AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: rebbi on 23 Apr 2015, 01:54 pm
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Hi, Folks!
My current speakers are Reference 3A De Capo's, which I have loved in the past in combination with my old Manley Mahi push-pull tube mono-blocks. (If you're interested, here's my review (http://audioasylum.com/reviews/Speakers/Reference-3A/MM-de-Capo-i/speakers/33/336140.html) of the De Capo's and of their little brother, the Dulcet (http://audioasylum.com/reviews/Speakers/Reference-3A/Dulcet/speakers/31/318237.html).)
This past winter, I sold my Manley gear and built a 300B SET amp, the Audio Note Kit 1. I blogged the process of building the amp, and again, if you're interested, you can check out the ongoing blog here (https://stevefolberg.wordpress.com/).
I am in love with the sound of this amp and sold on the virtues of SET amplification. Now I am wondering how the system might sound with a speaker truly optimized for low power tube amps, such as the Omega. In a sense, the De Capo is probably as close to a single-driver system as you're going to get in a 2-way, given that the mid-woofer is coupled directly to the amp with no crossover, and the tweeter is protected by a single capacitor.
I spoke with Louis some time ago and he recommended the Super 7 XRS Mk II. I'd love to try the Super Alnico XRS but I'd have to fund the new speakers by selling my current ones and unfortunately I think that puts the Alnico's out of reach.
So, here are a few questions:
- Given that Louis gives you a 30 day home trial, I was wondering how much break-in the Omega's need to get a sense of what they can really do. I know that some full-range drivers have a reputation of being peaky and obnoxious until they have several hundred hours on them. So, how good a sense of the speakers' capabilities can you really get within the trial period?
- I am sort of an imaging and soundstage addict and I know that the Omega's have a sterling reputation in that department, so I guess I'm covered there, right?
- The BE tweeter on the De Capo's is very smooth and extended, and I'm wondering if I'd lose much - if any - of that with the Omega's.
- I'm guessing that the De Capo's dig down into the lower 40's in terms of low end extension. In my smallish, 11 x 16 x 8 room, what kind of bass performance might I expect?
- Finally, placement. I don't have a dedicated listening room, and therefore I have limitations to placement. For example, I can't get the speakers much more than 1.5 to 2 feet out from the wall behind them. With the bottom ported XRS, is that likely to be a problem?
Thanks for your thoughts, folks.
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Let's see...
-break in is shorter for the newer drivers but I still would want to get 100+ hours before judging.
-imaging will be awesome if your acoustic space will support it. Single drivers tend to beam the higher frequencies but the mid frequencies still have wider dispersion and 1st reflection points should be treated imo.
-you will lose some high frequency extension vs a Be tweeter but I'm not sure you'll notice it or miss it
-you'll get similar bass extension but a sub is always a good idea if it blends in well
-placement should be fine
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Hello rebbi,
In your size room I think the Super Alnico XRS could be overkill. I think the Super 7XRS MK2 would be a great choice. You might also consider the Super Alnico Monitor. I run mine (on Skylan 4 post stands) with a 2 watt SET and the sound is sublime. My room is 13' x 17' x 8 and the system is on the long wall. I also have the Super 7 Monitor MK2 which I love, but the Alnico Monitor is in a completely different class. I realize the Super Alnico Monitor and a pair of 4 post Skylan stands is fairly pricey, but if you already have some solid stands in the 20" range, they should work fine until you can get some Skylans. A really good and affordable stand is the Lovan Jazz 1800 which will work well with the Super Alnico Monitor.
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Hello Canada Rob,
I recall looking for the Lovan Jazz stands to buy a few years ago and could not find anyone who actually had them for sale. It seemed like they had been discontinued. Just wondering if you know of an actual site to buy them from. They look like great stands, but are they actually available any longer is the question.
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Hello Canada Rob,
I recall looking for the Lovan Jazz stands to buy a few years ago and could not find anyone who actually had them for sale. It seemed like they had been discontinued. Just wondering if you know of an actual site to buy them from. They look like great stands, but are they actually available any longer is the question.
You might contact Lovan and see where you can get some.
See link: http://www.lovanusa.com/index.php?cPath=1_9&osCsid=2ba7d9045808706986d7c95a77517ffe (http://www.lovanusa.com/index.php?cPath=1_9&osCsid=2ba7d9045808706986d7c95a77517ffe)
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Canada Rob,
Many thanks to you and everyone else for the feedback. I already have a set of extremely solid speaker stands, the old Osiris 24 inch models that are very heavy, solid metal and filled with sand and incredibly stable and inert. I have a feeling that the top plate might be a bit on the small side for the Omega monitors, but as a temporary place to position them, they might work just fine. Thank you for bringing up this option.
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Question about placement in room and on stands:
Knowing that every room will affect placement...generally speaking what is the best/better placement for the Alnicos monitors (or even Super 7 monitors) - toe in? Straight out?
I have 60 pound 4 post 21" Target stands ready and waiting. What do I want to use to separate the speaker veneer from the hard metal? Sorbothane feet? Open cell foam? 2" butcher block? T-bone steak? :wink:
Michael
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Question about placement in room and on stands:
Knowing that every room will affect placement...generally speaking what is the best/better placement for the Alnicos monitors (or even Super 7 monitors) - toe in? Straight out?
I have 60 pound 4 post 21" Target stands ready and waiting. What do I want to use to separate the speaker veneer from the hard metal? Sorbothane feet? Open cell foam? 2" butcher block? T-bone steak? :wink:
Michael
For your porpoises --- tuna steak.
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Blu-Tak works well in keeping the speaker steady. You may consider using Vibrapods if the plinth is of proper size so the speaker cannot be moved. Decoupling the stand from the floor is recommended as well. Herbies products are very affective.
charles
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Question about placement in room and on stands:
Knowing that every room will affect placement...generally speaking what is the best/better placement for the Alnicos monitors (or even Super 7 monitors) - toe in? Straight out?
I have 60 pound 4 post 21" Target stands ready and waiting. What do I want to use to separate the speaker veneer from the hard metal? Sorbothane feet? Open cell foam? 2" butcher block? T-bone steak? :wink:
Michael
Slight toe in shooting at shoulders or just outside. Sorbothane feet (stuck to stand, not speaker) are good and won't mar the bottom of the speaker.
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Walmart sells blue "Fun tack" for a couple of bucks (enough to do a pair of speakers).
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Thanks, guys.
Doesn't Blue Tack sometimes cause problems for veneer? I'll probably try sorbothane feet or, perhaps, Salmon jerky. :wink:
Apologies to Rebbi for going off topic. I'll behave.
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Thanks, guys.
Doesn't Blue Tack sometimes cause problems for veneer? I'll probably try sorbothane feet or, perhaps, Salmon jerky. :wink:
Rainbow trout caught on a nice fly rig. :lol:
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I've never had any problems with Blu Tack on wood veneer or paint......and that's on speakers less robustly built than Omegas. Just use 3-4 small balls of it about the diameter of a dime. No need to coat the bottoms of the speakers with it. It holds speakers to stands VERY well.
.......or use north atlantic cod.
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Umm... we got ourselves some "topic drift" here. :lol:
Anybody have additional comments on my original post?
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Seems like the move of a never satisfied human audiophile (to break a pairing you "loved"). As an engineer, I say (but don't always follow my own advice :oops:) "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". As somewhat a "speaker guy" I'm a speaker first, then find the best amp to serve it, kind of guy. So I don't understand why you'd smuck up an apparent good pairing with an amp change. Sorry but you did ask for more comments, right?
The Reference 3A De Capo is a classic, well designed, and universally respected. They would not be easy to replace (or improve upon).
The Alnico XRS speakers sit higher than the other XRS speakers, but are still a bit low (a bigger deal is a small room and can still be hidden behind furnishings). I use Alnico single drivers, but the rated F3 of 35 Hz might be a bit over powering for your room. So Louis' recommendation of the Super 7 Monitor Mk II would probably be your best fit for the room and coming from the 3A's.
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The plight of the audiophile follows the patterns described by other addictions. The ebb and flow of emotions, always the oblivious, delirious, dissatisfied undulations. Always seeking a higher high.
Keep your system as it is and seek counseling. Ultimately, it is not the room or the speakers or the wires that needs to be treated. It is the human. Be grateful that you had the wisdom or guidance to assemble such a successful system and don't mess with success. If you have money to burn, you can throw it on my fire.
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Macrojack and JLM,
The therapy check is in the mail. :lol:
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Would that be for my therapy or yours?
I tried for years to warm up to SET's but not finding (at that time) a high efficiency speaker without significant shortcomings I commissioned a unique pair of speakers to be created and from there have tried a number of amps with them. (Commissioning speakers took more guts than brains or money.) And my man cave (audio in front, office in back) was nearly free as part of building our house 10 years ago.
Would I invest the same in speakers again today, it'd be a pair of stand-mounts (maybe a sealed pair of Omega with RS5 drivers) with a "swarm" of subwoofers (search Audio Circle to learn why multiple bass sources should be used in-room).
