AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: HAL on 24 Jan 2016, 10:08 pm
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Some of you know I had Ruben build two 6x12" modular H-Frame servo sub array flatpacks. Built them up awhile back and have been experimenting with two 2x12 arrays with the new HX800XLR3 servo amps. Those sound really good with either the OB BG planar setup or the X-LS speakers I have been using for listening.
Today finally started the second part of the build and removed the 12" servo subs from my Super-V's to build the next four 1x12 modules. Have the drivers mounted in the H-Frames and started making the wiring harnesses. Using 14awg stranded wire for both the driver and sense coils to the Speakon connectors. Keeping them as short as possible with an array this big.
Here is a picture of the two 4x12 arrays before the second set of drivers get wired.
Once I get them wired, will be testing with the speakers on stands as they are now to tall to use them as speaker stands. The locations in the room are ones I got from some modeling using CARA 2.2 a long time ago with other speakers. They should be a good place to start.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=135865)
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That's just obscene :o I'm so jealous. :green:
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LOL! :D
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Now that's a Man-cave. :lol: :green: 8)
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The Captain's mess... :lol:
But, what a nice mess that I woud like to have in my house.
Guy 13
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ohhh Rich, it's almost Christmas :lol:
If going from dual 12's triples is iany indication ( and I'm sure it is in some small way), the 6x12 stacks are going to build an incredible foundation of unbelievable clean bass.
jay
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That's just obscene :o I'm so jealous. :green:
This! :thumb:
You da Man, Rich! Keep us updated. I imagine this will be SOTA Bass if all goes well.
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I have been using the 6x12 servo towers for many months with a highly modified set of BG Radia 880's planar array
I will post pictures tmrw and more details
Kudos to Danny for an amazing set of subs that mesh seamlessly with incredibly fast planar speakers
There is a video done by AVS showrooms at Capital Audiofest under Sound Insight this past summer
Regards Steve
Sound Insight
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I have been using the 6x12 servo towers for many months with a highly modified set of BG Radia 880's planar array
I will post pictures tmrw and more details
Kudos to Danny for an amazing set of subs that mesh seamlessly with incredibly fast planar speakers
There is a video done by AVS showrooms at Capital Audiofest under Sound Insight this past summer
Regards Steve
Sound Insight
IIRC, you had the triples paired with the 880's and went to the 6 x 12's correct ? I know how effortless the triples sound in my buddy's room, I can only imagine the 6's :bber:
jay
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Correct we sold the triples and can be auditioned in S. Carolina
The 6 per side 12's can be heard at Sound Insight on Long Island with the modded. 880's featuring State Art crossover with Duelund Inductors cast copper Jupiter caps and Path Audioresistors
They are powered by the new Pass XA60.8 amps, Coincident Line Stage and K01x Sacd player
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Glad to hear the second pair of 6x12's cabinets Ruben made are up and running.
First 4x12 is wired and playing music. Working on the second today.
Setup is the MS-3 PC Music Server driving the dspMusik digital crossover to the HX800 amps and the first two ChipAmps for the X-LS speakers. Bypassing the filter section in the HX800's and doing all crossovers and time delays with the dspMusik.
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video is "Private" on AVS site so it doesn't play.
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Here a link to the video with 3x12 subwoofers per side https://youtu.be/td5J2bkjX_0. Zak
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The two 4x12 arrays are wired up. First is tested and running. The second is ready for testing.
Here they are fully stacked with the grills installed.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=135926)
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I thought the dual subs were heavy! How the heck do you move those? :weights: :weights:
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They are 1x12's stacked, so big movement is take apart the modules and reassemble. Each 1x12 has it's own connection to the servo amp via Speakon connectors.
The cabinet is pretty easy to move now even when stacked since it has a pretty wide base. Things will change when the last two drivers are installed on both sides.
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pretty Cool looking ,Rich
Gary
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I have to admit you have me seriously considering adding another dual 12 OB/Dipole sub per side to my system Hal. With the fantastic new H-frames made by Jay being 30" tall, a stacked pair will be 60", exactly the height of my loudspeakers. Cool!
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You 6x12 inchers per side guys, how are you driving them? Two A370's per channel?
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Using the Rythmik Audio HX800XLR3 servo amp in dual mode. Each pair of 12" drivers is on one amp. Each amp has two Hypex Class D amp modules at 400watts each.
