First-time Vinyl rig

Airborn · « **Reply #20 on:** 18 Sep 2008, 12:35 am »

Thanks, John...I did put some thought into compiling my system and tried to get the best bang for the buck I could find. So far...so good.

I got the Cambridge 640P first and was floored by how much it improved playback over my old receiver's built in phono stage. Then I got the AT 440 MLa and again was surprised by the price vs. performance ratio, although nothing could beat the Shure V15 on the old Dual low mass tonearm. It wasn't until I got the Technics that the AT 440 MLa really started to shine.

I do have to say I am indebted to some of your posts and those of lcrim, wayner, etc. here at AC and some rantings by experienced vinyl zealots on the Asylum, AK, Audiogon, etc. regarding the Technics decks. I really do feel like spawn of Psychicanimal now.

Anyway, I already have a list of upgrades to try on the new SL-1210 (sick since its only 3 weeks old). I don't include the tonearm rewire since the SL-1210 M5G has upgraded wiring already and I don't think the outboard power supply and strobe disabler are on the list for now.

1. KAB tonearm fluid damper http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/m1200.htm;

2. Mapleshade 4" thick finished maple platform with Isoblocks http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/platforms.php, although maybe now I'll consider your Maple cutting board gal with some cut in half racquet balls underneath (the cutting board, not her)

;

3. Parts Express footer spikes http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=240-715;

4. KAB record clamp (the cheap rubber one with built in bubble level) http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/m1200.htm;

5. LP Gear Zupreme Headshell http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=LPGZHEAD&Category_Code=HEADSHELLS,
maybe with an AT-150 MLX attached to it

;

6. Way down the line I may try the SDS Isoplatmat w/a Herbies on top, but I am still not sure those are worth it over the stock rubber mat flipped upside-down

I figure this wish list should satisfy the upgrade urge for at least 6 months, maybe longer aa

The good news is I can save for all this stuff because I hardly listen to my 700+ cd's anymore except in the car and I have no desire to upgrade my digital playback until I get into something like the SB3, Transporter, etc. and rip all my cd's to my hard drive.

Vinyl truly is its own reward

2bigears · « **Reply #21 on:** 18 Sep 2008, 01:05 am »

a stock 1210 m5g is good outta the box.those mods will go far and worth the $$ . vinyl is way cool and sounds organic if i can use that word,but it is a PITA compared to cd play. have fun...

doug s. · « **Reply #22 on:** 18 Sep 2008, 11:05 am »

airborne, while i don't have experience w/modding a p/s for the sl1200, based upon my experience w/an origin-live dc motor kit on my oracle delphi, i would recommend upgrading your p/s. when i first got my o-l dc motor kit, it was a big improvement over the stock oracle motor. later, i upgraded the power supply - i used a mondo hewlett packard lab-grade power supply sourced off ebay for pennies on the dollar. the improvement was similar to the improvement of the o-l motor vs stock motor. you might be able to save a few dollars by sourcing a lab-grade power supply instead of the kabusa model, but it will likely be much larger, and i am not sure it would be worth the trouble in this case, as the kabusa p/s seems pretty reasonably priced...

doug s.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #23 on:** 18 Sep 2008, 02:03 pm »

Doug,

The lamentably absent Psychicanimal told me about the HP power supply as an upgrade to the KAB unit long ago...I considered it for quite a while, but the fact that I am no genius electrically/technically and had Kevin there to back me up in case of goofs was the deciding factor.

He also cooked up the power supply for me with wire nuts so no soldering was needed

The deck sounds more 'refined' now....but I'd have to put the thick maple block and brass toes underneath is as a better, and certainly more cost effective tweek for the Technics. If I had the stock arm, I'd think the silicone trough would rate over the motor.

(btw, I have little moca wood blocks under the maple block and that sounded the best...next best was Herbie's Big Fat Black Dots...which were horrendous under my speakers which is what they were made for originally)

Changing out from the stock (thicker) rubber mat to the Isoplatmat or EAR Isodamp sub-mat and Herbies top mat was not as useful on the Technics as it was with the JVC deck before it. The thick rubber underside of the Technics platter does a pretty good job of damping down platter resonances it seems

The stock rubber mat damps.....but rubber is a lousy interface for your records...at the very least turn it upside down so not as much rubber is in contact with the record itself to save money in the beginning. But, once you buy the Herbie's you'll know that there is more to mats than meets the eye (or robs the wallet, thereof)

The great thing is all of these upgrades (and a Isoplatmat submat, or similar, and Herbies top mat) on an SL-1210 M5G (like airborn has) won't set you back but $1200.00 and you can do it in methodical steps.