Come to think of it, adding subwoofer(s) would relieve your 3A's of bass load, allowing them to play more freely with the new amp. Even two would help with standing waves and reduce with the bass load. After all, the 3A's are only 2 - 3 dB less efficient than Omega.
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IMO having an Audio Note 300B SET is nothing short of a provocation to try a good pair single driver speakers. Trying to compare your 3A to an Omega is like trying to compare apples to oranges. The 3A may win out in the top end but few if any speaker I've heard can touch Omegas for their midrange, imaging, and UN boomy transparent bass. Nothing I've heard is faster either, not even electrostatics. The directness of the Omega sound is like nothing I've heard. You won't likely miss your tweeter. There is a myth going around that single driver speakers can't handle complex music as well as a multi way. Not true. If anything, the opposite is true. One of the things I love about any Omega is how deep they can dig into any recording - simple or complex. Unlike most multi way speakers Omegas are amazing for retaining their dynamics at low volumes.
I realize the 3A is a legendary speaker and it's design is about as good as it gets for a 2 way, but it never will have the directness a single driver speaker has with it's single point source, and nothing I've heard works with a SET like a good single driver speaker.
The latest de Capo BE is rated @ 92dB efficient, the Super Alnico @ 93dB (rather conservative in my personal experience), the Super 7 @ 95dB, and the Super 3 @ 94.5dB. On a flea/low powered amp even 1 dB of efficiency can make a difference , not to mention there is nothing in the signal path of an Omega. All Omegas have ultra lightweight drivers that work well with the low damping factor of SET amps. The 8" carbon fiber driver of the 3A with what appears to be a rubber surround is no doubt heavier than any Omega driver which are paper or hemp based with fabric surround.
Don't think I'm bashing your 3As, I'm not. I'm just drawing what I believe to be a fair comparison between two completely different speaker designs, and I feel the Omega will be better suited to your SET. All you can do is try, and if you don't like the Omegas, there's always the 30 return policy.
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Good sales job! :D
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Good sales job! :D
+1 :lol:
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Canada Rob is a discrete dealer, the Omega Alnico/hemp are superb.
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Canada Rob,
Thank you very much for chiming in. I am very interested in trying the Omega. The primary reason I am belaboring this is that my cash flow situation is such that I have to sell what I currently have to fund any changes that I would make. It's always been that way, unfortunately, and usually I have made choices that I've been very happy with. For example, I feel that my Audio Note Kit 1 wipes the floor with the Manley Mahi push-pull mono-blocks I previously had, at least in every parameter that really matters to me. That amplifier has brought me closer than ever to the experience of "being carried away by music" rather than "listening analytically to gear." So I am very happy there.
I am, however, tempted by what I might hear given a speaker that really does not in any way hold the amplifier back, but lets it really show what it can do.
If I do make such a move, my two major contenders are the Tekton Lore 2.0 and the Omega 7 XRS. I know that there has already been a thread on this forum discussing the differences between Tekton and Omega, so I'm not asking for a rehash of that discussion here. (That is, unless someone wants to have at it one more time.) :lol:
Decisions, decisions!
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Tekton Lore 2.0? If it comes to that, keep your de Capos. Seriously, likely no contest, even with your SET.
Also, Tekton and Omega are worlds apart in their presentation and really shouldn't be considered in the same application.
Trying to choose between those two brands is sort of like; should I buy a motorcycle or a car? Both work, both have their place, but the experience will be totally different.
Sadly, quite a few prospective buyers look at Tekton and Zu when they look at Omega. They may have a flea powered SET or are considering one so their first priority is finding a speaker that's rated very efficient in the specs (which can be very misleading due to crossover losses and exaggeration).
If high SPLs are your priority, go for Tekton or Zu, if a lifelike three dimensional presentation along with accurate tonal quality is your priority, go for Omegas. The Omegas will not go as loud as Tekton or Zu, but they'll go loud enough to get hearing damage.
Personally, if I owned and loved a pair of 3A de Capos I would think twice about parting with them on a gamble. Maybe you could sell your spouses car to fund some Omegas. Public transit is better today than it was 100 years ago. :lol:
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Say, rebbi.
I don't recall your saying where you are located, but have you sought out anyone near you who owns Omega speakers (and is willing to have you audition them)?
I'm going to hear them in 11 days!
Michael
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Rebbe- I have a Decware Rachael amp and ZP3 phono stage driving Omega 7XRS speakers (the walnut pair on the webpage actually) and I am beyond happy. We have over 150 hours on the speakers and I will post some comments later this weekend, BUT I have about and hour and a half before my bride comes home so I have so listening to do….enjoy. Chris
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Chris, I am extremely interested in your impressions. Please do post and share!
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Rebbi- The whole single driver speaker (7XRS in my case) presents a seamless transition of the instruments or voices. What I mean is that as a piece of music is playing, the ability to listen to as a whole, or to pick out individual instruments and follow their lines is easy. It is just right there in front of you. I never once in my listening to the 7's think that there is top end missing because there is no tweeter. I am adding an Omega sub (8'') that I should receive early next month. It's not that I feel the bass is missing, in fact it is the most complete sounding bass I have every heard in my home. The Peter Gabriel album ''Plays Live'' that I was listening to last weekend, and the song Humdrum has Tony Levin playing bass there are so many little fill in notes that he is playing as he move between the chords. It is so easy to hear every detail on a recording. I am adding the sub just to flesh out the very lowest notes of bass pedals (I still have my set of Moog Taurus pedals) so things like early Genesis, Yes, Rush have the low end grunt. I can sit and the music just washes over me. Lorenna McKinnet's Nights from the Alhambra album has so many different instruments playing different melodies and rhythm and you can hear everything, nothing is buried. The speed of the driver sounds faster than the electrostatics's I used to listen to. Soundstage is huge, and I have not experimented with placement yet. I just placed them where my old Sequerra's were, measured the distance off the back wall (back of the cabinet is 15'' off the wall) and have a very slight toe in. Side to side, height and depth is fantastic. Of course that is also based on the recording, but I have not played any recording and doubted my purchase of Omega's or Decware. Even Frankie Goes to Hollywood's 45 rpm of Relax just rocked the house last night. Listening to some cello music right now and it is eerie how life like it is. Does it sound like a 9' Steinway Grand piano in my living room? No, and I don't want a 9' grand in my living room but it sure sounds like a window into a space. Sorry for the ramble, and I am actually have a tough time expressing my thoughts on these other than totally happy. If you are wavering on making a purchase, I cannot speak higher about this product. I am happy, and amazed daily. Happy listening, Chris.
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:thumb:
hdrider,
That report is clearly from the heart. It sure works for me. I can't wait to finally hear what you're hearing. May fifth.....mark you calendars!
:D
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Tekton Lore 2.0? If it comes to that, keep your de Capos. Seriously, likely no contest, even with your SET.
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Personally, if I owned and loved a pair of 3A de Capos I would think twice about parting with them on a gamble. Maybe you could sell your spouses car to fund some Omegas. Public transit is better today than it was 100 years ago. :lol:
Hi, Canada Rob,
Thanks for the honest assessment.
I understand that the Lore 2.0 and the Omega are very different animals, indeed. Given what I value - texture, seamlessness/coherence, tonal purity, imaging and soundstage and the ability to listen "into" the music, I suspect that the Omega's could be a great fit for me. How they'd compare to my De Capos is a very interesting question. But I have no way of knowing that without doing a direct comparison. I may try to see if there's any way I can finance a trial of the Omega's without first having to part with the De Capo's.
As to your assertion that my SET would sound better with the De Capo's than with the Tekton's, it's interesting that you should say that. I started this thread (http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1429587251&openfrom&52&4#52) on Audiogon about good value speakers for SET amps. There's a fellow there with the moniker Mikirob who has compared the De Capo to the Lore and M-Lore in his own system, powered by a Coincident Dynamo 34 SE, which I believe is an EL-34-based SEP integrated. You can see there that he thinks it's no contest, but the other way around! For example, he writes:
"For $1,500 bucks you cannot do better. My De Capo vs Tekton-Lore shoot-out was no contest in the bass, Tekton clear winner! On every other parameter the Tekton was as good or better. Tim Smith liked the M-Lore better than his Harbeth 7s amongst others. The Lore is even better.
If you got $2,100 for the De Capo I'd get the Lore 2.0 for $900 (8 ohm, 98db, 30hz) with the money left over get a good power cord and interconnects. It will kill the De Capo."
Horses for courses, as the Brits say.
As for selling my spouse's car to fund the Omega's, well, given that she's driving a 2004 Honda Accord, I'm not quite sure the sale of her car would cover the speakers. :lol:
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Rebbi- The whole single driver speaker (7XRS in my case) presents a seamless transition of the instruments or voices. What I mean is that as a piece of music is playing, the ability to listen to as a whole, or to pick out individual instruments and follow their lines is easy. It is just right there in front of you.
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Sorry for the ramble, and I am actually have a tough time expressing my thoughts on these other than totally happy. If you are wavering on making a purchase, I cannot speak higher about this product. I am happy, and amazed daily. Happy listening, Chris.