Each Hypex module in the HX800 can run 3x12 16ohm drivers, so one amp will do each 6x12.
I wanted balanced inputs to work with the dspMusik digital crossover. The standard A370PEQ I have only has RCA inputs. Those stay with the Super-V's.
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Got both of the 4x12 array sections of the servo subs running.
Best bass I have ever had in my room for the system! No bass boom and lots of clean LF output. The room sound from the recorded venue is easily heard and adds to the experience for classical music. Rock drums sound very distinct and clean if recorded that way.
Hopefully soon I can order the last set of four 12" servo subs from Danny to complete it.
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Glad they are up and running Rich, bet they sound incredible. Cool stuff 8)
jay
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So a pair of dual-12 OB/Dipole subs comes in at around $2,000. $1500 for two Rythmik A370 plate amps and four woofers, and $500 for a pair of Jay's H-frames. H-frame finishing not included, and optional. Not exactly cheap, but for high-performance subs (perhaps THE highest-performing subs available, at any cost!) a bargain, in relative terms. Much cheaper than even a single JL Audio sub, for example.
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Thanks, HAL. I'm starting to get the bug.
Chuck
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The setup until I get the last four 12" drivers. Will have to get some speaker stands for the OB planar arrays.
The dspMusik is driving four ChipAmp 50 watt modules with DC coupled balanced inputs.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=136254)
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After setup and measurements, the two 4x12 OB H-Frames sound wonderful.
Played one of my favorite orchestral pieces with pipe organ, Reference Recordings Pomps Arthur Wills piece. Had the entire room bass energized, not boomy, but shaking! Oh yeah! :thumb:
Another fun piece is Mannheim Steamroller's Fresh Aire III Tocatta. The drums and synth are amazing! First heard this on a pair of Infinity IRS Reference III's in 1979. Got very close to that presentation and should be very close with the 6x12 arrays.
Cudos to Danny and Brian on the open baffle servo subs! :D
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THEY ARE DONE! :D
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=138766)
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WOW Hal,
That is soooooooo cool! Let us know all about the sound, I bet it is amazing in every way!
How tall are they Hal, under 10'? No, don't tell me it might be too temping.
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It is a wall of bass energy that is not boomy at all. Drums, pipe organs and other low frequency (read everything under 250Hz) has a physical presence that is missing in most bass systems to me.
They are about 7.5' tall and have the Rythmik HX800 for 800watts of Class D servo amps per side.
The flat packs captainhemo sells can be stacked to do 2x12 to 6x12 if you want. These are the 1x12 flat pack modules that Ruben made.
I am one happy camper! :thumb:
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Nice Rich :bowdown: :thumb:
jay
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Nice work HAL, congratulation.
I was wondering if instead of being six on a vertical line,
would it be better to have two three in vertical line, but side by side.
Would be more like a point source ????
Just asking, still great work.
Of course we are all riverted to our computer's monitor
to read what you think about the sound ?????
Guy 13
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Daaammm!!! You glutton ;-) ! I'm working towards two doubles per side, about 5' tall. That'll be enough for me---I'm only semi-gluttonous. I don't remember Rich---are the H-Frames attached to each other in any way?
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I have plastic C clamps holding the 1x12's together.
How do you describe a wall of bass, good to 10Hz?
I do not like point sources, so think the line array is a better concept. Good enough for IRS Reference V, good enough for me.
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Very nice Rich! Try to not knock the walls down and keep it under 120 db.
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SoCal,
Thanks!
I have to check and see. The 14" thick walls should take it! :D
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Insane!!!
What's next? Are you gonna paint them? Is that room the final resting place for them? How large is that room? And when does the cleaning lady get off vacation? :lol:
Also, tell us more about the monitors. Any plans to build a passive crossover?
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Looking at the tinted version of DuraTex to finish the sub cabinets. The room is 10'hx16'wx25'd and their home. Never will see a cleaning lady! :nono:
The monitors are the BG NEO3PDR and NEO10 planar open baffles that work with the dspMusik 2x8 digital crossover. No passive crossover can do all the things this can, including the time delay to match up the planar and sub wavefronts. No plan for any passive crossover ever again.
