AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: nocrapman on 24 Aug 2016, 04:06 pm
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Hi Folks,
My first foray into the Vinyl world was not ideal - the Dual TT never played to a level that would make me keep spinning. I lost interest and gave it away. I kept my fairly substantial collection of mostly vintage records and have since collected more!
I need to buy a decent TT, Phonopre, and a cleaning device. the manual spin and clean got old fast.
I have been looking at the usual suspects from Project, Rega, Clearaudio etc. For this first setup (I am sure I will be upgrading within a year) I want something which is not too complicated to setup, has easy adjustments for usual parameters and does not break the bank. This will be the learning rig essentially. To prepare me for the real/nicer table in the future.
Please advise.
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I'm sure you'll get some good input on this. I can't really offer much as I'm using my 30 yr old Thorens TD160MkII which I pulled out of storage 6 or 7 years ago. Leveled it, plugged it in, and other than a belt change, still running like a top. And the sound is more than impressive. I have a couple of AVA pre-s, both with Frank's phono sections, which both sound good. That said he doesn't offer a stand-a-lone phono pre (as yet anyway).
I'm still using the manual spin RCM, but would hope to upgrade not too far down the road. Obviously VPI is a contender, and vinyl_lady likes her ultrasonic unit. If you have the budget most comments on those have been positive, simply a matter of $. Good luck in the hunt, wish I'd kept more of my original LP collection. :thumb:
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I recommend used ('course I'm cheap, ehm frugal)...so starting with old Stereophile and Absolute Sound recommended components reviews is not a bad way to go. You'll fine the big names--VPI, Rega, etc. as well as maybe a few boutique brands that were hot for a couple years--these can be relative bargains if they're simple and reliable (I still have my Well Tempered Reference Turntable I bought used and it's rock solid).
Same thing for phono stages--do a little research, get a feeling for the highly regarded brands and models (and possible pitfalls) and check out CL, Ebay, Audiogon, US Audiomart, etc. There is a lot to be said for buying turntables locally, as they can definitely be damaged if not packaged and shipped correctly.
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Take a look at George Merrill's PolyTable that Michael Fremer reviewed recently. The price is a bit more than bargain basement, but you get a Jelco tonearm and it is easy to adjust. If you want azimuth adjustment, Ortofon's LH4000 head shell is pretty nice. The Jelco will accommodate most cartridge choices and lets you swap carts quickly.
All of this is more expensive than a good used Rega but it might satisfy your need to tweak. Good luck on your search and keep us posted.
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That said he doesn't offer a stand-a-lone phono pre (as yet anyway).
http://www.avahifi.com/products/for-vinyl-lovers/vision-riaa-phono-preamplifier
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149050)
Right here.
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http://www.avahifi.com/products/for-vinyl-lovers/vision-riaa-phono-preamplifier
Right here.
Thanks for the correction Nightfall. :thumb: Hadn't checked the website in a bit, last thread I read he hadn't committed. Good news for all. :banana piano:
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How about the VPI Scout Jr? $1600, 10.5" arm, motor separated from the plinth, upgrade path to the Scout if you want more in the future.
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Thanks for the input till now guys.
I want to stay with something new/demo/closeout. Dont have the time for looking for a used deal.
Here are some of the contenders currently; pls help eliminate some:
Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC Esprit SB Turntable about $550
Pro-Ject RPM 3 Carbon Turntable with Blue Point No 2 about $900; with Sumiko Pearl about $700
Pro Ject Xtension 9 SuperPack Turntable with Blue Point Special EVO III Low Output about 2K
VPI Scout Jr. Turntable with Ortofon 2M Red Cartridge about 1600
Rega RP1 Turntable w/Performance Pack / Bias 2 cartridge about $445
Rega PL3 Planar 3 Turntable with Elys Cartridge about $1145.
GEM PolyTable With the Jelco SA-750E 10 inch tonearm about 1900
Clearaudio Concept Turntable with Concept MC about 2K
Any others I need to consider?