Chris, no need to apologize for the "ramble." I loved reading your impressions which were well expressed! It sounds like we like some of the same music and value a lot of the same things, audio-wise. What I've loved most about my De Capo's (and the Dulcets before them) is their coherence or seamlessness. The performance is all of one piece. Percussion sounds like a person playing a drum kit, and not just "banging." Listening to music is delicious and relaxing because my brain isn't working overtime to decipher what I'm hearing. As you've said, it's hard to describe but you know it when you hear it.
Golly, if the Omega's could better the De Capo's, I'd never leave the listening room - well, maybe for meals and bathing, but that'd be it. :) Oh, yeah, and for earning a living and supporting the family, but that'd be all.
Thanks again for sharing. Glad you're so happy. :D
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Had a very nice chat with Louis yesterday. He's a pleasure to talk to.
He still recommends the Super 7 XRS for my amp and room, although another possibility is the Super Alnico monitor, which I'm guessing would be somewhat over my budget. He told me (if I'm getting this right) that the 7 XRS has a slightly more forward quality than the Alnico, not shouty or rough in the "bad single driver" sense, just more in the presence region.
I asked about break in time and he said about 80 hours if done properly, which means playing bass-heavy music (he favors reggae for this!) at moderate to loud volumes in order to get the speaker cone moving and loosening up.
He agreed that the De Capo tries to get some things right that other multi-way speakers don't: light, carbon fiber cone, time alignment, mostly mechanical crossover, but there's still that rubber surround and the mix of cone and dome drivers.
Anyway, good conversation and I'm still intrigued.
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v
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Canada Rob excellent description. I have owned several Omega Loudspeakers and now just arriving
Finally my Alnico 6.5 XRS speakers. One thing that totally blew away all listeners was when listening
To great voices such as Pavarotti ,or Simon and Garfunkle. That texture of the surrounding instruments and
Natural depth and tonal accuracy was stunning. it brought an emotional realism rarely
Ever heard on cd or vinyl. The better the electronics the more you will be able to read into the sound .
That was with a Red wine Sig 15 .. With my Jas 2.3 SET amp unbelievably 3 dimentional.
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I have owned the tekton Lores with Mundorf silver oil cap upgrade,it was very respectable but not in the league of the Alnico6.you talk about seamless ness . Canada Rob made a very good point the driver weight, and mass
Has a lot to do with your speed and detail. And for seamlessness you will get none better then the Omega.
For stability the build structure of the driver is very important as well as Magnet.
The Alnico-6 driver look at it's build it is 2-3 X better built then any Scanspeak in a 7 inch driver for example
It is a custom made purpose built driver, look how thick the frame is and the huge Alnico magnet.
This is the one BIG difference then any off the shelf driver . It is Hand made ,not mass produced !!
This along with the very labor intensive 4 layer cabinet,each cabinet is designed for each specific driver and port tuned .
These take days to build,not hours .I have also owned Zu speakers again no qualitymade cabinet what so ever
And not in this class .It is like Mercedes vs Kia. you will hear the difference in quality.
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So, if you folks had a choice between the Super 7 XRS floor stander and the Alnico monitor, which way would you go?
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Go for Alnico and Hemp imo.
Consider any Alnico/Hemp in the market=Omega.
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So, if you folks had a choice between the Super 7 XRS floor stander and the Alnico monitor, which way would you go?
rebbi,
I've had the Alnico Monitors now for a couple months and am in a much larger listen space than yours. First of all the Alnico Monitors are Large compared to most Monitors. Mine are located about 3.5 feet from the front wall and have very nice Bass using my Decware 2 watt Super Zen. Soundstage and Imagining are the best I've heard in my listening room.
You noted that your speakers would have to be located relatively close to the front wall (this will tend to reinforce the lower frequencies). My concern here would be that the Towers might overpower your Smallish room on the low end ??? I've had a number of Towers (Not Omega) over the years and often it is a placement compromise. Too close to the front wall and they can get Boomy. Out from the front wall and Imaging is good but Bass lightens up. Move closer to the Front wall and Bass sounds good but Imaging can be dimished.
Based on my personal experience over the years, I prefer a Monitor with the addition of a musical sub like the DeepOmega if additional Bass impact is desired. Monitors are easier to place (take up less space) and tend to be a bit quicker (Very Clean). A separate sub allows you to dial in the proper amount of Bass reinforcement per your room and personal taste while being able to place the Monitors where they Image and sound best.
My guess is the Super 7 Monitor would likely do much better than you think in your room. If you decided to add a DeepOmega 8 sub down the road that would be killer. Hdrider has done a fine job describing the qualities of the Omega, the imaging & soundstage. Unfortunately it's kind of like the Matrix (the movie), no one can tell you what IT IS, you have to see it for yourself (or in this case hear it for yourself). When I first hooked up my Omega Monitors I was not prepared for what I was about to hear. I was like WOW, now I get what "IT IS" that Omega owners are talking about.
It's not very often in the Audio World that a product actually lives up to all the Hype. Like hdrider, I have never enjoyed home audio more than with my Omega's.
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I would consider the super 7 mk2 or the super 3xrs + 8' omega sub. i find the 2.1 setup most enjoyable for home theater. I perfer the 45 or 2A3 tube over the 300b. Plenty of inexpensive set amps on Audiogon to pick from. the super 3xrs replaced my Green Mountain Audio Rio's a couple years ago. It was a leap of faith but Louis's insight has never disappointed me. Single driver speakers can be a bit addictive.
Dwight
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I would consider the super 7 mk2 or the super 3xrs + 8' omega sub. i find the 2.1 setup most enjoyable for home theater. I perfer the 45 or 2A3 tube over the 300b. Plenty of inexpensive set amps on Audiogon to pick from. the super 3xrs replaced my Green Mountain Audio Rio's a couple years ago. It was a leap of faith but Louis's insight has never disappointed me. Single driver speakers can be a bit addictive.
Dwight
happyrabbit,
Interesting that you had GMA Rio's. I had them briefly, too. Thought that with the whole "time coherent" thing they'd float my boat, but they never did.
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Still out here, still considering. :lol:
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Hello, Rebbi.
CanadaRob is welcome to fill in details that I may leave out, but I did visit him on May 5th and got to listen to the Alnico, 7s, and 3i speakers. All three models were monitors. Apparently, all three were very new and had not yet broken in, so I don't actually know how they might sound once they're properly broken in.
Anyway, for my purposes, my ears, and my room size (and WAF size), the 3i was the clear winner for me. Sure, I'll pair one or more subwoofers to it to fill out the low end, but it won the contest that night. I was really surprised to see just how big the Alnico monitors are - they're HUGE!
Of course, YMMV, but this was what I came away with.
Michael
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Hello, Rebbi.
CanadaRob is welcome to fill in details that I may leave out, but I did visit him on May 5th and got to listen to the Alnico, 7s, and 3i speakers. All three models were monitors. Apparently, all three were very new and had not yet broken in, so I don't actually know how they might sound once they're properly broken in.
Anyway, for my purposes, my ears, and my room size (and WAF size), the 3i was the clear winner for me. Sure, I'll pair one or more subwoofers to it to fill out the low end, but it won the contest that night. I was really surprised to see just how big the Alnico monitors are - they're HUGE!
Of course, YMMV, but this was what I came away with.
Michael
Interesting, Michael. How large a room would you be using them in? What kind of amplification? I have a feeling that the Alnico monitors might be a stretch for me. I only have a pair of 24" stands; good ones, but they'd probably be way too tall for such big monitors. Interesting to me that you preferred the 3's to the 7's!
Thanks for the info!
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Currently, I listen to most of my music in a near-field setup in my home office. The 3i are ideal for this (IMHO). The 7s sounded thin, lacked bass, and there wasn't much of a sound stage. [I'll explain some things that influenced my listening experience for each speaker.]
The Alnicos were driven by a Decware tube amp with a Resonessence Concero DAC.
The 7s were powered by an inexpensive class D amp (don't recall which one) with the smallest/weakest Resonessence portable DAC. The 7s were not positioned correctly, so they did not sound their best.
The 3s were on a desk in a near-field setup. It seems to me another class D amp powered them. I don't recall the DAC.
My main system is an AVA 400R Fet valve amp, AVA T8 tube preamp, Cambridge Audio DAC Magic Plus, computer as source, and occasionally an old Sony TT. The 400R is overkill for any of the Omega speakers. I purchased the 400R last year when I fully expected to buy a big, not-so-efficient pair of speakers. It turns out I'm not likely to buy those speakers.
Gotta go for now.
Michael
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Full range drivers perform better around mid frequencies,bass and treble are compromises... :green:
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Full range drivers perform better around mid frequencies,bass and treble are compromises... :green:
G Georgopoulos, Interesting observation. I have the Omega 6 Monitors driven with a Decware amp and find no weakness in the upper frequencies. The highs actually sound better than multi-way speakers I have owned in the past. Which Omega's do you own and what amp are you driving them with ???
