6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in

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mfsoa

6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« on: 5 Feb 2016, 01:06 am »
I've been waiting for this for some months, teased by the listing in the "Coming up next from these writers" section.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/dac2/1.html

Overall I'd say a very positive review on the sonics and a but puzzling and over-reacting to the turn-on pop they experienced.

Myself, I have never had any such pop w/ my Maraschinos, either 48 or 60V. And once turned on, you never turn them off so what's the biggie? I guess if your preamp has a loud turn-on pop it could ba a problem. What time is it when your preamp has a loud turn-on pop? Time to get a new preamp  :lol:

You kinda have to read between the overly-artsy prose of the review but in several comparisons to their ncores it seems like the Maras had more of what I like - more and better bass, more immediacy and control of the treble. Indeed this what I clearly heared the one afternoon I spent with a pr of (48V) Maras and a pr of 5-figure ncores - The Maras were clearly the faster and tighter of the two, without sacrificing midrange tone. This speed - the sense that "holy shit I can't believe how much information was getting lost in my old amps" is what grabs me first w/ the Maras. Now, one may like to loose this information in their amps, and prefer the "smoother" presentation that another amp might give, that's not my call.

One small quibble - the power supplies are not 17 x 17 x 5" as you can see from the pics. I dig the black casework!

Congrats on another (mostly) fine review. I'd sure like to hear if others have a turn-on thump like they described...
-Mike


jseipp

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Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #1 on: 5 Feb 2016, 01:53 am »
Agreed, 6moons does require concentration.  On the other hand, I have learned a lot over time from reading the electronic details that Srajan especially applies to his reviews.  And the photographs alone are generally worth the visit.

Never a pop heard here.  I hear no noise at all, just spectacular music, made all the better in my system with the newly available 30V power supplies.


Thanks for the heads-up on the review!

OzarkTom

Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #2 on: 5 Feb 2016, 02:30 am »
Thanks Mike :D

These are the most quiet amps that I have ever owned in 40 years. My buddy Rex says the  same and he has owned well over 60 amps.

But Ncore users, do not read this review. :o

SteveMiller

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Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #3 on: 5 Feb 2016, 08:10 am »
I just didn't get this part....""That recording already fantastic in the humble Redbook format gained in presence—that is the correct word here—when we compared the nCore reading to the Maraschino version. Remarkable to say the least!" Remarkable in what way?  nCore or Maraschino?

I emailed Srajan....
 
"Since I didn't write this review, I couldn't possibly add anything. Given that M&H don't own production nCore but an early OEM demonstrator pair, I think they weren't too keen about getting into comparisons there. They'd not be representative of actual Mola Mola Kaluga amps. Still, I got the clear sense that the Maraschino had slightly heavier low bass and more sparkle on top. Beyond that, it's well feasible that two class D amps designed for superior specs—that would apply to both Tommy's and Bruno's—would sound far more alike than not. Relative to their Devialet, I understood that the Maraschino didn't suffer dynamic compression on their ESL and had far more headroom. As to more specifics, you'd have to email Marja & Henk directly. I wasn't there to hear anything. I just published what they submitted.
Srajan"

That in itself was nice to read.  I too have no issue with the startup.  I tried to catch the tiny pop is get over 100db speakers, but the iPhone video barely hear it.  The power switch itself is far more click than anything over the speakers!

Folsom

Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #4 on: 5 Feb 2016, 09:09 am »
I don't understand what the conclusion is on what they think?
« Last Edit: 5 Feb 2016, 04:42 pm by Folsom »

Srajan Ebaen

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Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #5 on: 5 Feb 2016, 09:41 am »
Re: the turn-on 'fart', I experienced that in my earlier review as well. It happened with the preamp already powered up and stabilized. M&H first used a passive preamp that's always 'on' (it's got no AC connection) and additionally uses attenuation transformers to pass zero DC. Still, turning Tommy's amps on created that 'fart' whereas other DC-coupled amps in my stable (FirstWatt, Goldmund/Job) turn on without any burp, ever, regardless of preamp - as do the nCores for them and as did nCore-based amps for me (Atsah). Obviously the audibility of this turn-on transient will vary with speaker sensitivity. At 100dB on M&H's Pnoe, it was loud enough that they had no wish to make it even louder on their 109dB Avantgardes where it would have been a real 'crack'. On their Polish Sounddeco with average sensitivity, that 'thump' was a lot lower. And yes, you could simply leave the amps on permanently and have the signal-sensing trigger wake them up. Then it will only happen once. Some people simply don't like to leave stuff on overnight. Plus, if your preamp does create turn-on transients or other noise until it stabilizes, proper protocol has you turn that on well before you turn the amps on. In which case you'd turn the amps on for each session. And with high-efficiency speakers, you may not want to hear a loud 'pop' each time you do. But as some commentators here noted, not everyone experiences the 'thump'. Since it happened to the three of us and for us was far from faint... we all simply had to mention it  :oops:

Presumably other DC-coupled amps use a speaker relay to avoid it? Again, if you own the Maraschinos and never experienced this, no worries  :lol:







AmpDesigner333

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Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #6 on: 5 Feb 2016, 02:30 pm »
I'll post more later, but no other reviewers (PFO, HifiZine, Tone Audio, Stereo Times) or customers (100s of amps, international) have had this problem with the Maraschino.

The Maraschinos simply amplify what they are given.  There is a one second turn on delay.  Instructions are provided simply explaining that the source must be active before power is applied to the amps.  This is common practice and stated merely for good measure.

I provided a long explanation to M&H of what the issue might be, but it was not included in the article, and in hindsight, it was overly verbose, so I can't blame them for leaving it out.  I was not informed until after the review was written.  I'm guessing some troubleshooting might have resolved the issue early.

As many of my friends know, I'm ultra sensitive to any such "complaints" as Digital Amp Co strives to deliver world class performance and functionality.  These amps are "my baby".

By the way, relays add to the signal path, which is especially offensive when large current is involved.

Overall, if you read between the lines in this review (which was beautifully written), you will see that the Maraschinos beat the competition in sonics, which is what matters.

Confirmation of this from Srajan here:
http://www.6moons.com/lettersfeedback/lettersfeedback.html
"....I got the clear sense that the Maraschino had slightly heavier low bass and more sparkle on top."

Thanks, everyone, for stepping up to "defend" what some say is the best sounding amp in the world today.
« Last Edit: 5 Feb 2016, 05:07 pm by AmpDesigner333 »

Srajan Ebaen

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Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #7 on: 5 Feb 2016, 03:45 pm »
If you feel the need to 'defend', you must feel attacked.  :nono:

Our two Maraschino reviews (first mine, now M&H's), aren't attacks. We enjoyed the sound. And, we each had the same lonely issue. Just because others didn't have it doesn't mean we made it up or imagined it!

This is the kind of overly sensitive response that acknowledge certain observations as constructive criticism and instead views them as personal attacks on one's 'baby'. And, they're 'explained' away as user error or implied to not exist because no other reviewers had the same issue.

What's more, if you see the need to 'beat' the competition and are happy only with a review that ends in one amp down and bloodied... well, then things get a bit silly. Except that's exactly what you seem to be after. "Overall, if you read between the lines... you will see that the Maraschinos beat the competition... which is what matters."

Damn, I didn't realize we were playing adolescents arguing whether Batman was badder than Superman.  :duh:




AmpDesigner333

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Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #8 on: 5 Feb 2016, 04:49 pm »
If you feel the need to 'defend', you must feel attacked.  :nono:
Srajan,

Nope, not feeling attacked at all  8)

I appreciate you taking the time to post on my board and realize how busy you are.

Glad you enjoyed the sound and hope you will consider reviews of our newer products such as the DAC DAC and Stereo Maraschino (formerly known as MINT Maraschino).

Thanks as always!

-Tommy O

OzarkTom

Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #9 on: 5 Feb 2016, 06:22 pm »
I, for one, would to see a Mint with a built-in Dac Dac. :thumb:

Get rid of the IC  coloration.

AmpDesigner333

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Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #10 on: 5 Feb 2016, 09:35 pm »
I, for one, would to see a Mint with a built-in Dac Dac. :thumb:

Get rid of the IC  coloration.
Definitely something we've been discussing.  So many product ideas, so little time....  Thanks.

maty

Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #11 on: 5 Feb 2016, 10:40 pm »
-> http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/dac2/4.html

Quote
Now we swapped the nCores for the Maraschinos and started the with/without procedure all over again. Playing the same 24/176.4 tracks at the same SPL, there was a bigger difference. It did appear that the Maraschinos offered the super tweeters more material to process. The resultant sound was more fluid and resolved. More analog perhaps? For some reason, the >50kHz frequency response of the Hypex nCore 1200 amps was challenged by the >85kHz reach of the Maraschinos. Either is relatively low compared to the animal kingdom where dogs hear up to 60kHz, mice to about 70kHz and bats beat them all at 200kHz. Just so, there apparently was extra signal sent to the super tweeters by the American mini amps.

