[R. Daneel]

Hi James!

Now that the BP-6 preamp, 2B-LP power amp and B-60 integrated amp have been discontinued, are there plans any plans, either short-term or long-term, for a B-60 replacement in a form of a smaller version of the current B-135?

As I explained in another thread where you asked us to recommend new products, the B-135 with it's 135 Watts into 8 Ohms is simply too powerful for most people living in EU. All that one needs to do is to look at what the other popular European makes are doing to realize that the large majority of music enthusiasts don't need that much power. Even if you look at the top-drawer series from the high-end makes, the range will almost certainly start with something that has around 80 Watts. The Naim SuperNait is the perfect example of this.

Very, very few music enthusiasts here have big floorstanding speakers and big listening rooms or lounges. Typically, they'll have a standmount or a smaller floorstanding speaker and an amplifier sub-100 Watt amplifier. Also, electricity is expensive here.

One part of the problem as I see it is that dealers will typically recommend a Bryston amplifier to customers who have bigger speakers and rooms but they'll almost always recommend some other make, typically European, to customers with typical-sized rooms and speakers and like I said, this sort of a customer represents the majority of the market.

The B-60 was a fantastic integrated amp and from my understanding, not exactly cheap to make as the PCBs utilized a lot of through-hole components which in turn meant a lot of it had to be done by hand. Now that Bryston can produce it's own PCBs using SMT, perhaps it would be worth considering making a B-60 replacement with perhaps slightly bigger power output and possibly utilizing some of the circuit improvements that have been developed in recent years. This then would still be a high-end piece, just without the unnecessary power output the typical up-market customer here would not appreciate and would therefore be swayed in some other direction as a consequence. Now, if it also cost a thousand or two less than the B-135, that would be excellent.

I am not here to teach you how to run your business as ultimately, that is your decision. But appreciating what Bryston has done in the past and continues doing, I feel like it is my responsibility to speak my mind. Even if my comments are sometimes negative, my intentions are always good.

Even though it is my intention for this post to be read by James, everyone is invited to comment of course.

Cheers,
Antun

[James Tanner]

H- Antun

Yes I am thinking about your idea.  I think a small integrated with a streamer?

james

[R. Daneel]

H- Antun

Yes I am thinking about your idea.  I think a small integrated with a streamer?

james

Hi James!

One thing that Bryston symbolises, and there are only a few other amplifier manufacturers like that, is no good-better-best. Your smallest amps are just as good as the biggest ones. It's a matter of how much power you require more than anything else. Hence even your smallest amps don't cost an insignificant amount.

I will get to the point in a minute, stay with me...

Meanwhile, other manufacturers who present themselves in a similar manner, Simaudio for example (which is quite similar to Bryston size-wise), in reality offer distinctly different levels of quality when moving from one price range to the next. Their entry-level amplifiers are a far cry from what they can make and yet it is these products that have integrated streamers. This is how they're able to keep the manufacturing in Canada (which is commendable) and offer a seemingly appealing product to a wider range of clients. But the main feature, the amplifier circuit, has been 'stripped down', a compromise Bryston would not take I believe. If the product fails at it's main purpose, which is to say as an amplifier, then what's the point, right?

My point is – how affordable can you make this amplifier to cost less than the B-135 and to maintain the quality your clients expect from you? If you add streaming, that would increase the price and would likely bring it more in-line with the B-135 which wouldn't benefit either product.

I myself am not a fan of built-in streamers and so a purist 'pure analog' approach would be my preference but of course, Bryston must cater to the worldwide market and in such a context, a streamer might make sense.

Cheers,
Antun

[veloceleste]

There are now a lot of integrated amps with streamers built in. I think these are todays  two channel “receivers.”

[GrooveControl]

I think a small integrated with a streamer?

james

I suggest leaving the streamer and anything else digital out, and make it analog only.  Anyone investing in an analog only amp knows it will still be useful in 30 years.  Anything digital, well, hard to say. Look at the SP1.7, great at the time, but now without HDMI, room correction, etc, its relevance is now reduced to the 2 channel bypass mode. 

Another thought: if you want make it more affordable, can 1 transformer that supplies enough current to 1 135w amp not supply 2 60w channels?

[spartana]

I suggest leaving the streamer and anything else digital out, and make it analog only.

I totally agree with this statement. Digital ages faster than a good analog device. A good streamer with built in Dac can be purchased for less than 1000 k and be replaced after some years when new formats / features become popular. The analog amp would stay.

An integrated in the price range of the Naim Super Nait, the sound of Bryston and the 20 years warranty would be a killer device here in Europe.