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Full range drivers perform better around mid frequencies,bass and treble are compromises... :green:
The RS5 drivers have better highs than a great majority of dedicated tweeters. IMO they are up there with the best beryllium domes and ribbons although the extension isn't as high they are very neutral and detailed. Most speakers are compromised in bass to some extent, that's why we have subwoofers. :)
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I too am considering Omega, so much so that I sent an e-mail to Louis on Saturday with intent to buy a pair of 3i monitors. I plan to use them in my computer audio system where they will be replacing a pair of Pioneer sp-bs22lr speakers. I recently upgraded the rest of my desktop system, and felt that I might be leaving a lot of SQ on the table by using entry level speakers.
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G Georgopoulos, Interesting observation. I have the Omega 6 Monitors driven with a Decware amp and find no weakness in the upper frequencies. The highs actually sound better than multi-way speakers I have owned in the past. Which Omega's do you own and what amp are you driving them with ???
Most audiophiles don't recognize how low/high of frequencies they listen to (or how loud of levels they listen).
Many older ears can't hear 15,000 Hz and many single driver fans have acclimated to lack of deep bass.
Years ago I took my big single driver speakers (F3 about 27 Hz) to a small audiofest of single driver enthusiasts and nearly all were gobsmacked by the bass (I actually got the impression that they didn't like it and felt that it wasn't "right"). At a similar gathering the big built-in subs kept getting turned down/off. With tiny SET amps it's no wonder acclimation would happen (as bass takes much more energy to produce). Note that even the huge Klipschorns (designed decades ago to complement SETs) that use room corners to complete their design, are only rated down to 40 Hz.
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Currently, I listen to most of my music in a near-field setup in my home office. The 3i are ideal for this (IMHO). The 7s sounded thin, lacked bass, and there wasn't much of a sound stage. [I'll explain some things that influenced my listening experience for each speaker.]
The Alnicos were driven by a Decware tube amp with a Resonessence Concero DAC.
The 7s were powered by an inexpensive class D amp (don't recall which one) with the smallest/weakest Resonessence portable DAC. The 7s were not positioned correctly, so they did not sound their best.
The 3s were on a desk in a near-field setup. It seems to me another class D amp powered them. I don't recall the DAC.
My main system is an AVA 400R Fet valve amp, AVA T8 tube preamp, Cambridge Audio DAC Magic Plus, computer as source, and occasionally an old Sony TT. The 400R is overkill for any of the Omega speakers. I purchased the 400R last year when I fully expected to buy a big, not-so-efficient pair of speakers. It turns out I'm not likely to buy those speakers.
Gotta go for now.
Michael
Michael and his lovely wife Melody were here for several hours and what great company they were. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I hope readers don't miss construe what Michael was saying: the Super 3i is not better than the Super Alnico Monitor. As far as the sound went he loved the Super Alnico Monitor and preferred it above the others. It was on the Super Alnico Monitors he did almost all his listening. On the other two, we only listened to one song on each - hardly a way to pass judgement. He was not prepared for the large size of the Super Alnico Monitor, hence for his application, he preferred the Super 3i, and in his shoes, so would I.
After that, we switched to the Super 7 Monitors, with as he said, a much lesser (not weaker in the true sense of the word) front end. Going down instead of up can give a very unfair advantage to the lower end system, and that was part of the problem. As far as the 7s being "incorrectly" positioned which made them sound thinner than the Alnicos, "incorrectly" was: they were out into the room for the sake of image depth, not to mention that part of the room has challenging acoustics. After Michael left I moved the 7s closer to the wall which fleshed out the sound quite nicely. As far as the 7s imaging poorly, it's news to me. On a previous post I mentioned running the Super 7s in my main system with Decware/Concero HD. The sound was off the charts good.
Next, we went to the Super 3i on the desktop. The 3i has been (along with the Super 3 desktop) my go to speaker for the desktop and reigns supreme there. They also have about $1600 worth of electronics in front of them. Currently one of the finest desktop systems I've heard, so the Super 7 in it's compromised part of the room didn't stand a chance. I am considering not having a stereo in that part of the room until I can sort out the acoustics. I also feel the Super 7 may need a little bit of patience as far as break in goes.
JLM makes a good point about aging ears and it amazes me how loud some customers want to hear the music - it almost drives me out of the room. I had my hearing checked about two years ago and according to the audiologist, I have excellent hearing. I sometimes wonder if the reason people like G Georgopoulos (who has never added one iota to the Omega AudioCircle) talk about single driver speakers as being compromised in the top end is because their hearing is compromised. The most laid back speaker Louis ever made was the Hoyt Bedford and I thought they had a nice top end with great soundstage depth. Protect your hearing, without it you're out of the hobby, or worse, out of business.
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I emphatically agree with Canada Rob about protecting hearing. I have some loss and use aids. Both genetic and many years of loud concerts and music in the car (all prior to walkman's debut in the '80's). I keep a sound pressure level meter by my listening position and keep the volume below 80db except for occasional peaks (C weighted). I don't want to lose any more!
.........Peter
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Hi, Rob.
I'm afraid I was on a tight time leash when I began my reply, so much information pertinent to my experience was left out.
Of the three models in your showroom, the 3i best fits my needs because of its size and speed. If I had a proper sized room in which I could locate larger speakers, I would reconsider my choice. There's also an excellent chance I will take these to Taiwan this year since my room there is only approx. 8.5' x 9.5'.
As for my passing judgement...well, everyone passes judgements based on their personal experience, no? :)
Many thanks to both Rob and my wife for allowing me the time to visit and to get a better idea of what makes Omega speakers 'tick'.
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I emphatically agree with Canada Rob about protecting hearing. I have some loss and use aids. Both genetic and many years of loud concerts and music in the car (all prior to walkman's debut in the '80's). I keep a sound pressure level meter by my listening position and keep the volume below 80db except for occasional peaks (C weighted). I don't want to lose any more!
.........Peter
I even have included my OSHA approved ear muffs in my system profile. :wink:
Headphone/earbud use is even worse than speakers. Used open air headphones for 3 months in college. Worked great for my neighbors in the dorm, but found that it was easy to turn it up too loud.
Public Service Announcement: Extended exposure to over 80 dB will result in permanent hearing loss and possible tinnitus (permanent pain).
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I even have included my OSHA approved ear muffs in my system profile. :wink:
Headphone/earbud use is even worse than speakers. Used open air headphones for 3 months in college. Worked great for my neighbors in the dorm, but found that it was easy to turn it up too loud.
Public Service Announcement: Extended exposure to over 80 dB will result in permanent hearing loss and possible tinnitus (permanent pain).
JLM, that is some excellent advice that I wish someone would have given me many years ago!
Between loud music, racing motcross in the 70's and drag racing my hearing is not what it could be.
I have been talking to my grandson, has headphones on quite a bit, about protecting his hearing.
Have a good one!
Bob2
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What is the restocking charge?
Thanks,
UL
[quohttp://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=130031.0te author=Canada Rob link=topic=134140.msg1424002#msg1424002 date=1429891397]
All you can do is try, and if you don't like the Omegas, there's always the 30 return policy.
[/quote]
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What is the restocking charge?
Thanks,
UL
[quohttp://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=130031.0te author=Canada Rob link=topic=134140.msg1424002#msg1424002 date=1429891397]
All you can do is try, and if you don't like the Omegas, there's always the 30 return policy.
Not sure because I don't have one up here in Canada. You'll have to ask Louis.
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I could never imagine sending my 7XRS's back, even fresh out of the box knowing that breaking we needed they were so eye opening. The whole SET / Class A/Tube/Single driver things is a mind twister. Loving it all. Happy Listening, Chris.
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Hrider,
I am totally with you on the SET magic thing. My Manley push-pulls were quite good but the 300B SET I built last winter blows it away. That's why, despite my real affection for my Reference 3A De Capo's, I am so tempted to pull the trigger on a pair of 7 XRS's or Alnico monitors. If they were any better than the De Capo's with my amp I might never leave the house!
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Hmmm- no response from G. G above. Not surprised. I have been an ''industry participant'' in audio a few times in my adult working life and have owned some nice multi-way(ribbon tweeters to 46k) and sold some very nice multi-way speakers systems but…and that is the TOUGH part about this whole SET/Single Driver (and soon to be sub) thing. You have to forget all the crap you have been reading and listen with your mind and body. IF you listen to music, don't buy into the whole bigger/better/more nonsense you can learn a lot. I am tapping my toes, stomping my feet and smiling like R.P. McMurphy in the loonie bin. It took a long time and one little 2 watt Zen amp to redirect my mojo, and then a HUGE leap of faith to buy the gear. I have never bought gear that I didn't listen to in my home (for a few weeks). I would stop considering Omega, and make the call to Louis. I talked to him this last weekend, what a gent! Like everything, we all have opinions and you are all entitled to your .02 cent refund for reading through this mini-rant…Buy the speakers, Buy the Amps, buy the sources /media you LOVE and get you mojo juices going!! Happy listening, Chris
P.S. anyone near Santa Cruz, Ca who doesn't own Decware / Omega is encouraged to drop me a line if you want to listen….Chris.
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Hi, Omega aficionados,
Well, I thought I would report on my ongoing speaker choice journey.
I know that some of the folks on this forum have objected in the past to comparisons between the Tekton line and the Omega line as being "apples versus oranges." Given that I have not had the opportunity to audition Omega's in person, I will assume that Tekton and Omega are very, very different, as other posters have suggested. Yet, it is natural to compare them because they are both moderately priced, very efficient loudspeakers that anyone who is looking for a match with a low-power tube amp is likely to consider.
By the way, before you protest that this is an Omega forum and that discussion of Tekton is inappropriate, I'm still considering Omega – see below.
I came upon someone in my locale who is selling a pair of Tekton Lore Reference towers and who was gracious enough to lend me the pair for a few days. These are relatively small towers, about 36 inches high and 10 inches wide. These do not use the 10 inch, Eminence "guitar driver," but a proprietary, 8 inch unit that seems to be made of treated paper with a treated, pleated cloth surround. It is paired with a small, SEAS, soft dome tweeter with a large surround.
Remember that I am comparing this to my current speakers, the Reference 3A De Capo monitors, a classic and very highly respected design.
The Lore Reference retails for $799 in stock form, is 96 dB efficient and is rated down to 37 Hz.
To my great surprise, I would say that in most respects it is the equal of the De Capo and that in some respects it is its superior.
With just a slight bit of toe in, the Lore Reference throws a much larger and more immersive sound stage than the De Capo, far more immersive and holographic. I also think that it does a better job of nailing instrumental tonality – saxophones, for example, had a realism that the that De Capo does not seem to muster and strings sound beautiful. The Reference also does a far more convincing job with orchestral music.
The presentation is quite different than the De Capo. The De Capo tends to give a window into the performance from between the speakers, occasionally extending beyond the perimeter of the speaker cabinets. The Lore Reference generates a tall, wide sound field that seems to splash the performance over the front wall behind the speakers. I have not messed very much with speaker placement. I would be curious to see how soundstage depth changes with some more distance from the back wall, but I have been unable to move my De Capo's which are attached with blue tack to extremely heavy, sand-filled welded speaker stands. Ideally, I would probably want to move them further apart and a bit further out from the back wall.
Three other points.
First, the De Capo is rated down to 42 Hz and the Lore Reference, as I have mentioned, down to 37 Hz. I don't know what actual in room response I am getting, but I will say that the 5 Hz makes a difference. Having a speaker that nudges closer to the bottom octave really fill things out, and the bass from the Lore Reference is very well controlled and not mushy or "one-note."
Second, I would guess that the Lore Reference exhibits imaging which is not quite as specific as the De Capo. I would describe it as different rather than inferior.
Third, there is definitely something to be said for pairing a 300 B SET amplifier with a much more efficient speaker. I'm guessing that's a lot of what I have been hearing – music flows more easily and I'm guessing it's partly because the amp has more breathing room.
Okay, as for Omega:
I think that, realistically, in terms of finances, if I am going to take a chance with a trial on an Omega Speaker, it is going to be the 7 XRS Tower. I am basing this on several considerations.
First, I would be funding this purchase based upon the sale of my current gear, and I am guessing that I will fall short of the Alnico Monitors.
Second, the 7 XRS is slightly more efficient and digs slightly deeper than the Alnico Monitor, which I think might suit my circumstances better.
Finally, I am increasingly liking the idea of the simplicity of a tower speaker that does not require a separate stand, and if I can sell my stands, it will get me a little closer to a better speaker.
If you have read this far, thank you.
I am very interested in your reactions and comments.
Again, let me emphasize that my discussion of the Tekton Lore Reference is not intended to be trolling or anything of the sort! That's not who I am. I am just gathering information and this seems to be the best place to do it.
Thank you!
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Hi rebbi,
Great evaluation and thank you for sharing this with us. I have the 7 Monitors and have played them on SET and Class D and they shine on both, yet are different. As far as the imaging of any Omega goes, the soundstage is big, deep, and really well focused. The 7 is fast, punchy, and detailed - one of the most enjoyable Omegas I've heard. The 7XRS should be utterly sublime on your 300B. I've heard that's a very good amp. :D
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Hi rebbi,
Great evaluation and thank you for sharing this with us. I have the 7 Monitors and have played them on SET and Class D and they shine on both, yet are different. As far as the imaging of any Omega goes, the soundstage is big, deep, and really well focused. The 7 is fast, punchy, and detailed - one of the most enjoyable Omegas I've heard. The 7XRS should be utterly sublime on your 300B. I've heard that's a very good amp. :D
Thank you, Rob. I'm glad you found this evaluation useful and interesting. Thanks, as well, for your assessment of the 7 XRS. If I go ahead and audition Omega, I think that's the way I will go, for all the reasons enumerated above. I am as prone as the next audiophile to the obsessive "wanting to hear the best of the best" syndrome, but at a certain point economics and other realities come into play and you have to be happy with what you have. :D
Yes, the Audio Note Kits Kit 1 is a great amp. I had an absolute blast building it and the final result is really something. There may be better sounding 300 B amplifiers out there, but not at the asking price of the Kit 1, I reckon. Besides, Audio Note Kits is a Canadian company, based in Ottawa, so how can you go wrong? :lol:
By the way, for anybody who is interested, I have a little audioblog on which, among a few other things, I have blogged my building of the Kit 1 amplifier. The blog is right here (http://stevefolberg.wordpress.com).
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Correction to my monster post, above. It should have said that the Lore Reference main driver has a "cloth surround."
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Rebbi - We have the 7XRS's for over 8 weeks now and we spend last Saturday afternoon after a great sushi dinner till 11pm listening to records (ok and a couple of cd's) and I have to say they are a fantastic speakers. The Rachael drives them with delicacy and gusto. I too also had to sell off gear to afford these and although it took some time, I do not regret the decision. Glad you had a chance to listen to the Tekton's. Take advantage of the Omega offer of a trial. Happy listening, Chris.
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Rebbi - We have the 7XRS's for over 8 weeks now and we spend last Saturday afternoon after a great sushi dinner till 11pm listening to records (ok and a couple of cd's) and I have to say they are a fantastic speakers. The Rachael drives them with delicacy and gusto. I too also had to sell off gear to afford these and although it took some time, I do not regret the decision. Glad you had a chance to listen to the Tekton's. Take advantage of the Omega offer of a trial. Happy listening, Chris.
Chris,
Thanks a lot for your reply. You're a bass player, correct? And you were considering pairing the 7 XRS with a sub, if I remember correctly? Where are you going with that, if you don't mind? Also, what was your break in experience like?
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Hi Rebbi,
I saw your build blog on your ANK 300B. You did a nice tidy job IMO. :thumb:
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The Tektron Lore 8" driver rebbi refers to looks like an Emenince Alpha series. Not proprietary. An excellent driver in any case.
steve
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The Tektron Lore 8" driver rebbi refers to looks like an Emenince Alpha series. Not proprietary. An excellent driver in any case.
steve
There was talk on another forum about this....trying to determine what exactly was proprietary about it. They took their Tekton's apart and the photo's and markings of the driver looked identical to that of the standard driver posted on the Eminence website.
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Hi Rebbi,
I saw your build blog on your ANK 300B. You did a nice tidy job IMO. :thumb:
Hi, Rob,
Thanks a lot for the kind words about the build. I had so much fun doing it... I find working with my hands to be so therapeutic and so different than my day job... it's a great way to relax. You also learn so much by building your own gear. I enjoyed the process so much that I was sort of sad when it was finished! Brian Smith of Audio Note Kits was also thrilled with the blog, as you might imagine. Great publicity for the company. :thumb:
I'd like to continue the blog and if I end up with Omega's I'll certainly publish about that, as well.
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The Tektron Lore 8" driver rebbi refers to looks like an Emenince Alpha series. Not proprietary. An excellent driver in any case.
steve
That could very well be. Come to think of it, I believe I read somewhere that that 8-incher is made by Eminence. Here's what it looks like up close in the Lore Reference:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122604)
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Rebbi - Yes, I am a musician (bass guitar, Moog Taurus bass pedals, vocals) when I was actively playing way, way back '74 thru '86 or so. Worked a lot with an original three piece band for year (kybd, bass, drums ELP type) doing so pretty complex progressive covers that lead to some short more air play friendly originals. Recorded a 12'' four song EP and after that ran it course of 6 or 7 years was brought into a band designed just to do covers for $$$$. Great guys, lots of great songs and too much gear. Now days I mix Front of House, monitors and run the recording studio at my local church. I play with them once in a while when they need a fill in, but a twangy Rickenbacker bass and Moog pedal add a way different twist to contemporary worship music. Fun none the less. Then there is the regular day job on top of all the music. I don't listen too loud at home, not wanting to over power the room. But it does rock. Classical music is so alive. Tone, texture and soundstage just ooze from the system now. I am working with Louis on a 8'' sub, should be on it's way to the west coast in a couple of weeks. The 7XRS have plenty of mid-bass for me, drums have the attack and tone that I want but when I am listening to some old Genesis (think Trick of the Tail) I need to have the bottom grunt, I never expected the 7's to do that and they do an amazing job already. The fundamental pedal tone and filter tone is there but not the lowest part. On stage my Moog ran through a 18'' in a folded horn driven with 200 real watts. Then what ever was coming out the PA was bigger and badder.