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Looking at the tinted version of DuraTex to finish the sub cabinets. The room is 10'hx16'wx25'd and their home. Never will see a cleaning lady! :nono:
The monitors are the BG NEO3PDR and NEO10 planar open baffles that work with the dspMusik 2x8 digital crossover. No passive crossover can do all the things this can, including the time delay to match up the planar and sub wavefronts. No plan for any passive crossover ever again.
PLEASE write a review!
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I take it your nearest neighbors are a couple of miles away :thumb:
Mike
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THEY ARE DONE! :D
And they're badass! If they aren't lust worthy, I don't know what is.
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HAL's better half: "can yo ujust move those upstairs honey ? " :duh:
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Jay,
We made an agreement that I have the basement for audio purposes. It is the audio Mad Scientist Lab! :thumb:
Early B.,
So far only Avoosl and myself have heard the setup. 007KLH has asked to listen to it and maybe he will do a review of the demo setup.
mlundy57,
The listening room has STC83 rated 14" walls on all four sides. The ceiling is 12" thick construction lumber I-beams. No air flow noise as well from HVAC. It is dead quiet and no sound really gets in or out once the solid core door is closed. I designed it for music listening! :D
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I'm one of Rich's neighbors - about 3 miles away - and I must report. I kid you not, I have been hearing low, bass-like thuds and booms lately at my house. It seems too far away to be from the HAL salon, and some might say they are the unaccountable sounds some have been hearing around the world, but I will go on record to say that those 6X12s are the most likely source. Increyable! Looking forward to their mating with a suitable mid-high line array. Stay tuned to this page for what promises to be the 21st century instantiation of the monstrous IRS Infinity memories of yesteryear.
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PLEASE write a review!
You know, Early B. is onto something. I know that you have heard the best of the best to compare to. What about a real 300 word review??? I know what that base module can do, but how does the rest of it integrate and sound?
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Scott,
Let me see what I can do. I think I do better as an EE than a writer. Harkens back memories of english classes. :o
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Now to the sound quality of the open baffle planar desktop mated to the 6x12 servo arrays. Music used to voice them started with Classical and Jazz recordings as follows:
Reference Recordings-Exotic Dances HRx
Reference Recordings-Crown Imperial HRx
Reference Recordings-Pomp & Pipes HDCD
Reference Recordings-Post Cards HDCD
Telarc- Fanfare For The Common Man -Aaron Copland
RCA Living Stereo – The Reiner Sound DSD
RCA Living Stereo – Beethoven Symphony 9, Fritz Reiner DSD
Dave Brubeck Quartet-Time Out CD
Julie London-Time For Love CD
Frank Sinatra –Various CD
Elvis Presley – for Avoosl CD
Mannheim Steamroller-Fresh Aire III CD
Rock and lots of it.
The first thing you notice is the sense of space around the instruments that I think of as the hallmark of open baffle speakers. Soundstage width and depth are very good and very dependent on the replay volume for the recording. No vocal sibilant emphasis on either female or male voices. Voices have body and room presence. This all helps suspend the sense of it being a recording.
The melding of the open baffle planars and H-Frame open baffle servo drivers are amazing. One important detail is to be able to time delay the planars to match up with the servo subs wavefront output. The one drawback is that mating a point source mid-tweeter array to the line array servo subs changes the sense of size of instruments. The good part is that the subs work up well into the vocal range to add some sense of scale to everything. You also have to be more on the sweet spot of the planars than a full line array.
After hearing the open baffle line array’s at Danny’s, it became obvious that some of the sense of ease of reproduction with line is missing with just the single planar midrange and tweeter. This takes away a small part of the overall reproduced experience, but not a huge part.
The servo subs are in a class by themselves. One thing about hearing a pipe organ in a large space is the sense of air movement. It comes from all over, not just one direction. The organ really is the venue. The organ low pedal notes from the Reference Recordings with the servo subs gives me that sensation at my listening chair. Does it give me the whole body resonance like the REFIII’s, no, but very good indeed. Drums are amazing in tracks like the Aaron Copeland. It creates the wall of sound the real instrument does in a large venue. Double bass has the growl and power you would hear in live settings out in the audience. It really is difficult to explain the sense of involvement when you have really good bass response. It all starts at the foundation and recordings with low frequency room noise are easily heard and felt.