Maybe a bit bigger in appearance than the B-60. That may be cosmetics but someone who spends 5k for an integrated might misjudge a new B-60 that is placed in the same shelf as a 800 Euro Creek amp.

Concernimg connectivity: I need two analog inputs. My TV, my streamer are connected to my Dac. The 2nd analog input is used for my phono stage. So 3-4 analog inputs should be enough for most customers.

[GrooveControl]

Have some fun with this one James.
Must stay features are the tape monitor and pre-out / main-in.
Nice to have would be a switched AC outlet or 12v trigger. 
If going for gold then replace line 3 and 4 with phono and balanced inputs.   

And yes, meters.   

[Twiga]

To the points raised by GrooveControl and spartana, yes digital changes quickly. Would it be possible to "hardwire" the analog functions and make the digital parts (e.g the DAC) modular, so that it can be upgraded by replacing a circuit board (dealer upgrade?). Or would this raise the cost curve too high to meet the original objective of a high-quality entry-level unit?

[spartana]

@ Twiga: basically a nice idea. I just wonder if the dealers would like that. For them it is easier to sell a separate device (+ a set of fancy cables) than to open an existing one. When I added the phono option to my BP17 that were a lot of screws to screw 

What could be interesting as an upgrade path is the good old PSU upgrade, e.g. to later enhance the preamp section by an external PS3. I guess some brands consequently go that way to offer an affordable entry point and a later improvement as second step, e.g. naim, cyrus

[R. Daneel]

To offer upgradeable power supplies is a terrible idea, I think. Have a good long look at how much those power supplies cost. Also, to 'suggest' there is an improvement over what you're getting implies compromise and that the product has been built to a price point. It is not what Bryston does and I don't think this is ever going to be a part of Bryston's portfolio so please keep it realistic folks.

Besides, my experience with either Naim and Cyrus have been nothing short of catastrophic. So much so in fact that I wonder how some of these products even entered production phase. In the specific case of Naim, the upgraded power supplies are there to eliminate what are essentially design and/or manufacturing flaws. Unless you think it is normal for the sound to cut off if you decide to turn on the desk lamp which just happens to be running off the same mains as the Naim product.

It was not my intention to compare Bryston to any of these makes. However, it is a fact that these makes sell very well, a lot better than Bryston, and undeservedly so. I would like to see some changes. One way to do it would be to make a competing amplifier or superficially similar specs. Very few European reviewers have the know-how or just plain common sense to recognize a product of higher design and engineering standards. To them, the main differentiating factor is the price and so realizing that, one must try to offer something similar, even if it is a lot better.

Cheers,
Antun

[Joe Frances]

I am still in mourning for the B-60; one of the best amps I've ever heard, and IMHO better and more natural sounding that the B135.

[Joe Frances]

There are now a lot of integrated amps with streamers built in. I think these are todays  two channel “receivers.”

Sort agree, though I'd never thought of it that way before. 

[alexone]

I am still in mourning for the B-60; one of the best amps I've ever heard, and IMHO better and more natural sounding that the B135.

...can't say anything about the 135 but the B60 is indeed a great amp
just another example of cool Bryston stuff!

al.

[Metal Forever]

Hi James,

Could the streamer be an optional module? Similar to the DAC or phono stage in the BP26?  This will not only provide flexibility but also allow upgradability as technology advances.

Thanks

[James Tanner]

Hi James,

Could the streamer be an optional module? Similar to the DAC or phono stage in the BP26?  This will not only provide flexibility but also allow upgradability as technology advances.

Thanks

The Streamer is a Pi-4 and is modular.
It is not an option on the BR-20

james

[Nidri17]

Great thread.
Excellent suggestion.
Bryston has such a strong reputation,
a new entry level model just makes sense in the current market.

To this day, I regret selling my B-60 to buy a more 'powerful' amplifier many years ago.

[RDavidson]

A new B-60 with an adjustable high/low pass filter for sub integration would be fantastic. Even without a sub, being able to cut low frequencies from reaching smaller standmount speakers would be awesome. With modest power output (typical for EU setups), a high/low pass filter can really stretch the capabilities of that available power. Not to mention, it provides flexibility for those with perhaps larger speakers and rooms who intend on using a sub. Right now I'm using a NAD D 3045 with tower speakers and a sub in my living room. Because of the high/low pass filter I never sense even the slightest strain from its very modest 60wpc because I'm sending bass below 80hz to my sub. This isn't a plug for the NAD, it's proof of concept. I'd love to upgrade it at some point (wink wink), but there are simply very few offerings on the market like it currently.