AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: jsalk on 28 Jan 2011, 09:35 pm

Title: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: jsalk on 28 Jan 2011, 09:35 pm
I have used and built quite a few personal music servers over the years and have never been totally happy with the results.  While they worked, they were certainly never anything I would put in an audio rack or recommend to any friend not already a computer geek.

I am asked quite often about what I would recommend for music or video servers.  Based on my own experience, I certainly did not want to recommend the "roll your own" approach I've used in the past.  For example, my neighbor has 700 DVD's he wants on a server.  But his eyes glaze over when I mention ripping software.  Clearly this type of server would not work for him - too technical.

So last summer I started to think about building a music/video server to my specifications.  This meant using a fan-less case that looked like it belonged in a rack with other equipment.  I needed it to rip CD's and DVD's, get artwork, etc., with no user intervention and with no monitor or keyboard attached.  It needed to be 24/192 capable with extremely high quality audio performance.  It would need to work with Sonos, Squeezebox or it's own interface.  It would need to have DNLA capabilities, work as an ITunes server, etc., etc. etc.

While at RMAF last fall, I shared my wish list with Andrew from Vortexbox and while we are not quite finished, we now have a prototype up and running.

Here is a shot of the front faceplate...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42105)

The next step is to eliminate the drive door and go to a simple slot drive.

Here is a picture of the web interface...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42106)

So far, the unit works with no hitches.  Just for fun, I inserted a few DVD's the other night and they were automatically ripped with no problem.  I then fired up my Oppo BDP 93.  It found the server right off the bat and played the videos flawlessly.  Nice.

Now, I'm waiting for Apple to introduce their next generation IPad (my new remote).

Sometimes you just need a diversion...

- Jim
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: srb on 28 Jan 2011, 09:47 pm
Here is a shot of the front baffle...

Jim, with components, we call it a front panel, but since you're a speaker builder ..... I understand !  Keep us posted.
 
Steve
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: jsalk on 28 Jan 2011, 09:58 pm

Jim, with components, we call it a front panel, but since you're a speaker builder ..... I understand !  Keep us posted.
 
Steve

Steve -

Thanks.  Old habits die hard. I edited it.

- Jim
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: davidrs on 28 Jan 2011, 09:59 pm

Here is a shot of the front baffle...


Color me baffled!

BTW: Baffle: Noun - A flat plate that controls or directs the flow of fluid or energy.

Sounds much sexier than a 'panel.'


Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: MaxCast on 28 Jan 2011, 10:01 pm
Way to go, Jim.  Can't wait for more info to come out.  Until then I'm a little baffled.  :P
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: nyc_paramedic on 28 Jan 2011, 10:31 pm
Jim,

What's the output? S/PDIF or USB?
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: Saturn94 on 28 Jan 2011, 10:33 pm
Very nice.

Personally I would prefer a drawer rather than a slot.  Perhaps it's just me, but I'm always afraid those slot drives are going to damage/scratch my precious discs. :oops:
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: HerculePirate on 28 Jan 2011, 10:37 pm
I have loved this idea and have researched this issue earlier as well....
Though the 'iPAD' is the best remote I have to say that the price of this system including the iPAD blows it through the sky....
Yes it can be accessed through a computer
But I would love it there is an iPhone / iPod application ...... this would be best solution....
or also a RF remote that screens the playlist and browse the data through a device like the SONOS. To me the Slim Devices systems are VFM and the DUET is the best product out there....
Regards

HP
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: strat95 on 28 Jan 2011, 11:06 pm
Hi Jim,

Great to see you're expanding.  Best of luck.

Just a couple of questions about the unit.  Does it rip DVDs in ISO format?  Also, does it rip audio CDs in secure mode with error correction, much like Exact Audio Copy and dBpoweramp does?

If the unit could also rip Blu-ray audio (Blu-ray drive necessary of course) in high rez, like from Tom Petty's Blu-ray audio disc Damn The Torpedoes, or maybe even ripping audio from Blu-ray Concerts, that would be a real treat!

Cheers,

Ted


Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: jsalk on 29 Jan 2011, 12:48 am
HP -

I have loved this idea and have researched this issue earlier as well....
Though the 'iPAD' is the best remote I have to say that the price of this system including the iPAD blows it through the sky....
Yes it can be accessed through a computer
But I would love it there is an iPhone / iPod application ...... this would be best solution....

There is.  An Ipod or IPhone would work just fine.

Quote
or also a RF remote that screens the playlist and browse the data through a device like the SONOS.

No problem there. 

Quote
To me the Slim Devices systems are VFM and the DUET is the best product out there....


These would work just fine as well.  Take your pick.

- Jim
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: ratso on 29 Jan 2011, 01:26 am
i have a setup very similar to this - it is my only source i use. it consists of a vortexbox appliance (ripping box) upstairs by my computer that wirelessly streams music downstairs to my system through a squeezebox touch. the touch also acts as a digital display for cd artwork. when i saw jim at RMAF i saw him (and a lot of others) using an ipad as basically a remote - very nice. the main drawback to my setup (which isn't a huge loss) is the touch's cap of 96/24 files. i'm thinking hard about pitching the whole setup on agon and switching to this and an ipad.
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: jtwrace on 29 Jan 2011, 01:31 am
This is why the Alix has become so popular. 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=62364.0
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: Don_S on 29 Jan 2011, 01:40 am
Me too.  Jim, is there a particular reason you want to ditch the drawer?


Very nice.

Personally I would prefer a drawer rather than a slot.  Perhaps it's just me, but I'm always afraid those slot drives are going to damage/scratch my precious discs. :oops:
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: Barry_NJ on 29 Jan 2011, 01:59 am
Very nice.

Personally I would prefer a drawer rather than a slot.  Perhaps it's just me, but I'm always afraid those slot drives are going to damage/scratch my precious discs. :oops:
Me too.  Jim, is there a particular reason you want to ditch the drawer?



Add another Drawer > Slot vote!
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: catastrofe on 29 Jan 2011, 02:10 am
I can vouch for the usability of this product, as I received a Vortexbox demo unit from Andrew last October.  It's a great product and it's Linux based so it's easily upgraded.
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: mca on 29 Jan 2011, 04:50 am
I've been looking for something like this for DVD storage. Any idea on cost?
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: jimndre on 29 Jan 2011, 05:14 am
This looks really interesting.  When you rip a DVD, is the indexing intact or is it just one track?
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: martyo on 29 Jan 2011, 01:43 pm
Jim, you have my attention! 8)
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: jsalk on 29 Jan 2011, 05:19 pm
Ted -

Hi Jim,

Great to see you're expanding.  Best of luck.

Well, I have no idea if this will be a product we offer.  We are just playing at this point.  We will make that decision down the line.  We have more work to do and have to judge whether or not the market would justify putting it out as a product.  But we're having fun.

Quote
Just a couple of questions about the unit.  Does it rip DVDs in ISO format? 

Currently it rips them in an .mkv (Matroska Vido) container.  When ripping, it looks at the length of the tracks and eliminates shorter ones.  So it skips all the previews, etc. and gets right to the movie.  But, since it is a server, you could obviously use any ripper you want and simply move .iso files to it if you wanted ISO.  We willl continue to explore this.


Quote
Also, does it rip audio CDs in secure mode with error correction, much like Exact Audio Copy and dBpoweramp does?

I have used those programs and happen to love dBpoweramp.  Curently the unit does do extensive error correction and will attempt to correct for any errors caused by scratches in th media.  But if you prefer something like dBpoweramp, there is nothing to prevent you from ripping with it and moving the resulting files to the server.

Quote
If the unit could also rip Blu-ray audio (Blu-ray drive necessary of course) in high rez, like from Tom Petty's Blu-ray audio disc Damn The Torpedoes, or maybe even ripping audio from Blu-ray Concerts, that would be a real treat!

Currently it does not.  But there is nothing that prevents you from using something like BDDecryptor to handle the ripping and then move files to the server.  I need to do some more investigating, but I think there are legal issues here.

- Jim
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: Mudslide on 29 Jan 2011, 08:11 pm
This is not only a desirable device, but that's a pretty cool looking prototype, IMHO.  Go for it, Jim.

And oh yeah...another vote for the drawer.  Slot not.   :)
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: ctviggen on 29 Jan 2011, 09:40 pm

Currently it does not.  But there is nothing that prevents you from using something like BDDecryptor to handle the ripping and then move files to the server.  I need to do some more investigating, but I think there are legal issues here.