With the yes/no phase behind us, we could get on with undisturbed listening. We played a wide variety of music and tried to put our fingers on the pulse behind the phenomenon of the more analog open presentation. After many discs and still more discs, we concluded that on purist recordings with a minimum of studio processing, extended frequency response offers more of what the Germans call Stoßwelle or shockwave. That is the impulse which leads any sound, its first attack. In live music, that attack makes the music come alive. Its absence betrays the fact that we deal with a recording. In many recordings however, that undulled attack is still part of the signal and not eroded by manipulation. It is then only a matter of retrieving said impulse. To us it appeared that wider frequency response—and perhaps 85kHz is just the beginning—enables superior retrieval of the attack information. [Goldmund for example talk of HF phase shift and that to avoid it requires bandwidth at least x 10 in excess of human bandwidth, i.e. 200kHz at minimum but many of their amps reach into the MHz band, a feat well beyond current class D. That argument isn't about hearing more information per se but more accurate reproduction of what occurs inside the ears' limited bandwidth - Ed.]

Class D with 85 kHz at -3dB: Maraschino and the very expensive Devialet (D200: 87kHz).

NCore, Nuforce and Nuprime: 50 kHz

Pascal: 60 kHz

ICE Power ASX series: 100, 120 and 130 kHz

Very new ICE Power IceEdge ???

AmpDesigner333

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Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #12 on: 5 Feb 2016, 11:56 pm »
-> http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/dac2/4.html

Class D with 85 kHz at -3dB: Maraschino and the very expensive Devialet (D200: 87kHz).

NCore, Nuforce and Nuprime: 50 kHz

Pascal: 60 kHz

ICE Power ASX series: 100, 120 and 130 kHz

Very new ICE Power IceEdge ???
The Maraschino is a proprietary design.  We don't use pre-fab modules, so we avoid the large markup.  The other Class-D amps out there also use gobs of feedback to extend response, and we don't.  This explains the "1990s ADCOM" type sound they typically have. Thanks.

Folsom

Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #13 on: 6 Feb 2016, 12:46 am »
If you feel the need to 'defend', you must feel attacked.  :nono:

Our two Maraschino reviews (first mine, now M&H's), aren't attacks. We enjoyed the sound. And, we each had the same lonely issue. Just because others didn't have it doesn't mean we made it up or imagined it!

This is the kind of overly sensitive response that acknowledge certain observations as constructive criticism and instead views them as personal attacks on one's 'baby'. And, they're 'explained' away as user error or implied to not exist because no other reviewers had the same issue.

What's more, if you see the need to 'beat' the competition and are happy only with a review that ends in one amp down and bloodied... well, then things get a bit silly. Except that's exactly what you seem to be after. "Overall, if you read between the lines... you will see that the Maraschinos beat the competition... which is what matters."

Damn, I didn't realize we were playing adolescents arguing whether Batman was badder than Superman.  :duh:

Srajan, it seems like you're both in a similar boat. You both wish to pipe-up to make things clear, and promote good conduct with the relations to your "babies" - your website, his amps. I don't think it's a challenge to see you're both invested. So why not be the bigger person and steer this towards constructive? I don't think getting after Tommy is anymore useful than him making odd comments.

First off the review is more like an introduction, since there's no conclusion of any kind. To a potential customer we're not sure what to think. It appears the turn on pop is such a big deal that effort for the review was just forfeited to the fact there's a flaw. But they don't directly say that. And then there's no mention of customer service being offered to fix or evaluate the situation. For future customers looking to get a review it doesn't look very encouraging.

Please don't think I'm here to defend Tommy. I came to read a review. I've also been a long time admirer of 6moon, and always thought it would be a huge deal if I was ever reviewed. But this is making me think twice. While I can't pretend to understand some of Tommy's approach to public interaction as a company, or even like some comments, I don't think this was done well. And when he's left fishing for a conclusion, and uses what he can out of the article (albeit a mild bit childish in form) you come and get on his case for it, with a protective clause. It looks like you both drew swords and decided to back away - save face.

I'd personally like to see better from both parties. None of this helps either of your patronage.

rajacat

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Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #14 on: 6 Feb 2016, 01:07 am »
Why can't vendors take a little criticism without reacting badly? It's supposed to be a review not an arm of the vendor's marketing strategy. Reviews should tell it like it is otherwise they'll lose credibility with their audience. Should defects in products be pointed out in an objective review? Of course. The manufacturer should use this criticism to improve his product. Its not the reviewers job to be a fanboy for any particular product or to be fishing for advertising money.
« Last Edit: 7 Feb 2016, 06:11 am by rajacat »

AmpDesigner333

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Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #15 on: 6 Feb 2016, 01:33 am »
Why can't vendors take a little criticism without reacting badly? It's supposed to be a review not an arm of the vendor's marketing strategy. Reviews should tell it like it is otherwise they'll lose their credibility with their audience. Should defects in products be pointed out in an objective review? Of course. The manufacturer should use this criticism to improve his product. Its not the reviewers job to be a fanboy for any particular product or to be fishing for advertising money.
Guess we're just accustomed to accolades (:  Thanks for your post.

G Georgopoulos

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Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #16 on: 6 Feb 2016, 01:56 am »
DAC has been getting popular , i see posts have been getting up,that's awesome success..

All The Best! Tommy

PS Srajan is awesome reviewer i have been reading 6moons for years and years


SteveMiller

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Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #17 on: 6 Feb 2016, 02:47 am »
As as avid readers of 6Moons and as proud customers of Tommy's we all really just want our happy little audio world to rotate as it always has.  We want comparisons, facts, and then the chance to compare notes within our own systems.  Sports fans are the same.  When we feel like one of our favorites has been dealt a bad call we vocalize that frustration. When the owner of the team has put so much time and effort into building it up feels his achievements aren't recognized or are dismissed he becomes frustrated.  Finally the event holder proclaims that the parties each had their showing and has to say take your lumps with your triumphs. 

Tommy and we his customers feel the startup noise issue really isn't one.  The reviewers perhaps having higher than normal sensitivity speakers heard what they heard. Srajan is arguably the ears many of us have trusted prior to many many purchases.  He did in fact mention his issue with the startup upon his own review some time ago.  I for one read past that and instead focussed on the positives of his review at the time and thus began my own discovery of Digital Amplifier Company's products. 

I think at the end of a long day in the sun, there in fact need to be no dead bodies amongst today's players.  I will continue to love my Maraschino's.  I will continue to be amazed by my DAC DAC. And I anxiously await my StereoMaraschino.  Because I know these products bring me the pleasure of ownership I could not find elsewhere in higher priced brands.  When I listen to Tommy's designs I am struck by the synergy they have in my system and to my ears. 

Much the same I will get up tomorrow and look to 6Moons for my next dose of interesting audio reviews.  I will depend on the reviews to tell the whole story, warts and all.  As consumers and digesters of these reviews we implore them not to forget the main purpose though.   Tell us what the product sounds like.  In today's battle that's where things could've been better.   We shouldn't have to sift through the dialogue to find the results.  We don't need you to declare a winner... No. We can decide that if you give us enough information. 

The focus on the noise issue ( as minor or non-issue as we may think it is ) probably exists because the meat of the review was weak.  There has been nothing but excessive coverage about nCore and Devialet in the press. It is frothing with regurgitated news on these.  Srajan to his credit has not followed the mainstream there. But In my eyes, a David has challenged this Goliath, and we were all rooting for him.  There is bound to be some outcry when the praise is faint, yet when parsed out from the surrounding noise, it is in fact proclamatory that Tommy has lofted a serious stone in the eye of a much larger more expensive opponent! 

Srajan, Tommy...  You are both respected professional voices in your fields and our Audiophile world is much richer for your involvement.  Be passionate and be true to your course,   The people that GET IT will seek you out and follow! 




jseipp

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Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #18 on: 6 Feb 2016, 03:12 am »
Steve, you have put my own thoughts into words far more elegantly than I could myself. 

I have long known and respected the work of both Srajan & 6moons and Tommy & Digital Audio Company, and have benefitted greatly from the commitment they have to the integrity of their respective roles in helping listeners find musical fulfillment.  For the two to function complementarily doesn't necessarily mean that they will always express things complimentarily, but I hope that the expression of appreciation of those of us who have and do gain fulfillment through their efforts is heard and felt by both.   

AmpDesigner333

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Re: 6moons King 60V Maraschino review is in
« Reply #19 on: 6 Feb 2016, 03:29 am »
Regarding DC on the input, the Maraschino has a protection mechanism which prevents the speaker from being damaged if there's too much DC coming out.