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How about the VPI Scout Jr? $1600, 10.5" arm, motor separated from the plinth, upgrade path to the Scout if you want more in the future.
I thought this shpped with the 9" tonearm stock?
Dont i have to go upto classic 1 to get the 10.5?
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I recently bought a Rega RP6 that I put my AT440mla on for 1500.00 and it sounds fantastic and is very solid.
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I had a Rega P3-24 with a Denon 103. Plus a no name record vac. and a carbon fiber brush. It sounded fantastic.
Virtually no surface noise even with mostly used vinyl. Like an idiot I sold it because I just didn't have time to sit an spin records. But I still wish I'd kept it.
It did tend pick up some low end rumble even w/ deck on brass points on a pretty good rack.
The Rega/Denon beat the crap out of my old Thorens TD-165 w/ Shure V15-4. I really don't think Thorens are all that great after hearing the Rega. Always wanted a Linn LP-12, but you have to take out a 2nd mortgage for those. The Rega's are pretty affordable.
It's a shame the Denon is out of production, but you can get a mod version from Zu. High output MC. wonderful.
At some point when I'm flush with cash, I'll probably get another Rega/Zu/Denon rig.
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Having heard many of the TTs on your list, I would say the Clearauduo Concept tops it if you're looking for a table / arm over $1k but under $2k. The Concept MM is not a bad cartridge to start with, but the Concept MC of course is in another league.
Good lower cost phono stages are the Clearaudio Nano ($350) and the Musical Surroundings Phonomena II+. ($750). The latter can certainly carry you upwards to better tables and carts as well.
I think pro-ject makes a great table for the money, but under $1k is their forte, with the carbon DC esprit you mention as the best bang for the buck. If you want to be under $1k, that's where I would go. Their phono stages (eg phono box s @ $200) is a good choice if you want something budget.
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...For this first setup (I am sure I will be upgrading within a year) I want something which is not too complicated to setup, has easy adjustments for usual parameters and does not break the bank. This will be the learning rig essentially. To prepare me for the real/nicer table in the future.
Please advise.
If you are going to upgrade the TT soon, I'd invest in a good phono preamp and a good RCM. I recently got a Transcendent Sound phono stage that is really great and it isn't terribly expensive. My friend recently bought an inexpensive U-turn turntable and it is surprisingly good and easily set up.
Just a thought since you can retain the RCM and preamp for your next TT upgrade without taking a big hit on selling the turntable later.
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I thought this shpped with the 9" tonearm stock?
Dont i have to go upto classic 1 to get the 10.5?
Sorry, that's right. Matt showed me a 10.5" arm that was identical except for the length and I mistakenly assumed it was also mounted on the Jr.
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Pro-ject has a good new RCM @ $500 which I find to be quicker and quieter than the equivalent VPI one. Theyre on backorder in the US now but when they become available it's a no brainier.
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Pro-ject has a good new RCM @ $500 which I find to be quicker and quieter than the equivalent VPI one. Theyre on backorder in the US now but when they become available it's a no brainier.
This is definitely on the short list. How much work is needed before/after the machine is done with its thing from your experience?
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If you are going to upgrade the TT soon, I'd invest in a good phono preamp and a good RCM. I recently got a Transcendent Sound phono stage that is really great and it isn't terribly expensive. My friend recently bought an inexpensive U-turn turntable and it is surprisingly good and easily set up.
Just a thought since you can retain the RCM and preamp for your next TT upgrade without taking a big hit on selling the turntable later.
I am definitely thinking the same.
This current purchase will not be sold. Will be using it in my living room. The next TT will be going to the listening area in the basement. Much easier to control noise/vibrations.
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I think pro-ject makes a great table for the money, but under $1k is their forte, with the carbon DC esprit you mention as the best bang for the buck. If you want to be under $1k, that's where I would go. Their phono stages (eg phono box s @ $200) is a good choice if you want something budget.
That eSpirit is pretty high on my list. Looks/WAF has to be high on this buy since this will be staying in the living room in a prominent location.
Otherwise the GEM polytable would have been a nobrainer.