Hope that gives everyone an idea of the sound quality of the open baffle planar desktop servo sub array setup in my listening room.
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Thanks for the write up... and much as I expected. Having heard what that bass setup can do, I'm not surprised at the sense of realism. Hopefully the BG drivers will be available someday. :thumb:
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Rich
extremely impressive looking, and I can't even imagine how great they sound; move over IRS !!!
Gary
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Rich, I couldn't agree more. Line source planars are IT for me. And with the OB/Dipole subs added, it don't get no better! I never owned the Infinity IRS, but did have the RS-1b' s, which had six 8" Servo-feedback workers per side and little individual Emid and Emit mid and tweeter drivers. I sold them when I got the GR OB' s!
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Well the next step is to try them out with the open baffle line array's with the FPS planars I have been working on.
Here is the point they are at today. Will be putting 8 FPS planars per side to go with the 6x12" servo subs. The rest of the planars to install arrive tomorrow.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=140550)
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One thing I really love about the open baffle H-Frame servo subs is the figure of 8 radiation pattern. Mine are setup so you can walk around them. When playing it is very easy to tell that there are nulls in the radiation pattern at 90 degrees to the front of the baffle.
Just happens that the null is pointed toward the sofa on the side wall of the room. Nobody gets pummeled by to much bass.
I ran MathAudio Room EQ on the setup and the bass accuracy with the 6x12" is absolutely amazing. This is a great pairing in my setup. My room is already acoustically treated, so this is the final tweaking of the LF end.
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Hal,
I'm really looking forward to seeing these bad boys together when they are finished. I was listening to music last night on my Super V's noticing just how good the bass really is, can only imagine what yours must sound like.
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I'm working towards making a second pair of OB Subs, stacking them on the ones I have now, for a 4-12 5ft. tall bass column per side flanking my 5 ft. tall planar speakers. A wall of sound!
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I suddenly have a new respect for you as your room is more cluttered than mine! lol
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Neatness is highly overrated! :lol:
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Had an interesting thing happen after building the 6x12" servo sub arrays.
One DCAudioDIY member suggested I should bring the servo sub array's to CAF2016. They had a standard size room, so really would not be able to test it's abilities. The 2x12's in those rooms are awesome.
They are moving CAF to November next year and there is a possibility of a mini-CAF this November. Will be watching for details, but if it is a larger room, will be getting the servo sub arrays finished and will think about taking them to the show to demo them.
Have figured out a way to clean up the wiring and still keep it easy to assemble/disassemble them to move. Will redo it when they get taken apart for finishing.
Will see what happens.
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8)
Have you made up your mind on paint yet Rich ?
We've used both sovent and water based paint on our MDF now and we haven't had an isse with either
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A friend works for a paint finishing company. He has a finish like Duratex called U-POL, that is tintable sold by the company. Comes as a kit.
Waiting on pricing and delivery time as I would need about 4 kits for coverage. Looking at a metallic blue color to see if it is possible. I just need to find the color I want. I kinda like the new Honda Civic SI medium metallic blue.
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I never got my OB subs to perform well. I THINK I did the wiring correctly. When I get back into audio (I haven't turned on big rig in 6+years) I will rip it out and start over. I have a pair of H-frames. 2 drivers in each with the Rythmik amps. Double wall MDF boxes. BH5 liners. But not real slam. Dunno.
I know I had the wiring diagram on my old Mac Pro that died. I must have asked Danny for it a couple of times. If anyone has, please post, as I had to get new computer. Someday, I will salvage drive from the old one, but double shifts at work sort of kill my desire to do anything at home but screw around on the net and watch crap on netfilx.
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Here you go Joe.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=147463)
Best,
Ed
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thanks ed. look forward to hearing your rig. I only know one other guy who's into this stuff.
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Here is my tip for wiring the drivers.
At the amp end, wire both set of drivers as if the are both front firing. This means the drivers are in parallel red to red, black to black. Wire the servo wires in series with one red and black wires from the pair connected together.
Wire the forward pairs as normal. Wire the reverse pair with all the wires colors swapped. When you get to wire 12 of them, you look for a simple visual method and it works.
Give that a try if needed.