I love the 7XRS's and I am so so happy with the decision to purchase them. I know the sub will just flesh out the very last nuance of music, acoustic space/recording venue that the 7's do so well now. Actually I can see a second 8'' down the road sometime. If you told me a year ago that I would own speakers that I had never heard myself….well I would have just chuckled and asked if you wanted something else to drink. Love the Omega, Love the Decware…learning to live through the last of this remodel. Happy Listening, Chris.
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Hi Chris,
Thanks for the reply. I was a huge ELP fan back in the day (saw the "Works" tour live but after they had to ditch the orchestra)!
Still wondering about your (or others') break-in experience with the 7 XRS.
Best wishes!
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Rebbi - I realized after I hit the send key, I never really answered you initial inquiry. Sorry for the diversion. I rec'd the 7's on 4-9-15 and got home, hooked them up and had to leave for the evening with them playing one of Gigi's Pandora station. I knew fresh out of the box that I had made the right decision. There was a cohesiveness or ''oneness'' to the sound that I had heard only on two speakers, Acoustat Fours and Teresonic. I got home around 9pm and watched a little TV (everything goes thru the stereo) and the same trait was present. I set up a CD on repeat and asked Gigi to turn on the Rachael when she left the house for work and let it play at a good volume. So by my return Friday after work the speakers had 17 hours on them. I grabbed a few Cd's (Mary Black, Lorenna McKinnet, ) and sat down for a listen. The bass had started to flesh out, midrange was open and detailed and the top end was all present. I was blown away. How can a single driver do it all? Since we both work a very long week and were in the middle of an interior remodel, Friday night was dinner and a little TV and off to bed. Saturday they played from 6am while we painted up stairs until 5pm when we started dinner. so now we are near 30 hours. Grabbed some records and let it rip. More definition all through the spectrum. Gigi turned to me and stated " I could not figure out why you had to change speakers from the Sequerra's, but now I get it'' Huge smile on her face. We did the same break in thing during the week when we both worked and when she was home she always has music on. By that following Friday we had close to 80+ hours and things had locked in. I played with the speaker location, slight toe in and the sound stage is wide, tall and deep. That's when I played some older Genesis, ELP, Yes, and I determined that I would order a sub from Louis. Most music doesn't need it really, but I have always had some kind of sub so it made sense to me. They are just getting better with time. Last Saturday after emptying a couple of rooms in prep for flooring to be put in, we listened to records from 5pm till 11pm and my wife kept asking play this, play that, let's hear this…you get the idea. Great speakers, great build quality and wonderful to talk to. So happy now to have so much contentment with my choices in the gear I have selected. I first saw ELP during the ''Welcome Back my Friends'' tour, saw the same Works tour you saw w/o orchestra, Black Moon, and then when Keith and Carl play with my friend Robert Berry in 3. I met Keith the day after a local 3 concert but that would be another post…happy listening, Chris.
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Rebbi - I realized after I hit the send key, I never really answered you initial inquiry. Sorry for the diversion. I rec'd the 7's on 4-9-15 and got home, hooked them up and had to leave for the evening with them playing one of Gigi's Pandora station. I knew fresh out of the box that I had made the right decision. There was a cohesiveness or ''oneness'' to the sound that I had heard only on two speakers, Acoustat Fours and Teresonic. I got home around 9pm and watched a little TV (everything goes thru the stereo) and the same trait was present. I set up a CD on repeat and asked Gigi to turn on the Rachael when she left the house for work and let it play at a good volume. So by my return Friday after work the speakers had 17 hours on them. I grabbed a few Cd's (Mary Black, Lorenna McKinnet, ) and sat down for a listen. The bass had started to flesh out, midrange was open and detailed and the top end was all present. I was blown away. How can a single driver do it all? Since we both work a very long week and were in the middle of an interior remodel, Friday night was dinner and a little TV and off to bed. Saturday they played from 6am while we painted up stairs until 5pm when we started dinner. so now we are near 30 hours. Grabbed some records and let it rip. More definition all through the spectrum. Gigi turned to me and stated " I could not figure out why you had to change speakers from the Sequerra's, but now I get it'' Huge smile on her face. We did the same break in thing during the week when we both worked and when she was home she always has music on. By that following Friday we had close to 80+ hours and things had locked in. I played with the speaker location, slight toe in and the sound stage is wide, tall and deep. That's when I played some older Genesis, ELP, Yes, and I determined that I would order a sub from Louis. Most music doesn't need it really, but I have always had some kind of sub so it made sense to me. They are just getting better with time. Last Saturday after emptying a couple of rooms in prep for flooring to be put in, we listened to records from 5pm till 11pm and my wife kept asking play this, play that, let's hear this…you get the idea. Great speakers, great build quality and wonderful to talk to. So happy now to have so much contentment with my choices in the gear I have selected. I first saw ELP during the ''Welcome Back my Friends'' tour, saw the same Works tour you saw w/o orchestra, Black Moon, and then when Keith and Carl play with my friend Robert Berry in 3. I met Keith the day after a local 3 concert but that would be another post…happy listening, Chris.
Thanks so much for the detailed response, Chris!
How cool that you've meet Keith Emerson, too! :rock:
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Well, my De Capo's sold, so I now have a good idea what I have to spend on new speakers.
If I also sell my excellent 24" stands and somehow throw in a few hundred more dollars, I might just be able to scrape together a pair of Alnico monitors, but I wouldn't have decent stands to put them on for quite awhile.
I could also buy a pair of Level 1 finish Super 7 XRS's.
When I spoke yesterday with Louis, he had another brainstorm: to buy a pair of Super 7 Monitors and use them with my stands, and also add his 8" sub. That way I keep my stands and end up with a full range system.
As much as the idea of owning Alnico's, the best of the best, is enticing, I do see some advantages of choosing the 7 monitor or XRS instead. I understand that they are not only the most dynamic of the current drivers (the coming 8" aside) but the also are the most efficient, which can only be a good thing when dealing with a 300B integrated SET amplifier.
I'd love your thoughts on this. Hoping to pull the trigger on something next week.
Thanks!
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Congrats on the sale Rebbi,
If you are willing to use a sub, I'd consider the Super 3xrs along with the sub. That way you'd have the low end you want along with the speed of the RS5 driver and you would still be able to sell your stands. If I'm not mistaken, your room isn't large, so the RS5 would work out really well in there.
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Seikosha,
Thanks for the thoughts. I understand that the 7 driver is the one that takes the most patience to break in and the 3 less so. Louis also said I could do the 3i's plus a sub.
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I would consider these in this order:
1. AlNiCo
2. RS8
3. RS5 or RS7
I have to agree, the 7's took a long time to break in. I have heard at least 2 different RS7 drivers including the Vintage (no longer available) and the RS7 Ferrite. Both took a long time to break-in, but when the did they really really shined. I still find myself quite smitten with the RS7 that Louis built for me and to be honest I go back and forth with wanting the AlNiCo's and not. Some days I do want to upgrade just because what I have is so good that I think I could get even more and some days I really like what I already have and find that there is magic going on and I don't want to break that spell.
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Once you run a sub with an Omega + SET amp setup, have you in any way compromised the SET qualities of coherence, etc., by throwing a sub into the mix? Just curious what you guys think.
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Congrats on the sale Rebbi,
If you are willing to use a sub, I'd consider the Super 3xrs along with the sub. That way you'd have the low end you want along with the speed of the RS5 driver and you would still be able to sell your stands. If I'm not mistaken, your room isn't large, so the RS5 would work out really well in there.
I have had many floor standing speakers over the years and none have matched the performance of my current Alnico Monitors with Sub. Monitors being smaller offer much more placement flexibility (especially in smaller rooms). Often with floorstanders positioning is a compromise between good bass and good imaging. My Klipsch RF-7's produce great Bass but Poor Imaging placed approx 2 feet off the front wall. Great Imaging but lacking Bass out approx 4 feet from the front wall.
IMO the flexibility of a separate Sub provides the best chance of getting the best Bass out of most rooms (especially smaller rooms which I have found to be more difficult with lower frequencies).
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I have had many floor standing speakers over the years and none have matched the performance of my current Alnico Monitors with Sub. Monitors being smaller offer much more placement flexibility (especially in smaller rooms). Often with floorstanders positioning is a compromise between good bass and good imaging. My Klipsch RF-7's produce great Bass but Poor Imaging placed approx 2 feet off the front wall. Great Imaging but lacking Bass out approx 4 feet from the front wall.
IMO the flexibility of a separate Sub provides the best chance of getting the best Bass out of most rooms (especially smaller rooms which I have found to be more difficult with lower frequencies).
