead bars and all. But if I kick it, the tonearm would still skip.

I don't have a wall stand, but I imagine if you bump into the wall when you are drunk, the wall stand would still wobble a bit.

So other than looking nice, and something to set your turntable on, other claims of the turntable stands function can be ignored.

Just because you can defeat the function of any TT mounting scheme, if you really try, or get drunk, doesn't mean that it is of no use if you're not trying to defeat it or slamming into walls.

The Lead Balloon is a very good stand. With concrete floors it's probably hard to beat. It was not designed to withstand kicks.
neo

sts9fan · « **Reply #15 on:** 25 Jun 2010, 12:37 pm »

Quote

How so?

I get from your description that you are getting a pretty constant interference. I am doubtful that you have that much vibration constantly going through your floors. Maybe I misread your issue. I think most vibration sources are acute. As others have stated wall monts are used for foot falls etc. Thats not your issue correct?
I am using a very similar cart (DL110) with a pretty similar (P1) deck 10' from a GR servo sub on old crappy wooden floors. Big difference is my Pass DIY Pearl SS phono stage. My deck sits right on the stand with no real isolation. I guess the house is the big difference. That said my sub does freakout a bit but that can be solved with a rumble filter.

95Dyna · « **Reply #16 on:** 25 Jun 2010, 01:09 pm »

Quote from: neobop on 24 Jun 2010, 11:50 pm

I think that most people don't take any measurements to determine whether or not they need better or different support for their TT. This usually comes up when someone is having a problem, like footfalls making your cart jump or acoustic feedback. Of course there are some, who just want the best possible playback.

I'm confident that what I said previously about wall mounts (stud mounted, rather than lag bolts) holds true for everyone with wood floors, and most with concrete. Wood floors act like a spring and anyone with a suspended deck on top of a rack and with wood floors will experience problems. Non suspended decks are improved too. It seems to work best if the shelf is not bolted down on top of the brackets. It was explained to me, that for some reason the wall is not exposed to the physical vibrations the floor is, both from people moving about, and acoustic vibrations like bass. The vertical mounting of the brackets is supposed to dissipate energy better? Not bolting down the shelf is supposed to decouple the shelf from the brackets.

Not sure if all that makes sense. What I am sure of, after yrs of living with wood floors in various places, is that wall mounts really work. Because of the weight and stability of your deck, you might not experience the benefits that someone with a sprung deck would.
neo

Thanks for the input neobop. I was thinking the same thing that with the size and weight of the Classic and the substance of my cabinet (with everything on board it probably weighs in at near 800 lbs.) I'm not going to hear any improvement with a wall mount shelf or additional isolation products.

drphoto · « **Reply #17 on:** 25 Jun 2010, 03:41 pm »

neo, yes the issue I had w/ low end noise WITHOUT subs was a a loose tonearm wire.

I can run the subs up a bit harder with the isoblocks and maple plank than before.

I'm also realizing that I don't need to turn them up nearly as much as I do w/ my digital source to get satisfying bass levels. The detail retrieval from the vinyl (w/ good LP's) is pretty amazing.

I'm still gonna rig up a wall mount, as I can do it on the cheap, just to see.

neobop · « **Reply #18 on:** 26 Jun 2010, 12:27 am »

I don't want to harp on this, but I think it's really important. We all want to get the best out of our records. That's why people are still getting into vinyl or sticking with it. There are problems with bad TT placement, and it goes beyond solving a specific feedback or footfall situation.

Even if you don't need a subsonic filter to tame rumble, perhaps the sound you're getting could be more natural sounding, less smeared, more focused and image better. Beside the common sense no-no of placing your TT right in front of your spks or on top of a wobbly rack, there are steps you can take.

Some people live in an apt building or condo with concrete floors. That's where expensive stands like the Lead Balloon work best. For those with wood floors the wall bracket is it. Yrs ago TT mounts were tested in a mag, I think it was Audio. The conclusions were exactly what I'm telling you now.

Some people get good results from thick maple rigged up on cones and/or isolation pucks? Maybe, I don't know. I guess I could go to greater lengths in my room with the problem walls. But there is 1 good wall and it would make more sense to me to move an old 100 lb + TV and put up a wall bracket, then anything else.
neo

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #19 on:** 26 Jun 2010, 01:02 pm »

Quote from: drphoto on 25 Jun 2010, 01:25 am

I can just tap on my rack and hear it through the speakers. Even w/ the new Isoblocks and maple platform.

I don't think you'll ever get rid of that. It's par for the course.