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cool Hal. That works for me. Thanks. I really hope the wiring is the issue, because I was drooling when I read all the reviews, then I got and was like 'what?'. If I go back to Maggies, I think the bass as described would be perfect. My old Maggies got stand up bass on jazz flat out right. Better than anything else I ever heard. But they had no 'slam' on rock stuff. And I like to rock out. I have no neighbors except weekends (B&B next door) I'll play the Chile Peppers or Floyd, etc at the limits of speakers sometimes if I want. (hey not all the time. I have a part, part time job as a front of house mix man. I value my hearing. I'm good at it because I can still hear. Plenty of guys with more tech know how in town, but they're all half deaf. :evil:)
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possibly even easier for duals with one forward facing woofer, one rearward facing woofer :
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=147467)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=147468)
jay
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nice. that look like even an idiot like me can follow. :wink:
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Nice Jay, that should help anyone who has a question. Of course now everyone is mounting them in the same direction :dunno:
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Not everyone is facing them forward, so we are here for the ones that do not.
Had a pair of 2x12 OB H-Frame opposing driver servo subs at CAF in the demo room and they were again the best bass I heard at the show.
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Not everyone is facing them forward, so we are here for the ones that do not.
Had a pair of 2x12 OB H-Frame opposing driver servo subs at CAF in the demo room and they were again the best bass I heard at the show.
Except for Steve's (Audio Insidght), you guys could have had an interesting shootout :lol:
Nice Jay, that should help anyone who has a question. Of course now everyone is mounting them in the same direction :dunno:
Greg, I've got a crude pair like those for the triples too, I'll post them all over in the flat pack thread ,. I've posted them in other threads previously but can't remember which ones :scratch:
jay
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Not everyone is facing them forward, so we are here for the ones that do not.
Had a pair of 2x12 OB H-Frame opposing driver servo subs at CAF in the demo room and they were again the best bass I heard at the show.
I know Hal, just messing with Jay. I do own a pair of super Vs and had to wire them up in reverse.
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cool Hal. That works for me. Thanks. I really hope the wiring is the issue, because I was drooling when I read all the reviews, then I got and was like 'what?'. If I go back to Maggies, I think the bass as described would be perfect. My old Maggies got stand up bass on jazz flat out right. Better than anything else I ever heard. But they had no 'slam' on rock stuff. And I like to rock out. I have no neighbors except weekends (B&B next door) I'll play the Chile Peppers or Floyd, etc at the limits of speakers sometimes if I want. (hey not all the time. I have a part, part time job as a front of house mix man. I value my hearing. I'm good at it because I can still hear. Plenty of guys with more tech know how in town, but they're all half deaf. :evil:)
If they are not wired properly it will definitely make a difference. If you have one driver facing forward and one rearward and forget to reverse the polarity on the driver coils the drivers will cancel each other out and you will have almost no output (three guesses as to how I know that and the first two don't count :oops:).
If you get the servo coils wired wrong you won't have much low frequency extension or be able to handle much power before the drivers bottom out (Yeah, done that too :nono:).
Mike
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Except for Steve's (Audio Insidght), you guys could have had an interesting shootout :lol:
Greg, I've got a crude pair like those for the triples too, I'll post them all over in the flat pack thread ,. I've posted them in other threads previously but can't remember which ones :scratch:
jay
Those were Steve's 2x12's. They have opposing drivers. They are also $6000/pair.
He finally got his 6x12's working. Those were not at the show.
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Those were Steve's 2x12's. They have opposing drivers. They are also $6000/pair.
He finally got his 6x12's working. Those were not at the show.
I know , we sent him the cabinets for the 2 x 12's :)
I thought you were saying you had another pair there, hence my "joke" about you guys having a shootout !
jay
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I thought the cabinets looked familiar. :D
No, I just supplied the entire HiRez digital front end for the room and completely crushed the highly modified CD transport! :)
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No, I just supplied the entire HiRez digital front end for the room and completely crushed the highly modified CD transport! :)
8)
We still want to get one of the new MS-3 ? 's up here and give it a try at some point
jay
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The MS-3 demo unit is available if you want to give it a try.
What is better is trying the MS-3 with the dspMusik. That was the CAF2016 setup that had folks jumping in their chairs! I love good pipe organ music, and the RR Pomps&Pipes CD track Arthur Wills, The Vikings is the thing to try. Just watch your volume level! :o :thumb: