[DanielSmi]

Danny has done a lot to teach us about component quality in speaker and crossover design, how much of that knowledge translates into other components like power amps, preamps, and receivers?

I know that parts matter, as does circuit design/topology, but I don't really know what parts are best when it comes to power amps or preamps? We've seen from Danny's teardown of some expensive fancy brand name speakers that they'll include "cheesy" parts inside speakers that cost thousands of dollars. From watching all of the GR Research videos I'm able to identify poor-quality components in a speaker, I wish I could do the same for preamps. All I have is one brand's marketing brochure vs another brand's marketing brochure.

For example, I'm looking at stereo preamps right now I'm interested in offerings from Anthem, NAD, and Rotel, to pair with my Parasound Halo A23+ stereo amp. I'm looking in the $2000-$4000 price range. Rotel talks about component quality a lot (slit foil caps, dual toroidal custom-wound transformers), and their Michi line is supposed to be top-of-the-line stuff, at a good price. But is it really? IDK. The THD%, S/N, specs of Rotels $2000 preamp are almost the same as their $4000 preamp, what makes the $4000 preamp better, or is it mostly marketing and a fancy look case?.

I know passive speakers are relatively simple compared to preamps, and power amps and circuit topology probably play a bigger role so maybe it's not as simple as looking at the parts, but I was wondering if y'all had any guidance on this or possibly this could be a subject for a Youtube video.

[WGH]

...but I don't really know what parts are best when it comes to power amps or preamps?

No parts are the best, it's how they are implemented. Of the three brands you mention I would pick none. How did you pick these preamps? Features? Integrated DAC? Reviews? Cosmetics? You have 1000's of choices in your price range. Generally speaking, both a preamp and amp from the same manufacturer will have the best synergy. Mixing and matching is a non-stop hamster wheel.

Look inside a Van Alstine preamp and you won't find an exotic or boutique part, but if you listen instead of look then you discover it is one of the best. A lot of what makes a preamp sound excellent is the power supply. Is the unit grounded properly? Optimal layout won't show up in a parts count but can make a big difference.

AVA Fet Valve CFR preamp -
"The high voltage supplies are based around six active high voltage regulators, one for each tube section. This design takes supply noise and interaction down to nearly zero. In addition, there are separate regulated power supplies for the tube heaters and the headphone amplifier. Smoothing capacitors are carefully selected modern, high-reliability, high-capacity units.

"The main circuit board uses multiple isolated ground planes strategically interconnected to eliminate the effects of ground currents. A very quiet custom made shielded power transformer is used. "

Look up reviews for the HoloAudio Serene preamp. This is a true state-of-the-art design right in the middle of your budget.
https://www.kitsunehifi.com/product/holo-audio-serene-preamp/

In 3 week I will be posting my impressions of the Van Alstine DVA Digital Preamp ($2499). The DVA will be compared to my Fet Valve CFR preamp ($2099) that has Mullard and Genelax tubes.
The DVA has an integrated DAC which will be compared to the HoloAudio May KTE DAC ($5598). Yea, it's a tough crowd over here.

[NoahH]

Some makers will argue that you can get clever with circuit design and use cheaper parts. Some people will say they are right, some will say they are wrong.

Crossovers don't get to have clever designs, so the parts quality kinda always wins there.

The makers you cited are pretty mass-market, and that tends to mean they do cheaper parts almost out of requirement - it is hard to buy the exotic stuff in volume.

I would personally suggest you look at more boutique makers. Holo Audio, PrimaLuna, SimAudio, etc. I think they usually outperform when you are getting into those price ranges. There are exceptions that happen - ex. NAD often punches impressively high - but the boutique brands are often the best

[mlundy57]

Don’t really know much about the brands of parts in a preamp. Be wary of judging the performance of different makes and models based on the specs you mentioned. While important, they won’t tell you how a piece of equipment sounds.

In general, a more robust power supply will sound better as will a volume control that doesn’t lose resolution as it’s attenuated will sound better. But these are design issues so we are back to the importance of design and implementation.

To me, the most important things are the philosophy and reputation of the company building the product. Specifically, a philosophy of building great sounding products that last and providing great customer service after the sale.

In addition to what has already been mentioned, you might want to consider preamps from Schiit Audio and PS Audio. From Schiit, look at the Freya+. From PS Audio. The Stellar Gain Cell DAC and the BHK Signature preamp. The Freya+ and the BHK Signature are preamps while the Gain Cell DAC is both a preamp and DAC.

The Freya+ is $950, the Stellar Gain Cell DAC is $1,900, and the BHK is $6,600. PS Audio has a trade in program where they will give you credit for the full retail price of the gear you trade in up to 30% of the cost of what you are buying.

There are a lot of good options out there. Good luck with your search.

[DanielSmi]

Thanks for the replies.

The Holo Audio Spring 3 DAC looks nice, it even has HDMI.

My main 2 channel system is still connected to my TV so it's used for music and movies, so trying to find a quality preamp, with digital inputs, preferably HDMI has been difficult.

I've not heard about all these boutique brands but I'll check them out.

[NoahH]

That is not what you think. It uses HDMI to send a signal style called i2s. It is not what comes out of a video device.

In general, preamps don't have digital inputs. DACs do digital inputs. That particular device is a DAC with an integrated preamplifier (very unusual). The Serene is their pure preamp.

[mlundy57]

That is not what you think. It uses HDMI to send a signal style called i2s. It is not what comes out of a video device.

In general, preamps don't have digital inputs. DACs do digital inputs. That particular device is a DAC with an integrated preamplifier (very unusual). The Serene is their pure preamp.

The HDMI input on the PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC is the same. It is an I2S input via HDMI. This is for an I2S output from an SACD/CD transport or a streamer.

Only A/V receivers or preamp/processors (pre/pros) have HDMI video inputs. If you need video processing also, look into NAD, Emotiva, Marantz, Dennon, or ARCAM.

For example, I currently have a Marantz SR-7008 AVR in the living room system and an ARCAM AV40 pre/pro in my main system. Both systems are for music and TV/ movies but the emphasis is different. The living room system is mainly multi-channel sound for TV/movies with music second. Also, while sound quality is important, it is not at the same level as what I want from my main music system. In the main music system, the emphasis is on a high level of two channel sound quality with TV/ movies second. The two channel equipment in this system is all from PS Audio. Video and multi-channel audio are handled by an Amazon Fire TV streamer, an OPPO 105D, and the ARCAM AV40 pre/pro. The left and right main channel preamp outputs from the AV40 are connected to the PS Audio BHK preamp’s A/V by-pass input. This allows the front speakers to continue being powered by the two channel gear except that volume is controlled by the AV40 which is also controlling the volume for the surround and subwoofer channels.

The choice of equipment comes down to what you want the system to do.

[bfs21]

PM sent.

[WGH]

You probably need to use the optical Toslink TV output.

The Van Alstine Digital Preamp accepts the optical output from a TV

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=179297.msg1885015#msg1885015

"I simply go from the Digital Output optical port on my big LG smart TV to an optical input on our new Digital Preamp feeding two M225 amplifiers...Awesome sound on many uTube music channels."
[which is low-res sound quality]
 - Frank Van Alstine


The HoloAudio DAC/Preamp has optical too. The sound using Toslink will be OK but limited to 384 Kbits/second.



A dedicated AV preamp with eARC HDMI will have the best TV, Blu-ray, video streaming sound. The Anthem AVM 70 ($3799) will have the best world class TV sound.
I have the Anthem AVM 60 and the sound from video and Blu-ray is as good as anything I have heard in a theater, better in most cases.
But... as a stand alone preamp, compared to the AVA Fet Valve CFR preamp and my 10 year old DAC, it sucks.

[Folsom]

Do they matter? Yes.

But the thing is a lot of parts sound horrible, even many that are regarded for audio. There are certain ones like input capacitors where spending more can make a lot of sense to splurge. There are better quality resistors in very objective terms, that translate into audio quality.

There is voicing of an amplifier and not everything is going to work. I see people mod stuff successfully and fuck up their gear even more trying to change the equipment. Going by certain qualifications for quality in other settings is not an immediate qualifier for good sound. I'll give you an example, choosing higher temp rated capacitors is good for longevity in equipment but they might not sound right. (some sound good, others bad)

I use to think Panasonic FC/FM's were good choices based on what people said, used them a lot. Now I know better that they sound horrible. Thing is, in some equipment, they might sound more right than other things. The best sound won't come from them but that doesn't mean any particular piece of equipment is ready for a change I'd say is to a very good capacitor (for sound). Swapping in the "best" parts may not give you what you want. You have to design for it.

[WGH]

There are certain ones like input capacitors where spending more can make a lot of sense to splurge.

Some manufacturers have upgrade options that should be taken advantage of if budget permits. Hopefully they are measuring the upgrade caps so the sound is balanced in each channel.

But a hobbyist doesn't have the option to measure all the parts to find the best match. You need 4 caps, you buy 4 caps, tolerances be damned.

"Note that typically film capacitors have a 10 percent tolerance, so that 2.2 uF cap will actually be somewhere between 1.98 and 2.42 uF in value.  The real secret is to match the capacitors channel to channel so that both channels will have the same characteristics as closely as possible.  This will require a reasonable stockpile of the needed capacitors, and a capacitor meter to find matching values".
- Frank Van Alstine
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=111131.msg1148815#msg1148815

Poke around Partsconnexion and find that the Jupiter Bumblebee Aluminium Foil PIO Capacitor has a 10% tolerance, Solen caps are 5%, Mundoft Silver Oil is 3%.

When I auditioned the very well regarded PS Audio Stellar M1200 amp I noticed the AVA Vision SET 400 had better imaging with a solid, defined center image. I always read monoblocks did everything better. Many things could have effected my perception but my gut feeling was the amps were not perfectly matched. Since AVA is a small company that hand builds each piece I believe they take the time to match values between channels.

As Folsom says, changing caps will change the sound, but not necessarily in a good way.

[hogwild]

Are you sure you even need the gain?  Because if you don't, it might be much cheaper, easier and sound better to use a passive pre, which often have "no sound at all".

[genjamon]

But a hobbyist doesn't have the option to measure all the parts to find the best match. You need 4 caps, you buy 4 caps, tolerances be damned.

Poke around Partsconnexion and find that the Jupiter Bumblebee Aluminium Foil PIO Capacitor has a 10% tolerance, Solen caps are 5%, Mundoft Silver Oil is 3%.

You can often get the dealer to provide matching caps when you order for a modest upcharge.  I know VH Audio and Sonicraft do.  If Parts Connexion doesn't, that's a shame.  I've often gotten perfectly matched caps from VH Audio and pretty close with Sonicraft, often well closer than what they guarantee/advertise. 

But I second the recommendation to just get a good DAC with an extra optical input to connect to the TV.  No need at all to go with an HDMI connection for TV/movies.  Just make sure the DAC is optimized for whichever other input you use for main music listening and and gives you sonic bliss on that front.  If you're looking for HDMI connections designed to interface with a TV, you're pretty much limited to mass market receivers and integrateds. 

Finally, I'm a firm believer that the preamp is the heart of the system.  Not a place to skimp on quality or sonic preferences.  Not that DACs or amps are not very important.  It's ALL important!  It's just that I view the preamp as where the heart and soul of the system is created.  And thus I prefer a nice tube preamp, even if the rest of the system might be tubed or solid state, each with their different merits.  But I'm not sure I could do without tubes in the preamp.  I recently tried a really nice Bent AVC-1 autoformer passive pre, and while it had some nice attributes, my Don Sachs preamp walked all over it in clarity/realism along with that ineffable "soul," making the Bent sound in comparison more clinical and also like listening through a wool blanket. 

Don Sachs preamps are within your budget, by the way, and he uses very high parts quality and can tell you all about it.  Things like Mundorf electrolytic and film caps in the power supply, Duelund signal wiring, your choice of top quality output coupling caps, and a range of other tweaks.  Even if you don't buy from DS, investigating the steps he's gone to optimize his tube preamp would give you some good food for thought for your original question of what to look for in a high parts quality preamp.  Of course, the parts quality wouldn't matter much if he didn't start with an excellent circuit design.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

If Parts Connexion doesn't, that's a shame.

They do offer parts matching, for both caps and resistors.
https://www.partsconnexion.com/matchfee-res.html

[JLM]

Do you need a preamp?  I've run without one for years, being 100% digital.  If you have vinyl or tape you will need a preamp, but mostly a preamp is used for impedance matching (not really needed nowadays) or voicing (giving everything the same exaggerated sound). 

[Endo2112]

I'm in full agreement JLM, they mostly tailor the sound and that is not what i'm personally after. Below is a great interview with Bruno where he talks, near the end,~12.30 about the need for/or not for pre-amps, just a good watch from the start none the less.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcMsfSvgYEo

Cheers,

Don

[bobc47]

Both circuit topology and component quality are very important. Power supplies are critically important because anything wrong in that power supply is going to show up in the preamp output.
My current preamp is the Rogue RP5 (tubes) and they took great care with the component selection and they regulate the hell out of all stages and take great care with grounding. The results is very clean sound at a fair price especially if you can find one used like I did