[Mr. Big]

Subs can do more harm than good depending on the speaker design, having tried 3 subs on my M3's Sapphires they sound much purer and balanced as is. I feel no need for subs on 95% of my music, my subs are now in my HT system which is where they belong. I lose the whole balance of the M3s with subs, there are so coherent. Clayton did a superb job on the Saphhires.

[mrotino332]

I happen to agree with you Mr. Big.  i would say the only music where I might want a little more bass is electronic type music such as if I was listening to Yello at loud volumes which I rarely would do.  For any other music I'm very satisfied with the bass without the Rels I tried since I already had them.  They lasted for about one week then I took them out.  Again in a different room I would try them again but suspect I would prefer without them.

[Bingenito]

One thing about subs is that if you do implement them make sure that they extend well below your speakers. Many brands play with unregulated specifications and you end up with a hot mess on your hands.

Also some will disagree but without dsp subs can be next to impossible to properly integrate especially those subs with low slope crossovers eg 12db per octave and a 2 position phase switch. Trust science over marketing!

[mrotino332]

You may be right Bingento.  I believe my older rel subs are 12 db octave and only have a two position phase switch.  They are able to be crossed over very low which is very good and I did cross them very low when using them with the X5s and I used two in stereo which helped but I believe DSP would have definitely improved the integration as well.  But my contention still is after having heard so many full range box speakers and subs is that there is a fairly big difference in bass quality between open baffle bass and box bass in general.  I just feel the box excites so many more room nodes and makes it very difficult to get clean fast bass and that open baffle bass by design is just much quicker and resolving.  My room is a difficult room so probably a different room would yield better results with the subs. 

I just notice a faster, cleaner and more detailed bass quality from my X5s as compared to augmenting them with the Rels crossed over very low and it was immediate after having lived with the Rels for so many years.  Of course I haven't tried other subs or newer Rel models recently as I'm very satisfied with bass as is now but always felt the Rels were better than most subs for music, not movies. 

[Tangram]

One thing about subs is that if you do implement them make sure that they extend well below your speakers. Many brands play with unregulated specifications and you end up with a hot mess on your hands.

Also some will disagree but without dsp subs can be next to impossible to properly integrate especially those subs with low slope crossovers eg 12db per octave and a 2 position phase switch. Trust science over marketing!

Agree 100%. I have had both - one was an "audiophile" sub with no DSP and the other was a "home theatre" sub with DSP that was a bit more than half the price of the audiophile sub. I had never been happy with the pricier subs and sold them. For a while I stayed away from subs altogether but decided to give them another try. The home theatre subs did the trick and I happily lived with them prior to getting my M3 Sapphires, at which point I realized I didn't need subs so I repurposed them - in my home theatre!

Honestly, unless you have a large room I see no reason for subs with ANY Spatials. That people are using them with the X-Series is, to me, surprising.

[Desertpilot]

Interesting conversation.  My system is in a huge "great" room, 30 feet long by 40 feet wide, 11 to 14 foot vaulted ceiling.  Everything is located in the front left area of the room, about 15 feet wide.  I do not feel the need for extra subwoofers.  I listen primarily to classical music.  Not many instruments get below the 90 Hz crossover to the subs.  I have three X3s up front (mine have the 250 watt amplifier).  Double bass, for example, gets down there.  I hear it all perfectly well.  But, I do have two SVS SB13 Ultra subwoofers (in the rear of my room).  Based on measurements we decided to crossover the X3s at 30Hz to the subs.  The subs work well down to 10 Hz.  I did this because I occasionally listen to Organ music which can reach down pretty deep.

My system is also used for Home Theater.  In this application, my crossover is 40 Hz.  I want all the explosions and car crashes moved to the subs.  The subs get a real workout in this instance.  For music, however, my subs are pretty much unemployed.

Marcus

[JLM]

As a SET wanta be I was introduced to high efficiency loudspeakers.  Found that nearly all those loudspeakers lack deep bass and SET fans have been conditioned to not want/accept deep bass when present. 

Most subwoofer setups are done wrong according to Floyd Toole, well respected acoustician.  Read his "Sound Reproduction". 

[Tyson]

As a SET wanta be I was introduced to high efficiency loudspeakers.  Found that nearly all those loudspeakers lack deep bass and SET fans have been conditioned to not want/accept deep bass when present. 

Most subwoofer setups are done wrong according to Floyd Toole, well respected acoustician.  Read his "Sound Reproduction". 

Why can't you do high efficiency speakers AND subwoofers?