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I have been eyeing the Parasound Halo Integrated Amp. It checks all the boxes for me and helps me simplify the Living Room system.
The only hold up is the Phono section. Is that good enough? Or will I need a dedicated Phono amp regardless?
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This is definitely on the short list. How much work is needed before/after the machine is done with its thing from your experience?
Same as equivalents from vpi, nitty gritty, etc. you'll still have to apply fluid and brush, but vacuum will take care of the clean up. If you don't do many cleanings fluid will usually evaporate in tank. Otherwise there's a spigot you put in, tilt, and empty.
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That eSpirit is pretty high on my list. Looks/WAF has to be high on this buy since this will be staying in the living room in a prominent location.
Otherwise the GEM polytable would have been a nobrainer.
Gem potty table has to be the LEAST WAF of your bunch..... :lol:
If she likes the whole Bmw Bauhaus thing the Concept will go over well. Otherwise the esprit in black is pretty "safe".
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I have been eyeing the Parasound Halo Integrated Amp. It checks all the boxes for me and helps me simplify the Living Room system.
The only hold up is the Phono section. Is that good enough? Or will I need a dedicated Phono amp regardless?
Unless you need / want lots of bells and whistles and power in one box, I'd look elsewhere for overall better sound quality. The zphono which is basically what's in the halo is just ok. If you were spending less than $200 on a phono stage, it's about as good as alternatives - bit "warmer", which is ok for cheap TTs systems, but won't scale up for better ones. I own a zphono among others, so some personal experience. I use it on my cheapest / brightest TT system.
I'd honestly get a nice Hegel H80 integrated or maybe an Arcam A39 for that kind of money. The Arcam internal phono stage is pretty decent. The H80 doesn't have one, but the $500 savings vs the Parasounds gets you plenty of good options way better than a zphono / internal halo one.
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Thanks for the input till now guys.
I want to stay with something new/demo/closeout. Dont have the time for looking for a used deal.
Here are some of the contenders currently; pls help eliminate some:
Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC Esprit SB Turntable about $550
Pro-Ject RPM 3 Carbon Turntable with Blue Point No 2 about $900; with Sumiko Pearl about $700
Pro Ject Xtension 9 SuperPack Turntable with Blue Point Special EVO III Low Output about 2K
VPI Scout Jr. Turntable with Ortofon 2M Red Cartridge about 1600
Rega RP1 Turntable w/Performance Pack / Bias 2 cartridge about $445
Rega PL3 Planar 3 Turntable with Elys Cartridge about $1145.
GEM PolyTable With the Jelco SA-750E 10 inch tonearm about 1900
Clearaudio Concept Turntable with Concept MC about 2K
Any others I need to consider?
The new Technics 1200G will be out soon ($2K). Worth looking into IMO. The 1200G is supposed to have most all the features of the $4K GAE which is being compared to tables like the VPI Prime.
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=vinyl&m=1137099
A speed controller for a belt drive will cost another 700 - $1K. Add an SDS to a Prime and you have a $5.2K table and arm. I don't think any of the tables on your list come close to the Prime.
neo
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I had a Rega P3-24 with a Denon 103. Plus a no name record vac. and a carbon fiber brush. It sounded fantastic.
Virtually no surface noise even with mostly used vinyl. Like an idiot I sold it because I just didn't have time to sit an spin records. But I still wish I'd kept it.
It did tend pick up some low end rumble even w/ deck on brass points on a pretty good rack.
The Rega/Denon beat the crap out of my old Thorens TD-165 w/ Shure V15-4. I really don't think Thorens are all that great after hearing the Rega. Always wanted a Linn LP-12, but you have to take out a 2nd mortgage for those. The Rega's are pretty affordable.
It's a shame the Denon is out of production, but you can get a mod version from Zu. High output MC. wonderful.
At some point when I'm flush with cash, I'll probably get another Rega/Zu/Denon rig.
The Zu 103 or 103R are not high output MC's. You'll need a SUT or phono stage with MC ( low output) capability.
