Wyred4Sound DAC1 (final update)

golfugh · « **on:** 29 Sep 2010, 10:01 pm »

I've had the Wyred DAC1 in my system for a little over a month, problem was I was gone for 3 weeks of that... A lot of folks have discussed the DAC2, so I thought I'd give my initial assessment of the DAC1. I currently have about 200hrs on the DAC. Break-in is very similar to the Wyred STP-SE, same swings and changes. I'm not finished with that yet...

My system is on site.

I initially contacted EJ to order a DAC2. He asked me a few questions regarding source (Logitech Touch/Oppo BDP-83SE), etc. and I ended up with a DAC1. I didn't need the preamp functions of the DAC2, nor the HDMI (I2S) input, nor the 24/192 USB input. I would have liked to have had the AES/EBU input, but there you have it... I ordered the first DAC1 with a USB 24/96 input.

Here is what I have found as far as connectivity:

Coax - accepts up to 24/192 input (Oppo HDAD)
Toslink - accepts a 24/96 input (Touch and Oppo HDAD), it accepted a 24/192 signal a couple of times via the Oppo, but can not be depended upon for 24/192 input (as expected and noted in the manual)
USB - accepts a 24/96 input (not how I use it, but I tested it to see if it worked). I used a Dell 700M laptop running JR.

I've used the Coax and Toslink inputs from both the Touch and the Oppo. I prefer the coax from the Touch (Touch toslink is way bass heavy to me) It doesn't matter, as far as sound quality, from the Oppo. You only get a steady 24/192 signal lock via the coax out on the Oppo.

Music used:

CDs/FLAC rips (I ripped using DbPoweramp, hybrid SACD's noted - ripped the CD layer):

all of Jack Johnson's
Rounder - Raising Sand (Krauss/Plant); HD Tracks 24/96 download also
RCA - The Trinnity Session (Cowboy Junkies)
Vision - Acoustic Live (Nils Lofgren)
Stockfisch Records - Live at Stockfisch Studios (The Paperboys)
Sugar Hill - This Side/Nickel Creek (Nickel Creek)
Stockfisch Records - Closer to the Music Vol 1
Chesky - Audiophile Vocal Recordings
Mercury - Brothers in Arms (Dire Straits)
Opus 3 - Test CD 4
RCA Living Stereo - Saint-Saens Sy #3 (Boston Symphony/Munch)
Channel Classics - Mahler Sy #4 (Ivan Fischer)
Rocket - Tumbleweed Connection (Elton John)
Telarc - On the Other Side (The Tierney Sutton Band)
2L - several classical SACDs

Hi-rez albums

HD Tracks 24/96 Downloads (10) - mix of Jazz, classical, and Stevie Ray...
HDTT 24/96 Download - Holst, The Planets

Cables: Wireworld Glass Toslink, KCI Pegasus; the rest are in my system

Initial Impressions

Overall, this is a very neutral DAC. I have not heard any emphasis in the upper midrange, unless the recording emphasized such. It's overall sonics share similarities to the Oppo BDP-83SE. I've found less sibilance in the DAC1 vice the Oppo. Dynamics are it's strong point; bass is tight, midrange is extremely meaty with smooth highs. The DAC1 has many of the same virtues as the Wyred STP-SE. I prefer it to the Oppo for RB playback. It has bettered the PS Audio Digital Link III w/Cullen Lvl 4 mods I previously had - much better dynamics, much nicer overall musical presentation.

Overall, extremely nice DAC for the money spent... Hopefully, I can give a final assessment soon.

Thanks
Mark

Edit:

meaty = warm

I forgot the HDAD's

Classic - The Turn of a Friendly Card/I Robot (The Alan Parson's Project)

golfugh · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Oct 2010, 02:04 pm »

Update:

I now have at least 400hrs on the DAC1. I stand by my initial impressions in the first post. This is all IMO.

This is a very neutral DAC. It doesn't hide flawed (compressed) recordings, but lets what is recorded come through. If the recording is outstanding the sound is outstanding.

I do think that detail retrieval and dynamics are it's strong points. Bass is tight, midrange is warm and fluid, and highs are sharp without being sibilant. It shines on well recorded music and hi-rez!

I have tried to find the following: upper midrange emphasis, sibilance, and harshness as has been previously mentioned. I've used numerous RB and hi-rez rips in that attempt. I've tried several different cables (both balanced and single-ended) to see if the cables made a difference. The only cable type that had any hint of harshness was silver, and that was only on some recordings. If the recording is harsh, compressed, sibilant, or has upper midrange emphasis the DAC1 doesn't hide it. I will say the DAC1 is not the cause of it in my system.

There may be a synergy between the Wyred DAC1 and the STP-SE. It might play well with other Wyred components and not so well with non Wyred. I don't know.

Last note for this update: I have the blackest background on recording playback I've ever experienced since installing the DAC1. The music just flows!

Thanks
Mark

writeface · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Oct 2010, 02:21 pm »

"Last note for this update: I have the blackest background on recording playback I've ever experienced since installing the DAC1. The music just flows!"

+1

baumer · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Oct 2010, 02:45 pm »

Thanks for the update.

I only have around 50hrs. on my DAC2, so it's still in it's "early stages". I've read about this "sibilance issue" that is getting beaten like a dead horse around here, but haven't been able to reproduce it in my system.

You said, "It might play well with other Wyred components and not so well with non Wyred." That may be the case. I'm running mine with a Wyred ST-500 and although I don't have a lot of hi-fi experience, it is the smoothest, quietest system I've had.

I'm coming from a EL34 based integrated, and the thing I love about tubes, their lush natural sound, is carried over with my Wyred system. As an added bonus I get much tighter bass, more detail and better soundstage with the DAC. Not to mention the electric bills are lower!

Doug

highfilter · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 Oct 2010, 04:38 pm »

Nice write-up. I have the DAC-2 and to clear up the "sibilance issue", it has only really be talked about by 1 or 2 people in their select few systems and it mostly comes from them comparing it to other DACs (most at greater price points). Like others have said, it is very neutral and plays back what you are feeding it. So imperfections in recordings will present themselves if present. This isn't a super warm sounding DAC that will make crap recordings sound better, it really reveals great detail and doesn't mask recording issues.

I have it paired with a W4S STP-SE and it is indeed pitch black quiet.

Nice to hear the DAC-1 has the same characteristics as the DAC-2, and at that price point, it's a killer deal.

bhobba · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 Oct 2010, 05:42 pm »

Quote from: highfilter on 13 Oct 2010, 04:38 pm

Nice write-up. I have the DAC-2 and to clear up the "sibilance issue", it has only really be talked about by 1 or 2 people in their select few systems and it mostly comes from them comparing it to other DACs (most at greater price points).

Exactly. As probably the main culprit in airing this issue I noticed it at first in comparing it to a much more expensive reference DAC about which the following has been said:
'But let me say the things a beast ! I’ve spent time with a full DCS stack and I can tell you the Connor24 smacks it down simple as that. The 24 is a DCS stack with a velvet glove.'

But once noticed you hone in on it and can readily pick it - at least I can anyway.

It's like an issue I am finding with the Tranquility DAC - a slight trace of coldness. That was only picked up in comparison to another more expensive DAC - the PDX. I should not really be letting this out, but around here I think it will be OK since I don't think the people that may be upset by it will be reading this thread, but the PDX is still in its prototype stage and as a result of a recent round of tweaks is now above the previously mentioned reference DAC. This is a DAC to respect 100% for sure. Anyway now I have honed in on the coldness in the Tranquility I can now hear it in my system when not compared to the PDX. The more and more I hear it, just like the sibilance issue, the more and more I can hear it. This comparing stuff to much more expensive equipment can be a real enjoyment killer - but still a very educational experience.

Thanks
Bill

Bigfish · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Oct 2010, 11:42 pm »

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This comparing stuff to much more expensive equipment can be a real enjoyment killer - but still a very educational experience.

Bill:

I guess expensive gear does not always sound great but it seems most of the gear that delivers exceptional performance seems to be expensive. Also, I agree with you that evaluating expensive gear in your system with tend to expose its true potential and really lighten the wallet.

Ken

bhobba · « **Reply #7 on:** 14 Oct 2010, 12:01 am »

Quote from: Bigfish on 13 Oct 2010, 11:42 pm

I guess expensive gear does not always sound great but it seems most of the gear that delivers exceptional performance seems to be expensive. Also, I agree with you that evaluating expensive gear in your system with tend to expose its true potential and really lighten the wallet.

Yes it is a bit of a problem. Another is understanding exactly what you are hearing. I have been investigating the coldness issue in the Tranquility and what I did not realize at first was while the PDX sounds magnificent its 'hot' sound is characteristic of euphonic valve gear. In fact the coldness in the Tranquility is not an issue - it merely reflects it is very neutral. The real problem with the coldness is it being so neutral and revealing it may also be revealing some 'grunge' in the system.

I was just chatting (via email) to a friend who is reviewing the WFS and thinks he may award the WFS 4 stars. Well done.

Thanks
Bill

Stevo · « **Reply #8 on:** 18 Oct 2010, 02:53 am »

Thanks for the great write-up Mark. Interested if you or other owners have had the opportunity to compare the WFS DAC with and without the preamp connected. I'm presently using a WFS DAC-2 into active speakers (ATC50ASL), and have been using the DAC directly into the speakers for setup simplicity in a smaller room. But I've wondered how the unit compares sonically with/without a preamp introduced. (ie. wondering if an STP-SE would benefit the system).
Appreciate your observations.

Mariusz · « **Reply #9 on:** 18 Oct 2010, 06:03 am »

My Wyred II should arrive in a week or two. I'll definitely try both options.
However, from my experience with RWA HPA DAC and its variable output, preamp did changed the presentation for better. ( tube preamp ) YMMV

wilsynet · « **Reply #10 on:** 18 Oct 2010, 07:09 am »

I did not like the WFS DAC-2 direct to amplifier, possibly poor system synergy in my case as the Atma-sphere S-30 is known to be somewhat insensitive and is at the suggestion of its designer best paired with an active linestage.

Mariusz · « **Reply #11 on:** 18 Oct 2010, 07:28 am »

Quote

I did not like the WFS DAC-2 direct to amplifier, possibly poor system synergy

I doubt it. Especially in Wyred case - 32 bit digital volume. FWIW : "62 = 1V, 68 = 2V. For XLR, the 1, 2, 3 and 4V out equivalents are 56, 62, 65 and 68. These will be the values to use in fixed output mode when 70 max at 2.6/5.2V on RCA/XLR is too high for either the following preamp's input stage or a system's overall gain structure." - when used with dedicated preamp.

highfilter · « **Reply #12 on:** 18 Oct 2010, 07:42 am »

I have tried the DAC-2 as a pre-amp and while you probably could get by with it, having a dedicated pre-amp kicks it up a solid notch. I have the Wyred4Sound STP-SE and it really does take things to the next level with the STP-SE used rather than just the DAC.

By the way, using the STP-SE along side the DAC-2 is pitch black quiet. Very low-noise and pitch black background. Great combo for the cash.

bhobba · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Oct 2010, 08:09 am »

Quote from: Stevo on 18 Oct 2010, 02:53 am

Thanks for the great write-up Mark. Interested if you or other owners have had the opportunity to compare the WFS DAC with and without the preamp connected. I'm presently using a WFS DAC-2 into active speakers (ATC50ASL), and have been using the DAC directly into the speakers for setup simplicity in a smaller room. But I've wondered how the unit compares sonically with/without a preamp introduced. (ie. wondering if an STP-SE would benefit the system).
Appreciate your observations.

I tried it both ways - via a preamp and direct - could not detect any difference.

Thanks
Bill

bhobba · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Oct 2010, 08:16 am »

Quote from: Mariusz on 18 Oct 2010, 07:28 am

I doubt it. Especially in Wyred case - 32 bit digital volume. FWIW : "62 = 1V, 68 = 2V. For XLR, the 1, 2, 3 and 4V out equivalents are 56, 62, 65 and 68. These will be the values to use in fixed output mode when 70 max at 2.6/5.2V on RCA/XLR is too high for either the following preamp's input stage or a system's overall gain structure." - when used with dedicated preamp.