Very useful comment, DBC, thanks.
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Once you run a sub with an Omega + SET amp setup, have you in any way compromised the SET qualities of coherence, etc., by throwing a sub into the mix? Just curious what you guys think.
rebbi,
I have seamless integration between my Alnico's and Sub using Speaker Level connections (a second set of speaker wires from the amp to the Sub). This way the Sub is reproducing the same amplifier signature as the monitors.
I have tried Line Level connection (interconnect) from my preamp to the Sub several times and the integration using this connection method is poor in my system.
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rebbi,
I have seamless integration between my Alnico's and Sub using Speaker Level connections (a second set of speaker wires from the amp to the Sub). This way the Sub is reproducing the same amplifier signature as the monitors.
I have tried Line Level connection (interconnect) from my preamp to the Sub several times and the integration using this connection method is poor in my system.
Since my ANK Kit 1 is an integrated amp, I'd be using Speaker Level connections, too. I think that your earlier comments about the flexibility of a sub/sat system with regard to placement is spot on. I have a sneaking suspicion that floor standing speakers just won't work in my room because it's a shared space (doubles as a guest bedroom) and I have limited leeway in placement. I really can't get the back of any speaker much further than 2 feet off the front wall. I now think this may be why, in my room, the Tekton Lore Reference that I borrowed, in spite of all its appealing qualities, seemed to image a little vaguely no matter what I did. So although I've never used a sub before, maybe it really is the way to go. I only wish I could afford your setup of Alnico's + sub. :|
I'd probably be going with 3i or Super 7 + sub.
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One other question, this one more in Fantasy Land. If I could somehow swing a pair of Alnico monitors, how do you think they'd mate with my 8 W, 300B SET. Is that enough juice to make the 93 dB Alnico monitors really sing in a medium/small room?
Thank you all for your inexhaustible patience with my endless questions! :oops:
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Rebbi, I'd have no worries about power and your 300b amp. If those Tektons were efficient enough for you then I'd think you'd be surprised. Tekton seems to overstate their efficiency specs. I've noticed that they'll spec some of the Lore models to the spec of the Eminence driver, not taking into account that there is a tweeter and a crossover in the equation. I know that Stereophile measured a Tekton and it was a little over 6 decibels less than stated.
CanadaRob is happy with his two watt amp on his Alnicos and I'm figuring that I'll end up with some in the future and I plan on running them with my 2 watts as well.
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Rebbi,
I have the no longer made 7" alnicos in an XRS cab. Same sensitivity as the 6" alnicos. The lowest I've run is 5wpc from a SEP amp with 6V6 power tubes. Definitely enough power for me.
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Since my ANK Kit 1 is an integrated amp, I'd be using Speaker Level connections, too. I think that your earlier comments about the flexibility of a sub/sat system with regard to placement is spot on. I have a sneaking suspicion that floor standing speakers just won't work in my room because it's a shared space (doubles as a guest bedroom) and I have limited leeway in placement. I really can't get the back of any speaker much further than 2 feet off the front wall. I now think this may be why, in my room, the Tekton Lore Reference that I borrowed, in spite of all its appealing qualities, seemed to image a little vaguely no matter what I did. So although I've never used a sub before, maybe it really is the way to go. I only wish I could afford your setup of Alnico's + sub. :|
I'd probably be going with 3i or Super 7 + sub.
rebbi,
The Alnico's may be more than you need for your room size. The Alnico's are pretty big monitors and may need a little more breathing room off the front wall than your room / set-up can provide. Canada Rob provided me with good pre-purchase advice, perhaps he can comment on your 11 x 16 x 8 room size? If it were me I think I would lean toward the 3i or Super 7. The Super 7 may provide a lot more Bass than you think in your smaller room.
I've read a lot of reviews from Omega owners that have or had a number of different Omega speakers and they tend to love them all. I get the sense from owners that each speaker is special in it's own way. If I were on a budget with your room size I think I would go with the Super 7 to start, with the option to add one of the Omega subs down the road if you think you need a bit more punch on the low end.
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DBC,
Thanks a lot for the advice!
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Happy to share that I am joining the ranks of Omega owners. :banana piano:
Today I sent payment to member Sense63 for his ebony Alnico 7 monitors! These are like the drivers in the Super 7 Monitor and Super 7 XRS, except that they have an alnico motor. The cabinet, as I understand it, is the same as the Alnico Hemp Monitor. :drool:
I am so excited to be getting Omega's and hearing what all the fuss is about. :lol:
I want to thank member Ultralight for tipping me off that Sense63 wanted to move up the Omega line to the Alnico XRS and was looking to sell his monitors. I want to thank Sense63 for being such an awesome trading partner. I want to thank all of you for your patience with my endless questions in this endless thread, and to Canada Rob for answering my PM's. :duh: :duh: :deadhorse:
Last but not least, kudos to Louis, who is such a gentleman and a straight shooter and has been a joy to talk to! :thumb:
Yay!
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Congrats. Your research and buying decision will pay off big time... you're gonna love the sound of Omega. Louis does it right.
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Congrats. Your research and buying decision will pay off big time... you're gonna love the sound of Omega. Louis does it right.
Thanks, FireGuy, I'm stoked. :hyper:
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Very happy to see this work out for all three of you. Louis has been kind enough to take my calls and I am glad to be able to add a bit of value to his endeavors. :D
UL
Happy to share that I am joining the ranks of Omega owners. :banana piano:
Today I sent payment to member Sense63 for his ebony Alnico 7 monitors! These are like the drivers in the Super 7 Monitor and Super 7 XRS, except that they have an alnico motor. The cabinet, as I understand it, is the same as the Alnico Hemp Monitor. :drool:
I am so excited to be getting Omega's and hearing what all the fuss is about. :lol:
I want to thank member Ultralight for tipping me off that Sense63 wanted to move up the Omega line to the Alnico XRS and was looking to sell his monitors. I want to thank Sense63 for being such an awesome trading partner. I want to thank all of you for your patience with my endless questions in this endless thread, and to Canada Rob for answering my PM's. :duh: :duh: :deadhorse:
Last but not least, kudos to Louis, who is such a gentleman and a straight shooter and has been a joy to talk to! :thumb:
Yay!
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On another note, can someone tell me what the recommended positioning and height is for Omega's? Are your ears supposed to be level with the center of the driver? I'm trying to figure out what kind of stand I'm going to need.
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On another note, can someone tell me what the recommended positioning and height is for Omega's? Are your ears supposed to be level with the center of the driver? I'm trying to figure out what kind of stand I'm going to need.
I use 20" high stands including spikes with my Alnico Monitors.
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I use 20" high stands including spikes with my Alnico Monitors.
Where abouts does that put the driver in relation to seating position? Ear level with the dustcap/whizzer, a little higher or lower, etc.?
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I think this a good question to address, thanks.
I currently have XRS cabs and they are slightly below ear level with a tilt back. Typically monitors are not tilted back. The ones that I will be getting will be monitors on top of midbass cabs and the top of the monitors will be right at 36". I'm thinking that will put the center of the drivers at just about ear level.
Louis has said that the tilt seems to lift and expand the soundstage. Would it be desirable to tilt monitors? If so, I would be getting stands that are a couple of inches shorter so they could be tilted a bit. (I won't have that option with my configuration though.)
......Peter
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Peter,
Which speakers are you getting?
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Peter,
Which speakers are you getting?
Here they are in detail:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134489.0
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Here they are in detail:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134489.0
Holy cow! :rock: :rock:
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I think this a good question to address, thanks.
I currently have XRS cabs and they are slightly below ear level with a tilt back. Typically monitors are not tilted back. The ones that I will be getting will be monitors on top of midbass cabs and the top of the monitors will be right at 36". I'm thinking that will put the center of the drivers at just about ear level.
Louis has said that the tilt seems to lift and expand the soundstage. Would it be desirable to tilt monitors? If so, I would be getting stands that are a couple of inches shorter so they could be tilted a bit. (I won't have that option with my configuration though.)
......Peter
I'm using TransDeco 24" Stands for my Super 5's and pretty much at ear level. Imaging and staging are spot on. Interesting consideration to have these tilted similar to the Super 3XRS config. Can't say I'm fully on board unless I can confidently address the stability issue. Just imagining having them positioned as such with the current top plate has me out of my happy place.
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I think standard Alnico Monitors would work fine tilted since they are so deep. The lighter and shallower speakers are, the less stable. But it wouldn't be difficult to put something at the back of the plates that the monitors could rest against if necessary.
I was skeptical about the tilt with my current Super 7 XRS (original version). They are only something like 14" wide and 9" deep, but are very stable with some tilt.
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Where abouts does that put the driver in relation to seating position? Ear level with the dustcap/whizzer, a little higher or lower, etc.?
The center of my driver is 34.5" off the floor. I listen in a very nice, super comfy folding lawn chair with nothing in that chair to reflect sound.
If I sit in a relaxed position, my ears are at about the same height as the center of the drivers. For me, the sound is sublime.
