Right channel break-in

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martyo

Right channel break-in
« on: 27 Feb 2008, 12:40 pm »
This is embarrassing. Through my own clumsiness and sticking a screw driver where it didn't belong, I wiped out the output devices on the right channel of my amp. Frank repaired it and generously ate half the cost himself. My dilemma is that my set has been sounding so off balance and I finally figured out what is happening. The right channel isn't broken in yet.  :wink:

AND the electric company just replaced a transformer on my neighbors utility pole, it's not broken in yet, and now I read they are going to change the fuel rod vendor at the local nuclear power plant. What to do...... :o

avahifi

Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #1 on: 27 Feb 2008, 02:00 pm »
Humm, there should not be any difference in the right and left channel sound, break in or not.  Swap your speaker leads from channel to channel and see if the preceived issue follows the channel.  Let me know.

Frank

martyo

Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #2 on: 27 Feb 2008, 02:22 pm »
Sorry Frank, the amp is fine and kicking butt. Just "trying" :duh: to be humorous, that's why I used the "wink" :wink:
Hope I didn't waste your time.

Wayner

Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #3 on: 27 Feb 2008, 02:40 pm »
Martyo,

What were you doing with the screw driver (with the amp on)?  :nono: You should have known better, that's how my Dynaco Stereo 120 turned into an AVA 170Ex..... :duh:    :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wayner

martyo

Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #4 on: 27 Feb 2008, 03:21 pm »
Quote
What were you doing with the screw driver (with the amp on)?

 :oops:  :shh:  It was off but the caps were fully charged, at least it looked and sounded as if they were with all the sparks and that ( :bomb: ) POP!!

Brett Buck

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Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #5 on: 28 Feb 2008, 03:07 am »
This is embarrassing. Through my own clumsiness and sticking a screw driver where it didn't belong, I wiped out the output devices on the right channel of my amp. Frank repaired it and generously ate half the cost himself. My dilemma is that my set has been sounding so off balance and I finally figured out what is happening. The right channel isn't broken in yet. 

   You are jumping to conclusions. Most so-called break-in problems are not really that. Whenever you have a change or failure, or rearrange anything in your system, you break up the harmonious flow of chi. Many times, the correct flow of chi takes hours or days to re-establish itself.

   But, there are some obvious things to check:

     Mpingo dot location/orientation: Many times, when the system has been assembled or disassembled, the location of the mpingo dots is disrupted and winds up slightly misplaced. Given that the wavelength of audio signals may be as little as  .6", misplacements of even half that*1 can drastically affect the phase and damping of any standing waves WRT the centroid of the disk. Even worse, if you incorrectly orient the grain of the wood, it can end up having *absolutely no effect* on the sound!  Not marking the direction, and not making jigs/fixtures necessary to correctly orient the Mpingo dots, is a classic rookie mistake. Note that this is closely related to the flow of chi mentioned above, so it may never be possible to objectively determine if the problem was incorrect dot placement, or simply a transient disruption.

    Pyramidal enclosure orientation: If like many high-end audiophiles you are using a pyramidal enclosures and stands for best sound, recall that pyramids only channel the energy correctly when aligned with the faces along a north/south axis. Note also that, since you originally ran the amplifier last, the position of magnetic North has shifted slightly and that, and not a poorly-broken-it amplifer side, can disrupt that perfect sound.

     Oxygen leaking into interconnects/speaker wires: We all understand the vagaries of oxygen-laden bad-sounding copper conductors. But when you short of otherwise fail only one side of a system (amplifier in your case) it's entirely possible that the oxygen diffusion rate was different on the interconnects or speaker wire during the time they were exposed to the air. Differences in the oxygen content of the copper from side to side can play havoc with the imaging. This is very hard to avoid with the typical 50's-style "hi-fi-den" listening rooms containing large amounts of free oxygen,  which is what led many leading audiophiles to experiment with oxygen-free listening rooms. If you are on a budget, simply enclosing the active audio components in a vacuum chamber can have remarkable effects on the sound quality.  A typical household mercury diffusion pump can evacuate down to 10^-4 or 10^-5 torr, which while far from ideal, can significantly improve the sound of the typical audio system. Note that this also allows vacuum tubes to function without the bad-sounding (and usually microphonic) glass envelopes, so you can have a secondary benefit.

    Note also that in some cases the detrimental effects of oxygen diffusing into the conductors of interconnects and speaker wire can be halted or even reversed by the use of the various proprietary cable break-in tools. If your test equipment is not up to the task of measuring the effects, its best to contact the cable manufacturer for a recommendation. Power cables, once damaged by oxygen (or dark chi flow) cannot be effectively repaired and should be replaced.

    Differential charge on power supply: if the battery bank for the right and left channels is not at the same state of charge, it's obvious that the correct channel balance may not be acheived. A simple audiophile-quality hydrometer reading of the battery acid pH can confirm this quickly and it's a simple fix. Note that although the typical navy-surplus submarine battery commonly used in mid-fi applications can run a typical system for some weeks or months, audiophile quality supplies need to be charged at least every 15 minutes. This should not be a severe hardship to the serious music fan, as most high-end source material (i.e. wax cylinders or 120 ips reel-to-reel tape) contains less than 2 minutes of content. Note also that there have been some recent experiments with the so-called "continuous battery chargers" consisting of an array transformers, diodes, and capacitors that supply the battery from common household AC, but until such technology is perfected, the wise hi-fi enthusiast will steer clear of these sorts of fads.