The issue with the WFS direct to an amp is the fact it has 100 ohm output impedance. For most amps that is fine but a few I know of may have a problem since they recommend something less than that eg ME amps recommend 10 ohms.

Thanks
Bill

wilsynet · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 Oct 2010, 11:17 am »

What preamps have 10 ohm output impedance?

Anyway, the DAC-2 direct to amp was not my cup of tea, and I would hazard to guess in my particular system would have been no one's cup of tea.

bhobba · « **Reply #16 on:** 18 Oct 2010, 12:26 pm »

Quote from: wilsynet on 18 Oct 2010, 11:17 am

What preamps have 10 ohm output impedance?

Some do. The matching pre amp for the ME amp did. Here is another one:
http://www.thehornshoppe.com/the_truth_pre_amp.html

Thanks
Bill

golfugh · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Nov 2010, 12:28 am »

Final update:

I currently have 600+ hours on the DAC. Everything I've said before I still stand behind for my system. If the recording is good the DAC1 is awesome. If the recording is bad, the DAC1 will let you know. I mention this with a caveat based on the settings available in the DAC1.

This is not a plug and play DAC.

Of note, I've messed with PCM rolloff and I2R bandwidth settings and have found they make a huge difference. Currently I have PCM rolloff to slow and I2R bandwidth setting at 60K. I continually go back and forth between a hard setting of 50k and 60k. If the recording itself leans toward the warm side I like 50K if the recording is way bright I lean toward 60k.

Here is what I can discern with a lot of listening (IMO):

- If you want a touch of warmth across the board - I set PCM rolloff slow and any setting for I2R other than <50K. As you go up the scale in bandwidth adjustments you get more warmth and less detail.

- If you want maximum detail and neutrality - I stay with factory presets of PCM rolloff of fast and I2R bandwidth of <50k.

- For all 24/96 or greater hi-rez recordings - I like PCM fast and either factory I2R bandwidth of <50k or hard set at 50k.

- If the recording is bad - I do not stay with factory settings, they will seriously emphasize the inherent "badness" in the recording. PCM rolloff is slow and I2R hard at 60k or higher.

- The perfect setting is truly system, source, recording and speaker dependent.

These are my subjective opinions, but it is a WAY nice DAC for the money with a lot of tweak-ability!

My major complaint:

Now if there was a remote that you could use to change settings on the fly....

Thanks
Mark

golfugh · « **Reply #18 on:** 18 Nov 2010, 12:34 am »

Full disclosure add-on:

The Wyred DAC1 is a nightmare as far as break-in is concerned. If you don't believe in break-in, sorry... Here's the rundown:

The DAC1 has the longest break-in period I've ever observed - 600+. I'm not kidding, it went through a lot of the swings that the STP-SE did, but worse.

Out of the box: Started boomy, huge over emphasis in the bass. Yet neutral through the midrange and highs.
About 100hrs: Settled down and sounded nice.
About 200hrs - 300hrs: Nice but a bit of sibilance.
About 300hrs - 400hrs: Nothing really to add. Sibilance is gone, nice and neutral overall presentation.
About 400hrs+ - 500hrs: It became shrill and damn near unlistenable - I was concerned. I even checked cables thinking I'd put the silvers in for some reason - nope, just the DAC.
About 500hrs - 600hrs: It started to settle - sounded kind of nice; but, limited dynamics. Bass was muddled, kind of sibilant.

Then I turned it off and was gone for 3 weeks. Came home and ran it for 24hrs straight muted.

Now about 600hrs+: Dynamics, detail with a touch of warmth. Way Nice!

I just wanted to add some additional thoughts!

Mark

bhobba · « **Reply #19 on:** 18 Nov 2010, 07:07 am »

Hi Mark

Thanks for posting that. It is quite possible some of the issues I had with the DAC may be related to break-in. Some of your comments were what I heard in the DAC. I have my DAC 2 now it is well broken in slated for another shootout against the Tranquility Signature, the PDX, and a few other DAC's as well as a reference for a review a friend is doing against Tranquility and PDX. We will see how it fares. It did not fare that well in the first shoot-out I had it in quite possibly due to the break-in issues you mention.

Thanks
Bill