AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Lab => Topic started by: Freo-1 on 22 Oct 2023, 12:30 am
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The accepted belief in audio has been that the best performance is obtained by separate components. The advantage of separate components are that upgrades can be achieved via piecemeal. Changing out one box at a time made it easy to tell what the upgrade offered. The separate components approach is thought to provide better performance due to the fact that each box is optimized for it's specific function. However, there's also a down side to the separate component approach.
The largest downside is that all these separate components have to be connected via cables. Let's be honest here: Cables cannot ADD any improvement to a given setup. It can only REDUCE the transfer function loss form one component to another. Audiophiles can pay thousands of dollars on these cables that cannot improve performance. They at best, can only reduce the transfer function loss. Another potential downside is that the separate components may not be fully optimized to work within the system as a whole.
The legacy thinking is that an all in one component solution was a "lifestyle choice". The overall system's performance would be compromised in order to achieve convenience. That may have been true in the past, but no more.
I would argue some of the absolute best sonic performance is achieved by current state of the art integrated solutions. The Devialet Expert Pro products actually have better performance specifications than any comparable separate component setup. There are valid reasons why this is so:
-The DAC/Phono/Streaming input options are optimized to work with the amp section
-No interconnect cables required to connect the various input functions together. No transfer function loss.
-The DAC is connected directly to the power amp section. Again, no transfer function loss.
- No worries about induced hum from a given component.
- The most advanced switching power supply and power amp design in the industry.
A similar set of arguments can be made regarding the NAD Master Series . The Devialet is slightly more advanced with better specs, but both sets of options would be excellent options .
Going forward, predict that integrated solutions will continue to grow and improve.
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The accepted belief in audio has been that the best performance is obtained by separate components. The advantage of separate components are that upgrades can be achieved via piecemeal. Changing out one box at a time made it easy to tell what the upgrade offered. The separate components approach is thought to provide better performance due to the fact that each box is optimized for it's specific function. However, there's also a down side to the separate component approach.
The largest downside is that all these separate components have to be connected via cables. Let's be honest here: Cables cannot ADD any improvement to a given setup. It can only REDUCE the transfer function loss form one component to another. Audiophiles can pay thousands of dollars on these cables that cannot improve performance. They at best, can only reduce the transfer function loss. Another potential downside is that the separate components may not be fully optimized to work within the system as a whole.
The legacy thinking is that an all in one component solution was a "lifestyle choice". The overall system's performance would be compromised in order to achieve convenience. That may have been true in the past, but no more.
I would argue some of the absolute best sonic performance is achieved by current state of the art integrated solutions. The Devialet Expert Pro products actually have better performance specifications than any comparable separate component setup. There are valid reasons why this is so:
-The DAC/Phono/Streaming input options are optimized to work with the amp section
-No interconnect cables required to connect the various input functions together. No transfer function loss.
-The DAC is connected directly to the power amp section. Again, no transfer function loss.
- No worries about induced hum from a given component.
- The most advanced switching power supply and power amp design in the industry.
A similar set of arguments can be made regarding the NAD Master Series . The Devialet is slightly more advanced with better specs, but both sets of options would be excellent options .
Going forward, predict that integrated solutions will continue to grow and improve.
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Hi Freo-1
I 100% agree with you.
Your arguments makes sense.
Thanks.
Double A
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"The music is in the power." Another benefit of separates is the ability to overbuild the power supply section which is essential for improved sound quality, even for today's Class D amps.
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Not that I’ll ever be able afford one but to me the most intriguing recent product introduction is the Daniel Hertz Maria amplifier.
https://danielhertz.com/collections/amplifiers/products/maria-50 (https://danielhertz.com/collections/amplifiers/products/maria-50)
I don’t know that it’s the highest form of integration but it is very appealing for all the reasons you mentioned along with some great reviews - or maybe it’s really the same Steve Hoff review twice.
https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2023/08/06/daniel-hertz-eva-s50-system-review-the-real-mark-levinson/ (https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2023/08/06/daniel-hertz-eva-s50-system-review-the-real-mark-levinson/)
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"The music is in the power." Another benefit of separates is the ability to overbuild the power supply section which is essential for improved sound quality, even for today's Class D amps.
Nelson Pass stated that the design should be as simple as possible, but no simpler. The noise figures regarding the Devialet surpass virtually all separate components. The 1000 Pro power supply can provide 1200w continuous, 4000w peak.
133 db SNR , 0.00025% THD+N at 1,000 watts is as good as it gets.
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I like power amps and integrated amps.
Since they dont have a combo DACs its OK.
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Nelson Pass stated that the design should be as simple as possible, but no simpler. The noise figures regarding the Devialet surpass virtually all separate components. The 1000 Pro power supply can provide 1200w continuous, 4000w peak.
133 db SNR , 0.00025% THD+N at 1,000 watts is as good as it gets.
I was referring to sound quality, not specs. Nelson Pass built beefy power supplies in most of his amps, especially the commercially available ones.
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I was referring to sound quality, not specs. Nelson Pass built beefy power supplies in most of his amps, especially the commercially available ones.
Yes. Sound quality is one of the major reasons/arguments in favor of an integrated audio solution. Benchmark has switched from linear to switched mode power supplies. Why? Sound quality. The improved specs correlate to improved sound quality.
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Not that I’ll ever be able afford one but to me the most intriguing recent product introduction is the Daniel Hertz Maria amplifier.
https://danielhertz.com/collections/amplifiers/products/maria-50 (https://danielhertz.com/collections/amplifiers/products/maria-50)
I don’t know that it’s the highest form of integration but it is very appealing for all the reasons you mentioned along with some great reviews - or maybe it’s really the same Steve Hoff review twice.
https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2023/08/06/daniel-hertz-eva-s50-system-review-the-real-mark-levinson/ (https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2023/08/06/daniel-hertz-eva-s50-system-review-the-real-mark-levinson/)
Looks like a nice bit of kit.
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Hi Freo-1
I 100% agree with you.
Your arguments makes sense.
Thanks.
Double A
No worries. Happy to help.
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Yes Integrated Amps have come a long way.. However IMHO dual mono with a power supply for each ch is best. Listened to a Benchmark Pre LA4 and Benchmark Amp. Sounded wonderful. Then we added another Pre and bridged a pair of Amps. Literally no comparison. Cabling used Benchmark balanced, Swiss Diamond and Fusion . Each were god however one had a great synergy with Components and clearly was better all around.
charles
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Yes Integrated Amps have come a long way.. However IMHO dual mono with a power supply for each ch is best. Listened to a Benchmark Pre LA4 and Benchmark Amp. Sounded wonderful. Then we added another Pre and bridged a pair of Amps. Literally no comparison. Cabling used Benchmark balanced, Swiss Diamond and Fusion . Each were god however one had a great synergy with Components and clearly was better all around.
charles
Well, what do you think the Devialet Expert Pro 440/1000 is? Dual mono chassis connected together via a single digital cable. The 1000 Pro sounds incredible.
No doubt the Benchmark system sounds excellent as well. Always liked Benchmark gear.
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Keeping things simple certainly has its merits.
Unfortunately not many integrated separate teh power amp and preamp so that i can insert an active XO and not abandon the internal power amplifier.
Integrated means a loudspeaker that is either a 1-way or has an XO. Keeping it simple means a 1-way loudspeaker, a multiway implies a passive XO. What is worse, a cross-over with all of the signifcant issues that come with, or some extra cables?
Everything is a compromise. An integrated brings its own significant compromises which may or may not be synergistic with the users particualr needs.
dave
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The Devialet Expert Pro has Speaker Active Matching (SAM), which has advanced EQ for speaker bass performance.
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The Devialet Expert Pro has Speaker Active Matching (SAM), which has advanced EQ for speaker bass performance.