- Jim

Under the digital millennium copyright act, if you circumvent encryption technology, you've broken the law.  So, DVDs and Blurays are going to be problematic.   See, eg:

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-5128652-1.html

There are exemptions to this, but people copying DVDs for themselves likely don't fit into the exemptions. 
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: jsalk on 30 Jan 2011, 03:50 pm
I've been looking for something like this for DVD storage. Any idea on cost?

I would guess this iteration would run about $1800.  There are so many options available for building this type of system, the costs can vary greatly.  This is fanless, has high-end audio performance, etc.  With a less expensive case and fewer or less expensive options, one could be built for less.  This is very close to what I was looking for personally.

- Jim
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: Alexdad54 on 30 Jan 2011, 04:49 pm
I'm in for one if you ever decide to manufacture it!  :thumb: Sounds like it could combine the capabilities of my Briteview Cinematube 5005HD media server for video and my two music server rigs, one a W7 , the other a (soon to be finalized) Linux Voyage-based system.
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: Stercom on 30 Jan 2011, 05:38 pm
I'm in if you can make it happen. :notworthy:
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: Nuance on 31 Jan 2011, 06:33 pm
This is not only a desirable device, but that's a pretty cool looking prototype, IMHO.  Go for it, Jim.

And oh yeah...another vote for the drawer.  Slot not.   :)

Ditto!  I really hope this works out for you, Jim; what a great idea!
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: ratso on 31 Jan 2011, 07:07 pm
I would guess this iteration would run about $1800.  There are so many options available for building this type of system, the costs can vary greatly.  This is fanless, has high-end audio performance, etc.  With a less expensive case and fewer or less expensive options, one could be built for less.  This is very close to what I was looking for personally.

- Jim

sounds reasonable. if it's good enough for you, it's good enough for us. BTW as i go through my touch with vortexbox, i am strictly 2 channel. if you burn a dvd (i would assume dvd-a) to vortexbox, does it output in 5.1 sound or does it downsample to 2 channel?

p.s. not to hijack this thread but this has been bugging me lately. we have heard about your studio work, but i can't find what you played or what band(s) you were in?
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: jsalk on 31 Jan 2011, 07:54 pm
sounds reasonable. if it's good enough for you, it's good enough for us. BTW as i go through my touch with vortexbox, i am strictly 2 channel. if you burn a dvd (i would assume dvd-a) to vortexbox, does it output in 5.1 sound or does it downsample to 2 channel?

That is a very good question.  I'll have to do some investigation and get back to you.

Quote
p.s. not to hijack this thread but this has been bugging me lately. we have heard about your studio work, but i can't find what you played or what band(s) you were in?

I played guitar, bass, keyboards, trumpet and drums, mostly in R&B bands.  The last band I played with was called the "Hot Half Dozen."  We played mostly in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, North Dakota and South Dakota.  We were about the highest paid band in the region in the late '60's.  The band was inducted into the Midwest Rock and Country Hall of Fame about two years ago.  Great Fun.

Because we were all versatile musicians, we got calls to do quite a bit of studio work.  They could hire us and have just about any instrument available that they needed.  That got me interested in studios.

So I built my first studio in 1973 and spent about four years producing and engineering albums and radio jingles.  Then I moved on to the advertising agency business (more money), but continued to specialize in radio jingles and commercials.  For the next 30 years, I produced all kinds of music, audio and video at studios around the country.

After 9/11, things got really slow.  No one was spending money.  I had time on my hands, so I started building speakers.  Now I don't have time for much else.  And so it goes.

- Jim
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: alexcd on 1 Feb 2011, 03:41 am
I am familiar with MKV and have done all my DVD/BR rips in this format.  What bit rate are you using?  You would ideally maximize the available throughput of the network but wirelessly this is limited to less than DVD quality and you end up with this big fancy streaming machine with VHS looking video.  Of course audio is going to stream effortlessly.  Are you going to have hard wired gigabit ethernet?  Also, how much storage is built in?  How will that be scalable?  10GB per movie is realistic at high quality.
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: jsalk on 1 Feb 2011, 08:30 pm
alexcd -

I am familiar with MKV and have done all my DVD/BR rips in this format.  What bit rate are you using? 

Good question.  I will have to check into that.  This was built primarily as a music server.  But since a neighbor wanted to store DVD's, I started playing around with it for that application.  So I have only now started to explore the ripping capabilities where DVD's are concerned.  But since it is basically a server, you can obviously rip whatever you want, whatever way you want to do it and then just move the resulting file(s) to it.  No problem.

Quote
You would ideally maximize the available throughput of the network but wirelessly this is limited to less than DVD quality and you end up with this big fancy streaming machine with VHS looking video.  Of course audio is going to stream effortlessly.  Are you going to have hard wired gigabit ethernet?

You could certainly do this if required.  Not a problem.

Quote
Also, how much storage is built in?  How will that be scalable?  10GB per movie is realistic at high quality.

Well, 3TB drives are now available and the case holds two of them.  If 6TB is not enough, you could probably add  external drives.

I think for most people, a single 2TB drive is probably going to be plenty sufficient.

- Jim
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: alexcd on 1 Feb 2011, 08:44 pm
Specific things I'd look for is the capability for this server to maintain a high enough transfer rate to play high quality video rips.  I've done quite a bit of research and ended up with a pretty serious server to do this duty for myself.  Many NAS (network attached storage) boxes that offer DLNA server capabilities can't handle 20Mbit/s.  I would shoot for a number like that if are putting your name on this product.

You have your bases covered in terms of storage.  I think two drives is enough for anyone and 2TB are dirt cheap these days.  4.7GB/DVD and 11GB/BRrip = 217 DVD's or 93 BRrips per TB.  Nice!
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: ratso on 2 Feb 2011, 05:50 am
i emailed andrew at vortexbox and he said that the output of of dvd's is bit perfect so it will play in 5.1. he did mention that it does not rip dvd-a's or sacd's. what i didn't ask him is whether or not you can play those formats if you rip them yourself. ** edit ok so that won't work, i just poked around online a little. oh well, the oppo has that covered anyways. **  so i would think your box should have at least two outputs - one we can run to our surround sound AVR's and one that could hopefully carry 24/192 to an external dac (coax)?
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: rlee8394 on 9 Feb 2011, 10:32 pm
I've been looking for something like this for DVD storage. Any idea on cost?

Go for one of these:

http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/ (http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/)

A lot less expensive. Same thing without the flashy case and icons. Same server os, Vortexbox. Get more info and download the ISO here and make your own server! :thumb:
http://vortexbox.org/ (http://vortexbox.org/)

Ron


Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: ratso on 9 Feb 2011, 11:10 pm
of course you can get a VB appliance. the real big diff is that it's not a fanless device. it's not overly loud OTOH, so it's just a matter of whether or not you want that on your rack. i can hear mine from the other room when it's accessing it's drive and i think that would bother me if it was in the same room as my system.
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: rlee8394 on 16 Mar 2011, 01:54 am
of course you can get a VB appliance. the real big diff is that it's not a fanless device. it's not overly loud OTOH, so it's just a matter of whether or not you want that on your rack. i can hear mine from the other room when it's accessing it's drive and i think that would bother me if it was in the same room as my system.

It really doesn't matter. The server can be anywhere in the house. You're streaming the digital signal via Ethernet, wired or wireless. I built a system using a 60GB SSD, (4) 1 TB HDD for 2.7 TB storage, ThermalTake power supply that is very quite. It sits about ten feet from my system. Can't hear a thing, even when the room is quite. Real convenient to have all of your music and movies at the click of a remote! :thumb:

Ron
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: Nuance on 17 Mar 2011, 02:31 am
^ Very nice system build.  Did you go with one of the new sandy bridge CPU's?
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: rlee8394 on 17 Mar 2011, 07:09 am
No, I went with an AMD Athlon II X2 260 3.2 GHz processor and 4 GB RAM. More than enough power for ripping and serving up media. Also used a Blu-ray ROM so I could rip Blu-ray DVDs. The system boots very fast with the SSD. I'll probably use SSD for the system drive for all of my systems from here on out.

Ron
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: chip on 18 Mar 2011, 01:28 am
Which ssd did you get?

Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: rlee8394 on 18 Mar 2011, 03:51 am
Got this one from Newegg:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227542&nm_mc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel&cm_mmc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel-_-Content-_-text-_- (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227542&nm_mc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel&cm_mmc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel-_-Content-_-text-_-)

OCZ Agility 2 60GB

Ron
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: adydula on 18 Mar 2011, 03:59 pm
I have been doing solid state drives for 2 years now.
2 30gb in raid 0 for boot drive. 2 120gb in raid 0 for data.

Alex

Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: Nuance on 18 Mar 2011, 04:20 pm
Very nice, fellas, very nice. SSD is the way to go for boot IMO.  For data...well, I have just under 1TB of music now, so I have to stick with SATA.
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: jsalk on 18 Mar 2011, 05:18 pm
SSD's have a lot of merit where the operating system is concerned. The entire system just operates faster.  But for music storage, the drive only needs to be fast enough to serve up the music.  SATA is just fine for the music files themselves (unless, of course, you are going for a truly silent server of the fan-less variety).

- Jim
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: adydula on 19 Mar 2011, 09:52 pm
Nuance,

Sata is just fine for music storage. The only reason I have SSD's is for boot perfomance and loading games ...I hate waiting for a system to take several minutes to boot up. Also several games I like to play take a long time to load.

The boot OS I have in Raid 0 is again , 60gb. I only have Win7 on it and one of my hoggish loading games. Its more than enough in size for this, all the rest of my programs I use often are on the second Raid 0 of 240 gb.

I also in this system have a 1.5TB Sata drive for music and photograhs and a Win7 backup of the boot Raid 0.

I also have the music and photos copied to no less than 5 other sata drives in external enclousres and other pcs for security.


Alex
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: Nuance on 20 Mar 2011, 02:27 pm
Yup - I agree with you guys.  SATA is plenty fast for music streaming/storage.  I just meant I'd love to step up to SSD for boot and OS.  Hopefully soon. :)
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: Nels Ferre on 20 Mar 2011, 03:55 pm
SSD's have a lot of merit where the operating system is concerned. The entire system just operates faster.  But for music storage, the drive only needs to be fast enough to serve up the music.  SATA is just fine for the music files themselves (unless, of course, you are going for a truly silent server of the fan-less variety).

- Jim

Which brings up an interesting question:

The only issue is have with my Mac setup is iTunes loading time. It takes about 3 minutes for the spinning beach ball to sop so that I can listen to music. It worked perfectly until the library had 1100 or so CDs in it.

I realize that iTunes itself is just a database (the actual music files are stored on an external USB drive - with 2 additional back up drives as well that are not connected except to back up.) Given that, I can't see a reason why it is so darned slow.

Would switching to a SSD drive in my Mac Mini (2010 unibody 2.4 processor 8GB RAM) for the OS and applications improve this?  I don't really care about boot time, as it is acceptable, and the Mini is only rebooted for software updates. It is on 24/7 for weeks at  time.

Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: ctviggen on 20 Mar 2011, 05:27 pm
I have been doing solid state drives for 2 years now.
2 30gb in raid 0 for boot drive. 2 120gb in raid 0 for data.

Alex

120/240 gb for data?  If you're trying to hold DVDs (or videos or recorded TV), that's nowhere near enough.  Now, if you had a server/network attached storage, then having a smaller drive might work. 
Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: adydula on 20 Mar 2011, 07:11 pm
I don't have any music on the data ssd.  I have several
Programs like photoshop music editors games, and
Find 240 gb ok........again I use a large sata drive for flacs.

Ssds are still very expensive.

Its amazing on how little space you need. When you have a small finite storage size you have to watch what your intstalling etc...but having SSD's to boot and load certain apps from has saved tons of time for me. I dont think I could stand not having at least the boot drive be an SSD.

 



Alex

Title: Re: SalkStream first pass prototype
Post by: Nuance on 20 Mar 2011, 11:25 pm
Which brings up an interesting question:

The only issue is have with my Mac setup is iTunes loading time. It takes about 3 minutes for the spinning beach ball to sop so that I can listen to music. It worked perfectly until the library had 1100 or so CDs in it.

I realize that iTunes itself is just a database (the actual music files are stored on an external USB drive - with 2 additional back up drives as well that are not connected except to back up.) Given that, I can't see a reason why it is so darned slow.

Would switching to a SSD drive in my Mac Mini (2010 unibody 2.4 processor 8GB RAM) for the OS and applications improve this?  I don't really care about boot time, as it is acceptable, and the Mini is only rebooted for software updates. It is on 24/7 for weeks at  time.



Could your USB connection be limiting the access time?  Does the MAC have eSATA?  Perhaps it is just iTunes, but the faster the connection speed of the hard drive the better IMO.