John

doug s. · « **Reply #24 on:** 18 Sep 2008, 02:19 pm »

tcg, if budget is an issue, you can get something like this, sometimes these sell ridiculously cheap, you yust need to be patient. they may actually be even better than the kabusa iteration. a bit bulkier, tho. this unit is 0-40v/0-5a. overkill for the technics...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160284260237

doug s.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #25 on:** 18 Sep 2008, 03:35 pm »

doug,

It quite possibly IS better (albeit more massive)...but I would have to get a tech to install it at $75 labor charge per hour to do it...negating some of the price advantage to it.

Performance betterment with it?...maybe. (I hope I'm not sick enough to have to find out

)

EDIT - actually I yust

realized that's probably not true. Now that I know where the hookup wires go in the Technics, using wire nuts, I can use this HP supply, too. Ohhh crap, my mind is spinning now in another tweek direction - ya' bum

John

doug s. · « **Reply #26 on:** 18 Sep 2008, 04:51 pm »

john, you're right - if you know where the kabusa wires go, it would be no problem to hook up a lab-grade p/s like the hp...

actually, tho, i wasn't recommending this as better than the kabusa, tho it might be - i was recommending it as a less-expensive alternative upgrade...

doug s.

Airborn · « **Reply #27 on:** 18 Sep 2008, 05:30 pm »

doug,
Thanks for the suggestion on the power supply. That HP unit sure would fail the WAF test at my place.

Here is what Kevin at KAB says about the technics power supply:

Quote

Sure, the 1200 is a great turntable. World class if you ask us. But there is always room for improvements. The power supply has always concerned me. Technics goes through great pains to make the transformer quiet. The laminations are braze welded, and the entire unit is encased in solid rubber, even wrapped with hi-silicon steel to contain EMI. Brand new they are very quiet. Over time however they can develop a buzz. Since the PS-1200 is external, all sources of mechanical and electrical interference are eliminated. The 'table plays quieter.

I read this to mean that the stock power supply is pretty well isolated, but over time noise may creep into the signal. I think at the level of resolution of my system, the order of upgrades should be: 1. KAB tonearm fluid damper, which everyone seems to say brings vast improvement; 2. Some additional vibration isolation, like Maple blocks, pointed brass footers, etc.; 3. Record clamp or weight of some type; 4. Better Headshell and cartridge; 5. Better mat/record interface. After those changes, I may consider the power supply upgrade, but I think even then I'd have to get a "pretty" one to satisfy she who must be obeyed.

lcrim · « **Reply #28 on:** 18 Sep 2008, 06:02 pm »

airborn:
The damping tray should be the first mod without a doubt. Lowering resonance is very important. I doubt that the record clamp does anything positive or negative, if searching for priorities it would remain low on the totem pole. The stock footers do a very good job as well as the stock plinth at damping vibrations. I realize that many feel this is essential but my experience is that it is a waste of time and effort.
I've never not had the external power supply so I can't comment on that. The Isoplatmat and the Herbie's Way Excellent combo was a not subtle improvement. The tonearm rewire to the Cardas was huge. I have large doubts about the efficacy of the aftermarket headshells as well, the stock headshell is aligned awfully well.
Actually, once you do the damping tray and arm rewire and get the PS outboard, a better phono section and cartridge made the most difference in my system.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #29 on:** 18 Sep 2008, 06:32 pm »

airborn,

Like Larry/lcrim, I've not found an instance where a center clamp has been very worthwhile

(outer clamps are, however, but tough to fit on the Technics)

Replacing the stock feet with brass toes pointed down into a thick maple block was terrific....personally, I'd make that #2 (after the damping trough).

The EAR Isoplatmat and Herbie's was a nice refinement...maybe just a bit less beneficial than the outboard power supply (noting that my Technics is ancient, beaten up and probably had motor coupling/hold down issues).

I'd put the damping trough and brass feet/maple block #1 and #2. Your cartridge is a pretty good one already and probably not worthwhile yet to upgrade until you do #1 and #2...and I've not found headshell swaps to matter (or headshell leads, frankly).

A dab of plast-i-clay to the underside/rear of a plastic or aluminum headshell seems to damp them nicely for a pittance.

Anyway, that's been my experience....hey, I really like spending your money

John

doug s. · « **Reply #30 on:** 18 Sep 2008, 06:43 pm »

i have had good experience w/clamps. the oracle requires one, but my prior table, a c&j walker cj55 benefited greatly from one, more than an after-market mat. of course, i tweaked the c&j by placing a wery thin insulation strip adjacent to the mat at its perimeter, slightly higher than the mat. this ever-so-slightly made the record concave when the clamp was tightened. the oracle's platter is ever-so-slightly concave from the factory; this really gets the record to clamp securely to the platter, & the difference is audible. also, when i tweaked my c&j in this manner, i was able to play a coupla warped records that were prewiously un-playable.

ymmv,

doug s.

Airborn · « **Reply #31 on:** 18 Sep 2008, 07:14 pm »

Larry, John and Doug,
I feel like I sidetracked the OP's thread for my upgrades, but I do appreciate the suggestions. Hopefully the OP will pick up a Technics sl1200 series and then he can benfit from all these suggestions as well.

For me, the KAB Tonearm fluid damper is no doubt essential and upgrade #1. After that, they all kind of fall into the catagory of possibly beneficial, but not essential. I tend to agree with John/TCG that a thick maple cutting board and some pointy footers may be the next most cost effective upgrade. And if it doesn't work, my wife gets a nice new cutting board

There hasn't been much difference that I can hear from record weights or clamps, but I need a center clamp for those slightly warped in the middle LPs and the KAB rubber one that grips the spindle seems like a cheap way to accomplish my goal.

I hear from Kevin that the 1210 M5G like I have doesn't benefit as much from the cardas re-wiring because it already has a better tonearm with upgraded OFC wiring. Plus then I'd have to buy another set of interconnects

I'm intrigued by the SDS Isoplatmat and the Herbies combo, but it's just too spendy for me right now. That SDS website demonstration on resonance damping is darned impressive though (shows a guy striking a metal sheet before and after the appliaction of SDS material and there is a LARGE difference).

And while I like the AT 440 MLa, I keep wondering how much better the AT 150 MLX is...or the Denon DL-160, or 103, or the Dynavector 10x 5, if I go MC...but then I need a new phono stage or step up transformer.....arrrruuugghhh...I think I need help

Steve

doug s. · « **Reply #32 on:** 18 Sep 2008, 07:35 pm »

Quote from: Airborn on 18 Sep 2008, 05:30 pm

doug,
Thanks for the suggestion on the power supply. That HP unit sure would fail the WAF test at my place. ... ...After those changes, I may consider the power supply upgrade, but I think even then I'd have to get a "pretty" one to satisfy she who must be obeyed.

what's so waf-unfriendly about a hp p/s?

doug s.

dmckean · « **Reply #33 on:** 28 Sep 2008, 04:22 am »

Airborn,

Your Cambridge 640p has a great MC section on it.

Airborn · « **Reply #34 on:** 28 Sep 2008, 04:58 am »

That's good to know since I've never used the MC stage. What cartridges have you used with the 640p? I read that the MC section didn't have enough gain for the LOMC like the Denon 103, hence my comment about a step up.

dmckean · « **Reply #35 on:** 28 Sep 2008, 06:36 am »

I used both the Denon DL103R and the Zu 103 with it for over 8 months before I finally built my Cinemag step up. It performed quite well for me and I still switch back and forth from time to time just to listen and make sure I like the Cinemag's better. My amplifer has a lot of wattage to spare though, if you're running a low wattage tube amp you might run into headroom issues.

hifitommy · « **Reply #36 on:** 2 Nov 2008, 07:50 pm »

and you COULD become addicted to the detachable headshell. my friend has a 1200 AND a nottingham spacedeck. he enjoys both for different reasons. the important thing is that you enjoy the music and have fun.

i once had a SL120 (armless 1200) with a grace 707 arm. eventually i progressed to a rabco st4 and much later after differing TTs, my sota sapphire/mmt combo of today. my interim vpi 19III/smeIV showed me that i MUST have a removable headshell for rapid cartridge changing (i have several mounted).

i also have a kenwood kd500 (similar to the 120-dd w/707). on that i shall mount the grace f9e cart and use the cardas cable i got last christmas.

as most dd TTs will experience speed probs, i had the 500 repaired to correct the prob. not cheap. a new bearing for the sota was 400, not cheap either.

i have enough vinyl to never have to buy again but of course, i do. also, lots of CDs, some music isnt available on LP like trilok gurtu or erik truffaz.

go forth and enjoy, whichever path you choose.