Onkyo has gone one step further:
... the crux of a new offering on all 2021 Onkyo AV Receivers and any new AV Receivers that come to market. Klipsch Optimize Mode allows you to easily integrate your new Klipsch Reference Premiere speakers seamlessly with your high-quality Onkyo AV receiver.
“To simplify setup, Klipsch and Onkyo teamed up to implement the precise crossover values for specific new Reference Premiere speakers,” Hawkins says. In simpler terms, your Onkyo AV Receiver is all ready to work in sync with your Klipsch speakers.
https://onkyousa.com/blog/blog-klipsch-optimized-mode-for-av-receivers-what-is-it (https://onkyousa.com/blog/blog-klipsch-optimized-mode-for-av-receivers-what-is-it)
https://www.klipsch.com/av-receivers (https://www.klipsch.com/av-receivers)
I have no idea how to feel about this.
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Active monitors are another example of integrated solutions. My Buchardt A500SE integrate wireless streaming with room correction with wireless transfer to the speakers all within a tiny hub. The monitors integrate (4) DAC's with 150 watt mono-blocks and drivers plus crossover with master tuning options. All for a highly optimized product.
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Hi-end Integrated solutions can have a lot performance but are usually costly. The Devialet Expert Pro Dual that Freo-1 is talking about starts at $13k and goes up to $35k, for instance. The Buchardt integrated system starts at $5k WITH speakers that JLM mentioned is off-the-charts value and performance. Not that the Devialet wouldn’t be worth it if you already have great speakers.
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Also, I used a Yamaha receiver in a secondary two channel system which was transformer based amp with built-in DAC and streamer. Cost me $600 and sounded excellent with a variety of speakers. Lots of good integrated options out there at all price and performance levels.
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Onkyo has gone one step further:
... the crux of a new offering on all 2021 Onkyo AV Receivers and any new AV Receivers that come to market. Klipsch Optimize Mode allows you to easily integrate your new Klipsch Reference Premiere speakers seamlessly with your high-quality Onkyo AV receiver.
“To simplify setup, Klipsch and Onkyo teamed up to implement the precise crossover values for specific new Reference Premiere speakers,” Hawkins says. In simpler terms, your Onkyo AV Receiver is all ready to work in sync with your Klipsch speakers.
https://onkyousa.com/blog/blog-klipsch-optimized-mode-for-av-receivers-what-is-it (https://onkyousa.com/blog/blog-klipsch-optimized-mode-for-av-receivers-what-is-it)
https://www.klipsch.com/av-receivers (https://www.klipsch.com/av-receivers)
I have no idea how to feel about this.
Hard to say. I think it would help, but SAM is more advanced with regards to bass management.
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/speaker-active-matching-sam-technology-in-the-devialet-expert-220-pro-integrated-amplifier/ (https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/speaker-active-matching-sam-technology-in-the-devialet-expert-220-pro-integrated-amplifier/)
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Hi-end Integrated solutions can have a lot performance but are usually costly. The Devialet Expert Pro Dual that Freo-1 is talking about starts at $13k and goes up to $35k, for instance. The Buchardt integrated system starts at $5k WITH speakers that JLM mentioned is off-the-charts value and performance. Not that the Devialet wouldn’t be worth it if you already have great speakers.
I obtained my Devialet 1000 Pro at a bargin price. Both units were Devialet Premier used for a very low price. They were both upgraded by Devialet for a very reasonable price. Whilst still not cheap, the cost was in line with moderately priced separates with quality interconnects. Also have ATC SCM 40 V2 speakers that are supported by Speaker Active Matching.
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/speaker-active-matching-sam-technology-in-the-devialet-expert-220-pro-integrated-amplifier/ (https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/speaker-active-matching-sam-technology-in-the-devialet-expert-220-pro-integrated-amplifier/)
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Whilst still not cheap, the cost was in line with moderately priced separates with quality interconnects.
Yeah, I've heard Devialet only once (I think it was the 200 model). Like you say, it seemed in line with similarly priced separates and interconnects. I'm sure it's gotten much better over the years with SAM, etc. No denying the cool factor too!