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The new Technics 1200G will be out soon ($2K). Worth looking into IMO. The 1200G is supposed to have most all the features of the $4K GAE which is being compared to tables like the VPI Prime.
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=vinyl&m=1137099
A speed controller for a belt drive will cost another 700 - $1K. Add an SDS to a Prime and you have a $5.2K table and arm. I don't think any of the tables on your list come close to the Prime.
neo
Everything I have read says the 1200G is going to be the same price.....$4,000.
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Everything I have read says the 1200G is going to be the same price.....$4,000.
EEK, my bad. What was the limited edition all about? Testing the water?
neo
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Fast sales? A limited production of 1200 units, with a nifty gold and black label. I never did really understand the promo, but all the units sold in short order.
No big deal....BTW, I wish the price was $2k........
'ner
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Check out the Well Tempered line.
I picked up a demo close out of the Amadeus when the had an update for about $2k with full warranty.
There is also a Simplex entry level model.
Incredible PRAT and an incredible music maker.
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I think people are loosing focus of the initial concept which is
1. starter table - getting back into vinyl
2. LR placement means, good looks and easy operation (maybe wifey wants to play a record, do you want her touching your Kiseki needle after two glasses of Rose? I dont)
It is really easy to go WAY overboard (trust me, I did),
Save that for your basement system, it can have tweaks, fancy cables, isolation pucks, some table you have to start by hand because the motor is optimized for assistance, whatever.
But in the LR, let's go cheap, easy, works, etc.
I say the baseline Rega you mention, or Pro-Ject, with a SChiit Mani phono pre - awesome on the cheap.
top end-
how about the VPI Nomad, it has a built in phono pre, and it is ready for a cheap but awesome integrated (Nuprime IDA-8 new, or HEgel H80 used)
Anyhow, I just beg you to keep it simple and cheap. This isn't YOUR re-introduction to vinyl, that can happen in the man cave,
this is your wifes too, so you want her to like and use it.
I want to throw in a dark horse candidate,
I dont really care what it sounds like, I think I am buying this one for the wife to use, I LOVE it.
https://www.gramovox.com/products/floating-record#
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Audioguy:
Thanks for bringing back perspective to the discussion. I could not have explained it better.
I am to very much to blame by putting in a wide range of products on the list.
I forgot to mention the 3 and 6 yr olds running around. Although they have always been around A/V gear, know what not to do, and thankfully I have not had any issues.
But regardless I want this system to be Simple, uncomplicated, good looks .... you get the picture.
I might discard the integrated idea and keep looking for separates. I need a preamp with HT bypass, 12v trigger(in/out) and phono built in (ideally but can be a separate box).
The Gramovox is very interesting, but it seems like I will always be fighting gravity with it in many ways.
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Thanks to the discussion and advice, here are the updated contenders for the TT:
1. Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC Esprit SB Turntable ($550)
2. Rega PL3 Planar 3 Turntable with Elys 2 Cartridge (1K)
3. Clearaudio Concept Turntable with Concept MM (1.5K)
Mind says get the Project; Heart wants the Clearaudio.
Unfortunately I dont know much about the Rega. Where will I notice the difference between #1 and #3?
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http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PRRM3CAR
review:
http://hifipig.com/pro-ject-rpm3-carbon/
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Thanks to the discussion and advice, here are the updated contenders for the TT:
1. Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC Esprit SB Turntable ($550)
2. Rega PL3 Planar 3 Turntable with Elys 2 Cartridge (1K)
3. Clearaudio Concept Turntable with Concept MM (1.5K)
Mind says get the Project; Heart wants the Clearaudio.
Unfortunately I dont know much about the Rega. Where will I notice the difference between #1 and #3?
The rega planar 3 is more alike than different than the project. The concept is at a whole other level. Think Mercedes C class vs up trim VW Golf. Overall better fit and finish, refinement. You'll get more "information" out of the concept. Better "handling" as well with regards to timing / rythmn etc. You can adjust speed on Concept to get it perfect. Can't on the project. You can easily change / upgrade arm on the concept. Can't on the
project.
If you can afford the extra $1k for the concept, it's a no brainer.
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look at this http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=145167.0
and this http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=145168.0
you can't go wrong with both :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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That a tough choice between the Comet and the Concept as I am getting a good deal on a demo Concept at 1.2K
So I am left with these 2:
1. Clearaudio Concept Turntable with Concept MM (1.2K)
2. SOTA Comet with Rega 303 and Exact cart
Anyone have experience with both?
I am leaning to the Concept (based on looks/build alone).
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That a tough choice between the Comet and the Concept as I am getting a good deal on a demo Concept at 1.2K
So I am left with these 2:
1. Clearaudio Concept Turntable with Concept MM (1.2K)
2. SOTA Comet with Rega 303 and Exact cart
Anyone have experience with both?
I am leaning to the Concept (based on looks/build alone).
Clearaudio - Rega Exact cart is crap, and you are nocrapman! :lol:
Otherwise Comet / Rega 303 are decent, but vs Clearaudio kinda Lincoln vs Mercedes / BMW, if you get my drift.
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Get the most expensive VPI you can afford. There's a lot to be said for customer service and excellent engineering.
Doc
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what's your overall budget ?
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what's your overall budget ?
I dont have one... just trying to get bang for buck products and still save for the kids' college.
Since this will be a highly visible system with access to many hands, I am trying to get something reasonably priced.
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Get the most expensive VPI you can afford. There's a lot to be said for customer service and excellent engineering.
Doc
That was the original plan!
Was looking at a Classic 3 or the new prime.
But sense prevailed and I will save this for the mancave/basement rig.
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Clearaudio - Rega Exact cart is crap, and you are nocrapman! :lol:
Otherwise Comet / Rega 303 are decent, but vs Clearaudio kinda Lincoln vs Mercedes / BMW, if you get my drift.
Point taken!!
Of course now I am slipping and am tempted to upgrade to the concept MC which brings the price to 2K.
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70s vintage $250 TT through $120 Shiit Mani pre,
95% of the sound of my $8k TT, phono pre, etc.
The fun, the good sound, it is from the record,
please stop sweating the equipment (for the living room).
Get something that people will use and you will not cringe when they drop the needle.
If your 6 year old gets too close, you dont want to be "don't touch that!" dad, that dad is an a-hole.
You want to be "this is really cool, let me show you how this works, you hold here and that tiny little needle is going to 'read' tiny grooves here and..."
Please get something cheap and fun that your family will be encouraged to use.
In the man cave, go nuts!
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Point taken!!
Of course now I am slipping and am tempted to upgrade to the concept MC which brings the price to 2K.
I would take the demo offer w/ Concept MM @ $1200. That's a good deal @ 25% off. We usually would not offer more than 20% on a demo Clearaudio.
With any authorized Clearaudio dealer you can also trade in the Concept MM towards another CA cart, with trade in value up to $200 (for Maestro or Concept MC). So if you decide to go more upscale, your out almost nothing.
The Concept MM is a good cart - and when you've got a new TT in the house, the risk / probability that the first cart is going to suffer a mishap is high. As these are not replaceable styli - better to see what your fortunes are w/ a lower cost MM than a pricey MC at first. In any case it's always good practice to always use the stylus guard when not in use. And a cover is not a bad investment as well. The CA one is ok, but for a bit more I personally think the Ginko Audio one is worth the extra $.
There's also some contention at our store on the Concept MC. I personally think it's a good cart w/ excellent features / sound vs Concept MM for the money. Most of the other guys at the store have not warmed up to it. In some ways they prefer the more full bodied sound of the Concept MM.
Hope that helps!
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Thanks for all your help everyone.
The easy part is done.
Went with a demo Clearaudio Concept with MM.
Getting ready to order a phonoamp. Thinking about the Musical Surrounding Phenomena II+; will be tempted to upgrade that and should work with any cart.
Also debating between the VPI HW16.5 and the Pro-ject RCM. One has a proven track record, the other does not.
Any comments are welcome.
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Thanks to all the folks who chimed the rig is all set and playing well.
I like the build quality and playback from the Concept.
The MS Phenomena II+ is a gem. So much better than the build in phono stage in the receiver.
I was thinking of adding a record clamp.
Should I go with the clearaudio or another?
Do these heavy weights not affect the motor speed... slow it down?
Also what impedence and gain settings work best for this cart?
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The clearaudio concept clamp is obviously the best cosmetic match for your table. Nonetheless I find it to be very light, so I'm not sure if it's really doing much. The record weight from
Project is a pretty good value at under $100 and is a lot heavier.
As to whether it will make the table run slower, yes, if it has any substantial weight. You should be checking and revising the speed on your concept turntable though. One of the great things about that turntable is the ability to adjust and correct the speed ( with the speed adjustment pots at the back of the table ). There are free though somewhat crude turntable speed apps for Apple iPhones and android phones on their respective markets. What I like to use is a test record from Dr. Feickert that has a 3150 Hz test tone. You then download the free app called Platter Speed from the Apple App Store. With those two things you can very accurately measure your turntables speed and stability. This is what Michael Fremer and the stereophile guys use that you see in the magazine.
Of course a good dealer would have done this for you when you bought the turntable from them if you had them set it up. In any case these are still good tools to have for any higher-end turntable owner.
As for the impedance and gain settings you should use, these will depend on whether you bought the Concept MM or MC cartridge. For The MM, it's the same as for all MM cartridges, which is 40 DB gain and 47K loading. If you bought the MC cartridge, the gain should be at maximum, which is 60db on that phono stage, or all the dip switches in the up / on position. The recommended loading is about 100 ohms. The closest to that on that phono stage is 121 ohms. Nonetheless, some of my coworkers actually prefer a higher loading, in this case 1000 ohms. I suggest starting at 121, the try 243, 475 and 1k ohms and listen to see which one you like the best.
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Thank you so much!
You are always so helpful!
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A couple things you might want to consider:
You can get a laser tachometer for about $15 from Amazon. You put a piece of tape on the platter, aim the laser, and you get a digital readout of platter speed. They work great - very accurate.
A weight and a clamp are 2 different things. A clamp is designed to hold the record in place. Some clamps can "reflex" a record. This is putting a felt (usually) washer around the spindle under the record. When you clamp the outside of the label the down force can help flatten an LP. You also have the option of not using a felt washer and just holding the record in place.
Any weight or clamp will work in conjunction with your platter and mat and results vary.
You can replace the stylus on a Clearaudio MM to increase performance. [see AT95/Clearaudio thread] With that table I recommend an AT3472 series stylus. You have to cut away the excess plastic. Change VTF to 1.6g.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=53589)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61814)
http://www.lpgear.com/product/LPGATN3472SA.html
http://www.lpgear.com/product/LPGATNSERIESVL.html
Any questions - don't hesitate.
neo
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4mm Herbies mat, huge upgrade.
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A weight and a clamp are 2 different things. A clamp is designed to hold the record in place. Some clamps can "reflex" a record. This is putting a felt (usually) washer around the spindle under the record. When you clamp the outside of the label the down force can help flatten an LP. You also have the option of not using a felt washer and just holding the record in place.
Any weight or clamp will work in conjunction with your platter and mat and results vary.
You can replace the stylus on a Clearaudio MM to increase performance. [see AT95/Clearaudio thread] With that table I recommend an AT3472 series stylus. You have to cut away the excess plastic. Change VTF to 1.6g.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=53589)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61814)
http://www.lpgear.com/product/LPGATN3472SA.html
http://www.lpgear.com/product/LPGATNSERIESVL.html
Any questions - don't hesitate.
neo
Neo is of course correct that a clamp & weight are not the same thing. Clearaudio doesn't help things in that they call all their products a "clamp" when some are weights and other actually clamps. E.g. the "Concept Clamp" is actually a weight. The "Clever Clamp" is actually a pretty good clamp & shouldn't affect your speed.
Interesting about CA stylus swaps for AT ones. Doing the excess plastic removal thing would worry me a bit, but the stylus's are very reasonably priced.