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The center of my driver is 34.5" off the floor. I listen in a very nice, super comfy folding lawn chair with nothing in that chair to reflect sound.
If I sit in a relaxed position, my ears are at about the same height as the center of the drivers. For me, the sound is sublime.
It will be interesting to see how my Alnico 7 monitors end up being positioned. Louis said that every room is different and I should experiment. He likes the speakers around 8 feet apart, suggesting starting nearer the front wall and moving forward to dial them in. As for height, I sit in a guest bedroom on a daybed to listen to music, so my seating height is atypically tall: my ears are about 40" off the floor. This is why I'm not rushing to get rid of my 24" stands just yet. Sense63 is sending me his 16" stands along with the monitors, too. I'll assume I'll be in tweak-the-position mode for some time! :lol:
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I'm home now and measured. The center of my 7 XRS' drivers are 30" off the floor. The tilt back points them more towards ear level.
.......Peter
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My Alnico 7 minutes monitors shipped today!
Woo-hoo! I should have them by late this week.
Can't wait to set them up and get down to some listening. :D
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WOW!!! I can't believe rebbi is selling the Omegas in the same week he got them.
I have been watching this thread since the beginning waiting to hear the results.
Actually was kind of excited for him.
Sorry Omega fans...
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Same week?!
He said he was expecting to receive them late this week.
So....he hasn't listened to them for more than a few hours I'm guessing. :scratch:
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Sometimes a very good speaker just doesn't work in a room. Especially single driver types. When I moved cross country my Horn Shoppe Horns wouldn't work in my living room, no matter which tricks I tried. My wife claimed them for her office, and they work fine there.
This might be a good opportunity for someone who wants to move up the Omega line.
steve
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Maybe someone can help me out with an answer to this (and I am asking these questions in all sincerity):
1) What would RS 7 drivers that still needed break in time sound like? How would you know they needed more time?
2) The previous owner told me he'd put 200 hours on them. After boxing and shipping and unboxing, how much additional play time (if any) would you anticipate the driver to need to get back to pre-shipping, fully settled condition?
Thank you!
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My thought is to give it a week. And play around w place ment. i heard dramatic differences with some effort on a pair similar to yours. The difference was dramatic - almost sounded like 2 different speakers.
And what amp do you have?
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And what amp do you have?
Audio Note Kits "Kit 1" 300B SET (http://ankaudiokits.com/Kit1-2014-300B-Integrated-Power-Tube-Amplifier.html).
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Hi Rebbi,
Sorry to hear this.
Can you describe what you are hearing that you don't like about your speakers? With your ANK 300B, they should be a good match.
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Hi Rebbi,
Sorry to hear this.
Can you describe what you are hearing that you don't like about your speakers? With your ANK 300B, they should be a good match.
Rob,
Sending you a PM about this.
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My thought is to give it a week. And play around w place ment. i heard dramatic differences with some effort on soeajers. And what amp do you have?
+1 Especially in a case like this. I assume rebbi may have moved from more conventional speakers to the Omegas. Additionally, I think we have a tendency to get used to our systems over time, which become our reference. Nothing will change a system more than changing speakers. So any sudden dramatic change may be perceived as bad, particularly if the system was "tuned" for the previous speakers. There's a mix of things that could be going on, but one should certainly give new speakers at least a solid 1 week trial with plenty of listening and repositioning (as necessary), even if initial judgement was negative. If anything, one will gain real experience which makes the point of trying something different worthwhile.
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+1 Especially in a case like this. I assume rebbi may have moved from more conventional speakers to the Omegas. Additionally, I think we have a tendency to get used to our systems over time, which become our reference. Nothing will change a system more than changing speakers. So any sudden dramatic change may be perceived as bad, particularly if the system was "tuned" for the previous speakers. There's a mix of things that could be going on, but one should certainly give new speakers at least a solid 1 week trial with plenty of listening and repositioning (as necessary), even if initial judgement was negative. If anything, one will gain real experience which makes the point of trying something different worthwhile.
I am open to keeping them if I can get the issues that I have been having resolved. I have played around a lot with positioning and will continue to do so. And right now I have them on the carpet, facing each other, with a bunch of heavy blankets thrown over them, playing music with a lot of low-end. I'm going to let them do this for the next 24 hours or so and then reassess.
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Sometimes a very good speaker just doesn't work in a room. Especially single driver types. When I moved cross country my Horn Shoppe Horns wouldn't work in my living room, no matter which tricks I tried. My wife claimed them for her office, and they work fine there.
This might be a good opportunity for someone who wants to move up the Omega line.
steve
This is not the case at all. The Horn Shoppe Horns are corner horns are as such are very sensitive to positioning, the Omegas are bass reflex and do not suffer the same issues as the Horn Shoppe speakers. Further, Omegas have narrowing dispersion as the frequency increases, as do all single driver speakers, making 1st reflection issues less of a problem than with cone 'n' dome speakers. This makes bass reflex single driver speakers more forgiving on positing than your average speaker.
rebbi, yes they do need break in after shipping... Since you won't post your issues it's hard for anyone to give advice on how to resolve them or if that's just the character of the speakers and you'd be better off looking at a different type of speaker.
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I am open to keeping them if I can get the issues that I have been having resolved. I have played around a lot with positioning and will continue to do so. And right now I have them on the carpet, facing each other, with a bunch of heavy blankets thrown over them, playing music with a lot of low-end. I'm going to let them do this for the next 24 hours or so and then reassess.
Hi Rebbi,
You have always been polite and tactful on this forum and if len066 had not innocently mentioned it, I believe you would have kept it hush and gone away quietly. We don't want you to go away, but rather help you sort it out if we can. What you described to me in your PM is not at all how those speakers should sound.
As far as playing them I suggest you set them up conventionally on their stands without blankets and play music with a good amount of bass and percussion at medium volume.
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rebbi, yes they do need break in after shipping... Since you won't post your issues it's hard for anyone to give advice on how to resolve them or if that's just the character of the speakers and you'd be better off looking at a different type of speaker.
Hi, Dave,
I'm not trying to be coy or obtuse! My reason for not posting my specific concerns is that the posts in these forums have a long shelf life; people will refer to them for years, and I don't want to post anything that might dissuade someone down the road from trying Omega. Whether or not I end up keeping mine, Louis is a total gentleman and the speakers are gorgeous and superbly crafted.
He has offered to work with me to solve this, and I'll see how I feel about that after the weekend!
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rebbi, I understand and it's best to err on the side of discretion :thumb: But I don't think there is any issues to hide or anything that could be really negative here. You could have drivers damaged in packing or shipping, this is pretty common. Or a bad matchup with other gear or maybe you just don't like them. In any case it's not a big deal. Good luck getting it all sorted out though, if you get those speakers working as-intended I seriously doubt you'll be disappointed.
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Rebbi,
I finally did get to audition an Omega. It took me a while to figure out how to make it sing. At first, it really did not work for me but after I figured it out, the speakers were truly excellent. My thought is that you work at it for a few weeks. You can always sell in a couple of weeks without change in value.
UL
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Ultralight, Could you explain in greater detail your experience auditioning the Omegas. Which model did you listen to ? What did you hear that you did not like? How did you experiment to remedy the problems you heard? Thanks
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Hi, Gang,
I'm happy to report that, rather than selling my RS7 Alnico Monitors, I'm going to send them back to Louis and trade up to a brand new pair of Super Alnico Hemps in ebony veneer! :thumb:
Louis is (happily) having an atypically busy summer, so it'll probably take about a month for me to take delivery.
I have every reason to believe that I will be beyond happy with the Super Alnico Hemp's and I am really excited to have made this choice.
Thanks to all of you and I'll keep you posted.
:D
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Now you're talkin'!!!
I like my Alnico monitors so much I was thinking of moving up to the Super Alnico XLS but I think I'll stick with what i have and seriously consider the deepOmega12 sub. Maybe after the sub I should think about some Super 3i Monitors for variety.
Really enjoying the omega sound at this time.
Reb, I think you will thoroughly dig the Alnico Monitor. Way to go!
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Now you're talkin'!!!
I like my Alnico monitors so much I was thinking of moving up to the Super Alnico XLS but I think I'll stick with what i have and seriously consider the deepOmega12 sub. Maybe after the sub I should think about some Super 3i Monitors for variety.
Really enjoying the omega sound at this time.
Reb, I think you will thoroughly dig the Alnico Monitor. Way to go!
Hey, thank you for good vibes. :D
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Okay, I spoke with Louis this afternoon. My Super Alnico monitors in zebra wood should be shipping this coming Friday or next Monday. :banana piano: :hyper:
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v
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Excelent news, rebbi :D! Be patient as they'll need lots of break-in time and make sure to tell us about your findings. Just remember to take some pictures as well (there's a thread for that as well).
Yes, been thinking about that picture thread, too. :icon_lol:
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My Super Alnico Monitors are in transit and supposed to be delivered tomorrow! :hyper: :dance:
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Congratulations....let us know how they sound.
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Congratulations....let us know how they sound.
For sure! :D