    Hopefully these simple troubleshooting hints will locate the source of your problem. If not, then please post the details of your system (and any skin galvanometer readings you may take) and I'm sure we will be able to narrow it down for you.

     Brett

 * Nyquist's theorem, look it up

martyo

Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #6 on: 28 Feb 2008, 09:40 am »
You got it Brett.  :thumb:

Yesterday I just came home and started listening, today I don't even have to turn the set on. As you so astutely pointed out, there's the Mpingo dot location/orientation and Pyramidal enclosure orientation to work out first. That damn oxygen is a tough on, I keep slipping back into my denial that you know, "it's oxygen", I guess I finally have to face up to the fact that it's very detrimental to hi-fi. I completely forgot about the mercury diffusion pump, thanks for the reminder.
And batteries; must be the short term memory loss from 38 years ago. I'm now reminded of the apartment my brother and I shared that didn't have a stereo. We eventually brought in the 8 track from the car, and the car battery, and now that I'm remembering, the front car seats too,(it was an older Mercedes, nice leather recliners). It's clear to me now why that 8 track sounded so good, battery power......
« Last Edit: 28 Feb 2008, 10:03 am by martyo »

avahifi

Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #7 on: 28 Feb 2008, 01:52 pm »
One more things, its the speaker wires.

Thanks to Marty, or was it his brother, (keep forgetting which, I am suffering from beginning signs of old age the dreaded CRS.  can't remember shit).  What was I talking about?

Oh yes the speaker wires.  One of those two guys just sent me the most remarkable speaker wires I have ever seen or used.  They actually meet my first criteria about speaker wires perfectly.

I have not had time to fully experience them yet.  But I will have a detailed report on them soon (with photos) herein but can already suggest they may become my favorites.

They are nothing at all like the tuning effects discussed above.  These actually have multifunction value.

More later.

Frank Van Alstine

martyo

Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #8 on: 28 Feb 2008, 02:10 pm »
That would be my brother, Mark, that sent you the wires. Look forward to your report. I can totally relate to the CRS syndrome.

BrianM

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Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #9 on: 28 Feb 2008, 02:26 pm »
Brett Buck......respect.

Zheeeem

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Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #10 on: 28 Feb 2008, 05:14 pm »
My dilemma is that my set has been sounding so off balance and I finally figured out what is happening. The right channel isn't broken in yet.  :wink:

Well, my guess is that you had machina dynamica perform a teleportation tweak on the unit before frying the channel, so now you have one channel with a teleportation tweak and the other without.  To fix this, when you call for a second teleportation tweak, you should yell loudly "RIGHT CHANNEL ONLY!!! RIGHT CHANNEL ONLY!!!" while the tweak is going on so it knows where to go.  Maybe you can get the tweak for half price???

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina60.htm

I'm amazed that you were able to blow a channel.  I've been trying to blow up Frank's stuff for over 30 years, with no success.

martyo

Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #11 on: 28 Feb 2008, 06:01 pm »
Thanks Zheeeem  :thumb:

Quote
I'm amazed that you were able to blow a channel.  I've been trying to blow up Frank's stuff for over 30 years, with no success.
I think I should really explain what happened. New speakers, a week old, 85db sensitivity, I was used to listening to highly colored w/fat bass speakers. I was listening to some pretty compressed music(actually the Cream reunion) and I blew the right channel 8amp fuse inside the amp that protects the output devices. By the time I got inside to the fuse I guess I was getting anxious and I couldn't get a good grip on the fuse so that's when the screwdriver entered. As I was trying to pry the fuse out the screwdriver slipped and became a conductor from the fuse holder to the lead(?) support of the board with all the caps on it. Quite a loud pop(bang!!!!!) and many sparks. About 1/2 an hour later, after I stopped shaking.....I easily replaced the blown fuse and everything worked again. Whew, I thought. Turned off the set until the next day. Started listening and on the 3rd cut the right channel went to hell. Frank believes I blew out 2 of the FET's with the initial screwdriver incident. The amp will work with just one FET but not for long. Frank has never seen a complete channel go before either, with out any help. So now the whole story is out there.  :oops:

Toka

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Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #12 on: 28 Feb 2008, 07:59 pm »
Hey, these things happen!  :) I'm curious as to the speaker wires...they wouldn't be in your sig by any chance...?

martyo

Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #13 on: 28 Feb 2008, 08:17 pm »
Quote
Hey, these things happen!  :) I'm curious as to the speaker wires...they wouldn't be in your sig by any chance...?


Sure, the Blue Jeans Cable 10ga. Belden 5T00UP.

Brett Buck

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Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #14 on: 28 Feb 2008, 09:51 pm »
Yesterday I just came home and started listening, today I don't even have to turn the set on. As you so astutely pointed out, there's the Mpingo dot location/orientation and Pyramidal enclosure orientation to work out first.

    As most of us know, Mpingo (ebony briars to the layperson) is the best for sound quality, but it's very critical as to placement. In some cases, if the demands of alignment are too difficult, other types of wood disks can be used.  Brazilian Cocobolo (Dalbergia retusa) is known from, simple high-school physics, to be less critical with regards to placement and orientation. The improvement to the sound quality in a perfect case is not as good with cocobolo, but if the alignment is not perfect, the net effect can be superior to mpingo.

    Others have also used Ecuadorian balsa (Ochroma pyramidale) disks and while it's quite insensitive to orientation, the net effect is (or can be) gritty, non-transcendent, or even veiled. I myself tried this while auditioning my 1/16 watt SET amp using the triode sections of the 7199 tube with my usual test record, The Collected Works of David Seville (128-bit DSD German remaster from 1962) and found that while the alto parts*1 were airy with excellent holography, the tenor parts*2 were downright muddy with no "space" with very vague imaging. Replacing the balsa disks with the normal Mpingo (placed properly, of course) restored the full fidelity and much inner detail to this fantastically engaging and challenging recording. The effect on other common audiophile recordings (Tony the Tiger Sings the Archies , Kellog single-sided 1972 remix on picture disk*3) was similar although not as dramatic.

    I offer this as a cautionary tale so other can benefit from my experience - beware bogus claim of of improved fidelity as some manufacturers are not as ethical as they could be. Fortunately the "bad apples" in the audio world are few and far between but my advice is - stick with established manufacturers when it comes to chi flow control or stray resonance damping devices! Otherwise you may be burned.

     Brett

*1 Alvin
*2 Theodore
*3 Note that the method of removal of the disk from the back of the box is critical for fidelity on this record. Be very cautious when purchasing this rare recording if it has been removed by the seller. Many copies are ruined before even being played by careless removal using scissors or kitchen knives.  While they are expensive, the serious music fan should hold out for MOB (mint on box) versions when they come up for auction. Even better is a completely unused box, complete with cereal. That way you can be sure that the substrate has not be disrupted. Caveat Emptor!

(edited to add species information 2/28/08 bb)
« Last Edit: 29 Feb 2008, 04:33 am by Brett Buck »

mark funk

Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #15 on: 28 Feb 2008, 10:43 pm »
Martyo I think Toka was talking about the cables I sent Frank? The cables work well, just like my Belden 5T00UP that's all I well say, I well let Frank post his report. You never know, I have a few feet left aa :smoke:

Brett Buck

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Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #16 on: 28 Feb 2008, 11:04 pm »

Well, my guess is that you had machina dynamica perform a teleportation tweak on the unit before frying the channel, so now you have one channel with a teleportation tweak and the other without.  To fix this, when you call for a second teleportation tweak, you should yell loudly "RIGHT CHANNEL ONLY!!! RIGHT CHANNEL ONLY!!!" while the tweak is going on so it knows where to go.  Maybe you can get the tweak for half price???

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina60.htm


    I am sorry to report that if you purchased this "improvement" you probably got ripped off. The problem is that teleportation technology, while flashy and trendy right now, is not solidly based on sound audio design principles. In particular, during the initial scanning of the object to be transmitted, and then again upon materialization at the destination end, significant phase shifts occur that cannot be restored. No phase information = no imaging! Moreover, many audiophile quality discrete components, capacitors in particular, are damaged or completely ruined by teleportation. Just because it measures the same and has all the same electrical and mechanical characteristics does mean the aural qualities are the same. Many so-called electrical engineers don't recognize the changes or even attempt to listen to the components  - they are stuck into a hide-bound world of measurements and mathematics.

   Note also that teleportation depends on quantum mechanical tunnelling - and quantum mechanics is based on statistical principles and random chance. Randomness is the very essence of noise, and noise is the very last thing you want for good audio reproduction.

   Until and unless the underlying problems are solved, I think my best advice would be to avoid the use of any teleportation or other quantum-mechanics based techniques.

    Brett

   

BrianM

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Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #17 on: 29 Feb 2008, 12:50 am »
Brett:

What if, instead of teleporting, it's sent through a wormhole? I understand that that does not involve any of the adverse molecular (okay, atomic and subatomic) deconstruction and reconstruction; rather, it appears to comprehend an instantaneous pivoting, in toto, into some tangential dimension.  Thoughts?

Flyquail56

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Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #18 on: 29 Feb 2008, 01:34 am »
Wow, great stuff here Brett! We need an FAQ for this, so that we can refer to it easily.

I find particularly interesting the mention of transient disruption in your first post. If I am correct, I experience this phenomenon quite often after eating beans.

It does at least help displace some of the oxygen from the room though...

Mike

Toka

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Re: Right channel break-in
« Reply #19 on: 29 Feb 2008, 03:15 am »
Martyo I think Toka was talking about the cables I sent Frank? The cables work well, just like my Belden 5T00UP that's all I well say, I well let Frank post his report. You never know, I have a few feet left aa :smoke:

Yep, thats what I was askin'...thought maybe it was the same thing. Color me curious! Yet again...  :scratch: